Bruh, french guys?
If only the libertarians knew their dreamland already existed
They’re 50 years too late though.
That’s such a weird situation because I do agree with the criticism of the age of consent being different for gay acts vs straight ones, but also 15’s a bit young there and they think it’s too high. Yikes.
16 is pretty normal in both the US and Europe
That depends on the state. The larger states tend to trend towards older.
California, ~39 million. 18 Texas, ~30 million. 17 Florida, ~23 million. 18 NY, ~20 million. 18
Pennsylvania at about 13 million is the first in population to see 16…
over 1/3rd of the country is represented in the top 4 states there… and all would say that 16 is not normal…
According to wikipedia 31 states in the US put age of consent at 16.
And in Europe Wikipedia says “only four countries, Cyprus (17), the Republic of Ireland (17), Turkey (18), and the Vatican City (18), set an age of consent higher than 16.”. Which would account for more than 600 million people.
From a western point of view it’s pretty normal. You’ll still get weird look if you’re 20+ and dating a 16 year old, but that’s besides the point we’re arguing.
I understand… I’m making the point that it’s not “that” normal for US. I don’t know about the EU in this context as I never looked.
those 31 states account for less than 45% of the USA…
the numbers come out to something like this…
16: 44.9%
17: 24.5%
18: 30.6%The number is certainly much closer to 17 years old than 16 as the “normal” here.
Yeah I understand that and I’m ok with it (though I prefer 18 with Romeo and Juliet laws), but 15 feels like they inched too far
That gives a whole new meaning to the expression 🤢 Fr*nch “people” 🤮
Thanks for lumping me and my contemporaries with a small subset of barely famous old weirdos who mostly died before we were even born, I guess
Assholes will get big dogs, abuse ignore and isolate them, then act surprised when they act unpredictably.
Breed specific legislation isn’t the answer. The answer is for mandatory training courses predating dog ownership. All dog ownership too. Little dogs can be assholes too.
Breed specific legislation isn’t the answer.
When 1 breed is per capita significantly higher represented… yes it is.
Little dogs can be assholes too.
Little dogs can’t kill you.
If we breed a dog to be the size of a hippo… Is that still okay to have? Even if it’s only 6x as dangerous as the next breed?
The CDC and humane society disagree with you, you know, based on expert opinion. You’re not an expert, so I’ll ignore your comment.
Edit: I’ll also add the American Veterinary Medical Association, the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, the Animal Behavior Society, the National Animal Care and Control Association, etc. also oppose breed specific legislation.
So, yeah I’ll take their opinion over some silly comment on the internet.
While I’m on the side of pitbulls, don’t go waving around an appeal to authority fallacy like that.
Point of order: That’s not an appeal to authority. The other user was pointing out organizations that have actual expertise in the field. “Appeal to authority” is if they said “Bill Gates said pitbulls are fine”
He’s an authority figure, but not expertise in the matter.
Whereas the CDC, the humane society, the American veterinary association etc etc are actually experts in at least some part of the argument.
I’m not appealing to an irrelevant authority. I’m appealing to experts on the matter. I personally don’t have the time nor interest to do all the research myself, so trusting their expert opinion is what I’ll have to do. I hope you’ll do the same, as you do in other areas of your life.
I think as normal ass individuals without all the time in the world to do our own research on every topic, it’s okay to trust an authority that is at least trying to follow the scientific method.
I don’t know why on the subject of dog breeds everyone thinks their own anecdotes and personal opinions should some how win out…. And I know people will try to wave around some studies with stats pulled from newspaper articles, but the fact is the CDC, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, Association of Professional Dog Trainers, American Veterinary Medical Association, and Humane society have access to those studies too and came to a different conclusion: they oppose BSL.
And you know for sure they’re not serving their own interest?
Imagine a statistics agency said any particular human race was more dangerous.
I don’t follow… basically you’re making an argument never to trust experts, which is absurd and dangerous. If we learned anything from Covid and the Trump years, it’s that “doing your own research,” misinformation and distrust of experts are real issues that can cause serious damage to a society. I hope you’re not fanning the flames here.
Oh? Feel free to drop a link proving me wrong then since they’ve weighed in on the matter. In the meantime…
Feel free to peruse here… including medical studies like https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/level-1-trauma-center-studies-dog-bite-injuries-2011-2022.pdf as an example showing that pit bulls historically occur more often and cause SIGNIFICANTLY more damage.
But right… The CDC and humane society disagree with me!
CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7236a6.htm Which doesn’t break out by breed. But the numbers line up with other sources that HAVE broken out the breed. Showing that it’s 71% during this time period pitbull.
And I couldn’t give a fuck what the humane society says. They’re not statisticians nor do they have they ever published any statistics on attacks. Feel free to put up though. I’ll wait patiently.
So I’m not the other user but I’ll go ahead and help you out.
AVMA quick summary of all the problems with trying to blame a set of breeds: https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/literature-reviews/dog-bite-risk-and-prevention-role-breed
Study that shows breed doesn’t impact behavior in any substantial way: https://www.aaas.org/news/dogs-breed-doesnt-determine-its-behavior#:~:text=According to the findings%2C breed,exclusive to any one breed. Basically a dog is a dog is a dog and the main indicator of how a dog is going to act is how it was raised.
Study shows that BSL doesn’t work: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0208393
Meaning if you remove pitbulls and other “aggressive” dogs, people still end up in the hospital at the same rate from dog bites.
All this points to the simple fact that if you give an asshole a dog, that dog will be dangerous.
Also as an aside any claim to “per capita” with regards to dogs is baseless. There has not ever been a dog census nor would we reasonably be able to do one, so we can’t make any claims about “this breed has a higher percentage of biters” or anything to that effect.
Also as an aside any claim to “per capita” with regards to dogs is baseless. There has not ever been a dog census nor would we reasonably be able to do one, so we can’t make any claims about “this breed has a higher percentage of biters” or anything to that effect.
Are you shitting me? https://financesonline.com/number-of-dogs-in-the-us/
You don’t need to have a census to have a pretty damn good idea of how many there are. And you all keep telling me that I’m disingenuous.
This is a persons representation of a study. Not the study. but it links to here (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abk0639) So if breed has nothing to do with anything. How come there’s qualities organized by breed by the study? You can’t claim that behaviors aren’t affected by breed, then show me a study that shows a bunch of behaviors organized by breed. And you all keep telling me that I’m disingenuous.
Study shows that BSL doesn’t work: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0208393
Except this misses one big premise… Amount of cases can be exactly the same, but severity of each case can go down severely. Also amount of cases can be the same, but have less fatalities! Almost like your link and my link can co-exist.https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/level-1-trauma-center-studies-dog-bite-injuries-2011-2022.pdf and no offense, but I’m okay with a world where there’s less harm and death done.
Okay, because I saw you’re a fan of banpitbull subreddit.
I need to ask a very simple question. Do you care about actual safety, or do you just want pitbulls banned? Like what is your goal?
Because all science in the last 5 years states people, not pitbulls, are the problem. Globally. That’s the issue.
If you actually want “less harm and death done” then you need to listen to the scientific experts and stop pushing for BSL, and instead push for things that move towards the goal of less harm and death.
But okay let’s address the rest now
Are you shitting me? https://financesonline.com/number-of-dogs-in-the-us/
You don’t need to have a census to have a pretty damn good idea of how many there are. And you all keep telling me that I’m disingenuous.
You say that and then the link you provided did not give me a very good idea about per capita of the breeds… I have no idea how many of any breed there are.
This is a persons representation of a study. Not the study. but it links to here (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abk0639) So if breed has nothing to do with anything. How come there’s qualities organized by breed by the study? You can’t claim that behaviors aren’t affected by breed, then show me a study that shows a bunch of behaviors organized by breed. And you all keep telling me that I’m disingenuous.
You are being disingenuous… Less than 9% difference across all breeds. A dog is a dog is a dog. Some howl, some don’t. Some are more active. A dog is a dog is a dog.
Except this misses one big premise… Amount of cases can be exactly the same, but severity of each case can go down severely. Also amount of cases can be the same, but have less fatalities!
Well it was counting hospitalizations… So it’s safe to say we’re only talking about severe ones…
I need to ask a very simple question. Do you care about actual safety, or do you just want pitbulls banned? Like what is your goal?
Oh I would be okay with all large breeds (let’s say over 50lbs. as being a start) being required licensing. But considering the specific damage caused by pitbulls I would love to see them go first if there’s got to be a first. And “banned” in my case would be force spay/neuter and legalize breeding of them. I’m not a monster that wants to see a witch hunt to murder all currently existing pit bulls. I just want to see a breed that was bred for causing as much damage as possible in a fight not… Other large dogs being kept in a city apartment should also be illegalized as well IMO… but other breeds don’t have the predilection to bite the way pit bulls do.
You say that and then the link you provided did not give me a very good idea about per capita of the breeds… I have no idea how many of any breed there are.
Because I was specifically addressing your “census” comment. I have no issue providing more information to a point if required. There’s a few ways to infer population stats… https://www.pitbullinfo.org/pit-bulls-population.html has some for instance (DNA sites or veterinary data). Or you can grab stats from any number of dog rescues/pounds/etc… These stats won’t ever be perfect singularly. But certainly good enough.
You are being disingenuous… Less than 9% difference across all breeds. A dog is a dog is a dog. Some howl, some don’t. Some are more active. A dog is a dog is a dog.
So in your mind… pitbulls are fine because there’s only a 9% difference in breeds even though they make up 71% of all dog related deaths since 2011? You realize this isn’t just a case of strictly bite numbers. You even pointed it out. Even if pitbulls are LESS likely to bite, but each instance of a bite causes significantly more damage that causes hospitalization/death… This is STILL A PROBLEM. I’d still like to point out that your own source STILL managed to organize the breeds even though it’s only “9%”…
Well it was counting hospitalizations… So it’s safe to say we’re only talking about severe ones…
So instead of addressing the article I posted you ignore it? Again?
I’m not going to get into it with you, but I would recommend reading a book called “Pitbull: Battle over an American Icon” by Brownen Dickey. She does have an entire section on dogsbite.org.
dogsbite.org is run by a Colleen Lynn. Colleen’s only real experience with the matter is that she successfully sued someone over a dog bite. She has no statistics or veterinary credentials, yet on her page, she tries to cite studies from the experts that do in order to appear more reputable… kind of like you’re doing. However, she draws very different conclusions than those experts indicating she’s cherry-picking the data to suit her own biases… kind of like you’re doing.
I’m sorry but when the CDC, American Veterinary Medical Association, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, Association of Professional Dog Trainers, etc, etc all draw different conclusions and oppose breed-specific legislation, it’s hard to give much weight to a site like dogsbite.org, who’s owner has a bias based on her personal experience and has financially benefited from the dog bite issue in the courts.
If you want more, go ahead and read the book, but that’s it from me. Have a nice day, you won’t hear from me again on the matter.
CDC, American Veterinary Medical Association, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, Association of Professional Dog Trainers
Then show me one from any of these sources that prove that pitbulls are not per-capita the top of the list in any category.
dogsbite.org is run by a Colleen Lynn.
Couldn’t care less… It was hosting the paper I was interested in showing. Have you read it? https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/level-1-trauma-center-studies-dog-bite-injuries-2011-2022.pdf
So out of all of these experts and studies… how many of these are wrong? Why do ALL of these studies continue to find the same information then if supposedly the sources you put trust in have proven otherwise? Also I’ve yet to see ANY data from any of your supposed sources here… from anyone… Nobody of the 3-4 of you saying that pit bulls are perfectly fine animals the CDC says so… has linked me anything showing that they say that.
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Little dogs can’t kill you
Even a little dog can bite you right in the throat, breaking your carotid artery so you to bleed to death. Don’t underestimate the strength of their bite just because they are smaller than a cat.
Even a little dog can bite you right in the throat
If a little dog can jump ~5.5 foot to reach my throat, then it deserves the kill. But this is very much not represented by the statistics at all. Little dogs simply don’t kill people. I looked at the stats a bunch of months ago before the reddit exodus… It’s like one “little dog breed” every 4-5 years (which is representative of a fraction of a fraction of a percent)… where 65+% of all dog related deaths are from a pit bull breed.
I knew someone who had a badly behaved dog, it attacked their partner so they put it down.
A few weeks later “I’m getting another one and I’m going to train it myself” Meaning they just won’t train it, lost their shit when someone called them out as a dog killer. People don’t deserve animals, people suck.
A minute of silence for all the people killed by asshole chihuahuas…
how can you get killed by a chihuahua? it nibbles away your toe and you get an infection?!
They think that they’re making a clever point. Of course larger dogs are inherently more dangerous than tiny dogs. No one is disputing that.
But to advocate for the complete wiping out of an entire breed versus mandatory training classes for owners is an insane answer.
Make “dangerous breeds” more difficult to get, sure. I agree with that. But I can NOT with the “wipe out all pitbull/rotties/dobermans/GSDs/etc”
Wiping out? Why not just forbid malicious breeding goals, like aggression, bite force and of course torture / unhealthy breeding?
Yeah, for real. Pitbulls are the common target because they’re the “vicious dog”. It’s a self-fullfilling prophecy. Talk about how pitbulls are vicious man-killers, people who want vicious man-killers buy them and train them to be vicious man-killers, pitbulls become vicious man-killers. Meanwhile, the people who want a family dog don’t get pitbulls because, well, they’re “vicious man-killers”. The result is that statistics get skewed in favor of the “vicious man-killer” status, leading to people seeing the breed as nothing more than vicious man-killers.
That combined with the pseudoscience that was spewed by Merritt Clifton, that everyone still quotes today, and you’ve got yourself some statistical issues.
People who get pit bulls as “family dogs” have the same issue.
https://winknews.com/2023/07/06/north-port-6-year-old-dies-dog-bite/
I never thought about that
Behavior is influenced by genetics as well as environment. Certain individual animals are more genetically predisposed towards violence than others. Certain breeds of particular species tend to have more of these individuals than others. So, it is possible to have a breed that is violent in that: if you take a random sample of that breed where the individuals are subjected to an identical rearing process more of those individuals will be more violent than average than the average breed has individuals who are more violent than average. (I realize that sentence is probably difficult to digest, but I’m not going to spend 20 more minutes working on this).
Given the data that we have on pit bulls, I think they’re a violent breed. Not all pit bulls are violent, but a pit bull is more likely to be violent than a golden retriever when the two are raised in the same environment.
But you can train a dog to not act on their instinctual prey drive. Pitbulls are way more likely to be abused than golden retrievers so I don’t see how your point is relevant. Why are pitbulls the problem instead of shitty dog owners?
Edit: you can be damn sure if a golden retriever or any dog grew up the way violent pitbulls grow up, they would be just as violent. Golden retrievers are easier to train though, I’ll give you that.
Using statistics without context is not right. Especially when talking about people or other living things that have unique personalities and life experiences.
I agree from both an animal welfare and public safety perspective that we need far stricter laws and regulations on dog ownership in general. But also I also think that some breeds are inherently more dangerous than others. For the American Bully XL in particular, we are talking a new pitbull-adjacent breed which has been bred for both aggression, intimidation and maximum muscle mass, both to skirt past existing legislation that bans American Pit Bulls, but also because all these traits appeal to the kind of irresponsible owners that just want an attack dog that looks 'aard as fuck.
We’re also deluding ourselves when we claim that a dog bred to resemble the canine equivalent of Brock Lesnar is a nanny dog and wouldn’t harm a fly, when in actuality losing control of a 145 lb jacked beast has even led to grown adults being mauled to death.
The only dogs to ever bite me are chihuahuas, and I worked as a vet assistant for years.
Same
And a license to have a dog and a rebate for a year or more of medical care for them, for getting them spayed/neutered
When big dog acts out: “ahh that breed is aggressive! 😡”
When abused purse dogs act out (more frequently and more viciously): “oh isnt he just adorable 🥺”
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C’mon that’s not fair. Conservatives would always rather have their kids dead than literate. It’s supposed to be a hard choice for them.
How about. Wear a rainbow Speedo or drink bud light.
Now there’s a right wing conundrum.
What makes you think they aren’t wearing the speedo already? It has to be something others will publicly see and shame them for.
You make a compelling argument.
That kid’s getting fucked up either way.
The pitbull, obviously.
You misspelled Ultra late term abortion machine
You misspelled humans
I would trust the pitbull. Besides, they’re not as bad as people make them out to be.
Now you’ve triggered Lemmy’s hate of pitbulls. Be prepared for “they should all be put down” and “they’re bred to be vicious, you can’t undo that” comment barrage.
I wish you luck.
Thank you. And honestly, anyone who thinks that doesn’t deserve a very special picture.
Rene Descarte was a drunken fart “I drink therefore I am”
I would definitely choose a french philosopher. I’m sure there are many french philosophers who would make good babysitters
Edit: You know there are more french philosophers out there then just old dead guys? There are many philosophers who are Frech still living today
Should we tell him?
Idgf if you call me a pedophile but they’re right with their point that the AOC is too high. Having a multiple-stage system like many advanced countries do, like Germany, where it begins with 14, loosens up with 16 and fully at 18 is good. That’s because it acknowledges the development of humans. Development is a process. Humans in reality are not a simplistic lifeform from a philosophical thought experiment, thinking that it should be illegal before one turns 18 and immediately legal a second thereafter is just nonsensical to me. It doesn’t cut off like that, there’s no such hard barrier or edge where it suddenly turns from morally bad to not morally bad.
I think that if the age of consent is gradual, the age difference allowed should too.
First scenario, two 15 year olds decide to start their sexual life together. They’re fully informed. Nobody is taking advantage. It’s very different to a second scenario where a 17 year old is dating a 36 year old.
It’s funny because the problem is usually described with terms these specific French philosophers used: power dynamics. It is too unbalanced. The adult has way more power than the teenager and that’s not healthy, it can even be dangerous.
I would argue that we should be careful with age differences until our early-mid twenties, even if the law gives us a free pass from our 18th birthday. But, anyway, yeah, in the second scenario the teenager is older than the first ones, so we’d assume that if the first ones were okay the second too, but the age difference matters IMHO.
Pitbull owner: He IS a philosopher and a big ol sweetie
Pitbull is chewing on a person’s arm.
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The pit bull groups of dogs, as breeds, are not the nanny-dogs that people claim they were. They are mastiffs; they were intended to guard, and were used for hunting and war. You can train the shit out of them, and they can still revert to breed characteristics.
A study in the US concluded that greater than 60% of all fatal dog attacks in the US were from pit bulls or Rottweilers, but those two groups don’t make up nearly 60% of all dogs in the US. These simply aren’t breeds that should be left alone with children.
At least the dog will just rip their body to shreds and not their soul.
It depends on who Princess’s owner is. Lemmy’s hate for Pitbulls is so fucking idiotic.
Don’t kid yourself a lot of people outside the internet doesn’t have mucho love for the kidprocessor 3000 nany edition.
What?
Don´t get me wrong, it’s humans in the first place who make dogs dangerous and hating any breed is stupid. People who do that have a one sided view. However, let’s be real, you have a one sided view too, just a positive one. The bad name of certain breeds has reasons, like the fact that they have been bred to fight and to max out biting power and to have an instinct to not let go when biting. I know Pitbulls are not the breed with the highest bite force but they are still in the top 10.
Today’s pit bull is a descendant of the original English bull-baiting dog—a dog that was bred to bite and hold bulls, bears and other large animals around the face and head.
Some pit bulls were selected and bred for their fighting ability.
Source: https://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-policy-and-position-statements/position-statement-pit-bulls
No matter how sweet your individual Pitbull might be after a loving upbringing, many years of breeding with such goals definitely still affect the gene pool and like it or not, instinctive behavior, especially in stressful situations. Then there is the problem of bad people who get dogs as weapons and abuse them, turning them aggressive.
You have to be positive while wading through shit if you don’t want to drown. I understand everything you said, but your first sentence is all I’m trying to get across. It’s shitty fucking people, not dogs.
Edit: To your main point you were trying to get across to me; dogs can be trained to not act on their aggressive instincts like prey drive. So I still don’t see how an aggressive dog wouldn’t be it’s owners fault.
Nice that we agree that it´s generally always the owners fault if something goes wrong but it´s also a fact that different dog breeds have different aggression potentials and thereby are more or less difficult to train and control. So choosing a dog breed that is not more aggressive than necessary is also part of the owners responsibility. I for myself would never choose a breed that has been bred to fight, bite and not let go, as a family dog. Instead I would choose a Bernese for example, because they have been bred into the opposite direction, to protect and not to fight, to bark and not to bite, which results in a very calm and gentle general behaviour.
💯. If you’re a shitty trainer you should get a golden retriever instead of a Pit. But there are people who know what they’re doing and those people have the sweetest dogs you could ever meet and they happen to be pits. Therefore all the hate for one specific breed is idiotic, unfair and should be directed towards people not innocent creatures that we basically created. They are our responsibility.
Therefore all the hate for one specific breed is idiotic, unfair and should be directed towards people not innocent creatures that we basically created.
That is exactly what I wrote earlier, nice that we agree in this point.
If you’re a shitty trainer you should get a golden retriever instead of a Pit.
Hard disagree here, shitty trainers should not get any dog imo.
Alright, it felt like you were trying to disagree with me even though what I said in the first place was it depends on the dogs owner. But I might have just been defensive because I’m used to my takes being challenged on Lemmy. But I see now that you were just expanding on what I already said. Cheers
I was trying to add a more differentiated perspective.
In an ideal world yes, they shouldn’t get any dog. But they will, so getting a Pit is significantly more dangerous than a golden because they are much easier to train.
True but I would still prefer to be attacked by a lapdog instead of a medium sized dog, just not while it´s sitting in my lap ;)
Honestly if you hate on a breed or really anything because that’s the popular thing to do odds are you’re probably a cunt.
It’s just another form of “acceptable” racism. I was trying to express that to someone last week but they were so hung up on the fact that racism is for humans so it’s not possible to use that word about animals and different dogs were bred for different things so that makes the bigotry “okay”
One of the reasons english and probably most languages are so beautiful is because you can have an imagination about it and say things that have never been said but people will still understand what you meant. Unless they’re a cunt.
pointing out ‘genetic differences’ in dog breeds: 👍
in humans: 👎
The internet loves to hate on pitbulls
It’s a combination of lack of education on the subject while being confident in what they do know. That’s pretty much every wrong opinion though.
It’s mostly because of the child munching I’d say
And the dogs that killed children had responsible owners?
I’m sure plenty of golden retrievers don’t have responsible owners, yet I don’t really hear of children mauled by them on the regular.
Lol nice scouring job 😂 now go ahead and tell me with a straight face it’s the same frequency and severity with pitbulls
French philosopher are the founders of most of modern liberal movement in USA… And woke culture… So…
Someone’s read neither :/
French philosophy is also responsible for our country’s system of government. Montisquieu argued for separation of powers, natural (inalienable) rights and the right to revolution comes from Locke, the social contract with individual liberties comes from Rousseau. Our constitution is a bunch of French philosophy shoved together into a very (for the time) unique Enlightenment-based government.
true
