Assholes will get big dogs, abuse ignore and isolate them, then act surprised when they act unpredictably.
Breed specific legislation isn’t the answer. The answer is for mandatory training courses predating dog ownership. All dog ownership too. Little dogs can be assholes too.
The CDC and humane society disagree with you, you know, based on expert opinion. You’re not an expert, so I’ll ignore your comment.
Edit: I’ll also add the American Veterinary Medical Association, the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, the Animal Behavior Society, the National Animal Care and Control Association, etc. also oppose breed specific legislation.
So, yeah I’ll take their opinion over some silly comment on the internet.
Point of order: That’s not an appeal to authority. The other user was pointing out organizations that have actual expertise in the field. “Appeal to authority” is if they said “Bill Gates said pitbulls are fine”
He’s an authority figure, but not expertise in the matter.
Whereas the CDC, the humane society, the American veterinary association etc etc are actually experts in at least some part of the argument.
I’m not appealing to an irrelevant authority. I’m appealing to experts on the matter. I personally don’t have the time nor interest to do all the research myself, so trusting their expert opinion is what I’ll have to do. I hope you’ll do the same, as you do in other areas of your life.
I think as normal ass individuals without all the time in the world to do our own research on every topic, it’s okay to trust an authority that is at least trying to follow the scientific method.
I don’t know why on the subject of dog breeds everyone thinks their own anecdotes and personal opinions should some how win out…. And I know people will try to wave around some studies with stats pulled from newspaper articles, but the fact is the CDC, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, Association of Professional Dog Trainers, American Veterinary Medical Association, and Humane society have access to those studies too and came to a different conclusion: they oppose BSL.
I don’t follow… basically you’re making an argument never to trust experts, which is absurd and dangerous. If we learned anything from Covid and the Trump years, it’s that “doing your own research,” misinformation and distrust of experts are real issues that can cause serious damage to a society. I hope you’re not fanning the flames here.
But right… The CDC and humane society disagree with me!
CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7236a6.htm Which doesn’t break out by breed. But the numbers line up with other sources that HAVE broken out the breed. Showing that it’s 71% during this time period pitbull.
And I couldn’t give a fuck what the humane society says. They’re not statisticians nor do they have they ever published any statistics on attacks. Feel free to put up though. I’ll wait patiently.
I’m not going to get into it with you, but I would recommend reading a book called “Pitbull: Battle over an American Icon” by Brownen Dickey. She does have an entire section on dogsbite.org.
dogsbite.org is run by a Colleen Lynn. Colleen’s only real experience with the matter is that she successfully sued someone over a dog bite. She has no statistics or veterinary credentials, yet on her page, she tries to cite studies from the experts that do in order to appear more reputable… kind of like you’re doing. However, she draws very different conclusions than those experts indicating she’s cherry-picking the data to suit her own biases… kind of like you’re doing.
I’m sorry but when the CDC, American Veterinary Medical Association, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, Association of Professional Dog Trainers, etc, etc all draw different conclusions and oppose breed-specific legislation, it’s hard to give much weight to a site like dogsbite.org, who’s owner has a bias based on her personal experience and has financially benefited from the dog bite issue in the courts.
If you want more, go ahead and read the book, but that’s it from me. Have a nice day, you won’t hear from me again on the matter.
So out of all of these experts and studies… how many of these are wrong? Why do ALL of these studies continue to find the same information then if supposedly the sources you put trust in have proven otherwise? Also I’ve yet to see ANY data from any of your supposed sources here… from anyone… Nobody of the 3-4 of you saying that pit bulls are perfectly fine animals the CDC says so… has linked me anything showing that they say that.
Meaning if you remove pitbulls and other “aggressive” dogs, people still end up in the hospital at the same rate from dog bites.
All this points to the simple fact that if you give an asshole a dog, that dog will be dangerous.
Also as an aside any claim to “per capita” with regards to dogs is baseless. There has not ever been a dog census nor would we reasonably be able to do one, so we can’t make any claims about “this breed has a higher percentage of biters” or anything to that effect.
Also as an aside any claim to “per capita” with regards to dogs is baseless. There has not ever been a dog census nor would we reasonably be able to do one, so we can’t make any claims about “this breed has a higher percentage of biters” or anything to that effect.
This is a persons representation of a study. Not the study. but it links to here (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abk0639) So if breed has nothing to do with anything. How come there’s qualities organized by breed by the study? You can’t claim that behaviors aren’t affected by breed, then show me a study that shows a bunch of behaviors organized by breed. And you all keep telling me that I’m disingenuous.
Except this misses one big premise… Amount of cases can be exactly the same, but severity of each case can go down severely. Also amount of cases can be the same, but have less fatalities! Almost like your link and my link can co-exist.https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/level-1-trauma-center-studies-dog-bite-injuries-2011-2022.pdf and no offense, but I’m okay with a world where there’s less harm and death done.
Okay, because I saw you’re a fan of banpitbull subreddit.
I need to ask a very simple question. Do you care about actual safety, or do you just want pitbulls banned? Like what is your goal?
Because all science in the last 5 years states people, not pitbulls, are the problem. Globally. That’s the issue.
If you actually want “less harm and death done” then you need to listen to the scientific experts and stop pushing for BSL, and instead push for things that move towards the goal of less harm and death.
You don’t need to have a census to have a pretty damn good idea of how many there are. And you all keep telling me that I’m disingenuous.
You say that and then the link you provided did not give me a very good idea about per capita of the breeds… I have no idea how many of any breed there are.
This is a persons representation of a study. Not the study. but it links to here (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abk0639) So if breed has nothing to do with anything. How come there’s qualities organized by breed by the study? You can’t claim that behaviors aren’t affected by breed, then show me a study that shows a bunch of behaviors organized by breed. And you all keep telling me that I’m disingenuous.
You are being disingenuous… Less than 9% difference across all breeds. A dog is a dog is a dog. Some howl, some don’t. Some are more active. A dog is a dog is a dog.
Except this misses one big premise… Amount of cases can be exactly the same, but severity of each case can go down severely. Also amount of cases can be the same, but have less fatalities!
Well it was counting hospitalizations… So it’s safe to say we’re only talking about severe ones…
I need to ask a very simple question. Do you care about actual safety, or do you just want pitbulls banned? Like what is your goal?
Oh I would be okay with all large breeds (let’s say over 50lbs. as being a start) being required licensing. But considering the specific damage caused by pitbulls I would love to see them go first if there’s got to be a first. And “banned” in my case would be force spay/neuter and legalize breeding of them. I’m not a monster that wants to see a witch hunt to murder all currently existing pit bulls. I just want to see a breed that was bred for causing as much damage as possible in a fight not… Other large dogs being kept in a city apartment should also be illegalized as well IMO… but other breeds don’t have the predilection to bite the way pit bulls do.
You say that and then the link you provided did not give me a very good idea about per capita of the breeds… I have no idea how many of any breed there are.
Because I was specifically addressing your “census” comment. I have no issue providing more information to a point if required. There’s a few ways to infer population stats… https://www.pitbullinfo.org/pit-bulls-population.html has some for instance (DNA sites or veterinary data). Or you can grab stats from any number of dog rescues/pounds/etc… These stats won’t ever be perfect singularly. But certainly good enough.
You are being disingenuous… Less than 9% difference across all breeds. A dog is a dog is a dog. Some howl, some don’t. Some are more active. A dog is a dog is a dog.
So in your mind… pitbulls are fine because there’s only a 9% difference in breeds even though they make up 71% of all dog related deaths since 2011? You realize this isn’t just a case of strictly bite numbers. You even pointed it out. Even if pitbulls are LESS likely to bite, but each instance of a bite causes significantly more damage that causes hospitalization/death… This is STILL A PROBLEM. I’d still like to point out that your own source STILL managed to organize the breeds even though it’s only “9%”…
Well it was counting hospitalizations… So it’s safe to say we’re only talking about severe ones…
So instead of addressing the article I posted you ignore it? Again?
Even a little dog can bite you right in the throat, breaking your carotid artery so you to bleed to death. Don’t underestimate the strength of their bite just because they are smaller than a cat.
Even a little dog can bite you right in the throat
If a little dog can jump ~5.5 foot to reach my throat, then it deserves the kill. But this is very much not represented by the statistics at all. Little dogs simply don’t kill people. I looked at the stats a bunch of months ago before the reddit exodus… It’s like one “little dog breed” every 4-5 years (which is representative of a fraction of a fraction of a percent)… where 65+% of all dog related deaths are from a pit bull breed.
I knew someone who had a badly behaved dog, it attacked their partner so they put it down.
A few weeks later “I’m getting another one and I’m going to train it myself”
Meaning they just won’t train it, lost their shit when someone called them out as a dog killer. People don’t deserve animals, people suck.
Yeah, for real. Pitbulls are the common target because they’re the “vicious dog”. It’s a self-fullfilling prophecy. Talk about how pitbulls are vicious man-killers, people who want vicious man-killers buy them and train them to be vicious man-killers, pitbulls become vicious man-killers. Meanwhile, the people who want a family dog don’t get pitbulls because, well, they’re “vicious man-killers”. The result is that statistics get skewed in favor of the “vicious man-killer” status, leading to people seeing the breed as nothing more than vicious man-killers.
That combined with the pseudoscience that was spewed by Merritt Clifton, that everyone still quotes today, and you’ve got yourself some statistical issues.
Behavior is influenced by genetics as well as environment. Certain individual animals are more genetically predisposed towards violence than others. Certain breeds of particular species tend to have more of these individuals than others. So, it is possible to have a breed that is violent in that: if you take a random sample of that breed where the individuals are subjected to an identical rearing process more of those individuals will be more violent than average than the average breed has individuals who are more violent than average. (I realize that sentence is probably difficult to digest, but I’m not going to spend 20 more minutes working on this).
Given the data that we have on pit bulls, I think they’re a violent breed. Not all pit bulls are violent, but a pit bull is more likely to be violent than a golden retriever when the two are raised in the same environment.
But you can train a dog to not act on their instinctual prey drive. Pitbulls are way more likely to be abused than golden retrievers so I don’t see how your point is relevant. Why are pitbulls the problem instead of shitty dog owners?
Edit: you can be damn sure if a golden retriever or any dog grew up the way violent pitbulls grow up, they would be just as violent. Golden retrievers are easier to train though, I’ll give you that.
Using statistics without context is not right. Especially when talking about people or other living things that have unique personalities and life experiences.
I agree from both an animal welfare and public safety perspective that we need far stricter laws and regulations on dog ownership in general. But also I also think that some breeds are inherently more dangerous than others. For the American Bully XL in particular, we are talking a new pitbull-adjacent breed which has been bred for both aggression, intimidation and maximum muscle mass, both to skirt past existing legislation that bans American Pit Bulls, but also because all these traits appeal to the kind of irresponsible owners that just want an attack dog that looks 'aard as fuck.
We’re also deluding ourselves when we claim that a dog bred to resemble the canine equivalent of Brock Lesnar is a nanny dog and wouldn’t harm a fly, when in actuality losing control of a 145 lb jacked beast has even led to grown adults being mauled to death.
Assholes will get big dogs, abuse ignore and isolate them, then act surprised when they act unpredictably.
Breed specific legislation isn’t the answer. The answer is for mandatory training courses predating dog ownership. All dog ownership too. Little dogs can be assholes too.
When 1 breed is per capita significantly higher represented… yes it is.
Little dogs can’t kill you.
If we breed a dog to be the size of a hippo… Is that still okay to have? Even if it’s only 6x as dangerous as the next breed?
The CDC and humane society disagree with you, you know, based on expert opinion. You’re not an expert, so I’ll ignore your comment.
Edit: I’ll also add the American Veterinary Medical Association, the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, the Animal Behavior Society, the National Animal Care and Control Association, etc. also oppose breed specific legislation.
So, yeah I’ll take their opinion over some silly comment on the internet.
While I’m on the side of pitbulls, don’t go waving around an appeal to authority fallacy like that.
Point of order: That’s not an appeal to authority. The other user was pointing out organizations that have actual expertise in the field. “Appeal to authority” is if they said “Bill Gates said pitbulls are fine”
He’s an authority figure, but not expertise in the matter.
Whereas the CDC, the humane society, the American veterinary association etc etc are actually experts in at least some part of the argument.
I’m not appealing to an irrelevant authority. I’m appealing to experts on the matter. I personally don’t have the time nor interest to do all the research myself, so trusting their expert opinion is what I’ll have to do. I hope you’ll do the same, as you do in other areas of your life.
I think as normal ass individuals without all the time in the world to do our own research on every topic, it’s okay to trust an authority that is at least trying to follow the scientific method.
I don’t know why on the subject of dog breeds everyone thinks their own anecdotes and personal opinions should some how win out…. And I know people will try to wave around some studies with stats pulled from newspaper articles, but the fact is the CDC, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, Association of Professional Dog Trainers, American Veterinary Medical Association, and Humane society have access to those studies too and came to a different conclusion: they oppose BSL.
And you know for sure they’re not serving their own interest?
Imagine a statistics agency said any particular human race was more dangerous.
I don’t follow… basically you’re making an argument never to trust experts, which is absurd and dangerous. If we learned anything from Covid and the Trump years, it’s that “doing your own research,” misinformation and distrust of experts are real issues that can cause serious damage to a society. I hope you’re not fanning the flames here.
Oh? Feel free to drop a link proving me wrong then since they’ve weighed in on the matter. In the meantime…
https://www.dogsbite.org/
Feel free to peruse here… including medical studies like https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/level-1-trauma-center-studies-dog-bite-injuries-2011-2022.pdf as an example showing that pit bulls historically occur more often and cause SIGNIFICANTLY more damage.
But right… The CDC and humane society disagree with me!
CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7236a6.htm Which doesn’t break out by breed. But the numbers line up with other sources that HAVE broken out the breed. Showing that it’s 71% during this time period pitbull.
And I couldn’t give a fuck what the humane society says. They’re not statisticians nor do they have they ever published any statistics on attacks. Feel free to put up though. I’ll wait patiently.
I’m not going to get into it with you, but I would recommend reading a book called “Pitbull: Battle over an American Icon” by Brownen Dickey. She does have an entire section on dogsbite.org.
dogsbite.org is run by a Colleen Lynn. Colleen’s only real experience with the matter is that she successfully sued someone over a dog bite. She has no statistics or veterinary credentials, yet on her page, she tries to cite studies from the experts that do in order to appear more reputable… kind of like you’re doing. However, she draws very different conclusions than those experts indicating she’s cherry-picking the data to suit her own biases… kind of like you’re doing.
I’m sorry but when the CDC, American Veterinary Medical Association, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, Association of Professional Dog Trainers, etc, etc all draw different conclusions and oppose breed-specific legislation, it’s hard to give much weight to a site like dogsbite.org, who’s owner has a bias based on her personal experience and has financially benefited from the dog bite issue in the courts.
If you want more, go ahead and read the book, but that’s it from me. Have a nice day, you won’t hear from me again on the matter.
Then show me one from any of these sources that prove that pitbulls are not per-capita the top of the list in any category.
Couldn’t care less… It was hosting the paper I was interested in showing. Have you read it? https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/level-1-trauma-center-studies-dog-bite-injuries-2011-2022.pdf
So out of all of these experts and studies… how many of these are wrong? Why do ALL of these studies continue to find the same information then if supposedly the sources you put trust in have proven otherwise? Also I’ve yet to see ANY data from any of your supposed sources here… from anyone… Nobody of the 3-4 of you saying that pit bulls are perfectly fine animals the CDC says so… has linked me anything showing that they say that.
deleted by creator
So I’m not the other user but I’ll go ahead and help you out.
AVMA quick summary of all the problems with trying to blame a set of breeds: https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/literature-reviews/dog-bite-risk-and-prevention-role-breed
Study that shows breed doesn’t impact behavior in any substantial way: https://www.aaas.org/news/dogs-breed-doesnt-determine-its-behavior#:~:text=According to the findings%2C breed,exclusive to any one breed. Basically a dog is a dog is a dog and the main indicator of how a dog is going to act is how it was raised.
Study shows that BSL doesn’t work: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0208393
Meaning if you remove pitbulls and other “aggressive” dogs, people still end up in the hospital at the same rate from dog bites.
All this points to the simple fact that if you give an asshole a dog, that dog will be dangerous.
Also as an aside any claim to “per capita” with regards to dogs is baseless. There has not ever been a dog census nor would we reasonably be able to do one, so we can’t make any claims about “this breed has a higher percentage of biters” or anything to that effect.
Are you shitting me? https://financesonline.com/number-of-dogs-in-the-us/
You don’t need to have a census to have a pretty damn good idea of how many there are. And you all keep telling me that I’m disingenuous.
This is a persons representation of a study. Not the study. but it links to here (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abk0639) So if breed has nothing to do with anything. How come there’s qualities organized by breed by the study? You can’t claim that behaviors aren’t affected by breed, then show me a study that shows a bunch of behaviors organized by breed. And you all keep telling me that I’m disingenuous.
Except this misses one big premise… Amount of cases can be exactly the same, but severity of each case can go down severely. Also amount of cases can be the same, but have less fatalities! Almost like your link and my link can co-exist.https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/level-1-trauma-center-studies-dog-bite-injuries-2011-2022.pdf and no offense, but I’m okay with a world where there’s less harm and death done.
Okay, because I saw you’re a fan of banpitbull subreddit.
I need to ask a very simple question. Do you care about actual safety, or do you just want pitbulls banned? Like what is your goal?
Because all science in the last 5 years states people, not pitbulls, are the problem. Globally. That’s the issue.
If you actually want “less harm and death done” then you need to listen to the scientific experts and stop pushing for BSL, and instead push for things that move towards the goal of less harm and death.
But okay let’s address the rest now
You say that and then the link you provided did not give me a very good idea about per capita of the breeds… I have no idea how many of any breed there are.
You are being disingenuous… Less than 9% difference across all breeds. A dog is a dog is a dog. Some howl, some don’t. Some are more active. A dog is a dog is a dog.
Well it was counting hospitalizations… So it’s safe to say we’re only talking about severe ones…
Oh I would be okay with all large breeds (let’s say over 50lbs. as being a start) being required licensing. But considering the specific damage caused by pitbulls I would love to see them go first if there’s got to be a first. And “banned” in my case would be force spay/neuter and legalize breeding of them. I’m not a monster that wants to see a witch hunt to murder all currently existing pit bulls. I just want to see a breed that was bred for causing as much damage as possible in a fight not… Other large dogs being kept in a city apartment should also be illegalized as well IMO… but other breeds don’t have the predilection to bite the way pit bulls do.
Because I was specifically addressing your “census” comment. I have no issue providing more information to a point if required. There’s a few ways to infer population stats… https://www.pitbullinfo.org/pit-bulls-population.html has some for instance (DNA sites or veterinary data). Or you can grab stats from any number of dog rescues/pounds/etc… These stats won’t ever be perfect singularly. But certainly good enough.
So in your mind… pitbulls are fine because there’s only a 9% difference in breeds even though they make up 71% of all dog related deaths since 2011? You realize this isn’t just a case of strictly bite numbers. You even pointed it out. Even if pitbulls are LESS likely to bite, but each instance of a bite causes significantly more damage that causes hospitalization/death… This is STILL A PROBLEM. I’d still like to point out that your own source STILL managed to organize the breeds even though it’s only “9%”…
So instead of addressing the article I posted you ignore it? Again?
Well your article isn’t a study, it’s a literary review from a very biased source of a Colleen Lynn
In fact if you want to read up on your source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogsbite.org
You can see that she complains about science and ignores expert opinions in the field because they disagree with her.
It’s very telling when her literary review comes to very different conclusions than actual scientists performing studies in the field.
Rarely have I seen a hole so deeply dug before
Even a little dog can bite you right in the throat, breaking your carotid artery so you to bleed to death. Don’t underestimate the strength of their bite just because they are smaller than a cat.
If a little dog can jump ~5.5 foot to reach my throat, then it deserves the kill. But this is very much not represented by the statistics at all. Little dogs simply don’t kill people. I looked at the stats a bunch of months ago before the reddit exodus… It’s like one “little dog breed” every 4-5 years (which is representative of a fraction of a fraction of a percent)… where 65+% of all dog related deaths are from a pit bull breed.
I knew someone who had a badly behaved dog, it attacked their partner so they put it down.
A few weeks later “I’m getting another one and I’m going to train it myself” Meaning they just won’t train it, lost their shit when someone called them out as a dog killer. People don’t deserve animals, people suck.
A minute of silence for all the people killed by asshole chihuahuas…
how can you get killed by a chihuahua? it nibbles away your toe and you get an infection?!
They think that they’re making a clever point. Of course larger dogs are inherently more dangerous than tiny dogs. No one is disputing that.
But to advocate for the complete wiping out of an entire breed versus mandatory training classes for owners is an insane answer.
Make “dangerous breeds” more difficult to get, sure. I agree with that. But I can NOT with the “wipe out all pitbull/rotties/dobermans/GSDs/etc”
Wiping out? Why not just forbid malicious breeding goals, like aggression, bite force and of course torture / unhealthy breeding?
Yeah, for real. Pitbulls are the common target because they’re the “vicious dog”. It’s a self-fullfilling prophecy. Talk about how pitbulls are vicious man-killers, people who want vicious man-killers buy them and train them to be vicious man-killers, pitbulls become vicious man-killers. Meanwhile, the people who want a family dog don’t get pitbulls because, well, they’re “vicious man-killers”. The result is that statistics get skewed in favor of the “vicious man-killer” status, leading to people seeing the breed as nothing more than vicious man-killers.
That combined with the pseudoscience that was spewed by Merritt Clifton, that everyone still quotes today, and you’ve got yourself some statistical issues.
In case people don’t know who Merritt is
People who get pit bulls as “family dogs” have the same issue.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/10/08/2-children-killed-mother-hospitalized-after-tennessee-dog-mauling/8219201001/
https://winknews.com/2023/07/06/north-port-6-year-old-dies-dog-bite/
I never thought about that
Behavior is influenced by genetics as well as environment. Certain individual animals are more genetically predisposed towards violence than others. Certain breeds of particular species tend to have more of these individuals than others. So, it is possible to have a breed that is violent in that: if you take a random sample of that breed where the individuals are subjected to an identical rearing process more of those individuals will be more violent than average than the average breed has individuals who are more violent than average. (I realize that sentence is probably difficult to digest, but I’m not going to spend 20 more minutes working on this).
Given the data that we have on pit bulls, I think they’re a violent breed. Not all pit bulls are violent, but a pit bull is more likely to be violent than a golden retriever when the two are raised in the same environment.
But you can train a dog to not act on their instinctual prey drive. Pitbulls are way more likely to be abused than golden retrievers so I don’t see how your point is relevant. Why are pitbulls the problem instead of shitty dog owners?
Edit: you can be damn sure if a golden retriever or any dog grew up the way violent pitbulls grow up, they would be just as violent. Golden retrievers are easier to train though, I’ll give you that.
Using statistics without context is not right. Especially when talking about people or other living things that have unique personalities and life experiences.
The only dogs to ever bite me are chihuahuas, and I worked as a vet assistant for years.
Same
I agree from both an animal welfare and public safety perspective that we need far stricter laws and regulations on dog ownership in general. But also I also think that some breeds are inherently more dangerous than others. For the American Bully XL in particular, we are talking a new pitbull-adjacent breed which has been bred for both aggression, intimidation and maximum muscle mass, both to skirt past existing legislation that bans American Pit Bulls, but also because all these traits appeal to the kind of irresponsible owners that just want an attack dog that looks 'aard as fuck.
We’re also deluding ourselves when we claim that a dog bred to resemble the canine equivalent of Brock Lesnar is a nanny dog and wouldn’t harm a fly, when in actuality losing control of a 145 lb jacked beast has even led to grown adults being mauled to death.
And a license to have a dog and a rebate for a year or more of medical care for them, for getting them spayed/neutered
When big dog acts out: “ahh that breed is aggressive! 😡”
When abused purse dogs act out (more frequently and more viciously): “oh isnt he just adorable 🥺”