DNC will throw an election before moving to the left.
Its funny how people act as if kamala lost because she supported genocide
No lol, leftists hold miniscule power in electorate, kamala lost because she ran a shitty campaign and neo liberal economics will only make things worse for incumbent.
America doesn’t have a left wing. America has a right wing and an extreme right wing. The closest to an actual leftist that America has is Mamdani, and America’s so-called left wing politicians tried their best to make him look evil.
Don’t forget Bernie and AOC.
It’s about time America stops electing people who need to be in elder care homes as their politicians.
I agree with the age issues, but america needs politicians with integrity. Not words but a track record demonstrating integrity. Few fit that bill
Some factors for losing:
- People were already salty that Biden even decided to run again, and then he forced a different candidate upon the voters.
- Status quo
- Woman
- Not white
- Zionism apologist
- Obviously dumb strategy to ditch the “weird” name calling, and placate the right.
- I not sure what to call it, but there is definitely an issue in our country of picking the “popular kid”, or “cool kid”
Her loss was a combination of many factors, including the support of genocidal Zionism. Do not ignore it.
I not sure what to call it, but there is definitely an issue in our country of picking the “popular kid”, or “cool kid”
Charisma matters more than it should.
MAGA are so soft, the “weird” moniker for their god emperor was one of the few things that was working well
I voted for Kamala, but I was pissed we didn’t have a fucking primary. If we had a primary, we might have gotten Bernie on the ballot, or Elizabeth Warren, or Butegig, or anyone else. But instead Biden claimed to be running, then dropped out at the last minute so opps no time for primaries. I’m salty as hell that democrats didn’t get a choice. It felt deliberate and coordinated.
Whoopie, the man who promised to be one term ran for another just long enough to ensure no one actually got a say in who to run.
Certainly a mistake from the people who argued in court and won with it that they don’t have to have honest primaries.
neo libs must choose… either there is not enough progressives to demand a progressive candidate so they are not a large enough block to have changed the outcome OR they are large enough bloc to demand progressive cannidate and the democrats ignoring them cost them the election.
and they always pivot talking points
Schrodinger’s Left: small enough for Dems to ignore, large enough to make Dems lose
The enemy is both strong and weak.
It’s almost like they’re fascist lite…
It’s almost like Democrats are 2016 Republicans, which were fascist light…
I’m happy to see more progressives running but as a recent example, Madami, the Dems would have rather he lost than win even if it meant electing Trump. They’re the ones that put themselves in this position, now us.
They spent millions to keep him out, they hate winning if it means the rich lose $100.
They are addicted to the AIPAC tit
There’s a reason actual leftists refer to these losers as “social fascists”
Liberals vastly prefer fascism to actual justice.
And then they get mad when you call it out with documentation, even directly quoting their political idols and their own words about what they support.
They just want the fascism done quietly in blue color than loudly in red.
Funny, that works just as well in reverse: If “the left” is big enough that all the posturing about not voting for the lesser evil, and the moral purity BS caused Trump to win, they are responsible for untold horrors simply because they want to grand stand. If they aren’t big enough, they’re irrelevant anyway, so why would anyone care?
actully, it specifically CAN’T work the other way
If the left is small, then it was rightly ignored, but can’t be blamed. If it’s large, then it could be blamed, had it not been ignored. What you can’t do is both ignore it and then blame it.
This isn’t feudalism, it’s not the job of the peasants to mollify the Lord, getting votes is a politician’s job. Blaming the electorate for your loss is an abrogation of responsibility.
Also I don’t think voters appreciated having her shoved in at the last minute.
This. Democrats had no primary for presidential choice.
Kamala lost because it was obvious from the beginning that she was a bad candidate whose only hope of becoming President was to be parachuted into the role via the 25th Amendment once Biden’s mental state truly deteriorated. Unfortunately for her and the DNC, Biden’s condition declined right as a key presidential debate rolled around, and his declining cognitive health became so utterly apparent that not even Reddit’s tyrannical cabal of power mods could cover it up anymore.
Before that debate, even merely suggesting that Biden was senile would have gotten you labelled a Nazi and banned from at least a dozen subreddits.
THAT is why she lost to a convicted felon.
Did you watch the debates between Biden and Trump. Biden was far more articulate and sane than trump, and it still wasn’t enough.
Who said they were going to beat medicare and had an eyeball get bloody on stage?
Both were senile racist bastards, one has always been incoherent, one was more recently incoherent.
Both of them were clearly demented. Trump just making shit up and Biden interrupting him to mumble incoherently, ending in “We Beat Medicaid!”
Nah he was just quiet senile instead of loud senile. I’ve had patients that are rather agreeable despite low cognitive function. They don’t wind up in the hospital as much and get discharged quicker because the agreeableness means they can accept home caregivers more safely, but they very much still need assistance with decision making. He wasn’t more coherent per se, just more able to cooperate with his handlers. Ignoring morality (a distressingly common occurrence throughout the history of humanity) is it preferable to have a leader who accepts control of the oligarchs more placidly or more chaotically? I don’t speak to my parents anymore for a variety of reasons (including politics) but one tiny spark of something they did get right was that trump is slightly harder to keep under control, and is accelerating the destruction of our broken political system. We ultimately just differed in opinion on whether the coming system is more likely to be better or worse.
Sure, but republicans don’t care if their candidate is sane (obviously). Democrats do.
she was a candidate for 100 days leading up to the election, against a former president that had been campaigning non stop for
68 years at the point she joined the race. She was fucked over and thrown under a bus.She had good momentum at the start with the brat summer thing and calling conservatives weird and then, very suddenly, she threw it all in the trash and started running around with Liz Cheney. They saw her amping up the progressives and needed to put a stop to it and whether it was her idea or not she jumped in there with all her energy.
She could have won, she didn’t lose by much, but she desperately spent the last month or two making sure that everyone knew she would rather lean conservative than progressive.
I felt like she was a token black women as a VP, and not allowed to be any more than that. As much as the dems espouse equality its still a rich white man who is against universal healthcare running things.
The Gaza issue seems to have been pretty big
Its very hard to discern the real reason Harris lost in the election. Especially with interference the Right orchestrated with mail in voting and voting IDs, they tanked the left’s momentum while gassing Trump’s reelection with actual fraud. The results of numerous investigations was that if someone committed fraud or voted twice it was for a Republican candidate… but don’t worry isn’t not like Trump controlled the swing districts and threw away votes for Harris.
and voting IDs
Just another reminder: Read the SAVE Act and start getting together valid ID under it now, don’t wait to find out if it’s going to pass first. Valid ID has other uses too so it’s not a total waste if it doesn’t pass and gets you ahead of both the line and any GOP fuckery with trying to get ID if it does pass.
Especially if you are someone who has ever changed their name, as SAVE allows for some forms of voter ID that don’t verify citizenship, but those have to be paired with a birth record with a matching name, which doesn’t exist if you have ever changed your name (such as being a married woman, or many trans folks).
“Trump on Elon Musk: ‘He knows those computers better than anybody. All those computers. Those vote-counting computers. And we ended up winning Pennsylvania like in a landslide.’”
Not totally convinced she lost.
“No new wars” was a trump slogan, leftists aren’t the only ones against the genocide, pretty much everyone who doesn’t have ties with israel was pissed with US involvement.
She lost because the average voter votes for whatever name they’ve heard before.
no, she lost because 1/3 of Americans failed to vote.
The turnout was actually rather high by historical standards. A portion of the population not voting is just a constant of elections. You can’t blame your loss on something that happens every election. And worse, in recent elections, Democrats do WORSE when turnout is higher. If turnout were higher, Kamala would have lost even worse.
I can easily blame lazy shitheads for doing nothing to stop fascism.
Watch me.
Also you guys are fucking idiots.
“If you don’t pick a better candidate then I’ll just let the one who wants concentration camps and to erase all of Palestine win”
Like, seriously, look at the big picture. Do you think Kamala who would have still supported Israel would have been worse for Gaza? It’s literally not possible. You guys fucked up the entire planet in your pride.
Now I’m not saying the DNC isn’t wrong, they’re fucking morons. But you guys just gave up on global warming, gay rights, trans rights, Gaza, any sembles of the environment, public health, the entire “justice” system, the courts, your immigrant neighbours, all people of colour in the US, and women’s rights.
I cannot express how much I fucking hate people like you right now.
Go ahead and downvote me. “But it’s not right”. Yeah? We’ll choosing to let this happen is leagues worse. You guaranteed the genecide in Gaza would be the worst it ever could be you fucking morons.
Go out and pressure the DNC to not be shit, but don’t fucking say there’s no difference between Kamala and Trump.
i’m glad i’m not the only one shitting on 3rd party/abstainers every chance i get. high and mighty morality police, usually saying shit like “kamala was always going to lose” while simultaneously trying to push the 100% guaranteed fail action of 3rd party or sitting out.
whether they’re actually russian propaganda trolls or not hardly matters–they’re shit human beings either way
Agreed. But I’m not going to publicly endorse a dead-end DNC loser before it’s necessary. The DNC needs to act like people aren’t required to vote for them and field a candidate that can actually win votes.
That’s valid! More than valid it’s necessary. Show resistance against weak DNC libs AS LONG AS POSSIBLE, but possible ends when it’s time to vote. Then always choose the option that is best or, if necessary least damaging.
If you don’t vote against the biggest fascist, you are helping fascism along.
WRONG!
You hype the Dems in public every chance you get.
The GOP once elected a dead pimp because they don’t care.
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Hof, who had been a Republican since 2016, ran against Democratic challenger Lesia Romanov in a heavily Republican district that included parts of Nye County and surrounding rural areas BuzzFeed News. He was known for his flamboyant style, his HBO reality series Cathouse, and his self-proclaimed role as the “Trump of Pahrump”
On the other hand, this is a fine time for this conversation. We do have roughly a year to find a candidate that’s not fucking Newsom just because he could meme for a minute.
I don’t mind a few memes in our politics, but I do want there to be some kind of substance under the memes. And not the substance Magats have found under theirs, 💩.
no. this shit is the reason we’re in this situation, innocent citizens getting rounded up, deported, murdered. because so many people wanted to moralize, “vote their conscience,” “wE dIdNt GeT a PrImArY”…whatthefuckever, while the rest of us were shouting that everyone’s top priority needs to be keeping trump out of the white house.
so again: if it ends up that newsom, or harris, or a fucking lobotomized muskrat ends up being the candidate–VOTE FOR THE FUCKING MUSKRAT instead of trump, or 3rd party, or, ffs sitting out
i will die on this hill. you might too
I mean, I generally agree with you, but like most things this isn’t black and white. It’s a nuanced thing that needs to be handled with care. I get it; Large movements are terrible at nuance.
While we’re two years out from the start of the campaign, we can certainly encourage the Dems to find an actual progressive.
Hillary was better than Newsom. It’s funny that California Dems are blasted as the most liberal, when they might be the most conservative Dems outside of West Virginia.
Yes, anything is better than fascism. That point was more important 18 months ago, and might be more important again 12 months from now.
It’s also important how you say what you have to say. Dems are absolutely not the ones to blame for all this shit. Not doing enough is not the same as directly causing the disaster.
this isn’t black and white
please.
remove fascism vs keep fascism seems pretty “black and white” to me. what the chicken fried fuck are you talking about “nuance” at this point? vote against trump, or do anything else; that’s the choices. ideal? no. reality? yes. you think we should bicker and argue about the “best” person to oppose trump while the fascists are 100% behind whoever the fuck chimpanzee is on the ballot that they’re going to vote for regardless, because they have ® by their name. THAT is how democrats lose
i’m not “blaming dems”, nor did i imply such at any point anywhere, so you can go ahead and eliminate that bullshit from your argument.
good luck with your “find an actual progressive” aka 3rd party with about zero chance of actually winning any election for any office anywhere. i will try to come to terms with the fact that we’re in fascism from now on, because not-fascists just can’t seem to grasp “vote against fascism no matter what”
thanks for your insight. i hope you don’t have kids
remove fascism vs keep fascism seems pretty “black and white” to me.
Democrats don’t even want to defund ICE. How are they removing fascism?
it never ceases to amaze…
we have a racist child rapist murderous fascist corrupt-to-the-core fucking con man in the white house
but hey! let’s talk about all the democrats’ problems!
any ballot cast that isn’t D all the way down is the objectively wrong choice
“find an actual progressive” aka 3rd party
lol no. You don’t get to strawman and then be a rude piece of shit about it.
people are getting murdered by ice.
and a rando on lemmy is what’s making you mad
nuance
How do you think we got trump in the first place? Democrats kept moving to the right and making things worse until a candidate like trump could seize the moment. So yeah, you will die on that hill because it was a hill built by voting the “lesser of two evils” while both parties moved to be more evil, until we’ve got the current level of evil we have now.
Lol this is so fucking funny. My vote wasn’t a fail.
If you didn’t vote for Kamala, then you’re part of the problem
But you guys just gave up on global warming, gay rights, trans rights, Gaza, any sembles of the environment, public health, the entire “justice” system, the courts, your immigrant neighbours, all people of colour in the US, and women’s rights.
You forgot to include USAID.
Anyone who keeps clutching to Gaza and says Kamala would have been as bad as Trump can suck my dick.
I forgot a ton of things.
AI, your data privacy, your parents retirement, NATO, electric cars, green energy, antitrust, the chip shortage.
There’s a huge list.
Yup
It’s fucking mind numbing
Yes! Primaries primaries primaries.
Go and primary every single DNC candidate that isn’t good enough, get better democratic candidates wherever you can. Put even more energy into primaries than into the election itself! But when the decision comes down to Churchill or Hitler, you better vote for fucking Churchill.
Everything else is just throwing the minorities and the future under the bus as a cost of doing business.
https://sourcenews.scot/analysis-5-of-the-worst-crimes-of-winston-churchill/
Churchill is probably viewed as worse than Hitler in parts of the world for good reason.
I think a lot of the argument against voting for lesser evil is the acceleration aspect. It’s advocating for a quicker fall of the American empire
Accelerationism is a great idea.
I don’t care how many people die now, because it will bring a glorious time in the future.
Accelerationism is Christianity with Lenin replacing Jesus
Except the Armageddon is real but no-one will rise up to save us when every major city is nothing but glowing embers under an ever gray nuclear sky while the remnants of humanity fight each other with sticks over the last grain silos.
So-called American “revolutionaries” make me sick with their reckless disregard for the unavoidable responsibility their country has with regards to their military. An “accelerated downfall” won’t just affect you bozos. Especially not if the means are “stoking the fire of imperialism”.
If I could press a button to accelerate the US downfall and magically contain the fighting to the lower 48 in a way that leaves whoever is left standing nuke-less, I would, but that’s not an option on the table, so barring that, please vote against the guy who really can’t be trusted with the nuclear briefcase, yeah???
Accelerationism is acceptable to people who think they have little to fear from a (hopefully) short spike in terrible things, because they might come out of the other side worse for wear, but they will make it through.
But for everybody who’s part of a vulnerable group it’s throwing them to the wolves, because likely, they will not come out of the other side.
(I want to be clear that I’m not advocating for accelerationism, I’m just seeing holes in the argument) Pushing people in a vulnerable position now to make change for the future is a great example of the needs of the many ethical arguments. Advocating against change because it hurts me in the short term is inherently selfish. I know people that are accelerationists, and The ones I know don’t assume that they’ll come out ahead or even the same. They recognize that the system is inherently broken and they think they need more people uncomfortable to make meaningful change.
This continues to be the stupidest, least productive way to think about elections. The lesser of two evils argument may be true, but it failed to motivate people to vote for Kamala in 2024 (or Hillary in 2016, for that matter). You can bitch about protest votes or an apathetic electorate all you want, but at the end of the day, you don’t win elections if you don’t get votes, and, “yEaH, bUt TrUmP iS wOrSe,” didn’t get votes. If the Democrats once again run a candidate who doesn’t reflect their base and once again lose the election, it will once again be their fault for repeating a losing strategy that produces losing candidates.
But you can bet when they lose they’ll blame everyone else in the room but themselves. I don’t think the neo-liberals of the party realize how much bad blood they’ve been generating.
It’s getting hard to tell if they even want to win. Even a year ago it might be plausible to argue that centrism is a smart strategy, but at this point, with victories like Mamdani and Mejia, it’s just demonstrably wrong. Hell, Platner is still leading Mills in Maine even after the whole, “having a Nazi tattoo,” thing. If the Democrats are still pursuing centrism going into 2028, then they have to admit they would prefer losing to fascists than adding progressives to their tent.
The US election system is stupid, antiquated and corrupt. As long as it isn’t reformed (of which it itself prevents ever happening), the lesser evil is all you will ever get from that system.
They are idiots, because they can’t reason and forecast outcomes well. If YOU cast a protest vote, then I understand your comment.
Can you please explain a strategy (other than lying) that would have appeased the dummies?
She should have lied to overcome their childish minds.
I did vote for her. I live in a comfortably Blue state, but I agreed to vote for her in solidarity with some of my swing-state friends that didn’t want to vote for her.
As for strategy, well, Kamala’s entire strategy was, “our base is already going to vote for us, so we’re going to instead pursue disaffected Republicans by campaigning with Lize Cheney and Barbara Bush.” That choice depressed the turnout of her own base and cost her the election. Motivating Democratic voters instead of chasing imaginary moderate Republicans would have been a better strategy, and it probably had a bigger impact than the Gaza protest votes.
Anyway, let’s just say you’re right, and the electorate is full of childish leftist dummies that won’t vote for Harris because they’re idiots that can’t see the big picture. Well, then what? You can piss and moan about these voters all you want, but you seem to think they were the deciding factor in 2024, so what are the Democrats gonna do to win them over? It seems unlikely that all of these people you think are idiots that can’t reason or forecast will be radically different in the next two years, so are the Democrats going to do something different in 2028, or have you just resigned to losing now?
That choice depressed the turnout of her own base and cost her the election.
I completely agree. That was disheartening to experience.
what are the Democrats gonna do to win them over?
I’m sorry for the frustrated name calling. It’s probably not helpful. I’m just so so frustrated.
For the immediate term, they should be lied to.
In the long term, we need to force their hand, and then abolish the Democratic party.
are the Democrats going to do something different in 2028
No.
have you just resigned to losing now?
The current trend has me worried.
I will likely die for this.
Wanna know how to pressure the DNC to pick a candidate you like? Go fucking vote for them in the primary!
Typically, the primaries get 1/10th the turnout of the general election. That means that a very small number of people can sway the primary. Go stump for your candidate. Make phone calls, talk to your family and friends and community, explain why your candidate is the better choice.
The lack of a primary in 2024 was fucking awful, but guess what? Chances are, there is a primary going on for your state right now, get to work!
Try telling that to someone who supported Bernie, but before you do that you might want to go back and refresh youself on what happened. The DNC is a diseased carcass, change isn’t possible.
In 2016. 2020 it was fair and he lost. I voted for him but supposedly all his other supporters didn’t. That’s democracy. You don’t count if you don’t show up.
Before I consider this complaint, I need you to go back, and get the primary results from the 2016 DNC primary and post them here.
I know what the results are, but I need to know that you know before we discuss further.
The DNC even said that they don’t have to run fair primaries, because they technically don’t. God damn it wakup!
No it’s more like “Why make an argument against the charges when the charges have no standing at all.” The case is dismissable, why would you waste your time and money fighting it in court?
Maybe; I didn’t look into it past probably biased summaries. My cynical sense was on fire
Do you really think the vote results of a corrupt election somehow make that election not corrupt? How are we still having this stupid ass argument in 2026?
I guess Putin really does have 88% support in Russia. That’s what the vote says after all, so it must be true.
Are you saying that Bernie got more votes in the primary than Hillary, and the DNC manipulated the votes to make Hillary win?
No, I’m saying the election itself was corrupted in order to feed the victory to Hillary. Superdelegates, DNC-run smear campaigns, election rigging by limiting debates to reduce the visibility of the outsider. Accusations of sexism simply for not supporting the candidate with a vagina.
Manipulating votes is not the only way to rig an election, you can do a lot just by manipulating the voters themselves. The DNC admitted to this, they didn’t have to run a fair election. So stop pretending the end result of a blatantly corrupt process justifies the process.
Alright, you pretty much posted the same argument I was expecting from the other two, but just taking a little detour through the possibility that you thought the votes were altered.
Before I consider this complaint, I need you to go back, and get the primary results from the 2016 DNC primary and post them here.
I need to know that you know before we can discuss further.
but before you do that you might want to go back and refresh youself on what happened.
He lost? Yeah, fuck primaries forever!
did bernie lose because people didn’t vote for him? or did he lose because the democrats establishment push him out?
for what you said to be true, the democrats need to abolish the superdelegates, which they won’t do.
Same thing applies to you.
Before I consider this complaint, I need you to go back, and get the primary results from the 2016 DNC primary and post them here.
Yeah…
To the people “wanting to teach the DNC a lesson”, in the nicest way possible, you’re fucking idiots.
They threw literally ever other minority group under the bus, and got absolutely nothing for it - if anything they actually got less than nothing, because Trump wasn’t just going soft on Israel, he was actively cheering them on!
I will never understand the mentality of choosing that hill to die on… Like couldn’t you guys have waited until Trump was at least off the board first.
Man was literally on his way to a lifetime in jail and bankruptcy, that he got out of scot-free because you guys decided 2024 was the time for a protest vote.
I will never understand the mentality of choosing that hill to die on…
I think it only makes sense if they’re lying about their beliefs and wanted trump to win.
I think for some of them it’s an unwillingness to admit/accept the consequences for their actions.
Honestly I agree with this take more than @TrickDacy@lemmy.world.
Some people get far too easily caught up in the issue of the day and lose sight of the bigger picture, and by the time they see the consequences of that it’s far too late.
Like I was saying with the whole Israel thing. People got so worked up in refusing every DNC candidate who wasn’t anti-Israel, that they seemingly entirely forgot about everything else on the board.
Ukraine? LGBTQ rights? Women’s rights? Ethnic Minority rights? Climate Change reforms? Apparently the US’ whole democratic system?
Was losing all that really all worth fighting up a losing battle over Israel?.. Which arguably had an even worse outcome than it would’ve, entirely because of their fighting over it let the genocidal dictator wannbe win?
Its ironically not too disimilar to how the far right screws over their voterbase…
Get them riled up over some racist bigoted stance, then stab them in the back and tell them it was somebody else’s fault while still holding the knife.
Theyre not unlike maga voters in that regard and they don’t want to hear it.
When you wrap up your political decisions in your identity it is CRUSHING to admit you’ve been wrong.
I imagine they feel so pure not voting or voting third party or whatever and then the reality of that comes crashing in about February 1 or so.
I could forgive that if they at least don’t make the same mistake twice.
Edit- witness the downvotes for saying this. Just confirmation I suppose.
That might be, but it’s hard to believe many people would not see the result coming ahead of time. It’s just not a believable concept to me that these folks really believed that anything could happen besides trump being more likely to win. The most generous I can be with them is that they didn’t care what would happen.
We had the chance to get rid of Trump forever and the tankies blew it
“fuck democracy! You are required to vote how I want you to vote! You don’t have a choice!” /s
Go out and pressure the DNC to not be shit
How about you go out and draw the rest of the owl there? The main power we have is our right to vote, and you’re saying we shouldn’t use that to pressure the DNC to put forth a pro-worker anti-war candidate.
And how is not voting for them going to do that? They’re fine with you not voting for them, and even losing in the case of DNC leadership. Always have been.
You want to put pressure on them? Be the candidate to primary the party line candidate in Democratic primaries. Yes they will use every structural advantage they have against you. But if enough people do it constantly. The cracks will widen and show. Otherwise they’re happy to receive donations and funding from the wealthy, even if they don’t win.
To be clear, I think all national parties should be outlawed. Generally state wide ones as well. But unless you can change the political reality we are in. The only possibility is not just holding off the worst possible candidates such as trump. Though more should have shown solidarity against him. But being the candidates we want to vote for. And not letting some uninterested complacent national organization make those decision for us.
Not voting for them has done just that! We’ve seen real change at the DNC, and that is only because the neoliberals have been completely discredited. They can no longer claim the narrative of being the adult in the room, the logical choice for electability.
Party power structures only change after the party loses.
I’m a leftist who absolutely voted Harris, because the other option was horrific. I was not in love with Kamala but I did feel that she was a faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar better option. But I will not lie, I know several people who were basically exactly like the people you are talking about. It’s disheartening.
I think the main issue is that some people don’t have any sense of prioritization.
They’re the people who complain when they’re in the ER for a cold and a person with a gunshot wound gets to go ahead of them.
Not my girlfriend herself but a large portion of her family (who are all from Palestine!!!) wasted their votes on Jill Scott. I thought that was insane to do. Like, I definitely understood why but 2024 was NOT the time for that.
They’ll do it again.
Please shut the fuck up.
Youre spreading the propaganda that helped them justify their actions.
Oh ok my bad. I’ll stfu now.
I CaNT bElIevE PeOpLE wOuLD dO ThiS!!!
Meanwhile, you’re pulling provably false both sides bullshit. What a tool you must be.
I’m drunk, but wtf are you talking about “both sides” propaganda?
Much like MAGA think global warming is liberal propaganda because it’s politically inconvenient, Blue MAGA think even recognising their strategy isn’t working is
leftistRussian propaganda.
Yes. For sure with Harris things would be much better here and there. Not voting is only makes things worse and we know GOP is very unpopular now the only strategy is to infiltrate Dems and manipulate people to not vote again and elect them again.
Dems are so easily to manipulate this why things are bad. If you don’t vote it’s your fault how things are
They literally do think everything that’s happened under Trump would have been the same under Kamala.
They are deeply unserious people who have no ambitions for politics and care only about purity-testing.
Gaza would have been worse, because Netanyahu would have kept up the bombing.
However, Kamala would never have defunded USAID, so those million and a half people who are dying right now from starvation and disease would be alive.
So, honestly, not voting for Kamala was a bad idea.
But it’s still because of the DNC corporate donors that Trump is in office right now, because they refuse to allow the people a progressive alternative.
Blame is pointless. I am talking about what needs to change. Shouting at reluctant third party voters will do nothing but raise your blood pressure.
Campaigning for the downfall of Chuck Schumer, there’s a worthy cause.
Gaza would have been worse, because Netanyahu would have kept up the bombing.
Gaza would have been worse had Kamala won? That’s what you’re suggesting? Or have I misread?
Blame isn’t pointless. If you don’t blame people they’ll never feel responsibility. Not unlike a spoiled child who is never told they’ve fucked up.
Assigning responsibility is how people grow. It’s vitally important and blame for abdicating it is part of that.
That is something that people only understand at their own pace. Being shouted at, shamed by others, tends to reinforce the problem. It makes them defensive.
I get that venting can make the people who were right feel better, but that’s usually all it does.
For a good example, the left have been right about the problems in the DNC since 2015, and it has not helped whenever we point this out. Shouting at conservative Democrats has only made them more defensive, and alienated both sides from each other.
As usual, the solution is hard. Work towards building power and organisation from the bottom up, and don’t waste time hoping that the people who benefit from this mess will magically decide to do the right thing. I wish I hadn’t wasted so much time doing that.
Focus on what people need, pick three or four straightforward policies, and do everything you can to push those forward and promote your sincere effort to do so.
Don’t accept any funding from groups who want things you do not want, because that funding will be a chain holding you back.
Don’t lie.
Don’t. Lie.
People, the ones you want support from, aren’t fucking stupid. Don’t lie.
They would have been different, but Kamala wouldn’t have been different enough.
Biden won and Trump instigated a coup over it. Why is that treasonous rat not in prison? Would Kamala have put him in prison? Oh, she should have said so. I had no idea.
They would have been different, but Kamala wouldn’t have been different enough.
What an unbelievable load of bullshit.
We’re going to be trapped inside this pit for as long as you can’t realize what good leadership looks like, man.
Yup, it’s up to me!
The royal ‘you’.
Just a few more braindead platitudes and your preferred candidate will shoot to the top of the polls!
I’m just pissed off we let America have so much power over the world as it is. They’re one country, for fuck sake, not the World Police.
Silver lining: Trump just killed that role like a newborn baby in lake Michigan.
I think the argument is that voting for status quo candidates aren’t actually getting us those things, either. And any small incremental gains are quickly reverted the next time republicans are in power.
I think the argument is that voting for status quo candidates aren’t actually getting us those things, either. And any small incremental gains are quickly reverted the next time republicans are in power.
And you can only believe that if you ignore every bit of progress that has stuck around in the last thirty years.
Progress isn’t a straight line up. Like anything else it dips and wobbles. But it consistently moves upward.
Yeah there are always going to be things to make progress on. But to pretend that we are not in a better place on some of those issues now than we were thirty years ago is bafflingly silly.
As an example: In 1996, support for same-sex marriage was so low that congress passed and Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act, allowing states to ignore same-sex marriage licenses from other states in direct violation of the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution, and this was widely supported by the American people. In 2023, over 70% of Americans supported gay marriage while only 22% opposed. That number has dipped since, but not by much. In 2025, it was 68% support (88% of Democrats, 76% of Independents, and 41% of Republicans) while 29% opposed it.
That is an issue on which the American people have made significant progress. That progress hasn’t evaporated with alternating administrations. It ebbs and flows like literally everything, but over time it has improved.
Most are like this. Not all! Certainly some things consistently get worse, like wealth inequality. But to act like everything simply flip-flops between parties and that the Democrats are simply a ratchet that maintains the status quo and doesn’t let anything change just to let the next Republican make it worse is flat-out wrong.
Are Democrats largely spineless corporate shills? Yeah. But are they just as bad as Republicans? Fuck no. Go vote in primaries. Support candidates who will actually push for change. Giving up is pathetic.
What do you say to the people of WV who voted for Bernie in the 2016 Democrat primary, won him every single county, and 40k more votes than the runner up, but Clinton won the state? Should they give up, or comitt voter fraud and vote 110%?
I’m not sure if I completely follow.
Bill Clinton passed a law defining marriage between a man and a woman. And you are saying this is an example of progress made by a centrist candidate. Isn’t this the law doing the opposite, here?
And you are saying that Gavin Newsom, who has spoken out against trans rights, can do something similar? Like assuming he does the same thing, like pass a “Defense of gender” bill to allow other states to not recognize gender transitions.
Are you saying he will bring progress this way?
He’s saying that we’ve made progress in the 30 years since then, using that as an example of past public opinion.
And Newsom is an example of things ebbing, but the line of progress for trans rights has absolutely gone up overall.
Really cause we can’t have passports anymore
Thank God the progress understander has logged on to explain why it was good, actually, that the Democrats banned gay marriage
Thank God the progress understander has logged on to explain why it was good, actually, that the Democrats banned gay marriage
You clearly need to work on your reading comprehension if that’s what you think I was saying.
No, it was fucking horrible that Democrats banned gay marriage. It was fucking horrible that our society was okay with that. The entire point I’m making is that thirty years later we are living in a completely different WORLD on that front.
And I do agree with that.
I’m not American and we have the same issues here.
But the answer has to be putting in grassroots support and fighting the power where you can. By the time Biden and then Harris had secured the DNC nomination it was way too late.
I think right now the world at large needs big changes, and corporate power needs to be reigned in. But you have to engage with the possibilities in front of you, even though they suck. You can and should try to create new ones, but it’s a fight, and you have to treat it like one.
Almost as if you have to actually work to have nice things.
Who could imagine??
And any small incremental gains are quickly reverted the next time republicans are in power.
Because the next ‘status quo’ candidate isn’t good enough, so we piss away any progress because we didn’t get the perfect candidate and stay home from the election (again)
Edit: guess I touched a nerve with abstainers
I cannot express how much I fucking hate people like you right now
Yes because this is about your emotions and needing a satisfying story to direct your anger at, not reality.
People don’t like being insulted and taken advantage of. Why is that so hard to understand?
So your feelings are more important than the oppression of all the minoritzed groups?
You have piss poor reading comprehension. I suggest you enroll in an adult learning class at your local community college.
holy based
All they can do is harp on this strawman because deep down they’re ashamed.
You’re right. Liberals do love their straw men.
Like a literal child.
Elections are in some way a validation of the system. The elites point to the election any time someone complains about some policy. The entire system has been consistently getting worse regardless of who is in power for at least 30+ years. The only way we have to express our displeasure is to vote out the incumbent. I’m confident that even if Kamala had won, things would have gotten worse. Maybe they would be worse at a slower rate, but they would be worse. We need to see beyond electoral politics. Every time you vote, you are granting the rich permission to continue to fuck you regardless of who you voted for.
The majority of eligible voters already don’t vote. Low voter turnout does not embarrass the rich and powerful, it just makes the system easier to control. Fewer voters means fewer people to answer to, fewer people to influence, and fewer people to shuffle around through gerrymandering.
For fuck sake, they are consistently trying to make it harder for people to vote. They want lower turnout. They know their most loyal supporters will still vote. They’d much rather have their base be the only ones bothering to show up to the polls. They don’t care about legitimacy, they care about winning.
Every time you vote, you are granting the rich permission to continue to fuck you regardless of who you voted for.
And do you think that, by refraining from voting, you would somehow deny the rich that permission? That’s probably why all the openly corrupt, unapologetically authoritarian politicians go out of their way to ensure everyone is able to cast a ballot, right? Because they know that, the more people vote, the more permission the rich will have to fuck everyone. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for your enlightened contribution here.
Hey man there’s other ways to get their dick out of your ass. Lenin, Fidel and Mao figured it out.
Sure. Start the revolution. We’re all waiting for you.
That is… Unless you’re full of shit and won’t be the first one to raise your fist right? Just waiting for everyone else to do the dirty work of the revolution right? Why aren’t you in the papers yet for your revolutionary work?
Give it time bro, we’re all working on something together. Just don’t act like staying the course is the only choice
I assume all those “vote third party both side same” people were bots or Russian trolls. Obviously trump was always gonna be way worse
They aren’t. That’s an easy scapegoat. Influenced by Russian propaganda, sure, but we’re all influenced by propaganda. The vast majority are ordinary citizens, who are as convinced of the righteousness of their beliefs as anyone. Dismissing them, en masse, as bots and trolls isn’t helpful.
The fact is, many of them have very valid points. Where they need to be fought is, very specifically, when they encourage non-voting. There’s no good argument for non-voting, and it’s easy to defeat them there.
That’s fair and a much better response than mine above. I’m just a bit disenfranchised from it all, especially the non action and non voting suggestions of many on the left.
But you are right, it’s basically a center right and a far right party, and that super sucks and needs to be complained about a lot.
I don’t think they’re all trolls. I think there are a few right-wing trolls who got stupid people to buy into their astroturf campaign and then it took off from there. IIRC, one of the people in Mi openly admitted that he was a Republican and saw it was an easy wedge issue to get people not to vote.
Are you saying the entire dbzer0 instance is administered by a bot?
Well, he did leave you another option.
True. And with the way dbzer0 embraces red-fash because they both hate libs so much…
Ah yes the leftists who complain and cry at the federal election but take no interest in primaries, or joining the party or volunteering for their preferred candidate. American leftists just wanna sit on their ass and be handed a candidate, so that’s what you get.
Last one you guys didnt take part in so they picked the old white man, when you complained they gave you an educated black woman and you “leftists” went “eeew not that” while cheering for Bernie, another ancient white man.
You guys are a shit show of contradiction, shit slinging and infighting because nobody is good enough to be an ally anymore. This is why I blame all of you for Trump, the American right and the left. You guys suck, and the rest of the leftists in sane countries know it
“Leftists” that were saying this knowingly support trump. They’re accelrrationist who want conditions to get so bad that their ideas actually seem good.
Harris was a good candidate her platform was progressive and pragmatic. There was very very little to complain about with her. Thats why the right and “left” had to work extra hard to undermine her. Look at how hard all the .ml on this site were working pre election to convince people not to vote. It was insane, any post that was positive about biden or Harris of waltz was met with a barrage of insane accusation and misinfo.
But i dont think the left undermining dems was a deciding factor. I think it was rights pro trump narrative that was way to strong. Trump dominated every media space. If you were in male spaces pro trump quips were fucking everywhere you’d be watching a YouTuber who was non political for 10years then suddenly he would say something like “but trumps economy was damn good” or something about biden beinf asleep at the wheel. That stuff influences voters more than political ads and old media celebs.
Slightly better than fascist is a very low bar, and most of them aren’t clearing it.
By that logic, no one should have supported racist America and colonist Britain against the Nazis.
Damn you and your logic!
I’ve posted this a lot, and I’ll post it again.
Read up on Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority. Back in the 1970s televangelist Falwell decided to get involved in GOP politics. He had a simple formula; he’d send his people to any local Republican event. If twenty people total had shown up the last time the club picked the new county clerk, Falwell would have fifty there. Those dogcatchers and justices of the peace were soon Congress members and Senators and governors.
i won’t say i will “support” them per se, but i will tolerate them as long as they are fighting the nazis.
Western leadership didn’t tweet their every racist thought to the public. If they knew back then, that Churchill had more in common with Hitler than even his own top military officials, he wouldn’t be as highly regarded as he is today
Everything you wrote is wrong. Sorry, but I can’t say it any other way.
First, being racist was the default position for any Western leader in that era. FDR having Black combat troops was a hugely controversial idea. People knew what Churchill had done in India.
Read ‘The Autobiography of Malcom X.’ There were plenty of Black Americans who believed that the system was perfect. Plenty of colonized peoples thought that ‘the Mother Country’ had done them a favor by civilizing them.
If everything I wrote was wrong, why are you literally agreeing with me?
Contrarianism is a disease
Your first line is “Western leadership didn’t tweet their every racist thought to the public.”
My first line was “… being racist was the default position for any Western leader in that era.”
In what world is that me agreeing with you?
Also, at this moment I see your comment is -9 and mine is +24 points. I only mention to show that not many people agree with your interpretation of the facts.
Imagine a group thinking Palestine swung the needle at all on US elections. ROFL…
That is getting close to “flat earth” level of denial.
Kamela ran a horrible, lame, corporate platform.
Kamela ran a horrible, lame, corporate platform.
And in a reasonable world this wouldn’t have mattered. People are unreasonable.
Politics has always been a popularity contest? Did you not learn this in your grade school student council elections? You’re whining about human nature. People need to be inspired. They don’t give a shit about someone’s Senate voting record.
Yes. Exactly. Unreasonable.
Most importantly she committed the worst crime against the swing voters in the US by not being a man and not being white on top of that.
I think every other explanation is wishful thinking about just how sexist and racist the average US voter is.
You can blame lame platform or stance on Palestine, but I have a hard time believing that the explanation isn’t simply sexism + racism.
I don’t recall Biden having an inspiring campaign, he was simply a white male that wasn’t trump and he beat him.
Biden was also right after Trump’s first term, when anger was at its highest, and supposed to save us from covid.
You’re right if you look at the right wing attack narrative it was heavily focused on her being a progressive black women and all this scaremongering around her dei hiring and making things unfair for white people.
Yeah, she was the “perfect” candidate for Trump’s campaign of fear mongering.
Have the republicans even bothered to give a name for 2028?
Just like the musk/trump split was visible miles away, any figure running for president after trump will inevetably be shit on by trump and his media aparatus because of his narcissitic insecurities.
The best thing that could happen for republicans right now is trump dying because its only going to get more costly to not lick those dress shoes.
They haven’t dared. If they manage to convince Trump to follow the Constitution for a change, whoever his successor is will have to have his blessing.
So we’re just going to hash this out every single day for the next 2 years, huh?
Edit: I do find it interesting how many replies to this comment are vague enough that you can’t determine which side of this argument they’re on, but I guess I did start it myself.
And yet still in 2028 we’re going to have people arguing between the milquetoast Democrat and a republican who wants to make camps for undesirables and telling anyone left of center to stay home.
And we’re also going to have any centrist telling people that they should’ve spoken up before, while telling people to shut up, and accept the inevitable milquetoast Democrat now. I remember how much we used to make fun of FOX News for whataboutism. How the hell did the Democrat voters become the party of “What about Trump?”
How the hell did the Democrat voters become the party of “What about Trump?”
It’s not “what about trump” it’s “vote for the person closest to you or get the one the farthest away”
I could give a fuck less about trump, and I’m going to be hungover the day after he chokes to death on a hamburder. I care about advancing left wing goals, and crying you didn’t get your way and staying home only hurts that.
Grow the fuck up and actually understand how electoral politics works in this country, because it seems you lack a basic understanding of how the two party system works. We have 2 viable options for the presidency, and people need to come to grips with not getting their perfect candidate because perfect is the enemy of good. If you don’t believe me, look around and tell me what of the current trash fire would have also been done by a milquetoast dem?
I understand the US electoral system very well. For example, in the WV Dem primary, Bernie won every single county, and 40k more votes than Clinton. Which is why Clinton won the state. And it does seem to be “What about Trump” since you can’t give me a reason to vote for a milquetoast Democrat without including Trump in your equation. Also, both Obama and Biden deported way more immigrants than Trump, so if you’re trying to harm reduction, Trump is a better option for that. Stop letting Democrats that want to increase funding for ICE, the border wall, are for regime change wars, and deport more immigrants than Trump be the spoiler candidate.
Also, both Obama and Biden deported way more immigrants than Trump, so if you’re trying to harm reduction, Trump is a better option for that.
Man, I can’t wait to come back to this statement at the end of the year, DaMummy. I’m sure the guy who is mass rounding up random people (instead of rejecting people at the border) and murdering people in the street will TOTALLY be the harm reduction president, no matter that 2025 was the deadliest year ice has had since 2004, trump is about ✨harm reduction✨
The fact that this and bitching about Bernie after 10 years is your primary argument tells me you’re not worth conversing with. I wanted Bernie to win and I was mad about it too. But keeping your hardon for Bernie is only harming the causes you say you support. At least the right is open about their hatred for their fellow man, you’re hiding behind being upset at the system and arguing that this fucking president is about harm reduction at all, which is laughable.
Please do come back. I would prefer after his 4 year term, but I don’t know if lemmy will be around, or either of us(…and one other guy) but just to set a standard, how many deportations were there under Obama, aka, Deporter in Chief, and how many were there under Biden?
Biden had more raw numbers, but can you tell me who was incarcerated, picked up off the street or refused at the border in those numbers?
If you’re comparing raw numbers and not what each one is, I don’t care to continue the argument because you’re focused on one statistic that can be used disingenuously (as it is here) to conflate two different ways of handling things. Because if you think 1 border return or incarcerated person is the same as someone being snatched off the street, your opinion is meaningless to me. I’m not defending any one of those, but comparing them is dishonest as hell.
Unpopular opinion. When it comes to electoral politics, that centrist is right. Voting won’t fix anything. Only better candidates and parties will. That is, of course, outside of some sort of revolution or cultural awakening. And if that’s your plan, shit or get off the pot.
The general election is absolutely the wrong time to protest vote.The right time to protest vote is in the primary. The primary is the wrong time to think about running. The right time to think about running is all the years before the primary. All things many actually on the left struggle to achieve. And then being incensed when a party that doesn’t represent you doesn’t represent you. Who could have known?
We’re good about protesting on the left. Perhaps to a fault. But outside maybe the DSA. We suck at getting people we would want to vote for, in organizations that stand a chance of winning. You can’t effectively elect someone who wants to represent you if there’s no one capable of winning that wants to. And it isn’t a catch 22. Collectively a lot are sleeping on basic actions we should be taking.
Forget third parties till we reform the voting system. They think we are cuckoo. Maybe we should start acting like cuckoos. Maybe we should stop being the ones being cucked, supporting and raising politicians that don’t represent us. And start doing the cucking ourselves. Like the DSA. Put people we want to vote for in any major party primary we can. Yes, even Republican. Till then they aren’t going to represent us if they don’t have to.
As long as the neo-liberal leaders of the Democrats continue to play the same games with the left as they have been since before I can vote, yes, we’ll have to run into this argument every single damn time elections come up. When they decide to embrace progressive policies instead of just jigging the bait for the leftists to get their votes. When the Dems win, they didn’t need the left. When they lose, it’s all the left’s fault. I’m not playing that sadistic little game anymore.
The older I get the more relevant this scene from ‘Life Of Brian’ becomes.
The dumber the dog, the more repetitions it takes to teach it.
whether you agree with them or not, shaming and ridiculing them is not going to make them agree with you.
I agree completely. Though I personally practice harm reduction at the ballot box, I don’t believe that brow-beating people who express a reluctance to vote for a lesser evil into practicing harm reduction is an effective means of garnering their vote. Though it’s easy to become frustrated with non-voters or third-party voters and place the blame on them for fascism taking over, the responsibility is really spread across the whole population, and most importantly our electeds and party officials who have consistently failed to present a positive and opposing narrative to the fascists.
The meme is unironically true though. I hate the candidates that the dnc puts forward, but I hate the opposition more. 2016 and 2024 kinda shows how the meme is unfortunately rather accurate, and I heard plenty of people advocating for not voting for Kamala because of stances that trump was objectively worse on.
The problem is that the DNC neo-liberal establishment has been playing games with the left for a long time now. They have blamed them for defeats, neglected them for victories, and say “Vote Blue No Matter Who” even while they’re literally considering a guy not much better than the incumbent fascists. I for one am sick of it and they have shown to be not much better than the opposition in terms of policies, candidates, and ideology.
I had tankies tell me that by voting Kamala I sold out Palestine to “save myself”
Even though Trump was worse on Palestine…
If Trump runs again you’ve fucked up. He can’t just run for a third term.
Trump can be long dead and buried, yet I feel like he’s still going to be running in every US election for the next few decades. The majority of his supporters have only doubled down on his brand of politics, so there will always be another Trump.
Yeah, he’s going to be the new Reagan they pray to for decades.
My concern is that if he were to drop dead tomorrow that a large portion of his followers will just say something dumb like he’s gone undercover in an attempt to take over the deep state. And then proceed to add him in as a write in ballot for the next several decades.
Those votes would just get thrown out in that case, so if that’s what they want to do, they are welcome to do so.
Yeah, that would actually be a great scenario for us. Dead Trump splitting the Republican vote for the next 2 decades would be chef’s kiss.
An element of what you say is true, but he’s also a cult of personality that they’re really going to struggle to replicate. Trump literally only cares about himself and has taken zero (0) steps to develop successors. Right now, JD Vance is poised to lead the movement, and he has the personality of a potato
That fat, orange, cheeseburger-powered fuck will die before he could run for a third term
Here in Texas, our leading candidates for Senate (James Talarico) and governor (Gina Hinojosa) are taking refreshingly reality-based positions on Gaza and seem to be developing campaigns aimed directly against billionaires. I like what I’ve been hearing
We have 2 years to find a candidate who doesnt try to fix systemic and financial issues with changing social structures.
