Incel behavior includes using “female” as a noun when talking about women. Using “female” as an adjective is perfectly normal and common. It is fine to write “female coworker” instead of “coworker who is a woman.”
Some people are hypersensitive to wrongspeak.
I don’t think people are bothered by “female coworker”, which is perfectly normal. It’s the reference to a “female-only” community, when the actual com is called WomensStuff and describes itself as “women only” and “a women’s community”.
Maybe it’s just me, but in female-only community, I’m using female as part of a composed adjective. I’d say male-only community too, it just feels more natural. In fact, in an earlier comment I wrote women only, and then writing man only felt SO bad that I changed both to female and male.
Now that I think about it it’s probably because I used man instead of men. I’ll change both back but OOP miiight have followed my logic? Idk
In trans-inclusive spaces we use “woman,” in reference to the gender, as opposed to female, which usually designates sex.
Like a nature documentary, for example: “The female meetkat seeks out her pack,” as opposed to “The woman meetkat hollers at the girls.”
Ok. I somehow missed that. I scanned for other uses of “female” a few times but was blinded to the one right next to coworker.
Not every female is a woman. Some of them are ladies or girls.
I don’t know what to else to say, the community describes itself as “women only” and he described it as being “female only”. You could (but probably shouldn’t) take it up with that community if you really feel their “women only” rule excludes girls. But I’m not sure I see how it excludes “ladies” which are generally considered a subset or synonym of “women”.
To continue your point, it’s true that not every’ female’ is a woman, indeed not every female is human. You get female seahorses, penguins and even female plants (dioecious ants like asparagus or holly). But for most English speakers, in most situations, female is an adjective and not a noun. So, you might ‘have a female friend’ , but you’re not usually ‘friends with a female’.
In my experience, the only linguistic situations where it is common to use female as a noun are 1) in scientific writing “the male mantis is decapitated by the larger female”, and even their is usually just to avoid repeating the name of species. Or, 2) within groups of akward men. I’m not sure if they’re trying to sound intelligent by aping scientific terminology, or are so removed from regular contact with women that they see them almost as another species.
Obviously it doesn’t mean that everyone who talks about ‘females’ is an incel, but its use is highly linked to people who spend time in communities that don’t involve a lot of women. Just as not everyone who uses “bogan” is Australian, but most of them are. Or, have spent a lot of time in Australian-adjacent situations.
Incel behavior includes using “female” as a noun when talking about women.
Sure: A -> B != B -> A
You … know that, right?
I have no idea what you’re trying to communicate, but I do understand the logical expression you used.
Probably trying to say that just because incels (allegedly) use the term “female,” it doesn’t mean that a person using that word must then be an incel.
Thanks. I’m not saying the poster is an incel. I’m just saying the objection to misuse of “female” has been primed by incels (and Ferengi). Without incels, there wouldn’t be such a knee jerk revulsion to it.
i really don’t even understand the concept of policing other people’s language use.
it’s like saying people who don’t have perfect grammar are stupid.
It’s not about the grammar. It’s the underlying mindset that might lead to specific word choices. If someone exclusively refers to women as bitches, that may be because they don’t hold much respect for women.
More subtly, if someone always refers to women as girls but rarely to men as boys, it could be telling us that they think of women as immature and less like fully formed adults.
For the word females, it’s more subtle again. It would be normal to refer to animals as male and female. For people we have the gender-specific terms man and woman. If you refer to women as females but not men as males, you may be revealing an underlying dehumanizing attitude. This is corroborated by what seems to be a common trope of incels calling women females.
It’s just…the internet I guess?
Go into the various “Ask” communities, and you’ll see things like this constantly:
Women of Lemmy, what’s something that…?
As a man, I …
Americans of Lemmy, what is your favorite…?
As a European, I…
Definitely mildly infuriating when people just butt in when they’re explicitly not the target audience of the question. If I’m somehow doing that with this reply, lol, I apologetically appreciate the irony.
I’ve accidentally commented in that community more than once when it was a generic post…but the top comment nowadays is a reminder of the rules.
Very, very different than the examples you describe
It is significantly more likely to read:
“Europeans of Lemmy……?”
“As an American……!”
I’ll take your word for it, though I assume it is the case. Like I said…it’s just the internet doing what it does (for better or worse).
“As an American” (though speaking only for myself) when I see those, I don’t even go into them because my opinion wasn’t solicited. I also don’t throw out my opinions in non-American news/politics communities for the same reason. Also, I wish that was a two-way street.
Also, I wish that was a two-way street.
That would be nice! I understand that everyone probably feels entitled to comment, given the amount of US-centric content one is bombarded with, and the shit-show our country has descended into.
Still, I see a disturbing number of upvoted comments that are just anti-Americans (i.e., not disparaging the government, but the citizenry). Shitting on people for where they were born is as valid as astrology, and nationality is not a good indicator of moral fiber.
Is that why US political posts are always filled with people from other countries?
That’s because US politics is interfering in other countries.
every countries politics interferes with its neighbors.
USA just has global reach. So does China and a few other countries.
Same idea
As a professional opinionator, I…
you get paid for internet comments?
The issue is that people want a public forum to be private and controlled as such.
Like if you go to a public park and want to kick out anyone who isn’t a part of your party you want ot have there… the issue is you. it’s not the other users of the public park. but there are stupid and entitled people who would host a party in a public space and then get pissed off other people are using the space.
that isn’t how it works. if you want a private party you need to have it on a private piece of land. which is totally fine. just like you can geo-IP block access to your website if you wanted.
In a public park, you can absolutely ask random people to leave your party area. Not the park, but the space you are using. Double so if you’ve gone through the official channels to reserve that section.
And that goes both ways: If someone is having an event and one inserts themselves where they’re clearly not invited, then that person very much has issues respecting others’ boundaries.
It all boils down to people respecting each other.
you’d also be an asshole. you don’t own the park. you have no exclusive rights access it or use it.
and tying it up for personal use and going around kicking out other well meaning people is just you being a selfish dick.
if you want exclusive access… hold your party/event in a private space.
it’s not that hard of a concept… but people want the privileges of exclusivity without the costs. and get butthurt over it for some stupid reason. if i wanted a party that was exclusive to my friends/invitees only I would never hold it in a public space.
i’ve inserted myself into plenty of events at parks. usually it’s only the dipshit karen types that have an issue with it. most people don’t care because they aren’t anxious/controlling types and they understand that their event in a public park means they will have to be welcome to strangers. especially when your event spills over into a walkway or heavily trafficked space.
Ummm… what do you think the park picnic space rentals are?
Also, parks with camping have reserved spots.
Seems to me either you don’t get out much, or you are one of those assholes that refuses to leave a space someone already paid to rent.
That person is giving me “I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you!” vibes. lol.
They’re kind of being an asshole all over the thread. I don’t know why women asking men to not comment in a women’s forum has them so hot and bothered, but it sure has them on the warpath lol.
Probably 'cause they commented to the same thread.
Nobody posted it!?
I enjoy that community as a non-participant. A user’s decision to merely interact can reveal much more than they intended to reveal - super interesting to me. Just the existence of the community pits dudes with insecurities against their own lack of self control or social tact, for all to see.
Future me might comment there too quickly after overlooking the community name. I’ll get a warranted Tsk and I’ll see myself out. No big deal. It’s not a kick in the nuts unless I make it one.
I have seen men comment there, get the reminder, and then FLIP THE FUCK OUT. As if every part of the internet should have to put up with them.
A community like that is hard to monitor, and they are pretty chill about people making honest mistakes like coming in from /all. I feel like it’s obvious (or very quickly becomes obvious) which comments are mistakes, and which are butthurt males. They don’t seem to be hostile to the honest mistakes.
Whenever I see that happen, I think “wow, thanks for showing why this community needs that rule in the first place”. If dudes were more chill about women trying to build their own spaces, then perhaps it wouldn’t be necessary to have such a hard rule.
That’s community’s mods are super nice. Probably too nice TBH.
…But yeah. Follow community rules, or post elsewhere. What is so hard about that?
I think it’s hard simply because browsing by /all, or even by communities you follow and then just in your main thread, is not set up to highlight the community or it’s rules. If something hits the front page of /all I’m rarely digging into the communities specific rules or even where it’s coming from to an extent. Only to say, it’s a learned behavior to care about the communities specifically in this site aggregator system.
All of that being said, people of course should respect community rules and learn the behavior of identifying what room they’re in before engaging with that community. I’m just not surprised when these flimsy barriers fail.
Is the best behavior to block any community you don’t or can’t participate in? I personally don’t love that behavior because I like seeing what everyone is discussing in threads, but that’s a reasonable solution. Obviously my current strat is just reading the community before posting (like not commenting negatively about Star Gate getting a new season in the star gate community as an example that happened today lol).
Wandering in, missing the rule sign, getting corrected, and apologizing is fine. I’ve done it; the mods there couldn’t have been nicer about it. It’s not an ideal system, no, but it works well enough; it’s the mods shouldering that burden more than anything.
…The problem is when the guys are corrected, yet keep talking anyway. Which I see happen a lot.
There is no excuse for that.
Is the best behavior to block any community you don’t or can’t participate in? I personally don’t love that behavior because I like seeing what everyone is discussing in threads, but that’s a reasonable solution.
I feel extremely mixed about this, yeah. I feel weird even talking about it.
I personally don’t love that behavior because I like seeing what everyone is discussing in threads, but that’s a reasonable solution.
The women’s space… doesn’t prohibit lurking? On one hand, the community is public, and I’m curious about the perspective in the discussions. I’m interested in understanding them so I can be a more respectful person myself.
I upvote their posts so they get more exposure.
…But I don’t want to violate their privacy either. Blocking is reasonable. Right now, I just upvote them but don’t enter the threads.
Obviously my current strat is just reading the community before posting (like not commenting negatively about Star Gate getting a new season in the star gate community as an example that happened today lol).
Read the room, yeah.
IMO TV fandoms shouldn’t worship their material. Negative discussion is allowed, otherwise the space gets toxic.
In fact, this kinda happened to one of my personal fandom spaces, /r/thelastairbender: among other things, they idolize ATLA (the original series) like a diety, to the point where anything different (including other material like Korra or the Netflix adaption) is demonized. Deeper stuff like the novels, fanfics or speculative lore is not welcome either.
That sucks. It’s all too common; the Star Wars fandom (for instance) is notorious for it. And its why some negativity and ‘outsider perspectives’ should be welcomed in such spaces.
The women’s space is different though. It’s basically a shelter from the shit this group puts up with IRL and online, so being more sensitive makes sense.
I completely agree. I just wish I could systematically prevent myself from making any mistake lol, or like anyone from making the first mistake.
Anyone doing it intentionally is a dick and should be blocked. This is just an interesting problem for the platform we’re on and I’m excited to see how the Internet develops overtime to fix this.
I just wish I could systematically prevent myself from making any mistake lol, or like anyone from making the first mistake.
…I guess we theoretically could, via a Lemmy or Piefed PR, heh.
As an example, we could implement an opt-in feature that pops-up community rules before one is allowed to post. Kinda like Discord, but less obnoxious.
That’s one reason why I like this place. If something about the site’s UX design in problematic, there’s somewhere to go to get it improved. With any corporate social media, your only assurance is that it will get worse with time.
I think that’s a great idea.
how do you measure someone else’s intention behind an internet post? other than your own arbitrary judgement of it?
I mean, I like the other reply to this comment as well, but if a man posts in an all women community twice in quick succession after being warned it’s pretty easy to assume their intentions are bad - right? Like there are things people can say or do that are so engrained in the behavior of bad faith actors that you can kinda spot them.
My point was just to reinforce that I agree with the notion that people can maliciously attempt to ruin a community or discourage individuals/groups from posting and that they should be banned. “No Nazi’s in the bar” kinda thing.
That’s kinda the idea behind moderation.
It’s why it’s best done in small communites, as the narrow context narrows the scope of the arbitrary judgement.
I think it’s hard simply because browsing by /all, or even by communities you follow and then just in your main thread, is not set up to highlight the community or it’s rules. If something hits the front page of /all I’m rarely digging into the communities specific rules or even where it’s coming from to an extent. Only to say, it’s a learned behavior to care about the communities specifically in this site aggregator system.
Bingo. This is the classic ‘read the sidebar’ crap from reddit. most users aren’t reading hte sidebar because the side bar doesn’t exist for them when they click in front the front page.
or the ‘this post is already been made why don’t you search instead of making new posts’. because search is stupid and useless for the most part, and a thread from six months ago is likely not relevant today.
because that isn’t how a public internet site works.
if you go to a public park and hold a women only event, and get upset men are in the park and wander over and are curious what is going on… and get upset about those men then the problem is you and your unrealistic expectations of exclusivity.
if you want a private exclusive type of space… then make it private and exclusive. that way you can control who views and interacts with the event and even hire security to keep the ‘wrong’ people out.
like if the mods want to auto-ban everyone who doesn’t personally verify with them their womanhood, that’s their business. but expecting people to self-police their gender is a dumb expectation.
personally i have a dick but i don’t really identify as being a ‘man’. nor do identify as being a ‘woman’. i’m just a person. so am i therefore allowed to commentate? or is the mods who determine my sex/gender status, regardless of how i perceive myself?
To correct your ‘public park’ analogy, the space is public. Anyone can wander in. But it has clear signs posted at the only entrance saying its a space for women to speak, please be quiet, otherwise.
Missing the sign and apologizing is understandable.
But but if you wander in and knowingly violate that rule by electing to speak up, that is no one’s fault but yours.
personally i have a dick but i don’t really identify as being a ‘man’. nor do identify as being a ‘woman’. i’m just a person. so am i therefore allowed to commentate? or is the mods who determine my sex/gender status, regardless of how i perceive myself?
…A primary reason for that rule is basically “don’t be a dick about this being a women’s only space, please.”
If you feel you qualify as a woman to speak in the space, go for it! That’s the idea. That’s the spirit of the rule. But you specifically say "nor do [I] identify as being a ‘woman’. "
Making an issue out of it is precisely what is unwanted. So is trying to blame the space for your deliberate choice.
I don’t get why this is so hard to grasp. It’s simple.
just because i feel that way doesn’t mean the people in charge feel that way.
it’s just part of life. mods gotta mod. this entire post to me just seems like moral grandstanding/public shaming.
and further, i commented in that thread too. i came from the front page of lemmy.world. there were no rules posted. there was no signage. but i didn’t get called out by the mods because i ‘type like a girl’ and often pass as a woman on the internet.
I’m not trying to grandstand. My issue is with these presumptions:
like if the mods want to auto-ban everyone who doesn’t personally verify with them their womanhood, that’s their business. but expecting people to self-police their gender is a dumb expectation.
They’re not checking you at the door. They aren’t auto banning anyone. They very politely point out the sidebar to a few posters, then request them to stay quiet; that’s the extent of it.
…If you don’t make an issue of that, it’s not an issue.
if you want a private exclusive type of space… then make it private and exclusive. that way you can control who views and interacts with the event and even hire security to keep the ‘wrong’ people out.
But this is unrealistic, as then they wouldn’t get nearly as much participation in the space. It’s a public gathering spot, by choice.
Again, my specific problem is with commenters that are shown the rules by the mods, yet willingly choose to ignore them.
Just because you think rules are unrealistic does not give you a right to ignore them once asked. That’s how every community here works. Yet they seem to get tons of posters carrying that bad attitude, with that same line of argument.
That’s what makes me bristle. Respecting community rules (once known) is basic human civility, and people are perfectly capable of ‘self-policing’ that. I do not like the rejection of that + the policing of others in its place.
The public park is owned by everyone, not just the women. You would be correct to be upset by men being excluded from this public space.
Comms are not public assets. Your use of any comm is entirely at the pleasure of the administrators of that comm, and their designated moderators.
Your opinion on the way they implement and enforce their rules is entirely irrelevant within their comm.
My suggestion would be to do what you would for any other comm whose behavior you do not support and/or whose rules you find reprehensible: block them and move on.
they should make their community private then. that way they can control who virtually walks in the door, so to speak.
as is, there is no door. it’s a public space that anyone can access.
But we are allowed, and encouraged to read it, just not post. It is public.
You are entitled to your opinion. They are entitled to theirs. I am entitled to my opinion: what they do with their space and who they allow into it is no concern of yours. Mind your own business, and leave them to mind theirs.
Lets say you go to a public building and in that public building there is a room marked women only, lets say in that room are some toilets, would you go in that room? Since it’s a public space in the same building as all the other public space, the only difference is that portion of the space is understood to be only for women, or those that identify as women.
You may stumble in accidentally, and you will be gently corrected, but if you keep stumbling in, it’s gonna start to seem weird, and the corrections will get less gentle.
Perhaps this is an exception, but I’ve disregarded that rule to use the building’s only baby changing table a bunch of times.
Yeah, that’s fine, a bit outside the metaphor as there is no analog.
Basically just that socially enforced boundaries are a thing even in public spaces.
a lot of places have rebranded those to ‘family restrooms’. which is great.
yeah i would. esp if the men’s room was locked.
i have gone into plenty of women’s rooms before. i don’t really give a shit about gender/sex rules when it comes to not shitting my pants.
sometimes when i came out a woman got all huffy, but they never did anything about it. because it’s pretty stupid ultimately. everyone has to shit. and most people dont’ care women use the man’s room.
but i don’t live in gender exclusivity/anxiety land like many people do. most gender exclusivity people have identity issues hence they need to police other people’s gender and sex and make massive generalizations about others gender and sex because they lack self-awareness and understanding and confidence.
I agree that the guy in the post is mildlyinfuriating at best, and much more likely a douche (never hear a woman use male as a noun like that, a very particular shibboleth). But I’m not sure I love. This community becoming half posts picking on specific users. Should we blur the usernames? Otherwise its an easy path to brigading and bullying.
never hear a woman use male as a noun like that
I heard ‘male’ the same place I heard ‘female’, and this wasn’t surprising. I’m jealous at your certainty that you haven’t yet and thus never will. Apparently, though, “there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy”
That’s on me, there’s a few typos in my reply. I was just saying I’ve never heard it, not that I think I will never hear it ever. And genuinely the only menfolk I’ve heard use it earnestly were akward teenage boys, and the older lads mocked them and told them they sounded lame.
This is in the UK (and ten years ago), so maybe it’s much more common in Australia or the US or something. But from the reaction it generally gets online, I get the feeling it’s generally looked down on (outside of humor, or sci-fi).
same. it’s so weird to me when people pretend like women don’t act this way… and can’t be sexist douchebags.
there are entire media outlets past and present that are basically dedicated to female douchery spouting crazy sexist hateful shit. but it’s normalized and not seen as a threat to society.
Ya I don’t think folks need to be called out twice in a row in two different places. This would be a pathway for repeat offenders who refuse to acknowledge feedback perhaps?
Oh good. I don’t follow this com, another comment tipped me off.
While I do enjoy a little bit of chaos and schadenfreude, it would be nice to block out user names. Call out the mistake, not the person.
Most people here are lovely, but it only takes one match to start a fire. Might as well address some bullshit in these comments since I’m gonna get trolled by incels anyway…
side note: I’m not a mod there.
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The women’s com is trans and non-binary inclusive. Anyone who feels at home there (and is respectful) is welcome.
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It’s not all bitching about men. Looking at the last twenty posts, one was about men and two were related to men. We talk about pads and health and essays and positivity memes and do fun activities on fridays.
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I support men making their own support groups. Although the internet itself often feels like a menfolk support group(to me,) I’m sure there are plenty of things an easy to find, curated space, could offer men who want to be just a little more vulnerable, knowing they would be supported by the mods if any toxic women came in to devalue their opinions and experience.
I support men making their own support groups. Although the internet itself often feels like a menfolk support group(to me,) I’m sure there are plenty of things an easy to find, curated space, could offer men who want to be just a little more vulnerable, knowing they would be supported by the mods if any toxic women came in to devalue their opinions and experience.
They should. the issue with this is they get branded as hate-groups or for ‘losers’. more or less automatically irregalrdless of what kind of community they are.
the bigger issue is that generally people think men are evil by default, and women are good by default. and that’s not a cultural assumption most folks are willing to look past.
There are support groups for men out there that are not generally charectirized as toxic. Toxic folks may attack men for going to them, but I can tell you before I transitioned I used to go to one, and no one ever verbally attacked me for it.
the bigger issue is that generally people think men are evil by default, and women are good by default. and that’s not a cultural assumption most folks are willing to look past.
I consider myself a feminist and I vehemently disagree with that take, nor does it reflect in any way the commonly held views in the relevant communities.
Women and men are people. All people hold the capacity for good and evil within them. The real differences are 1) our respective socialization, and 2) the way we are perceived and treated by society based on our gender. That’s not an individual issue, but a systemic one.
I’ve been part of a few support groups for men that regularly received appreciation from women specifically because they were aimed at helping men in recognition of this fact, and thus didn’t revolve into inceldom and gender war nonsense.
Can you name some of the groups?
Don’t make them a hate-group for losers, then? This speaks more about the places you’re hanging out at.
I mean, there’s stuff like dull men’s club where it’s just dudes talking about average life stuff like buying new tools
I do enjoy dull men’s club
Is there a rule that women aren’t allowed to post there?
A lot of male-only spaces descend into places to hate on women rather than proactively dealing with issues within our own community. It takes active moderation for these support groups to not become hate groups. If it stays focused on healthy self improvement (not hawking supplements and talking about a person being high or low “value”) and providing emotional support for men, it can avoid the “hate group” moniker.
The “loser” thing is actually a symptom of why we need spaces like we’re talking about. There will likely always be people out there who judge people for needing help and emotional support, especially men(thank you toxic masculinity), but the goal should be an overall less toxic society and greater acceptance that everyone needs help at some point.
Your “bigger issue” is not something I think I have experienced, I don’t think I’ve ever had someone assume I’m evil because I’m male. That sounds like an internal belief that you’re projecting on society, something that should be looked at in detail and questioned thoroughly in a therapeutic setting. Looking at other comments you’ve made on similar subjects, you seem to be someone who needs a place where your views can be safely challenged by reality, which is another way of saying we need better support groups for men like you, not just incel groups where you reinforce each other’s toxic beliefs.
I understand that this may come off as insulting, I just want you to know that that’s not my intent. I think you are lacking in self worth and that is leading you to project toxicity into the world. I don’t think you’re hopeless, mostly because I used to be on a similar course as you. I got therapy and learned to better love and value myself and I started seeing a lot more positivity in my interactions with people of all genders. The first step is wanting to change things.
The other reply is kinda accurate but I just wanted to give lived experience that the way I get treated is as if I’m more dangerous and more aggressive by default (where obviously a woman will get taken less seriously and be more in danger by default), but it still feels pretty bad to have people feel less safe around me when I have done literally nothing to cause it. I’m not blaming someone for saying they feel less safe around men, I would even agree, but that means the reality is many men who have done literally nothing feel the distrust and unease. The outright hatred I think is an online only thing, I’ve never heard anyone say anything similar irl.
Also I might say if you really want to help them to not discount their experiences, that’s how we ended up with people like Andrew tate. The hatred does exist but almost always by a very loud very small minority online. And I’m sure the hatred does exist irl, from people who had really bad experiences with men, or they’re just jerks. That can be reality, and when you get blamed by those women it’s painful. Women are just people, and there are good and bad women because there are good and bad (or maybe just hurt) people.
I think the “men evil”, “woman good” is just worded to strongly but is generally true (not actually true, but people considered it to be true).
Its more “men dangerous”, “men threatening” and not “evil”. A man in a women’s bathroom is a threat. A women in a mans bathroom is there because there was a line for the woman’s bathroom. The actual reason for those scenarios does not matter, the man will be seen as an invasion and a perpetrator. I have personally experienced examples of neutral situations as well (going to the woman’s bathroom as a man without negative reactions) but the general discourse about the topic is pretty clear.
generally people think men are evil by default, and women are good by default
i think this is a misunderstanding of the dynamic
we see this play out pretty regularly with the “not all men” arguments and the like: men getting annoyed by women being careful, and taking “you could hurt me” behaviour as some kind of insult. the statement is true: not all men are evil to women, but any man could be evil to women and thus need to be treated as though it’s possible in order to protect themselves
And any person could be a vile murderer paedo, but assuming everyone is and treating them that way would be unreasonable.
Oops, prejudice is still prejudice, even if it’s targeted at the “right” people.
“You could hurt me” is an insult. The amount of men who hurt women, is low. Its really fucking low. But for some reason, we all have to carry the water for that low number.
Its sexist. Its no different than if I said I didnt want to be alone with a woman because she might claim I raped her. How likely is that? Not very. And I say that as someone that it did happen to. The idea that men are an inherent risk, is sexist. And Im just sick of pretending its not.
I you cross the street from someone because they are black, we call that racist. But when its man, all of sudden the excuses come thick and fucking fast.
So? Any women could be evil to men as well. Should we therefore insult them by claiming they ‘could’ hurt us every time we encounter one?
It is a stereotype. I get being cautious. There are many awful men around. But keeping your distance from all of them until they have proven their innocence is not really a way to live.
If women are straight up not interacting with you because they think you could hurt them you need to reassess what kind of vibes you’re giving off. There’s nothing wrong with keeping people of either gender at arms length until you’re sure they’re trustworthy. It’s not an insult, they just don’t know you. Women generally have a lot more to worry about in that regard because men are typically bigger and stronger than they are. As a man on the smaller end of the spectrum I deal with some of those worries myself. It’d be great if we could all just trust each other by default but that’s not the world we live in. People are allowed to just go around being psychos until they do something really bad, and you don’t want to be the victim when that happens.
Removed by mod
You could be more supportive. Men have issues specifically hurting them too, and not dismissing that fact won’t make women’s issues less relevant.
Could we just be more supportive to each other?
Absolutely! I encourage support spaces for everyone. I’m calling out the irony that this user is up and down this thread arguing against the women’s community and spouting female priviledge ideology, while now complaining that men can’t have the same thing… or else people will complain and spout male priviledge ideology.
There are many ways that sexism hurts men, which is why I’m down with support spaces and actively discourage all men bullshit when I see it.
Claiming those spaces doomed from the start, because of people behaving exactly like Tittyfrog here, is bad faith as hell.
because that would be gay. part of the evil homosexual agenda we must stop!
it’s manly/womanly/hetero to beat up on other people and harass them for their issues and problems. or at least, to pretend that their problems are less than those of this more oppressed group. plus it feels really good to call people names rather than acknowledge their humanity and/or their fallibility.
but hey, we all know that billionaires are the most oppressed group on the planet. they are the true victims.
That first sentence is not a good look homie. I say this as a cis-het dude.
Edit: respect for not deleting the comment though.
You’re the only one here harassing people for their issues and problems and pretending they are less than those of a more oppressed group.
Wow. That was rude
Calling out shitty people isn’t rude.
oh hey, it’s the person what from the op screen cap. Here doing an encore performance. Everyone clap.
Thank you! I have mental health problems so even negative attention is fulfilling.
AND I don’t think rehashing someone’s minor mistake for public theater is cool without the user names removed. People were shitting all over him when he already got clapped back, so I said something.
I support men making their own support groups.
While women are allowed to keep men out of their groups, it doesn’t work the other way around. Even gay men’s groups have trouble keeping invasive women from changing the nature of their groups.
As you can see, women have trouble keeping men out, too.
I’d like to see your data.
I’d like to see your data.
Just try finding a men’s opinion group that successfully bans women.
So you don’t have data.
Whataboutism is a non-sequitor that disrupts and discourages productive discussion.
I haven’t noticed anything like this online. I only one time saw a woman post in a MSM community and it was to ask a question, which was fine.
-
Segregated anything is fucking dumb. Segregated internet communities are especially fucking dumb because anyone can be anyone on the internet.
Congratulations, you’re the man they’re trying to forget exists for 10 fucking minutes a day in their off time!
Who said I was a guy? Again, anyone can be anyone on the internet.
glances at profile
Def a guy
Funny how some people downvote even the most innocuous comments.
You can assume my gender or race all you want. It doesn’t make you right.
I downvoted because it was a deflection that didn’t address the very real issue presented to you
The issue being what? And how did I deflect? I refuted their comment, that’s not a deflection, that’s showing how dumb it is to claim you are anything since people can claim to be anything on the internet.
Now I’m a ghost and will start a ghost only community.
So based and repelled bro. You’re for sure postmaxxing. Absolutely mewing on the haters. more dunks than a 90s kangaroo. You sure told those bitches.
Anyway to be serious for a moment: “the internet is full of wreckers so why even bother” is a fucking wrecker argument. You are the problem. Do you see?
What the hell is a wrecker?
I think you’ve replied to the wrong person since my comment is about assuming genders of people on the internet not wreckers on the internet whatever that might be.
I am in full support of the community rules but that’s an interesting claim when like 1/3 of the posts are about men lol
Downvote me all you want but there’s there’s literally 4 posts about men on the frontpage. The community should be a safe space for women to talk about men but don’t misrepresent it as a place to forget about men
Downvote me all you want
Ok
That’s really ignoring a mountain of history. Up until a decade ago, “there are no girls on the internet” was a common saying.
I just see it as a way to foster and encourage an under represented segment of the community. It feels completely valid when that segment is still often met with hostility from weirdos.
the point of the saying was that your sex/gender shouldn’t matter for internet comments.
it wasn’t to exclude women.
self identifying yourself as a man or women will radically change how people interpret your comments. a lot of people assume i’m a woman from the way i comment. then they would find out i’m not a woman and harass the shit out of me for upsetting/subverting their gender expectations.
Was it a common saying or were you just on 4chan too much?
Extremely common. In gaming, twitch, YouTube comments, forums, 9gag comments, Reddit… The presence of women has been minuscule for a long while, and that’s translated as hostile to women.
9gag
Really? I don’t even remember the last time 9gag was known for anything other than being uncool and irrelevant.
Sounds like you’re in a bubble of a lot of sexist communities. That’s real unfortunate- you should maybe try to get out of that.
Why are you saying I am in those spaces now? You asked in past tense, I answered how it was 15 years ago.
I left most of those a long time ago and several have changed. It’s important to remember history, 15 years is pretty recent.
some people in certain communities get high on their own farts by thinking everything there is sexist, any anyone who participates must also be sexist. and then also participate.
you can’t fix stupid. i remember being part of dating communities in the past and everyone thought the community was sexist against their own sex, mostly when people challenged their sexist assumptions about the other gender being another but awful and horrible. like all the women who said men were shitty and awful sex fiends thought the community was pro-male. it was hilarious. and vice versa for all the women haters.
what it was was shitty people being shitty and engaging in self-fulling prophecies, for the most part. and it would be funny when they dated someone who didn’t fit the ‘x is awful’ trope… they would complain how ‘boring’ and ‘weird’ the person was. the funny thing about the people who weren’t sexist as hell… was they never really whined about things being sexist.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/there-are-no-girls-on-the-internet
It seems like it started before 4chan. 4chan probably amplified it and helped spread it though. All the bad things either start there, or it’s users violently clutch and hang on to it until it seems like it started there.
That is were I heard it first though so you are right in calling me out. It’s been a while, longer then just a decade ago thankfully, but I spent a bit of my teen years on there. It really feels shameful to admit. Overall, just a gross place.
I spent a couple of my teenaged years there too. I remember I printed out the “rules of the internet” post, which includes that “rule” and had it on my desk in high school. “For the lulz”. It’s important to grow and change, both as individuals and as a society. My friend group back then was a bunch of supposedly straight cis teens who threw around all kinds of slurs, and we thought it was okay as long as we weren’t actually being mean to other people and we kept it amongst ourselves. Largely, it was. But a lot of the same people who loved to throw the F slur around back then have boyfriends now. At least one person transitioned.
But my broader point is that it’s very easy to convince ourselves that something common in our own bubbles is ubiquitous across the internet and across time. Other people close to my age had very different experiences with the internet because they were in different communities. I’m sure that the youth today, with TikTok and Roblox and whatever else they are doing, have an entirely different culture. The older people on Facebook have a very different culture. I’m sure non-English speaking communities have different cultures.
And that’s also part of why I’m against segregated spaces. They create an echo chamber and reinforce societal divisions.
Any time some bigoted anti-trans law about bathrooms is proposed, progressive people advocating inclusivity point out that it’s impossible to define what a “woman” is in a manner that both excludes all trans-women and includes all cis-women. And I fully support that, which is why I have a hard time supporting exclusionary policies on the internet too.
things aren’t any different today dude. my teenager nephews do the same thing.
Your teenaged nephews may do the same thing, but my teenaged nieces do not. The internet is a gigantic place, and it’s dangerous to extrapolate our own limited perspective onto the whole.
It’s definitely common and it’s been around forever. We’ve always been here, but the vast majority of guys on the internet are so fucking toxic we just hide it. It’s true for me, at least. There are reasons I avoid PvP games like the plague, avoid toxic places like the Steam Forums, and refuse to use voice chat unless it’s a private game among friends. It gets hammered into you the first time you make the mistake of thinking you can participate with a group of boys, and that goes back before the internet. The internet creates an illusion of anonymity that makes those bad traits infinitely worse. So we mask and hide, but we’re here.
My experience has been the same and I’ve been on the internet since the mid-90s. I have always avoided voice chats unless with friends or trusted guildies and avoid things that will identify me as a woman because people can get so toxic. This happens in real life too, especially in gaming spaces. I’ve been laughed at when I said I taught my male partner how to play MTG until he confirmed it. I used to hear I’m “not a real woman” because I’ve been playing video games since I was a kid, it’s a lot better now, but it’s still there.
The womensstuff space is a huge breath of fresh air and I love having a space to speak about topics with fellow women. Quite a number of men have commented there and are very polite when they are corrected.
Also I wonder how it would look if we made a Men’s Club community where only men were allowed and women were openly mob-scolded for participating. Would probably be considered a pretty sexist environment.
Literally nothing is stopping you from creating a community for men with a rule that only men participate. The difference is that in the community you’re thinking about though, women wouldn’t be constantly trying to mess with it. There are hundreds of communities to choose from. We’re not entitled to participate in them all.
The major point isn’t whether or not it’s possible to create it. The major point was that it would be considered sexist, I imagine. Or at the very least a little cringe.
FWIW that community is just inspired by something that already exists outside of social media. The community owner kept !dull_mens_club@lemmy.world up since it’s pretty active, but the new official/recommended one for dull stuff is !Dullsters@dullsters.net . They explicitly wanted it to be more inclusive (not that DMC was only restricted to men posting).
The official Dull Men’s Club website encourages women to participate as well, so I don’t think it should be considered as a men-only community:
Though it started with men, women now belong too.
If 99.9999% of users are men, it’s effectively a place where men can express themselves without the fear that some women will flood the comments.
That’s what women want with their women only spaces. And while that man wasn’t being that rude, until women feel more comfortable let them have their bubbles.
If 99.9999% of users are men, it’s effectively a place where men can express themselves without the fear that some women will flood the comments.
The point of the community is to share the dull things you’ve accomplished, not to go there and talk about stuff with the expectation that only men will respond. I was trying to tell that commenter that, despite the name, it’s not trying to be a man-only space, and people hopefully should not react to or expect the community to be as such. I just wanted to clarify since I think the comm is cool.
There’s another similar community called !dullsters@dullsters.net if anyone objects to the name itself.That’s what women want with their women only spaces. And while that man wasn’t being that rude, until women feel more comfortable let them have their bubbles.
I agree with you.
That’s quite an “if” that you’re starting with.
The mens club you’re talking about DOES exist though. Since men are not a marginalized minority, that club is just called society.
Your logic mirrors asking, ‘Why not create a whites-only club?’ Technically, you could, but people would rightly view it negatively because white people, as a group, are not marginalized. Exclusive spaces for minorities exist to provide relief from the discrimination or bias they routinely encounter. For groups that do not face those barriers, everyday society already functions as their ‘exclusive space,’ which makes it difficult for non-minorities to understand why others might need a separate environment.
We’re talking about Lemmy communities here, having a men’s-only space to discuss men’s issues is totally fine. Also, demeaning men’s-only spaces and placing men in a uniform category as “the oppressor group” is awful for society
I didn’t place them in the oppressor group, I said they weren’t oppressed.
Ok, let’s walk through the implication.
-Women are oppressed.
-Men are not oppressed.
Who again are you saying is doing the oppressing? You’re blind to the fact that most men are also oppressed, and pretending that men can just go out in society and be safe being vulnerable is willfully ignorant
You’re putting words in my mouth and confusing the difference between a demographic and an individual. AS A DEMOGRAPHIC, women are oppressed. AS A DEMOGRAPHIC, men are not. We’re talking about statistics here, not individual experience.
The fact that some men are oppressed does not imply men are equally or more oppressed than women.
The fact that women AS A DEMOGRAPHIC are oppressed and men AS A DEMOGRAPHIC are not does not imply all men are oppressors. It DOES imply that men opress women, but like… fucking duh? If men aren’t pressing women, then who is? It doesn’t mean all men are oppressors, but are you seriously going to sit her and act like the majority of domestic abusers, sexual harassers, and discriminators AREN’T men???
You’re interpreting a defense of women exclusive spaces as an attack on individual men. You should unpack that.
Well then not all man are oppressed isn’t that okay to have a man-only communty?
Men are also being oppressed by the societal norms. Sure. Thing is, the severity of such oppression is not on the same level, and while real, is not a valid comparison to female oppression.
The oppressor is patriarchy, both men and women enforce it. Not everyone, but many. The way our societal norms, and other people in society peer pressure us into boxes is oppressive, and again, while men also are affected negatively by it, it’s just not comparable.
So yeah, you made up that implication due to, and this is me being benign here, your misinformed self. Given that the percentage of male/female users on Lemmy being so male skewed, its effectively a men only online space. Let women have their women only online spaces.
Society doesn’t allow women? And openly scolds them for participating? I dunno. It’s “similar”? I guess? Anyway, the other person makes a lot of the points I would make too so I’ll let y’all hash that out amongst yourselves.
It exists. Or did. Menslib over on that other platform.
Hey, go for it! If c/mensliberation became men-only, I’d support them! There are some communities where women wouldn’t have anything to contribute, and that’s okay and wouldn’t be sexist.
But just don’t go full kiwifarms with a men-only community and I’d say that’s fine.
I’m not interested in a men’s only club. How very boring. What would we talk about that women wouldn’t be able to join in on the conversation? I never understood that. Women’s perspectives are valuable, just as any person’s perspective. 👍
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I agree. I’m not making an argument that they shouldn’t exist. If someone wants a single-gender/-sex community, that’s fine by me. 👍
I know I’m sending mixed signals, but those things are not equivalent. All of modern society is patriarchal and women face exclusion from spaces their entire lives because of their sex or gender. Things have improved slightly over the decades but this kind of misogyny is still a global pandemic. When men are called privileged this is why. That ignorance is a privilege. Lucky you, that you haven’t experienced this constantly for your entire life. Want to create a “Men’s Club” community? We’ve all been living in it our entire lives. Nothing new to see there.
I still feel dirty thinking about the womensstuff community, though. The first time I stumbled in there I had no idea where I was and someone said “As a man…” and then asked a question, and they were told to be quiet. Women experience that constantly, and it’s worse for girls. So much worse. Especially if you are the chatty type of autistic that I am. Having experienced it, I would never subject others to that. I felt that interaction viscerally and immediately blocked the community. I understand wanting to have a safe space, and I do have those with certain private groups, but seeing that behavior was awful. Even queer spaces are welcoming to allies, and I feel inclusion of allies in all social matters is critical for progress to happen.
those things are not equivalent.
If by “those things” you mean a men’s club and a women’s club, that’s kind of my whole point. They should be considered the same but are not. Given men’s history of women’s oppression, there’s a lot we can’t do without the assumption of possibly being oppressive or sexist. Sometimes it’s hard being a man of one of the first generations in the starting centuries of women’s liberation (if it will even ever conclude).
Not as hard as women have had it of course, but if we want equality for all, that means we have to act the part, from both sides. 🙂
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Bingpot.
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It’s entirely about self identification. There’s no gender policing, they just kindly ask people who start their comments with phrases like “as a man…” or “not a woman, but…” to refrain from further commenting. They don’t even delete the comments unless the guy keeps going. Even still, inevitably if the post reaches the front page all the women in the comments will be drowned out by highly upvoted “as a man…” commenters. They just want to have a conversation without being shouted over.
exactly. this is the whole problem with trans stuff and gender essentailism.
who the fuck is to say what a woman is? a lot of people tie to totally arbitrary nonsense.
the concept of gender specific spaces is loaded with the notion that one sex/gender is worthy and the other in unworthy.
I blocked this community a while ago so I don’t accidentally view/comment on it
Same. I’m definitely guilty of glossing over community names, but fortunately saw that community the one time it took to block.
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Idk a men only community would probably be just trains, shoes, tanks, water heaters, and energy drinks, and I think I’d like it
I’ve seen dull men’s clubs on other platforms and was happy to see that female dull men were just as welcome to discuss garden tools and trains.
Dullness is gender neutral.
Is there a train community?
Some others too
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I saw that post too. I noticed it was a woman-only space and muted it. Godspeed to them, people deserve to have communities like that.
Same. I have a bad habit of shitposting into a comment section only to later see which community it was in. So I preemptively blocked them. The only community I did so, not to protect myself, but others.
I saw this play out and there were more than one of these users breaking the rules on that sub. I guess it’s tempting to want to comment on a first page thread, but boundaries exist for a reason. I don’t really see women going into incel spaces, making incels uncomfortable. Still, what it looked like was most of these men knew this wasn’t a community for them, but figured that their comments were so invaluable, how could it exist without their imput. It’s pathetic.
i usually browse by all and have sometimes accidentally have commented on the women’s stuff comm. The first time I did it they left my comment up (I didn’t know it was exclusively a women’s comm I thought it was a focus on women) but gave me a friendly reminder that it is womens stuff. Anyways I’ve also almsot commented in that comm a few times and only noticed it after reading comments
ANYWAYS that was longer than I anticipated but all I can excuse is accidentally commenting, the actual behavior is not especially since they said it they knew it was a women only community. IMO that’s not ok since I’m sure of what OOP was doing was allowed or “as a man…” was allowed, 90% of the comm would be men effectively destroying the women only space
I can understand a mistake, and like I read on the original thread and on here; the mods are really nice. It just really shouldn’t happen more than once imo. I also feel bad for the mods literally trying to keep a space designated for woman safe. When I first saw the group, and the rules- It was confusing but I think it’s understandable. There’s not 100 of these spaces, and the rules should be understandable for anyone who thought of participating.
I agree the mods are lovely. IDR who the mod that replied to me was or even if they were a mod but they essentially said it’s ok mistakes happen just don’t let it happen again
I think they’re really good at differentiating people who accidentally step into the space like me, VS people invading like the person in the screenshot
But yeah if any women’s stuff mods are reading this, yall are great
Exactly, dude is just proving them right that all men are self-important assholes. It’s like a woman going on /r/redpill and telling them they’re just angry, ugly geeks. Not helping. That being said I can’t help but think trying to create a safe space on a public space is never going to really work. I’d see more something like a private matrix space, or even properly authenticated IRC (that’s where I have my safe space about my addiction).
I can agree with that, but I think for privacy you lose some inclusivity. I understand you want to feel comfortable when talking about sensitive topics. On the other hand, is being a woman really such a sensitive topic that we shouldn’t be able to have a space that’s respected? It’s depressing that it’s not just intrinsically understood that these spaces are important, deserve to be public and proud, and really should be more prolific- but here we are.
That’s true. For privacy, you need anonymity, and that safe space I use is truly anonymous but as such it as its downsides. As much as we’d love to meet, or organize ourselves into a job seeking network because boy do many of us need it, or simply game online together… we can’t do any of that.
That’s rough.
I do think that’s the rule of life though, to get something you have to part with something. I bet it would be really nice to be friends in real life with the people on that matrix, but right now at least that group needs anonymity more. It doesn’t always have to be that way, life is odd and there are no concrete outcomes. Though for now, I’m sure you appreciate having somewhere to go to be able to talk about things that maybe most people wouldn’t understand or lay judgement upon. I genuinely wish you and everyone on that matrix the absolute best.
As a man… just stating that it has nothing to do with the rest of my comment, but when I see those communities I just filter and move on. I do the same for all the gross *Moe communities with cartoon children dressed inappropriately.
Just FYI, those are almost all on the same instance, and you can block that instance as a whole. It’s dedicated to anime, so there’s not a ton of collateral damage.
If you block the instance then you block legit communities too though
Yes, but that’s only an issue if you are interested in those other communities. In this case, the instance is dedicated to anime, so it’s only an issue if you want to browse those other anime communities.
Reading this as a self hoster: god damn it, is there ANOTHER fucking instance I need to defederate?
I feel like accidentally commenting there is a Lemmy right of passage. It got me, and continues to almost get me. They generally have good discussion.
It managed to elude me, because the 1st post from this community I read had mod comment pinned. I was like “huh”, checked, thought “neat” and moved on.
What’s QST?
1st
Probably a typo for 1st
yes
Yeah I messed up with that a couple times. I do read their comments though, it’s nice to get the female perspective on things.
suggestion: make a separate community that is “replies to womens stuff”.
actually don’t, sounds like a cesspool.
Much like the original.
Show us one of these “cesspool” threads, I’ve seen nothing but kindness there.
90% of it is a wholesome support group. 10% of it is “all men are rapists and anyone who disagrees is defending rapists.”
That 10% is probably what they’re talking about. I hide those threads every time they pop up in the everything feed, so I don’t have one to link.
Also I pulled those numbers out of my ass, it’s based on my own observations and I haven’t really been looking that hard.
I honestly don’t know what you’re offended by. Maybe I wasn’t reading closely enough, but could you spell it out for me?
He read the rules of the community and decided to break them anyway.
Right, the infuriating part is the man ignoring the rules despite clearly being aware of them
Why is bringing a comment from a woman in his life so bad? It might be a gray area but it’s still from a woman which is what the point was.
I’m not arguing against the rule since I just blocked the community if I can’t interact with it anyway, but it feels like that should be an interesting gray area discussion thing, though that’s also just ignoring the femcels responding to him calling him a liar lol
Because he is not following the rules.
it’s hearsay; if you can’t cross examine the testimony, it can’t be presented as evidence.
Maybe I believe in community rules too strictly.
If the rules say women only, it means women only.
How does an anonymous person on Lemmy prove they are a woman?
Ah, I was thinking it might just be that, but didn’t want to assume. Yeah, I don’t think it’s that big a deal. If the commenter came in and said some misogynistic shit, definitely, but just for commenting? Eh. Yeah, he shouldn’t have, but how much harm was actually done?
What he said is not bad, it’s not about that, it’s the fact that he read the rules and still thought that he had every right to participate. He’s the reason the community was set up, to have a space where men don’t interrupt and insert themselves into every conversation no matter what.
Women enters men only space = stunning and brave
Man enters women only space = sexist and misogynistic and low key sexual assault…
Also, online, womens only spaces are usually just as toxic as fuck as any incel space. We just dont call them what they are. So, IMO, some rules need to take a big long hard suck of societies asshole.
True let’s look at some of those super toxic posts that are very man hating, all taken from the front page
Do you want to have kids?
I hate being pregnant
essay on menopause
tweet about is a woman being rude, or are people conditioned to think a woman being assertive is rude
I actually did not find a single post about a man in about 30 posts. Curious.
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Got and good examples for that statement? I can’t really think of any situations where it is seen as stunning and brave for a woman to enter a men only space. There is a big difference with mostly male and only male.
Like every STEM field ever?
Even if it is just mostly male, it is still seen as stunning and brave. When it should just be the norm.
Like every STEM field ever?
Not male only, I think you may have misunderstood my point.
I suppose the most obvious example is men in sheds. It somethings that was created especially to deal with the issue of male loneliness, especially amongst the older community. Basis for being single gender, was to address those older gents who feel pressures to act a certain way around women. This was that one place they could go and just hang out doing wood working and what not. It was for men to make connections with other men, because men, seemingly, struggle with making or even keeping connections.
Enter the women, who think its sexist. Who think that men dont need just time to themselves. Theres mixed sex and single sex(female) things all over the place. But some women see men only spaces, and think “Not on my fucking watch!!!”.
Every day we talk about mens mental health, then some gaggle of cave brained cunts turns up to tell men how they have to sort their own shit out. Men in sheds did just that. Then it got popular, and then that same gaggle of cave brained cunts turns up talking about how male only spaces are toxic… Rinse, repeat, ad Infinium
https://www.4bc.com.au/women-are-demanding-entry-into-mens-sheds https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg5qd9l3094o
Why cant men have male on spaces? Why can we have our man caves? And if we do, why is it a a bad thing?
Theres a guardian hit piece on the “disappointing” vote to have one of the last remaining gentlemans clubs remain male only. They also have a little go at “mostly white” like thats a fucking crime as well.
Same thing happened at the Flyers club. Men only for 141 years, then all of a sudden women want in and its sexist not to let them.
We cant even just play fucking video games, without getting hammered over the head about how its childish and that we need to grow up. God fucking forbid, we have a fucking hobby and some fun together.
https://time.com/archive/6709832/organizations-not-for-men-only/
There’s also the Scouts formerly known as Boy (“Boy Scouts” no longer exists, it’s now “Girl Scouts” and “Scouting America” now.)
Male only spaces are often sued out of existence.
So I recently looked at both Girlscouts and Scouts of America for my daughter. Honestly when I tried to compare with Scouts of America the folks from Girlscouts were very sexist and very quick to bash on their competition while Scouts of America was just like “yeah were gonna go hiking and make pinewood derby cars and have a good time” both organizations have their problems but Scouts of America was noticably the less toxic of the two at this point
Tbh I’m not surprised, I do think that SOA was forced to be inclusive, but they have been for years now and so they’re probably used to it.
Conversely Girl Scouts not only were never pressured to be inclusive, they’re actively shielded from having to be inclusive. You think they’re sexist when a girl wants to join you should see how they treat boys who want to join!
Also worth noting, the whole reasoning behind forcing the Boy Scouts to allow girls was “because the girl scouts sucks.”
Personally I think the correct answer was either:
A) Boy/Girl scouts merge, they’re both now Scouting America and everyone can join. Could even expand it to adults that missed out as kids and want to learn survival skills or want to hike and camp with other adults (separate units of course from the kids lmao, but I’ll shoehorn in a healthy “third place” for adults any chance I get). And keep selling the Girl Scout cookies but call them Scouting America cookies now.
B) Nothing. Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts remain limited to their respective genders, and if “girl scouts sucks” then it is their responsibility to improve and make it not suck instead of forcing their way into the Boy Scouts. Leaves NB out to dry though, and could get weird if someone wants to transition but their Scout Credits don’t transfer with them.
But we got neither, instead we got “the boys do not deserve their own space but the girls do” which is a little weird to me (though entirely too common.)
I am glad however that you were able to go with the less toxic option, and I do still love Thin Mints, I just wish they’d have taken option (A) instead of option (D)ouble Standard.
This is not an instance for incels, please leave, and take your mother issues elsewhere.
Username checks out…
Yeah, men should go to the back of that bus right?
Oh, poor poor oppressed men that aren’t allowed anywhere on the internet!
The problem is not being allowed somewhere. Women are allowed pretty much everywhere, too.
What is inadequate is building what are essentially hate groups and not letting the opposite side defend themselves.
This turns to unnecessary and brutal radicalization that is antithetic to a productive change.
Sure, women are allowed pretty much everywhere, but it still doesn’t mean that we are safe from harassment or that the spaces aren’t extremely male-dominated. And if an oppressed group wanting their own space and complaining about their oppression is a hate group to you, look inwards.
I see where this is coming from, and from that angle, it might seem (and sometimes be) noble.
The problem arises when the oppressed group starts falsely lumping everyone outside the group into oppressors, which so often happens around gendered issues, among others. So many times I’ve seen women in such spaces lashing out at men at large and then bringing this mentality to the world outside the group.
“Men can’t be discriminated against - they are oppressors” “Men are abusive by nature” “Men are unsafe to be around” “Men are the problem” “It is always men” “Sure, a man might just be a chill person, but he always carries privilege and is thereby part of the problem” “Men go through different socialization that breaks them and makes them abusive”
These are just few of the arguments I’ve seen in the wild, on several occasions.
To be clear: it’s not by any means exclusive to women. There are plenty of examples of men grouping together on much the same grounds, spreading similar false narratives about women. And this is something that shouldn’t happen, ever, under any premise. It erodes our ability to build bridges, to communicate, to find actual solutions - and to support each other, whatever the gender distribution of any given place is. And currently, Lemmy is certainly not the worst on the scale, even though it could fare better.
I personally do not care, I usually do not want to go into communities/places where I’m not welcome. But disceiminating basing on gender, sex, sexuality, race, ideology, etc… usually frowned upon.
I just find that double standard quite pronounced.
I would agree with you but this is like being surrounded by men for 99% of the time all the time forever and then having a community that is not 99% men.
That said I don’t fully agree with them, half the time it really is weirdos downplaying women’s experiences, but the other half is a woman giving a story and ending it with something like “men are disgusting,” and someone (not very nicely) replying “what do you mean men are disgusting??”
I wouldn’t say that’s a reasonable response, but definitely understandable, and I’ve seen it downplayed as an incel response pretty often
I think your stats are a bit skewed, it’s likely more than 1% of the entire population (internet or otherwise) that are women, trans women, or NB. (I know you’re speaking entirely too hyperbolically rather than literally, but)
I mean, just in the US alone:
The total population of United States is estimated to be 332.39 million with 164.55 million males (49.50%) and 167.84 million females (50.50%). There are 3.3 million more females than males in United States.
I find it hard to say that 3.3mil more women than men is “99% men all the time,” sounds like it’s closer to 50.5%.
As for them having their own community, idgaf really, have fun, but also:
It’s definitely a double standard, and fraternal organizations are often met with just as much hostility and discrimination suits (ex: Boy Scouts were pressured to allow girls, while Girl Scouts not only never faced the same pressure, those leaning on Boy Scouts to br inclusive actively defend Girl Scouts as a male exclusionary space, and I cannot grasp the cognitive dissonance that takes). Personally I think we need to pick a lane as a whole either direction, it’s either fine or not to have exclusionary orgs and comms like that, no double standard, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Also I think it’s somewhat of an invitation for problems to have your exclusionary non-public community in public. Should prrooooobably just have something more secure that people won’t constantly stumble into, but if one has fun with constant moderation I suppose it’s a good way to feed one’s addiction. Seems like it’d get old, personally.
It’s especially ridiculous to me to make someone’s demographic the subject of a post, while barring that demographic from participation (at least on that post.) I guess I get it, it’s like talking shit behind someone’s back instead of to their face, which is a lot easier, but it is telling that if you replace the demographic in question with any other of your choosing, the problems with the practice would become glaringly obvious.
That said if they want to be exclusionary, reactionary, and complain about an entire demographic without them there to speak their side? Well I’m used to it, you should hear the shit my uncle says, so I say have fun, fuck it.
Online communities don’t have to have the same demographics as physical locations. Why does it seem weird to you that either gender would want to vent about the opposite one without reading 100 replies by the group being vented about.
On lemmy as well as reddit it is by far majority men, idk why you’d think I was talking about irl. A lot of people talk way more online than irl.
I do agree having just a men’s space is important, I think the reason for things like boy scouts being mixed is so you can have people of both genders interacting while building and doing things together, which is really important learning and doesn’t happen much in schools. Is this more or less important than having a purely boys space, i really don’t know. That said I’m not opposed to pure male spaces once people aren’t in school anymore, and it likely is important, but I can maybe try to explain the double standard.
I think we would both agree men are generally more aggressive and competitive, due to higher testosterone. That means they will generally take up more of the space and conversation, and be more boisterous. This means a few men in a woman’s space will impact it much more than a few women in a men’s space. Women being generally less aggressive stern competitive etc their voices are often just lost or very quiet in normal life. People want to talk to others with similar experiences and commiserate, and that’s hard to do for women if they’re not hearing other women. I think irl even if you didn’t identify as a woman but had very similar experiences to women, most good groups would say ya you’re also welcome. It’s sort of just a bad categorization for shared experiences, but the best one we have for now.
Idk I don’t look at people venting against any demographic and think I need to speak up (as long as it’s not just hateful or wrong). It’s like if I said “I have to lock my car in majority black neighborhoods,” most non radical leftists would say “ya true but they’re not more dangerous because they’re black its because they’re poor” to which I would say “ya. I still have to lock my car here though.” Same thing in that thread, men wouldn’t do that if they had more support from men AND women, but the statement was totally fair and not really that negative, it felt more like “it’s sad this is the way things are right now.” Though, testosterone DOES sorta push men to think being nice = in love, so it’s not a totally fair comparison.
The reason it’s public is to make it as easy as possible for women to stumble into it and post and comment, and hoping everyone else will be understanding. Making it private or sign-up only or whatever basically loses the whole point of being able to hear other women.
He said female. That’s apparently the new n word
