• Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    You know what? I never thought I’d say this but I’m with Ukraine on this one.

    This whole counter offensive insanity is so militarily nonsensical that it had to have been mounted to please the West with a “win” so that they’d stay in the war. Real Chiang Kai Shek committing the best of the KMT army to Shanghai to impress the Westerners energy.

    The West is standing on the sidelines, supplying just enough equipment to keep the embers going and judging the ordinary Ukrainians going to their deaths by their hundreds.

    Fuck the clowns in charge in Kiev and fuck the Nazi militias obviously. But at this point the men being sent to the front are old men and boys dragged off the street against their will. Sending them to die to appease the West is fucking sick.

    • LeFantome@programming.dev
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      10 months ago

      This got an upvote?

      Are you open to proposing your master plan?

      Ukraine has been invaded. Are you suggesting they do not fight back?

      NATO is not war. No NATO country has been attacked. Engaging against Russia directly would put NATO at war with a nuclear power. I cannot imagine that this is your plan.

      Not just “the West”, but everybody is on the sidelines as far as direct engagement goes. Most countries are assisting Ukraine where they can. Some to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. Most have imposed crippling sanctions. So. “sidelines” is a bit misleading from that perspective.

      Even Russia’s allies are “on the sidelines”. You certainly do not see much overt support from China. They have even maintained ( in fact stepped-up ) diplomatic relation with Ukraine.

      Or are you trying to imply that the underlying cause of everything here is something other than Russia’s continued invasion? Everybody could truly go back to the sidelines if Russia just left.

      The only other path is for Ukraine to win. Are you supporting that or not?

      • rubpoll [she/her]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        If your goal is to prevent deaths, surrendering would have been the ideal yeah.

        Zelenksy tried to surrender to prevent further deaths, and Boris Johnson refused to let that meeting happen because NATO isn’t finished using Ukranians as crash test dummies.

        • GivingEuropeASpook [they/them, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          10 months ago

          If your goal is to prevent deaths, surrendering would have been the ideal yeah.

          This has literally never been true in any war ever. Foreign occupations rarely tend to be bloodless and I doubt a Russian one would have been an exception. At no point were any of the peace talks about Ukraine’s surrender – only renouncing it’s NATO ambitions in exchange for the withdrawal of Russian troops, as per:

          https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper

          “In the weeks ahead of Johnson’s April 9 visit, high-level diplomatic talks held in Belarus and Turkey had failed to yield a diplomatic breakthrough, though reports in mid-March indicated that Russian and Ukrainian delegations “made significant progress” toward a 15-point peace deal that would involve Ukraine renouncing its NATO ambitions in exchange for the withdrawal of Moscow’s troops.”

          At no point was surrender on the table - that would have likely lead to Zelenksy’s detention and execution in the early days of the invasion.

        • sunbeam60@lemmy.one
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          10 months ago

          Zelenskyy tried to surrender and Boris Johnson stopped him?! Ooooookay… He maaaybe (all “unnamed” sources) expressed an opinion, which the U.K. learnt the hard way, that you cannot negotiate with dictators. There can be no “peace in our time” with dictators hellbent on destruction.

          To cast that as “Ukraine was stopped from surrendering” is just obscene … and yet another Kremlin talking point.

          • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            which the U.K. learnt the hard way, that you cannot negotiate with dictators. There can be no “peace in our time” with dictators hellbent on destruction.

            If the UK is convinced that you can’t negotiate with dictators, how does the UK keep entering into arms sales agreements with Saudi Arabia? Do the contracts just appear out of thin air at BAE?

            • sunbeam60@lemmy.one
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              10 months ago

              Sigh.

              I am referencing to a dictator that is hellbent on invasion of other countries. We had plenty of relations with Russia before they decided to invade Ukraine and they were a dictatorship before. We have plenty of relationships with China now and they are a de facto dictatorship.

          • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            Russia and Ukraine may have agreed on a tentative deal to end the war in April, according to a recent piece in Foreign Affairs.

            “Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement,” wrote Fiona Hill and Angela Stent. “Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.”

            The news highlights the impact of former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s efforts to stop negotiations, as journalist Branko Marcetic noted on Twitter. The decision to scuttle the deal coincided with Johnson’s April visit to Kyiv, during which he reportedly urged Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to break off talks with Russia for two key reasons: Putin cannot be negotiated with, and the West isn’t ready for the war to end.

            Foreign Affairs is a Kremlin propaganda outlet now?

      • Calavera@lemm.ee
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        10 months ago

        What do you mean by not just the west?

        We have almost zero countries on Asia, Africa and Latin America which have sanctioned Russia or sent military aid to Ukraine

        This is just related to nato/Europe/global north countries.

        Europe is not the whole world

      • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        Ukraine has plenty of opportunities to win. It could have chosen to chart a more balanced position between the EU and Russia. It could have given the Donbass some independence referenda and just let them go. It could have actually tried to adhere to the numerous Minsk Agreements to deescalate and prevent war. It could have negotiated for peace while the Russians were pulling back after its previously more successful counter offensives.

        But each time its leaders ignored the off ramp to peace and pursued delusional maximalist goals, egged on by promises of EU and NATO membership which even Zelensky acknowledged publically were just carrots dangled in front of Ukraine.

        Now there’s no pathway to any sort of Ukrainian victory and the most realistic scenarios all involve Ukraine permanently giving up Donbas and Crimea. The only difference between the likely outcome now and just giving them a referendum in 2014 is a couple hundred thousand Ukrainian graves.

        I’d respect the EU and NATO more if they had actually followed through with their promises to Ukraine instead of this Charlie Brown football bullshit.

        • ThereRisesARedStar [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.net
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          10 months ago

          Ukraine has plenty of opportunities to win. It could have chosen to chart a more balanced position between the EU and Russia.

          I mean they tried to but they got couped by the US for their troubles.

          • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            It rules that libs constantly appeal to public opinion of people in Taiwan as an argument for why China should let it be independent but as soon as people from a Western aligned country want to exercise that same self-determination its “surrendering” to let them have a referendum.

            Totally an intellectually coherent ideology and not just “our team (good), your team (bad)”.

          • Łumało [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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            10 months ago

            Your comment makes me want to see a fan cut of Captain America where he just gets the shit beaten out of him and his limbs ripped off and he dies and every five minutes “I can do this all day” but it never turns around and he fucking dies. He never appears to make a come back. He just keeps getting his ass kicked and never stops saying the line. Except it’s not his ass getting kicked, it’s some random children he took off the street and forced to be child soldiers or he’d kill them. And he just keeps saying “I can do this all day” while tens of thousands of people keep getting killed and not once for any reason or goal that progress is made towards. Just tens of thousands of dead bodies every month. “I can do this all day” except he’s not even there he’s on an internet forum. It’s still tens of thousand of dead bodies but not his. And he’ll never give up. But he’ll never get any closer to winning. Just death to countless people who aren’t him. He can do it all day. And every time he says it you can tell he feels really cool and badass. He’s Captain America. He doesn’t quit just because it looks bad.

          • ThereRisesARedStar [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            Neither of these things he describes are surrendering:

            It could have given the Donbass some independence referenda and just let them go. It could have actually tried to adhere to the numerous Minsk Agreements to deescalate and prevent war.

            In fact both of them would have prevented Russia from annexing donbass. They would be independent territories that would act as a buffer state between the two countries.

            • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              I was coming at it from the sense of both outcomes being the same (Ukraine losing Donbas) but in one scenario Ukraine “wins” because it doesn’t get bombed and lose hundreds of thousands of people, but you raise a great point. There was a chance that letting Donbas go in 2014 would have resulted in a fairly neutral buffer with Russia.

              There was a point where the DPR and LPR were just seeking autonomy within Ukraine to speak Russian and decide local issues but the hardliners in Kiev decided to sic Nazis on them instead.

      • s0ykaf [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        Most countries are assisting Ukraine where they can.

        lmao here i am living in a 200 million people country where nobody gives a single fuck about ukraine

        even more political groups and discussions rarely involve ukraine except when lula decides to own zelensky in some way, no one here cares about nato’s proxy war

  • thecodemonk@programming.dev
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    10 months ago

    The comment threads here are weird. Who, in their right mind, would ever support a country like Russia? It’s mind blowing.

  • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    There sure are a lot of Lemmy bro-gaders and NATO shillbots in this thread. That’s the only explanation for people disagreeing with me.
    smuglord

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    10 months ago

    No shit. Western training and equipment is not fit for purpose. Acting as a colonial cop by bombing with impunity ≠ attacking the strongest defensive lines of the 21st century. All their wunderwaffe just gets blown up by mines or drones.

    • ATiredPhilosopher@lemmygrad.ml
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      10 months ago

      Any actual rebuttal or just gonna roll out the usual libshit jab and run along? America has blood on its hands for a lot of things, it found out once and might find out again if it isn’t careful.

        • ATiredPhilosopher@lemmygrad.ml
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          10 months ago

          That if you spend decades destabilising a region in the name of oil, occasionally the people that are getting shit on will do something about it.

              • vokkez@lemmy.world
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                10 months ago

                I think 9/11 was a terrorist attack by a fundamentalist Islamic terrorist organization motivated by Bin Laden issuing fatāwā against America for stationing troops in Saudi Arabia and for supporting Israel. I think Bin Laden stating that he believed that it was a justified attack because of America’s support for Israel points pretty solidly at the motivation behind the attacks:

                “…it was a response to injustice, aimed at forcing America to stop its support for Israel…”

                Also this from his video where he admits that he was behind the attacks and says that he was motivated by Israel bombing Lebanon

                “…it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted…”

                Interested in why you think oil had anything to do with 9/11. The destabilizing countries for oil stuff mostly came after 9/11. Middle Eastern hatred for America was mainly fueled by our support for Israel, and partially because Saudi Arabia had American military bases. Oil was not an interest to these terrorist groups until after Iraq.

                Sources for those quotes:

                http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1729882.stm

                https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2004/11/1/full-transcript-of-bin-ladins-speech

                • ATiredPhilosopher@lemmygrad.ml
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                  10 months ago

                  America was there for the oil, the destability came as a result and that came well before 9/11. Anyway, it’d be great if they’d stop meddling in everyone’s business for their own selfish reasons and that includes the endless NATO sabre rattling under the guise of fReEdOm.

  • puff [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    Pretty telling that the new line being fed to NATO worshippers is ‘don’t say anything critical about our objective failures’. This is, ironically, the same message Goebbels pushed when failures began to mount on the eastern front after Stalingrad and then Kursk. As the Soviet steamroller continued to Berlin, the line in the media was ‘it is unpatriotic to say we are losing’. And then they lost.

  • Rapidcreek@reddthat.com
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    10 months ago

    Somewhere in the Pentagon there surely must be a series of rooms isolated for this war. In them intelligence is gathered, counterparts in Ukraine can be in instant contact, resources from both armies are tracked, tactics are formulated, simulations are run. How do I know this? Because this would be too good of a learning opportunity to pass up.

    And those folks ain’t talking.

        • robot_dog_with_gun [they/them]@hexbear.net
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          10 months ago

          two sentences is hardly a rant and there are plenty of quotes from american officials and armchair generals about how this war is great because it’s degrading “our enemy” without costing american lives.

          • Rapidcreek@reddthat.com
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            10 months ago

            I believe that degrading the army of one of the US greatest geopolitical world rivals at the cost of roughly 3% of the DoD budget is money well spent. In that there is no US blood is an added advantage. The Ukrainians are fighting this war for their own purpose, to reject tyrannical rule. That’s something that’s happened for a millennium, including the American revolution.

            The US didn’t impose this war, 100,000 Russians invading did. As France helped the US during the revolution, the US helps Ukraine.

            • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              I believe that degrading the army of one of the US greatest geopolitical world rivals at the cost of roughly 3% of the DoD budget is money well spent.

              They’re not gonna let you into the club just because you lick the boot leather. I believe the 100.000s of dead ukrainians are more important than some vague US geopolitical goal.

              The Ukrainians are fighting this war for their own purpose, to reject tyrannical rule.

              The ukrainians are forcibly conscripted and banned from leaving their country. They do not want to fight.

              The US didn’t impose this war, 100,000 Russians invading did

              Yeah one day putler just woke up and felt like invading, that’s what happened.

              If you think this is such a good war, go volunteer.

              • Rapidcreek@reddthat.com
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                10 months ago

                The Ukrainians could stop this war anytime they want, as could Putin.

                Reality is the Russians invaded. They rejected world order.

                • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  The Ukrainians could stop this war anytime they want

                  The Ukrainian government could, the same government that banned every political party that wasn’t sufficiently anti-Russia. And the last time the people got to vote, they elected Zelensky who ran as a peace candidate. So no, the people of Ukraine, the ones being drafted and sent to the front lines, have very little say over whether Ukraine negotiates for peace.

                • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  The Ukrainians could stop this war anytime they want, as could Putin.

                  The ukrainians are being forcibly conscripted and banned from leaving the country. They do not want to fight. The russians have sought peace negotiations several times, NATO-members like the United Kingdom, have come and stopped these negotiations.

                  Reality is the Russians invaded. They rejected world order.

                  Ah yes, one day evil putler woke up and decided to invade, that’s what happened. He rejected our Good Guys Rules Based Order because he’s just such an evil dude.

            • BelieveRevolt [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              ”This is a US proxy war.”

              ”That’s an uninformed rant!”

              ”This is a US proxy war, and that’s a good thing.”

            • TomBombadil [he/him, she/her]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              The Ukrainians are fighting this war for their own purpose, to reject tyrannical rule.

              Yes good thing their escaping tyrannical rule for totally wholesome democratic rule… That bans all opposition parties and bombs their own country for nearly a decade

            • ThereRisesARedStar [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              I believe that degrading the army of one of the US greatest geopolitical world rivals at the cost of roughly 3% of the DoD budget is money well spent.

              Which is why so many nations are smelling the blood in the water and casting off their western neocolonial overlords in Africa right now.

              Lmao.

              In that there is no US blood is an added advantage.

              hitler-detector

            • Grimble [he/him,they/them]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              farquaad-point Department of Naval Intelligence

              American revolution was a counterrevolution you dolt. Now go ahead, tell me I “support the British empire” bc you can only think exactly one step ahead.

            • Annakah69 [she/her]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              Who gives a fuck about the money? Hundreds of thousands are dead, and we are close to nuclear annihilation.

              You are enthralled to a demon. Wake up and imagine you were marched to the frontlines.

            • HornyOnMain@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              to reject tyrannical rule. That’s something that’s happened for a millennium, including the American revolution.

              https://readsettlers.org/ch2.html

              long extract from Settlers about the nature of the 1776 revolution

              We need to see the dialectical unity of democracy and oppression in developing settler Amerika. The winning of citizenship rights by poorer settlers or non-Anglo-Saxon Europeans is democratic in form. The enrollment of the white masses into new, mass instruments of repression-such as the formation of the infamous Slave Patrols in Virginia in 1727 — is obviously anti-democratic and reactionary. Yet these opposites in form are, in their essence, united as aspects of creating the new citizenry of Babylon. This is why our relationship to “democratic” struggles among the settlers has not been one of simple unity.

              This was fully proven in practice once again by the 1776 War of Independence, a war in which most of the Indian and Afrikan peoples opposed settler nationhood and the consolidation of Amerika. In fact, the majority of oppressed people gladly allied themselves to the British forces in hopes of crushing the settlers.

              This clash, between an Old European empire and the emerging Euro-Amerikan empire, was inevitable decades before actual fighting came. The decisive point came when British capitalism decided to clip the wings of the new Euro-Amerikan bourgeoisie — they restricted emigration, hampered industry and trade, and pursued a long-range plan to confine the settler population to a controllable strip of territory along the Atlantic seacoast. They proposed, for their own imperial needs, that the infant Amerika be permanently stunted. After all, the European conquest of just the Eastern shores of North America had already produced, by the time of Independence, a population almost one-third as large as that of England and Ireland. They feared that unchecked, the Colonial tail might someday wag the imperial dog (as indeed it has).

              Like Bacon’s Rebellion, the “liberty” that the Amerikan Revolutionists of the 1770’s fought for was in large part the freedom to conquer new Indian lands and profit from the commerce of the slave trade, without any restrictions or limitations. In other words, the bourgeois “freedom” to oppress and exploit others. The successful future of the settler capitalists demanded the scope of independent nationhood.

              But as the first flush of settler enthusiasm faded into the unhappy realization of how grim and bloody this war would be, the settler “sunshine soldiers” faded from the ranks to go home and stay home. Almost one-third of the Continental Army deserted at Valley Forge. So enlistment bribes were widely offered to get recruits. New York State offered new enlistments 400 acres each of Indian land. Virginia offered an enlistment bonus of an Afrikan slave (guaranteed to be not younger than age ten) and 100 acres of Indian land. In South Carolina, Gen. Sumter used a share-the-loot scheme, whereby each settler volunteer would get an Afrikan captured from Tory estates. Even these extraordinarily generous offers failed to spark any sacrificial enthusiasm among the settler masses. (14)

              It was Afrikans who greeted the war with great enthusiasm. But while the settler slavemasters sought “democracy” through wresting their nationhood away from England, their slaves sought liberation by overthrowing Amerika or escaping from it. Far from being either patriotic Amerikan subjects or passively enslaved neutrals, the Afrikan masses threw themselves daringly and passionately into the jaws of war on an unprecedented scale — that is, into their own war, against slave Amerika and for freedom.

              The British, short of troops and laborers, decided to use both the Indian nations and the Afrikan slaves to help bring down the settler rebels. This was nothing unique; the French had extensively used Indian military alliances and the British extensively used Afrikan slave recruits in their 1756-63 war over North America (called “The French & Indian War” in settler history books). But the Euro-Amerikan settlers, sitting on the dynamite of a restive, nationally oppressed Afrikan population, were terrified — and outraged.

              This was the final proof to many settlers of King George III’s evil tyranny. An English gentlewoman traveling in the Colonies wrote that popular settler indignation was so great that it stood to unite rebels and Tories again. (15) Tom Paine, in his revolutionary pamphlet Common Sense, raged against “…that barbarous and hellish power which hath stirred up Indians and Negroes to destroy us.” (16) But oppressed peoples saw this war as a wonderful contradiction to be exploited in the ranks of the European capitalists.

              Lord Dunmore was Royal Governor of Virginia in name, but ruler over so little that he had to reside aboard a British warship anchored offshore. Urgently needing reinforcements for his outnumbered command, on Nov. 5, 1775 he issued a proclamation that any slaves enlisting in his forces would be freed. Sir Henry Clinton, commander of British forces in North America, later issued an even broader offer:

              I do most strictly forbid any Person to sell or claim Right over any Negroe, the property of a Rebel, who may claim refuge in any part of this Army; And I do promise to every Negroe who shall desert the Rebel Standard, full security to follow within these Lines, any Occupation which he shall think proper. (17)

              Could any horn have called more clearly? By the thousands upon thousands, Afrikans struggled to reach British lines. One historian of the Exodus has said: “The British move was countered by the Americans, who exercised closer vigilance over their slaves, removed the able-bodied to interior places far from the scene of the war, and threatened with dire punishment all who sought to join the enemy. To Negroes attempting to flee to the British the alternatives ‘Liberty or Death’ took on an almost literal meaning. Nevertheless, by land and sea they made their way to the British forces.” (18)

              The war was a disruption to Slave Amerika, a chaotic gap in the European capitalist ranks to be hit hard. Afrikans seized the time — not by the tens or hundreds, but by the many thousands. Amerika shook with the tremors of their movement. The signers of the Declaration of Independence were bitter about their personal losses: Thomas Jefferson lost many of his slaves; Virginia’s Governor Benjamin Harrison lost thirty of “my finest slaves”; William Lee lost sixty-five slaves, and said two of his neighbors “lost every slave they had in the world”; South Carolina’s Arthur Middleton lost fifty slaves. (19)

              Afrikans were writing their own “Declaration of Independence” by escaping. Many settler patriots tried to appeal to the British forces to exercise European solidarity and expel the Rebel slaves. George Washington had to denounce his own brother for bringing food to the British troops, in a vain effort to coax them into returning the Washington family slaves. (20) Yes, the settler patriots were definitely upset to see some real freedom get loosed upon the land.

              To this day no one really knows how many slaves freed themselves during the war. Georgia settlers were said to have lost over 10,000 slaves, while the number of Afrikan escaped prisoners in South Carolina and Virginia was thought to total well over 50,000. Many, in the disruption of war, passed themselves off as freemen and relocated in other territories, fled to British Florida and Canada, or took refuge in Maroon communities or with the Indian nations. It has been estimated that 100,000 Afrikan prisoners — some 20% of the slave population — freed themselves during the war.

                • HornyOnMain@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  “here is a book that lays out why what you are saying is colonial apologia, with a link to read more if you want to, and the important bits directly quoted for you for your convenience”

                  smuglord “have you considered that somebody who wouldn’t be born for over a hundred years after this is bad?”

      • Rapidcreek@reddthat.com
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        10 months ago

        The US has had its weapons used in conflicts for years. Yes, they do what they’re supposed to do. Not much to learn, really.

        • Chapo_is_Red [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          10 months ago

          Then why do you think they’re gathering intel? Surely the situation is very different in Ukraine. A weapon system is context dependent, it doesn’t exist in a vacuum.

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            10 months ago

            Intel is a tool which the US has high capability and it takes many forms. I am sure we share this intel with the Ukrainians

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              10 months ago

              Who is this we? And why are you so sure? I’m not saying you are some guy working for the government I’m just saying you are making shit up and read too much of OSINT twitter so you feel ‘in the know’. You don’t know what intel is being gathered, if that intel even gets out or not. Like why should the US feel compelled to share with Ukraine? Because they are on the same side? From the few statements they seem more interested in using the war to pay off the MIC similar to Afghanistan and it doesn’t seem like any intel was gained over a 20 year period.

              • Rapidcreek@reddthat.com
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                10 months ago

                I am sure because it is publicly reported that we (the US) does share intelligence with Ukraine. Hope that helps

                • notceps [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  Lol that’s not how this works. Saying “We share intelligence” is worlds apart from what you want to imply here, again stop being some weird wannabe OSINT guy, at most Ukranians get satellite images which technically is ‘sharing intelligence’ but not what you are trying to imply here.

                • Annakah69 [she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  Not as much intelligence as it shares with discord leaker man. Lots of those docs were classified noforn.

                  Just another stunning victory of US intelligence.

            • FALGSConaut [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              Judging by the number of western vehicles lost to mines in the last few weeks alone they do not perform the same fighting a peer military with access to large amounts of modern equipment vs ill equipped militias fighting an insurgency

                • FALGSConaut [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  No, but they haven’t faced massive minefields, helicopter gunships, artillery, electronic countermeasures, airstrikes, etc when occupying Iraq or Afghanistan. Fighting guerrillas and fighting a peer army are two entirely different beasts, and we see the proof in more western tanks being lost in 2 months than USA lost in 2 decades in Iraq or Afghanistan

            • ThereRisesARedStar [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              A butter knife works the same when cutting butter or steel. It still isn’t useful for cutting steel. This is what they’re trying to communicate.

              A reaper drone works the same when blowing up random weddings or when flying in airspace with a networked AA system of S300s, S400s, and S500s

              Which is to say we know the underlying physics continues to operate the same but the context changes how useful the equipment is, because a butterknife is made for butter and a Reaper is made for blowing up weddings without an air defense network nearby.

                • FALGSConaut [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  They had gunships in Afghanistan and US still lost, not sure I see your point here. Not to mention the Taliban didn’t have close to the anti-aircraft capabilities that the Russian military has. AC-130s work fine for bombing defenseless hospitals, but against a force with radar, electronic countermeasures, anti-aircraft missiles, fighter jets, and all the other tools that a modern military has access to? I think the gunships would not be nearly as effective as you think

                • Annakah69 [she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  Russia has the best air defense in the world. C-130 is a big slow moving target. Even in Afghanistan they operated only at night.

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              10 months ago

              I do find these comments entertaining. It reinforces my belief that US hubris is leading to it’s decline. Imagine believing your own lies when its literally your country’s existence on the line.

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                10 months ago

                … K

                We clearly have fundamental, serious issues – but you’d have to be completely delusional if “actual millitary strength” is something you think the USA lacks and Russia is anyway comparable. They’re in a stalemate with with a small country using 40 year old western equipment.

                • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  The US lost Afghanistan where their enemies had no airsupport and old equipmemt and weren’t being supplied by the global hegemon. They also lost Vietnam which they fought a much smaller less well equipped country.

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                  10 months ago

                  So it seems you aren’t aware about the $50 billion of military hardware, training, mercenaries, and aid that NATO have provided Ukraine since 2014. Are you being disingeneous for the sake of winning the argument or are you acting in good faith? I need to know whether I should continue to engage or if you’re just trolling/playing dumb.

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      10 months ago

      All those folks in the 50+ age group that grew up with “Russia is enemy #1” are probably cycling through waves of intense work and prolonged orgasm.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the first things considered in strategizing any armed conflict is whether they want Russia and China to know that we have X or are capable of Y. Russia has shown their hand. If they could do more, they would have by now.

      It has also taught NATO that Russia is still in the barbaric tactics mindset. Hospitals, schools, churches, shipping centers - they’re all valid targets. If Russia wants a position, they’ll level the entire town. That certainly changes the plans, of anyone thought they would abode by the Geneva Conventions.

      • rastilin@kbin.social
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        10 months ago

        All those folks in the 50+ age group that grew up with “Russia is enemy #1” are probably cycling through waves of intense work and prolonged orgasm.

        The ones that haven’t suddenly decided that Russia is our best friend all of a sudden for some reason that I still can’t figure out. This is even considering that Russia was found to have been paying out bounties on dead American soldiers, or that they had people assassinated in the UK. Certainly it should be a disqualifier that Russia isn’t a true Democracy and had Putin’s political opponents jailed. Two Democracies won’t directly start a conflict against each other, but that doesn’t hold up between Democracies and non-Democracies.

        My hope is that as Russia runs out of money and organization to fund overseas psyops, the sheen will wear off.

        • awwwyissss@lemm.ee
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          10 months ago

          My hope is that as Russia runs out of money and organization to fund overseas psyops, the sheen will wear off.

          Same, feels like the democracies of the world really got caught with their pants down by authoritarian operatives and their LLMs on social media.

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          10 months ago

          Putin will only run out of money once the price of oil nosedives.

          That won’t happen because Saudi Arabia has been squeezing oil output to keep the price high because they need the money for their countries transformation to a horror Show (different discussion required there) and they basically keep squeezing until the US gives them a whole lot of concessions that they don’t want to…

        • argv_minus_one@beehaw.org
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          10 months ago

          The ones that haven’t suddenly decided that Russia is our best friend all of a sudden for some reason that I still can’t figure out.

          The reason is money. Either they got paid by Putin or they’ve been brainwashed by someone who got paid by Putin.

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        10 months ago

        The Russians have less tactics and capabilities than NATO thought. Now it is a matter of how quickly they can be overwhelmed should it come to it. Their big problem is mid level command.

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        10 months ago

        It has also taught NATO that Russia is still in the barbaric tactics mindset.

        Oh those backwards Russians, still stuck in the past, where they were just a bunch of barbarian hordes. I assume the West, by contrast, has developed a civilized kind of warfare, as befitting their superior civilized culture? That’s what you’re saying, right?

        The civilized West would never… oh yeah they would and they did, repeatedly, and it was worse actually in e.g. Iraq. So all this “barbarism” shit is just racism with no basis in reality.

        • figaro@lemdro.id
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          10 months ago

          Or both sides suck and all war is bad, and no one should attack sovereign countries

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            10 months ago

            Russia is still using barbaric tactics, according to the person I replied to. This implies that barbarism is typical (and backwards) of Russia, like that racist trope about barbaric Mongol hordes. It also implies that someone else (presumably NATO, which they mention) isn’t using barbaric tactics, which is blatantly untrue.

            I don’t understand how what you wrote is a addressing my post? What’s your point?

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              10 months ago

              Has Russia been bombing civilian apartment buildings in Ukraine?

              Please note, I am asking nothing about NATO or America. I agree, the US has committed atrocities in other countries at war. I’m asking specifically if Russia has bombed civilian apartment buildings in Ukraine.

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                10 months ago

                So it’s not racist to say Russia is still in a barbaric mindset, because they are bombing apartment buildings in Ukraine? Is that it? Even though the way it was phrased implies that barbarism is typical of Russia and its history, and also falsely implies NATO isn’t barbaric and isn’t doing the same thing, and it’s a well-known racist trope?

                This person’s comment exhibits the common double standard of the good civilized nations vs. the uncivilized primitives bullshit, which is about the oldest racist narrative there is.

                • figaro@lemdro.id
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                  10 months ago

                  I didn’t say anything about the people. Every Russian person I have met is super nice.

                  Governments though, they suck. Governments bomb apartment buildings full of people. These particular governments are barbaric.

                  I think it is important to acknowledge that both the US government and the Russian government are responsible for terrible atrocities. It is not racist to say that.

    • Grimble [he/him,they/them]@hexbear.net
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      10 months ago

      Someone should go bunker-hunting as a ‘lost urbex enthusiast’ and put them on a map. Maybe some backchannel archive in case they go ‘missing’. Once the list/map goes public, thousands of unmissed tech sociopaths turn to pink mist overnight.

    • JoYo@lemmy.ml
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      10 months ago

      the whole world is sending people to become veterans so they can return with their experience and become trainers.

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    10 months ago

    Haters gonna hate. Still though, they’ll need to be cordial if some of these critics are also paying Ukrainian bills. Being rude is the fast track to falling out of favor with foriegn taxpayers.

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              10 months ago

              Even Prigozhin said that the supposed genocide in Donbas is 100% a Russian propaganda fabrication. Stop parroting that bullshit.

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                  10 months ago

                  I also think cake tastes good which aligns me straight with Hitler.

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                  10 months ago

                  Oh there’s plenty of other reasons to impeach Trump. Why would he even be impeached over that, though. I don’t really follow US news, it’s silly over there.

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                10 months ago

                Nobody said there was a genocide as far as I know, but there were many ethnic cleansing attempts.

                On the contrary calling Russia activities “genocide” was very common. Programmed morons.

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                  10 months ago

                  Ethnic cleansing of Russian speakers by what, a Russian-speaking army?

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                  10 months ago

                  “You and I know what is happening in Donbass,” referring to the conflict zone in the east of the country, adding that: “It certainly looks like genocide.”

                  Putin has previously made similar comparisons about the war in eastern Ukraine including in 2015 and 2019.

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                10 months ago

                the supposed genocide in Donbas is 100% a Russian propaganda fabrication

                :PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS::PIGPOOPBALLS:

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      They’re tired and weary from the onslaught of war fringe to safe their country from Putins aggression. Any dig at their progress is a dig at morale that spreads not only through the ranks, but also to the general public. There is a time for constructive criticism, but that should be done in private with actual solutions offered by those criticizing. I understand their needs to be some decorum but you can’t blame them for what I would consider a mild retort as their countrymen die trying to retake their land everyday.

      • UnicodeHamSic [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        Yeah, but like, they are their worst countrymen. Nazis and such. No one in the war stands to win anything. They will still pay their landlords and the corrupt banks for the right to live in now freshly burned down houses. Wages will stay super low, the wartime reduction becoming a reconstruction reduction whenever it ends. Anyone from Ukraine who is able to escape the nazis ought to defect to Russia where they would be taken care of a little better.

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          10 months ago

          Hopping from a nation which employs fascist militia to a fascist-governed one isn’t a solution to anything. All fascists involved suck shit but sheesh, let’s not hope for a worse outcome

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              10 months ago

              Like the Baltics post fall of the Soviet Union: Beeline for EU membership. Also Zelensky already said that Ukraine is willing to let go of Belgorod in exchange for NATO membership.

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                10 months ago

                They can fuck off. Europeans are already paying through the nose for America’s terrorist attack on our infrastructure. Paying for America’s latest war is not going to happen.

                • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                  10 months ago

                  And I was parroting it.

                  But I wouldn’t be surprised if Ukraine at some point occupies some fields somewhere just to make sure that whoever’s going to be in power after Putin will be disposed is going to sit down and talk reparations etc.

          • duderium [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            Hopping from a nation which employs fascist militia to a fascist-governed one isn’t a solution to anything. All fascists involved suck shit but sheesh, let’s not hope for a worse outcome

            Hopping from a country in which Nazism is official policy to one in which Nazism is outlawed. It really is exactly the same, which is why the people who say this always make excuses for Ukraine and the fascist dictatorship masquerading as democracy which is the USA.

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                10 months ago

                There’s a recent story about Russia’s rehabilitation of Nazism law here:

                https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65024254

                It was implemented years ago, at which time the American corporate press did quite a lot of hand-wringing over protecting Nazis’ right to openly plan the extermination of Jews like me. When your own media sources are defending Nazism, maybe it’s time for a little self-examination and reflection?

                • h3doublehockeysticks [she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  Okay but is Oleg Orlov a nazi? Like I googled the guy and all I can think is him being a fairly generic anticommunist and a person calling Putin a fascist, the raid in question seems to be because he is saying that the war in Ukraine is turning Russia into a totalitarian fascist state. Which doesn’t seem like a nazi thing to say.

                  Edit: Also he put a couple of nazis in a database of people who were wrongfully repressed by stalin, which is pretty nazilike I gotta say. Although they said that was in error?

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        10 months ago

        It’s not about decorum, it’s about the pointless deaths of hundreds of thousands.

        Not trying to hate, but you narrowed in on excusing Ukraine for saying a mean thing to the West and its supporters. Reexamine your priorities.

  • macniel@feddit.de
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    10 months ago

    Good for Kyiv. Those armchair generals should shut up and fight if they think things are going slowly.

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      10 months ago

      Kviv is filled with Nazi losers. The only thing that will be good is when they inevitably capitulate

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            10 months ago

            Yeah that’s how wars usually end, right? A country leaves and then negotiations start.

            Since we’re in imaginationland, how about all ukrainians get a free dolphin?

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            10 months ago

            Your comment makes me want to see a fan cut of Captain America where he just gets the shit beaten out of him and his limbs ripped off and he dies and every five minutes “I can do this all day” but it never turns around and he fucking dies. He never appears to make a come back. He just keeps getting his ass kicked and never stops saying the line. Except it’s not his ass getting kicked, it’s some random children he took off the street and forced to be child soldiers or he’d kill them. And he just keeps saying “I can do this all day” while tens of thousands of people keep getting killed and not once for any reason or goal that progress is made towards. Just tens of thousands of dead bodies every month. “I can do this all day” except he’s not even there he’s on an internet forum. It’s still tens of thousand of dead bodies but not his. And he’ll never give up. But he’ll never get any closer to winning. Just death to countless people who aren’t him. He can do it all day. And every time he says it you can tell he feels really cool and badass. He’s Captain America. He doesn’t quit just because it looks bad.

          • Babs [she/her]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            Do you think it is realistic that Russia will unilaterally pull out? The war will end when Russia leaves, but Russia isn’t going to leave until they are pushed out, negotiations are had, or Ukraine is destroyed. The first possibility is becoming increasingly more unlikely, and the last is something that nobody should want

            That leaves negotiations. I think Ukraine should come to the table while they still have some leverage, which is decreasing every week that they throw their men into the meat grinder without meaningful gains.

            • sunbeam60@lemmy.one
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              10 months ago

              It doesn’t leave only negotiations. Russia tried for 10+ years in Afghanistan. The US the same, there and in Vietnam. There is such as giving up and going home. That’s the “win” a small state can inflict on a large one. I don’t think that’s where Ukraine and Russia is headed, but there’s a quick for Ukraine and a slow “win” for Ukraine.

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                10 months ago

                Wait, so your ideal is instead of negotiations, in the same vein as Afghanistan, Ukraine experiences this horrible war for another 9 years and then becomes a state ruled by the fighters involved in the war with the most extremist far right ideology rule it as a theocracy? To be clear that ideology in this case is Nazism.

                You don’t sound like an ally of the Ukrainian people.

                • sunbeam60@lemmy.one
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                  10 months ago

                  For sure there’s a real risk Ukraine isn’t winning this war. But there’s never been a war where there’s absolute certainty one side will win, until we get to the “downfall” times.