A Kentucky woman Friday filed an emergency class-action lawsuit, asking a Jefferson County judge to allow her to terminate her pregnancy. It’s the first lawsuit of its kind in Kentucky since the state banned nearly all abortions in 2022 and one of the only times nationwide since before Roe v. Wade in 1973 that an adult woman has asked a court to intervene on her behalf and allow her to get an abortion.
Pregnancy comes with medical risk to the mother. Restricting abortion access is a clear violation of the 14th amendment.
Abortion is healthcare.
I mean, “other people” also comes as a health risk. This by itself is not an argument.
And if I interact with you the state doesn’t try to deny me medical treatment for whatever condition you gave me.
Sadly even that isn’t true anymore. Someone I used to work with died recently of an unknown upper respiratory infection after being turned away by his local hospital 3 times. He eventually coughed until something ruptured and he died due to internal bleeding.
He had a decent paying job with health insurance and likely contracted his infection at work, yet he was denied admission to the hospital for some reasons that his widow and daughter may only find out with a lengthy court battle they can’t afford.
Welcome to the dystopia, it’s just getting started.
being turned away by his local hospital 3 times
state run hospital or private entity? only asking because the answer is obviously the latter and this is an apples to oranges argument
I wonder if he was turned away for being unvaccinated…
I don’t know but I suppose it could be a possibility. My assumption is that he was probably turned away because of understaffing. The hospital he was trying to go to was almost completely staffed with travel nurses a year or two ago and many of those nurses left as working conditions deteriorated. It’s all just speculation from me though. The whole thing is quite sad but also infuriating.
Do you mind sharing the state?
He lived/died in Arkansas.
Yes, the healthcare system needs to be fixed. That is definitely a concern with the healthcare system, but unless there was a law denying them treatment that is a different discussion.
Unless it’s a pregnancy.
That was exactly the point, yes.
Keep in mind, the main reason why your camp uses this rhetoric is because you want to tie abortion rights to the constitution. That way, it becomes mandatory for all states to respect them.
Yes, all states should protect women’s rights, are you kidding?
The other side thinks abortion is not a right.
Your side wants it to be a right so states can’t decide for themselves.
As the constitution is written right now, tying abortion to an amendment is a stretch. This is why the ruling that gave constitutional protection of abortion was overturned.
The only good faith argument I’ve seen is that democrats should’ve tried harder to explicitly add it to the constitution. That way they don’t have to contort the interpretation of amendments to suit their agenda.
But, as tribalists go, it’s okay when your tribe does it (14th amendment) but bad when other tribes do it (2nd amendment.) And the worst people of all are the ones who call it out.
The other side thinks freedom from slavery is not a right.
Your side wants freedom from slavery to be a right so states can’t decide for themselves.
You 160 years ago.
That’s completely true. Good thing we amended the constitution to ban slavery so it can’t be overturned as easily as Roe v. Wade.
So you’re saying we can’t amend the Constitution to codify abortion rights but it’s a good thing we amended to Constitution to ban slavery?
No. What makes you think I’m saying that?
Too bad it’s effectively impossible to amend the Constitution anymore.
Yes. In an ideal world we would be able to add abortion protections to the constitution.
Unfortunately, in the world we live in, I feel it’s up to the states to prove their way is better. Just like with marijuana.
Your side wants it to be a right so states can’t decide for themselves.
Meanwhile on the other side States are trying to make it illegal to pass through them on the way to get an abortion, and to ban the abortion pill Federally.
Sounds less like “letting States decide for themselves” and more like “letting these states decide for everyone else.”
How about letting people decide for themselves?
“letting states decide for themselves” is the narrow end of the wedge. just like how the confederacy wanted to “let states decide for themselves” about slavery, then insisted the federal government override free states, tried to militarily annex territories that wanted to be free states, and put it in their constitution that no member could be a free state. they’ll “let states decide for themselves” as long as they make the right decision, then they’ll decide federally for the states that “decided for themselves” wrong.
conservatives only respect two freedoms: the freedom to do what they want, and the freedom to force you to do what they want.
A factual correction: the Confederacy did not want to let states decide for themselves whether to allow slavery. The main difference between the US and Confederate constitutions was that the Confederate one explicitly denied states the right to ban slavery.
and put it in their constitution that no member could be a free state
that seems to be what I said
How about letting people decide for themselves?
I’m all for that.
Meanwhile on the other side States are trying to make it illegal to pass through them on the way to get an abortion, and to ban the abortion pill Federally. Sounds less like “letting States decide for themselves” and more like “letting these states decide for everyone else.”
Of course, they’re not above that. They absolutely want to push the needle so they can push it further. Overturning Roe v. Wade was just another step along that path.
One of these is to allow women to terminate a life threatening pregnancy or one that they don’t want, perhaps from rape, or because they can’t afford to have a child and it would be living in poverty.
The other one is an effort to stop people machine gunning children in schools, shooting people for using their driveway to turn around or shooting people though thier front door when they knock on it.
If you think those two stances are comparable and both should be cancelled out because of technicalities then you need to get your head examined.
Okay.
Oh let’s discuss the second amendment. Tell me, who is your commanding officer in your well-regulated militia? What rank do you hold? Where is your uniform? How much compensation are you given for your service? I hope you are not engaged in stolen valor.
Where does the 2nd amendment specify any of that as being necessary?
You can argue it’s a poorly written amendment, but trying to argue it means things that it clearly doesn’t just to support your agenda is playing right into my arguments of tribalism and hypocrisy.
Thank you for proving my points.
It’s not a poorly-written amendment unless you ignore the context of the Articles of Confederation, which is where the phrase ‘well-regulated militia’ came from and in which it was explicitly defined:
every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage. from section VI
That was unambiguously what ‘well-regulated militia’ meant when the Constitution was drafted, and was its intended meaning. That context has been lost and/or deliberately obscured in recent years – specifically since the 2008 Heller decision that reinterpreted the 2A to ignore that context and how grammar works in order to include the rights of individuals.
Most people today are fine with that reinterpretation (or are simply unaware it happened), but my point is a core amendment was reinterpreted recently in much the same way you’ve been arguing against.
Why was it fine for the 2A but bodily autonomy is a bridge too far?
Well regulated militia.
Those words are not there by accident. You claim that you have a right to a murder machine because of the text, the text says your murder machine is for the purpose of a well regulated militia. So please describe your militia to me.
Your side wants it to be a right so states can’t decide for themselves.
only republican doublethink can cast police jailing people for receiving basic healthcare as “freedom”.
“Basic healthcare.”
There you go obscuring your arguments to make it seem like there is no opposition.
What is that healthcare? See what I mean about arguing in bad faith?
I’m sure people in Egypt will argue Female Genital Mutilation is “basic healthcare.”
that healthcare is abortion. basic healthcare agreed upon worldwide outside of a tiny sliver of americans in a child genital mutilation cult that has established minority rule.
basic healthcare agreed upon worldwide
No, it really isn’t.
Healthcare that’s needed to prevent someone from funny sounds pretty fucking basic to me.
Wtf do you think “well regulated” means?
Whatever you want it to mean.
I want it to mean no one. Hand in your gun to the nearest police department as you are by definition no longer in the well-regulated militia
Okay.
The rule was overturned because the Pope told Roberts and the other Catholics to overturn it.
I’m not so sure about that. Can you share more information? It sounds interesting.
Bodily autonomy enshrined in a nation’s most important document? Yeah that sounds pretty good.
Enshrining it is fine. But taking a weak stance to link it to an amendment that never had it in mind, well, opens you up for its interpretation to get overturned.
It’s not weak. Originalism is weak. It basically asserts that the constitution and all amendments must have been written by psychics who could predict every situation that would arise in the future, forever.
Of course things written decades or centuries ago couldn’t predict what’s relevant today or five decades from now, so of course they should be open to interpretation as the needs of society change. It’s the difference between following the spirit or the letter of the law, and it’s why most laws aren’t merely prescriptive, but outline motivations and goals.
It basically asserts that the constitution and all amendments must have been written by psychics who could predict every situation that would arise in the future, forever.
Not really. The constitution is a living document and was meant to grow with the times.
The problem is that it’s next to impossible to add amendments to the constitution now due to how divided the nation is. This means that in order for abortion to receive protection under the constitution, it would need to be tied to an existing amendment that was not drafted with abortion in mind.
That’s why it’s so crucial to make arguments like “abortion is bodily autonomy” rather than “abortion is a guaranteed right under the xth amendment.”
You are contradicting yourself all over the place in these comments.
Okay.
They were arguing against the term “originalist”. Guess you missed that bit.
The ability to remove stuff from your body seems pretty damn important, though. Infected wisdom teeth, fatty tissue removal, cysts, appendixes infected or not…there’s very good reasons why someone might want to be able to remove something from their body. Seems un-American to infringe on someone’s rights.
That’s fair. I think the other side is arguing any angle that will put the power to legislate back into the hands of states.
Pretty sure they are not. Moving the power closer to the people would be making it a personal choice. Also they would happily adopt a national ban.
Also they would happily adopt a national ban.
I agree.
Or, (and I know this is shocking), none of the rights in the Constitution work if privacy and bodily autonomy aren’t protected. Everything just falls apart.
“your camp”
Yes, this is what tribalism results in.
The respecting women tribe ? Count me in.
Classic conservative move – getting a vaccine during a deadly pandemic is an affront to bodily autonomy rights, but it’s totally okay to force a woman to carry a pregnancy because of religious beliefs.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but they would counter this argument by simply flipping it: “If you can get an abortion why should I have to get a vaccine?”
And, of course, the logic here is that the vaccine helps you and everyone else because the virus won’t spread as much, and the abortion affects — bodily — just the woman. But that won’t matter to their argument.
Didn’t we cover all this in 2021?
Nobody was ever punished for not getting a vaccine in a way that’s remotely comparable to the punishments women and doctors are threatened with for abortions.
Nobody was ever forced to get a vaccine against their will. Forcing women to give birth against their will is the whole point of abortion laws.
Abortion isn’t contagious. Having one doesn’t put people around you in any kind of risk. Being unvaccinated does greatly increase the likelihood that people around you will get sick.
Vaccine mandates were only a thing in the middle of a pandemic. They’ve all been rolled back since the crisis has gotten under control. Abortion restrictions, OTOH, are not temporary and were not created in response to some special circumstance.
But they didn’t get the vaccine and now these women still can’t get abortions. Maybe if they were forced to get the vaccine they could argue that but they weren’t. There was no law requiring normal citizens to get a vaccine but there is a law now stopping normal citizens from getting an abortion. So it seems the group has won both arguments with conflicting hypocritical information
Utilitarianism sucks. Violating sovereignty is wrong in either case. You can refuse to treat someone with Covid because they didn’t get the vaccine when they had the opportunity to. You can shun the person socially for getting an abortion and reject them from your groups. But you can’t reasonably interfere with their body.
The primary ethical punitive act any individual or group may apply to another is to remove one’s presence from their life. If they survive without you, then that’s fine.
Sovereignty resolves a fuckton of organizational and legal issues. Even with it being fairly implicit in the minds of most, it is a massive foundational issue that underpins any reasoning about rights. When the push for mandatory covid vaccines came along, I knew immediately we were at risk of losing abortion, because body sovereignty was on the line - and without sovereignty, there can be no valid moral community.
And if your community isn’t moral, I will simply make my choices, having an abortion if needed, and choosing to get covid rather than getting a vaccine. If you fight me on it, I’ll fight right back, up to the point that you cease to impose your will on me, or on those I recognize as my community.
If the social contract is compulsory, that is called slavery.
TBF It also affects the baby
Fetus*
What baby?
So do school shootings, lack of healthcare, lack of parental leave, lack of affordable housing, lack of public funding for education or childcare or anti-vax tendencies.
Are you sure you didn’t misspell “fetus?”
I love to compare conservative support for vaccines with conservative support for abortion. Now that the GOP caught the dog, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s more conservative support for abortion rights than vaccines.
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Sorry Christian blood god needs blood.
Democrats had fifty freaking years to get something on the books and they did nothing. Shove it into a must pass bill. Fifty years of “it’s decided by the courts, no reason to go further” attitude.
Republicans will literally legalize hunting gay people for sport and the white left is still gonna find a way to make it the Dems’ fault
I mean, being the lesser-evil doesn’t make you good or free from criticism. Lol.
Maybe dems should elect better reps! Then we wouldn’t be in this situation.
That still won’t matter as long as conservatives constantly have a majority in congress
Perhaps democrats should start running better candidates?
Perhaps all the appallingly egregious gerrymandering that ensures democrats can’t win in many areas should be addressed?
Democrats could run Jesus himself and lose in many places.
Democrats could run Jesus in Texas and he’d be lynched.
Absolutely, but gerrymandering isn’t the only issue.
Definitely not. But we have to recognise which issues supersede others, and which must be fixed before it’s even physically possible to address the other things.
It’s like fretting over the train being on schedule before the tracks have been laid. Yes, many things need fixing and several are dire, but without the tracks, shouting at the conductor to make the train go faster is futile.
There’s two conflicting viewpoints here. You need as many pro choice Democrats elected as possible to codify abortion rights.
But that doesn’t happen in just one election cycle. If you punish Democrats for not fixing it immediately, you’ll never build up the necessary numbers. And that’s exactly what happened. Democrats got a huge boost in 2008 that was enough to advance things somewhat. Voters stayed home in 2010 because they didn’t like the limited improvements, and in doing so, handed Republicans the majority and prevented anything more than the limited improvements.
Even Roe wasn’t repealed overnight. It was a multi decade campaign. The left needs to play just as much of a long game to get what we want. There’ll be absolutely no progress if we keep getting to get one large push to the left in 2 years, versus several smaller pushes to the left over 10 years to get to the same point.
You must ask yourself how the Republicans are able to pass such legislation while the Dems can’t ever seem to get anything done “because the Republicans interfere with it”, even with a Democratic super majority.
Doesn’t make much sense.
It was on the books! It was already decided at the Scotus level.
Stare decisis should have applied and Scotus shouldn’t have even heard the case under precedent.The idea that a constitutional amendment needs to be made for something to be “on the books” is absurd.
What happened here is Scotus broke their own rules. They ignored the 9th and the 14th and violated their own principles.
This court is corrupt. Several justices should be impeached and removed.
Roe was settled case law. Pretending it wasn’t is a joke.
I wish it was far more common knowledge that SCOTUS doesn’t just ignore the 9th amendment, they flagrantly violate it. The amendment says they a right does not need to be explicitly mentioned to be protected – which makes a lot of sense when you think back on American history, because opponents of the Constitution felt that only our enumerated rights were protected and no other freedoms. Hence, why the 9th was made.
The actual text goes further and says that the explicit enumeration of rights in the Constitution should not be used to disparage or forbid our other rights. This is exactly what SCOTUS disobeys, because the “a right must be guaranteed by an amendment” philosophy they’ve adopted for abortion flies in the face of that.
Roe was “something on the books”, sunshine. Until Trump stacked the Supreme Court there wasn’t a need to put anything into law.
And democrats were warned time and time again to codify it into law and not just leave it as a court case.
Really? When? I’d love to see a source for your comment along with the majority Senate, house, and president of all Democrats who all agreed for a long enough period to actually get it passed. Please, inform me of this mass of Democrats who all believed the same thing.
At what point in the last 50 years did Democrats have a majority of pro-choice congresspeople with a president who wouldn’t veto such a bill? Because I’m close to 50 and I don’t remember when that was.
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Remember when Obama care got passed? I think we had the votes at that time
We did? Because that was passed with the help of Joe Donnelly, who was anti-abortion. And with some Republicans, who were also anti-abortion. And it only passed without the public option.
I don’t know that it’s the best example.
Nope. We had exactly 60 votes, and that included moderates who shot down further left provisions of Obamacare like single payer. If not for them, we’d have gotten it.
It’s also very noteworthy that Democrats were a lot more conservative back then – or rather, there were a lot more Manchin types in the party. I don’t think there were even 50 pro abortion Senate votes, frankly. It’s really understated how Democrats have shifted left since Obama, as a product of losing those Manchin seats and only keeping solid blue ones.
That’s what the party of ‘lesser-evil’ gets you.
The ‘lesser’ evil. Lol.
Kentucky woman sues state over abortion ban so she can
terminate her pregnancymurder her child.There, fixed that for you.
Fetuses are not children. Or do you think my balls contain half children?
What about this woman?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar
Fuck all the way off, asshole.
You’re a hypocrite and a liar.
Let me tell you why: Infant mortality (live births that died under 1 year of age) in the US rose by 3% in 2022, increasing for the first time in 20 years from 5.44 per 1000 live births in 2021 to 5.60. (data from the CDC)
Comparing with Europe, you let almost twice of your babies die.
I’m talking about real babies here, babies whose fathers have held them in their arms, changed their diapers, sang them lullabies… And you let them die.
Why is infant mortality in the US the highest of any industrialised nation?
Two reasons: because maternity care in the US is utterly appalling, and because you limit access to abortion. Read more.
You don’t care about children. You care about controlling women. Land of the free allright…
You’re the kind of person who’s kids are going to put them in a home, and you’ll deserve it.
From the article, a nonviable child. So with no abortion it will die anyway probably in pain while also risking the mother’s life.
No, sparky, “terminate her pregnancy” was correct. No child is murdered by an abortion. Claiming otherwise requires profound ignorance of biology and what happens during pregnancy.
Even The Bible says that life begins at first breath, so nope. Not murder.
Scientifically the fetus is a parasite right up until it isn’t, and as long as it cannot live without its mother, it’s not alive. You cannot murder that which was never alive.
So your argument is that tapeworms, vampire bats, mistletoe, and a significant percentage of mushrooms aren’t alive?
There are excellent arguments for abortion access, so FFS please drop this one. It’s counterproductive.
Are you fucking high?
Nah they’d probably have empathy if high
Maybe it’s not the murder you should be making peace with but the idea of all the suffering caused by not having the abortion of a nonviable fetus. People ask What right do we have to end it? Wrong question. What right do we have to force such a thing upon another human? And all anyone is asking you to do is make peace with yourself so another does not suffer. See it as mercy.
/s or serious?
Probably serious, but it’s funny watching him use the same tactic I see in just about every thread.
“Headline should be what supports my agenda.”
There. Fixed it for you.
hey fuck you too, you’re the other person arguing against reproductive rights and that’s all i know about you!
I was never arguing against reproductive rights.
then you fucked up, because you very clearly were. for someone so enthusiastic about judicial rulings, squibbling over definitions, acting neutral and claiming no opinion… it’s funny how all your arguments happen to support fascist policy. Just an oopsie daisy?
and if you want to teach a lesson on tribalism, instead of just pretending to be in the fascist tribe you could try being more human than just a box of contrarian statements against human rights
You’re too far gone.
Wow nice tribalist thinking. You don’t know anything about me except a couple random comments and you think you can make that evaluation? You’re evaluating an ideology not a person at this point - but keep pretending to call out tribalism while doing it yourself!
So you want women to be forced to give birth to babies that will only survive a few hours or days and be in agonizing pain the entire time.
Noted.
I think the title was fine as-is, thanks.
Nope.
Good, let the squishy blob get flushed down a gas station toilet. Let another kid have a better chance.
