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Spez’ thoughts & Wisdom about Musk & Twitter:
But who hasn’t killed their citizens in a simple misunderstanding? Or, if that doesn’t work, America Also Bad! \s
America Also Bad!
Seems like they usually leave out the “also” because apparently two things can’t be bad at the same time. Wouldn’t it be great to live in a world where only one thing is bad? I expect it’d be simpler, at least.
I mean, China fucking sucks and is a shit authoritarian statist government but let’s not pretend America hasn’t done similar things.
Ever heard the stories of how America won the right to unions?
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Columbine Mine Massacre
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Ludlow Massacre
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Thibodaux Massacre
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Battle of Blair Mountain
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Herrin Massacre
Hundreds of people killed in total because they were protesting.
The difference in outcome is that back then the technology was more of a level playing field.
Those things? Also bad.
Incredible that two things can simultaneously be shit, but it’s true.
Congrats. That is exactly what I wrote.
Half this site can’t accomplish holding two thoughts at once
thats what we’re saying lol
Weird how I only ever hear one of those events used to dismiss an entire system of economic organization though
I guess you’re not listening then because “capitalism fucking sucks and is responsible for countless atrocities” is a pretty common tale these days.
Hey man anarcho-syndacalism slaps, no worries if that’s your preference.
Imagine thinking that people are opposed to post-scarcity economics, and not the whole “let’s kill everyone who disagrees with us until we achieve such conditions”
“Just wake me up when we get there” 👍
I use those events in the US (and many more) to condem capitalism. I also use Tianamen (and others) to condem state capitalism.
Can always rely on there being at least one person … “but the USA did XYZ.” Doesn’t change what happened in 1989.
No it doesn’t. But the same people who whine and cry about people using whataboutism in favor of China do the EXACT same thing in favor of the US.
They are both shit. Everyone is tired of each side pretending that only one side is shit.
Go look up to see what China did during the great leap forward and cultural revolution. They killed about 30 million of their own people. I would like you to post a source proving that the United States murdered 30 million of its own people within the past 150 years, as well as persecuting tens of millions of people and sending millions of children from cities to be reeducated with forced labor on camps after being separated from their parents. Hundreds of thousands of intellectuals were murdered for being… Intellectuals.
The only thing that comes close was slavery and the Japanese internment during world War II. However, slavery was abolished over 150 years ago, and during the Japanese internment families were generally kept together and they were not forcibly reeducated.
“Please tell me a time when.this country did terrible things b-b-but only in this certain half of the country’s existence!! Otherwise it’s cheating!!1!”
Conveniently chose a time right where you can ignore the Slavery and the Trail of Tears (% population wise that was just as bad). Not to mention the mass Native American “reeducation” and ripping them away from their families to get a “proper white education”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools
Every government has done terrible things. The US, China, and Russia are among the worst. We can argue about what is “worse.” But that is completely subjective. China literally just did much of what the US did, but on a larger scale 150 years later and with different technology.
Arguably Russia was the worst of them all, but literally all 3 are bad. America pulled itself out of that era and into corporate indetured servitude era of corporations committing genocides and coups in other countries. Personally I think that China is worse than the US and Russia dwarfs both of them, but just because one is maybe marginally worse doesn’t mean the other wasn’t/isn’t bad.
Except they’re nowhere nearly comparable. The US is pretty bad but China is an authoritarian state with internet censorship and state-controlled companies.
The “America also bad” argument feels like a mass murderer saying “well you stabbed a guy 10 years ago, you’re no different!”.
Do u know banana republics, thats a rad story. i think u should look up what usa have done to south american contries.
it doesn’t, but for sure dispels the myth that the US isn’t evil.
No one here holds that myth
I mean that’s the point of the comment. Any conversation about China’s shortcomings necessarily turns into “but US also bad” as if that’s proving a point we don’t already know. This is Lemmy, not the CPAC convention. We’re probably all pretty on board with nuanced positions on the evils of imperial states
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Stop smoking the Copium.
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The one they replied to may have been criticizing “whataboutism”, but it could also be (mis)interpreted as implying the USA has not had similar problems.
But who hasn’t killed their citizens in a simple misunderstanding? Or, if that doesn’t work, America Also Bad! \s
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Who said that
Ah yes the one demonstration to push a government to the left and organize labor that tankies don’t like acknowledging
No, there was another one, interestingly at the exact same time, in Poland. They don’t like that one either.
Could you be more specific? I hadn’t heard about that before
The Solidarity movement, started in 1980 as a series of labor strikes, formed into a large trade union and then a political movement demanding workers’ rights, actual worker control over means of production, and similar socialist policies. It finally forced and won a public election in 1989 (on the very same day of the Tiananmen square crackdown) which in turn led to the end of communist (and Russian) rule in Poland.
Quite ironic, when you think about it… - the working class defeating the communist party!
Tankies when the people being told heirarchy is bad and steals the value of your labor when people actually believe it and try to abolish it:
Also tankies claiming to be anti-imperialist when people want to leave your empire.
Having to live in an authoritarian shithole takes its toll on you after a while.
When oliver Anthony sings that he’s an old world man struggling to live in a new world, all I think about is how strong the old world fought to unionize the work force. I didn’t even know about it until this year. The 1900s labour movement was intense and interesing. Especially reading about it from the future which helps put a lot of current politics into perspective.
a political movement demanding workers’ rights, actual worker control over means of production, and similar socialist policies.
They demanded this, won, and then ignored all of it and introduced neoliberal capitalism pretty much straight away?
Only idiots want communism.
You mean the massive labor strikes calling for the return of the socialist government after inflation skyrocketed 400% (or 300% idc)
Bro China is not real, it’s just the back of Taiwan.
Taiwan numba 1
Actually Taiwan is China as in its the actual legitimate government of China not the occupiers in Beijing
I wouldn’t call the ROG illegitimate since they won the civil war and they are recognised by pretty much every country in the world.
That doesn’t mean I like them more though.
Edit: PRC not ROG lol.
oh yes the far right nationalists who lost the civil war are the legitimate government.
i’m an anarchist. how would you describe your politics?
I mean, all those people are generally dead or in their '90s now, so whatever.
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lmao that was my first thought, this comment section should be very interesting
Given that they defederated from Lemmy.world (at least Hexbear did, idk about lemmygrad), probably not
And thank fuck for that. Site is better off without them.
Lol, for all their enthusiastic talk about “let’s go dunk on the libs”, that sure happened quickly.
fangirls
thanks for the affirmation
you need to go back to reddit, people like you are exactly why it became so shit
Exhibit A.
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bro I was purged 6 times for death threats and “propaganda” you got rookie numbers
Sounds like you have issues that should keep you out of the public (even social media), and I’m not talking about your gender identity.
No, YOU should go back to Reddit.
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The mods are asleep. Crosspost this to all the lemmy.ml communities.
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Marxists don’t sleep, especially us trans ones, our depression doesn’t let us!
You’re not a real Marxist; you’re a Fascist cosplaying as one. Anyone who spends 5 minutes on Hexbear can figure it out. You’re not fooling anyone.
Edit: Lots of people replying to me who are in denial, I see.
I’ve seen every post of theirs in this thread and nothing seems fascist to me, perhaps you merely disagree with them.
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Actually go to Hexbear and you’ll see what I mean.
I’m aware that radicals exist
fooling
You really think that, don’t you?
Maybe I’m just tired of hearing of these lies, I know china didn’t do it, and I know the story is a myth concocted from bits of reality and western media embellishing and skewing details. I’m really just trying to get a rise out of ya’ll.
But how are we fascists? You think we are lying at all hours even when you aren’t looking? It would be easier to just be a fascist if that was the truth. Those movements already exist: Nazbols, MAGA communists, and the like. Why aren’t we them? Why do we always separate ourselves and constantly denounce them? Why do we go through what would be a ridiculous amount of effort to pretend to be communists? Pretend to be leftists? This is a ridiculous assertion in every way!
I dare you to spend 5 minutes on hexbear, minutes not trying to hate us, and just look around. I may be scum yes, but I don’t think they are, far from it in fact. Maybe you’ll see that, or you’ll just keep being the way you are:
Blind and hateful, lashing out at whatever you don’t understand.
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.ml readers interpretation: Tanks (fighting for democracy) brutally killed students
Don’t lump us all in with those naive authoritarian children. Some of us believe the internet deserves a better class of communist.
Or in reality, tanks stop, the driver gets out and talks to the guy.
Bro show non faulty evidence tanks killed anyone in the square
Do you really believe that is what happened? That tanks were used to kill protesters?
No the tanks were there as part of a humanitarian mission /s
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No. how could I? Armored tanks are EXCLUSIVELY implements of peace, they are NEVER used lethally or to inflict harm. The Chinese military DEFINITELY brought in armored tanks for peaceful, humanitarian reasons.
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Did you cleverly infer that from the fact that I said, “no”? Or were their other subtle clues you picked up on?
The pictures of dead, maimed, mutilated civilian corpses and crushed bicycles/cars were actually staged by the protesters to frame the kind, peaceful Chinese military, who were only there to have friendly dialogue with the protestors.
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Please tell me you aren’t this dumb
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I mean, there is that photo of a bunch of crushed human bodies under tank treads that nobody likes to reference.
As it’s not NSFL, I’m not posting. After seeing that image, I lost all doubt that the massacre happened exactly as we know.
And no, I don’t intend this to convince you. I don’t think seeing the photo would convince you either.
where, show me this photo
I can give you ones of mobs burning random people alive on the street
No, sorry. As I said a few times, I don’t keep a file of NSFL grotesque photos like that. If the photos already posted in this thread aren’t enough, my adding the other won’t be. If you can’t convince them with the mountains of clear and simple evidence, you can’t convince Holocaust Deniers, Flat Earthers, or Tienanmen Square deniers with any evidence no matter how disgusting.
I love it I’m a nazi and flat earther now lol
There are actual images of that happening. It’s genuinely an undisputable event.
Not denying it happened, but I couldn’t find any images of such. Although it won’t do much to change the minds of some people, linking or embedding the actual image would make your statement much stronger :)
Someone already produced the “crushed bicycle” picture here with a couple crushed/mutilated bodies. It’s not the only one, but it strikes a chord of being the least NSFL while still proving the event.
Looks like they were posted here after my comment. Pro-CCP people are probably still going to find a way to justify it for the greater good or something like that, but at least now they can’t deny there are photos.
I’m getting bugged for the other photo heavy now, by people telling me they can give back with photos of “the mob burning people”. Pro-CCP people don’t even consider the basically-confession and disagreement of the leader of the Communist party (which led to his long-term house-arrest).
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CCP agent detected ( •_•)>⌐■-■
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I don’t know where people get these ideas from. Genuinely curious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Liberation_Army_at_the_1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre#Tank_encounters_students_at_Liubukou and other accounts.
Does that whole section quote only a single source in Chinese that I can’t read? Yes. You can believe it or not, I don’t care. Assuming that your curiosity into why people believe that protesters got mowed down by tanks is genuine, this should answer your question.
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That’s a fairly weak counterpoint. It seems really meaningless who died or didn’t, the state crushed protests. A lot of ml assertion about the west is accurate but then to turn around to be blindly nationalist. Additionally, Mao was not a good leader. He likely was fairly correct in his goals, but a failure in methodology and leadership. Largely because of nationalism and the state.
What are you even responding to? I didn’t say anything about Mao, who died vs surviving, or what people think about the West. I wasn’t even making a counterpoint, I was indulging someone’s genuine curiosity.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=qq8zFLIftGk
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
West Taiwan did some bad shit.
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I wonder what actual Chinese people think, anyone originally from China able to weigh in?
According to my aunt, whose parents fled the Cultural Revolution when she was a teenager:
It’s like if Chinese people kept trying to give you shit about the Kent State massacre and not Vietnam itself.
That’s interesting.
According to my aunt, whose parents fled the Cultural Revolution when she was a teenager:
lmao I will strive to turn this reactionary in to the CPC
This is why everyone hates you and the working class rejects you fucking stop with the larping
Nah, irl they hate me cause im trans girl with autism
cool name tho, Imma write that one down next to Privatized Sun
From my conversations with mainland Chinese, they often tout the line that the US was somehow involved, so it was partly an excusable defense of the homeland against dangerously co-opted students. That said, most acknowledge that it was pretty bad. But these are also well-educated Chinese working abroad, so I assume the majority of Chinese don’t know much.
One story I heard retold by an English teacher working in Nanjing that I used to know was about the experience of one of the people involved in the protests…or at least they were an academic in Beijing at the time of the massacre. They were really depressed 20 years later and felt that nobody around them, particularly their students, knew anything.
The people I have spoken to in China understand something happened, and most of them know that it was the suppression of a student protest movement. From there the knowledge diverges as to what kind of protest movement and how violent was the suppression and whether it was justified. My family will kind of halfheartedly repeat some version of the party line but acknowledge it was a fucked up situation, and they also understand that the censorship surrounding it is awkward and unnecessary.
Generally the Chinese I have spoken to are mostly aware of and opposed to the CCP’s censorship, but they also don’t really like to talk about it for obvious reasons.
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閉嘴書呆子
干嘛那么凶，别人就问一句问题
未曾设想在这里能看见中文回复 笑死
Never saw the full video… You can hear machine gun fire towards the end.
Has the 50 cent party found us yet? 🤣
we’re in your walls
please pass some cheese through the outlets, we get hungry sometimes
Starve.
Non Euclidean 4D Tiananmen spheroid.
2d citizens afterwards though
For those not around when that happened, i remember it this way, after 20 years of booze, weed & hookers:
The student protest was extremely peaceful and organized. There were student delegations that would report up to student representatives, educatio delegation, housing delegation, for example. The representatives were negotiating with Party people. It was unclear at the time if the Party people were indicative of the top brass. But there was a worldwide feeling something good and right might be changing in China. If I recall correctly this went on for weeks, so the implications were setting in.
Then it all changed when the Fire Nation attacked.
What the video & still represent is not 1 man facing a line of tanks. It a culmination of a generation of students frustrated enough but clever enough to find a way to negotiate a change and when the Army came in they knew they failed. The world knew they failed. The question was how badly that failure was. There were a few days when nothing happened after this video. Then it happened all at once. And the rest as they say is History – repression, violence, killing, abductions, lost family members, and rewriting history.
Like the Velvet Revolutions of the Middle East, it was a short time of hope for a better future, for the students & for their nation.
That feeling stays & that feeling is what China wants their populace to forget - and you forget by meming this historic picture without context.
P.S I don’t know if the man was ever found out, but I hope he stays anonymous.
Are you at least paid to write this emotional propaganda fantasy? Chinese students didn’t give a damn how you felt.
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Can we morph the Tiananmen Square into a hyperbolic shape next?
