Gretchen Whitmer responds to calls by some Democrats to vote ‘uncommitted’ in Michigan’s primary on Tuesday
Gretchen Whitmer, the Michigan governor, pushed back on calls to not vote for Joe Biden over his handling of the Israel-Gaza conflict, saying on Sunday that could help Trump get re-elected.
“It’s important not to lose sight of the fact that any vote that’s not cast for Joe Biden supports a second Trump term,” she said on Sunday during an interview on CNN’s State of the Union. “A second Trump term would be devastating. Not just on fundamental rights, not just on our democracy here at home, but also when it comes to foreign policy. This was a man who promoted a Muslim ban.”
Whitmer, who is a co-chair of Biden’s 2024 campaign, also said she wasn’t sure what to expect when it came to the protest vote.
Rashida Tlaib, a Democrat who is the only Palestinian-American serving in Congress, urged Democrats last week to vote “uncommitted” in Michigan’s 27 February primary.
Alternate title: Michigan governor explains first past the post voting. People unhappy.
Biden supports genocide. Centrists happy.
This is a primary. Voting for Biden won’t make it less likely that Trump will be elected.
So they’re not even the official candidates yet? Just how long is your election cycle?
4 years.
Neoliberals never let a silly thing like facts get in their way.
They’re just republicans who don’t want the cool kids to hate them.
The fucked up part is theyre the only other option this election, and they know it.
It’s not good enough for them that Biden is better than trump, they want 100% support for all the fucked up shit Biden is doing as well.
It’s a fucking primary.
This is literally the only point in time we can try to drag Biden too the left, will we get him far enough that he stops being pro-genocide? Probably not, dude is all in on Israel and always has been.
But telling people they don’t even get to vote “not committed” in a fucking meaningless primary is something so undemocratic if you told me it would happen this primary I’d have bet millions on it being republicans.
But then again, I’d have bet billions on them being the ones to pull delegates for something the state party had zero control over.
Not holding Dems to standards may have already fucked the country for good.
It’s a fucking primary
I don’t know why people don’t get this.
Since 2000 progressives have been told to vote for who you want in the primary and then hold your nose in the general.
Now we’re supposed to hold our nose in the primary, too?!
I don’t have enough clothespins for this bullshit.
Since 2000 progressives have been told to vote for who you want in the primary and then hold your nose in the general.
NH went progressive over party favorite moderate the last two primaries they had that counted…
So this party the DNC said their votes count for nothing, then Biden withdrew and threw money at a write in campaign so the headlines would be “Biden wins even as a write in!”
And not:
“DNC just made NH primary meaningless for something only NH republican officials could change!”
They know this is just a primary.
They’re just conservatives deep down and give zero fucks lying and destroying democracy if they win. And it’s not enough to win, they demand 100% loyalty.
Just like trumpers.
It’s why Dem standards can’t just be “better than a Republican”.
it’s why the democratic party is going to fracture.
Hopely only slightly after the republican party. But both are trying to be the last one standing, so to speak.
Now we’re supposed to hold our nose in the primary, too?!
“Behave, or else you get the Orange Turd.” seems to be the message.
The problem is Progressives aren’t offering up any other option. Who am I supposed to vote FOR this time around? “No one” isn’t much of a rallying cry.
Why should they? the DNC will never allow a progressive to be the party candidate. which is why we didn’t have bernie in '16… like the VOTERS WANTED.
I would say 2020 was the real stinger… clyburn in south carolina playing king maker.
New Hampshire went for Sanders in 2020, and were punished by losing their primary representation in 2024. South Carolina proved pivotal to the Biden campaign, so they’re rewarded by going first.
Yuuuup. There were plenty of better states to choose if they just wanted a less-white state. Georgia is diverse and actually in play, but instead we kick off with a state that’s deep red with an ineffectual Democratic party because they voted the way the winners liked.
If the voters wanted Bernie in '16, they could have gotten off of their collective asses and voted for him. He was on every single state ballot. The fact is, more voters voted for Hillary.
Because in 2020 the progressive candidate was the front runner. 4 years later they have no one else to offer up? No wants to vote for Biden. This is the progressive caucus’s moment, and they’re failing to respond to what the voters want.
The progressive caucus fell apart the last couple years. Even Fetterman has started towing the line.
Then to be quite honest that’s something progressives need to focus on and work through if they want to be taken seriously going forward. Railing against Biden will only get them so far. At the end of the day, voters need something to be in favor of, to rally behind.
Agree completely, which is why I hope more progressives keep running for local offices
Progressivism is a marble on a hill. Either they roll to the right and join the liberals because they support and believe in an unjust hierarchical system as long as it’s sufficiently pinkwashed or roll hard left because they see the issue is the system itself
The hill ima die on: sortition
If progressives had put someone up against an incumbent they would have been accused of wanting Trump to win.
Also, their candidate would be deemed unelectable and voting for them in the primary would be helping Trump to win.
Also, America is not a progressive country and even if they won the nomination they’d probably lose.
Why? Because America wants this shitshow. Why else would they keep choosing it? They don’t want problems solved, they want arguments and hot takes and “slams” and “bashes.”
There are great progressive candidates running. You just don’t see it because the DNC is hard at work behind the scenes canceling primaries, removing candidates from the ballot, instructing the corporate media to not report on it, and sending out people like Whitmer to manufacture consent for there being no actual primary debates or competition.
Biden’s ego demands a second term, there’s no voter choice involved here.
I cannot remember an election where the incumbent got primaried. And even if we tried we’d be accused of hurting the establishment candidate’s chances in the general.
The Dem olds in Congress were not happy to see AOC stomp on Crowley (10 term incumbent) back in '18 (I think).
You have to know that’s not comparable to a presidential election
And that’s why they pulled out all the stops to block Cisneros and support anti-choice NRA stooge Cuellar.
Eric Cantor but that’s not exactly a 1:1 comparison.
There’s nothing in this article that indicates she’s talking about the primary vs the general election
True. Which is just bad reporting
Who is on the ballot that drives him left exactly? What’s the name?
Is someone telling you you don’t “get” to vote how you want? Telling someone you disagree with their choice or that they’re dumb for voting a certain way is not at all stopping that person from voting how they want and not at all undemocratic
I think part of the problem is that people are so on edge with how close we are to democracy ending. And how fine, and even eager many are to move on to full fascism. It is a primary though. And what really matters is a commitment to defeat fascism in November.
However you don’t do yourself any favors acting like a teenage edge lord. Saying hyperbolic bs like pro-genocide etc etc etc. Biden’s actions on the front are absolutely questionable. Poor strategy wise considering Bibi isn’t going to listen to anyone. And just going to do whatever he wants. So all Biden is likely going to get out of it is a tarnished image. Even if we cut Israel off completely, something Biden can’t do himself. It wouldn’t stop Bibi the butcher. But then it’s always easier to call hyperbolic names than it is to come up with actual working solutions.
I’m not trying to defend the “pro genocide” thing at all, although I’m expecting to be down voted regardless, but…
Isn’t support for Israel over Gaza an American / western thing rather than specifically Biden?
Like is it reasonably possible to have a POTUS that wouldn’t support Israel?
I guess they could be more overt in their condemnation of Israel’s behaviour, but I’m not sure how meaningful that is.
Isn’t support for Israel over Gaza an American / western thing rather than specifically Biden?
Biden has spent 50 years calling himself a Zionist and saying nothing will ever make him stop supporting Israel.
It’s hard to think anyone believes that’s normal…
Like is it reasonably possible to have a POTUS that wouldn’t support Israel?
Bernie and every other progressive.
you’re pro genocide
No u.
you clearly have a pro-trump agenda, as evidenced by your comment history…
you’re spam, and pro-genocideYou’ve completely lost the thread.
ok, tropical ding dong
Trump, the one who moved the US embassy would, if anything, support Israel even more aggressively than Biden.
It’s so infuriating how difficult it is for people to understand this
There are also a large amount of people who understand this and are intentionally acting as if they don’t. This is just this round’s version of the ‘walk away’ people from previous elections.
Walk away is such a shitty psyop. I feel bad for anyone stupid enough to fall for the obvious bullshit.
Some people love genocide so much they cannot imagine anyone opposing it without ulterior motives.
Some people love to argue in bad faith.
Is there a good faith argument that can be made in favor of supporting genocide?
No one is supporting genocide. Hence why Oderus implied you were arguing in bad faith. Quit now before you make an ass of yourself.
“Opposition to genocide isn’t real”, is pretty close to supporting it.
A young man just lit himself on fire to protest our complicity in the genocide, this isn’t a made up issue. The people up in arms in my social feeds aren’t faceless Russians, they the people who would work past campaigns and donate to Democrats.
Biden circumvented congress to sell weapons to Netanyahu for genocide. That’s support for genocide.
You can’t justify support for genocide, and I doubt you want Biden to stop doing so. So let’s see which Standard Centrist Dismissal you select instead.
Just like @dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com said, no one is arguing for genocide so you’re not arguing in good faith. Imagine being so blind and you think Trump and Biden are the same. Unreal how reductive some people are.
If it were possible, you would be ashamed of your comment but here you are.
Imagine being so blind and you think Trump and Biden are the same.
I didn’t say that either. Biden should stop supporting genocide.
Democrats should not be supporting genocide. Regardless of how much worse the alternative is.
The alternative appears to be that same genocide plus an authoritarian state run by a corrupt egoistist BTW. Voting for a party is and never has been a vote to support literally every policy they stand on.
I wasn’t advocating for not voting for Biden; I was advocating for Biden to cease his support for Netanyahu’s genocide.
When you make statements like
Democrats should not be supporting genocide. Regardless of how much worse the alternative is
You need to understand that the alternative is Trump. Stop creating bullshit noise and get on the same page as everyone else.
The alternative is Biden not supporting genocide, and if it takes threats to not vote for him to do it, that’s well worth it. You act like everything is baked into stone and none of these current actions could have a material impact on the people that are right now dying.
You need to understand that the alternative is Trump.
“But they’re worse” does not justify supporting genocide. Nothing justifies supporting genocide. Biden should stop.
Most would agree, but putting a worse person in power through apathy or inaction isn’t the solution.
I’m not advocating for voting for Trump or not voting.
Democrats should not be supporting genocide.
WOW THANKS FOR THE TIP
I’ll stop saying it if they ever stop doing it.
Shame Dems won’t take it
And what does that look like to you this election cycle?
Stop the bullshit double speak, half truth skirting around the conversation and say, flat out and in plain English, how do you propose we handle this situation as a voter? Give us an actual solution.
We should continue the protests until Biden stops supporting genocide.
We should vote for Biden and not Trump. Democrats should not support genocide. The two aren’t contradictory.
Stop the bullshit double speak
“Democrats should not support genocide” is a simple, direct statement.
Your point is received. It’s a shitty point, but please, you keep trying to elaborate but you just keep repeating the same useless point.
There isn’t one, unless we can somehow replace key centre-right policymakers inside the Democrat party and drag the party to a more firmly progressive platform
Yep, so vote Bernie in the primaries, then when he loses the primary and the election is Biden vs Trump vote Biden.
It sucks that our election system has been warped into a two party shitshow, but here we are.
Our ecosystem will not survive a Trump term. That means our food supply will not survive a Trump term. We do not want a neverending dust bowl.
Additionally of you really think Trump will do anything for peace you haven’t been listening to his words or looked at his actions.
I said Democrats should not support genocide. I did not say people should not vote for Biden. I did not say people should vote for Trump.
I said that Democrats should not be supporting genocide. Biden should stop and you should too.
Why I started with, “Yep”. Another word for yes.
Then don’t accuse me of being a trumpist because I don’t think that Democrats should be supporting genocide.
You think Trump, the guy who makes transparent threats of violence every other sentence, would stop Israel from levelling Gaza?
I think Democrats should stop supporting genocide. They should vote for Biden and not Trump.
Biden should stop supporting genocide, and pro-genocide centrists should stop assuming that opposition to genocide is support for Trump. Or at least scroll down and see if others haven’t spammed identical genocide apologia.
He’s good friends with and likely has donations from Netanyahu. And all Trump and the GOP have to do (as usual) is sit back and watch the left fight and destroy itself while the gop sit back and win.
Democrats are so damn stupid. Not a single one of your candidates and potential presidents is against Israel, none, so why make it an issue for this election?
Because I’m guessing the hope is that Biden will see the threats to not vote and change his tact in order to keep his job.
Talk about blowing off your own foot cause your toe hurts.
Russian propaganda.
Idiot
? The reason it’s being pushed is Russian propaganda.
Primaries are the place for protest votes. You want to send a message, send it now in the primary.
Come general election, it’s time to shut up and protect the country.
Not just a second Trump term, but a second Trump term and continuation/acceleration of the genocide in Gaza. Not voting and letting Trump win with a razor thin margin in a swing state will not fix the problem. Between the two realistic choices, Biden is infinitely more likely to push Israel for a ceasefire, which is the best chance anybody has to get the situation under control.
I don’t like our current system but I don’t believe she is wrong. We have a two party system. Either the GOP or the DNC candidate will take the electoral college.
I hate that we are still voting against something. The Democrats need to run a candidate that we WANT to vote for (like Obama was imo) but we aren’t there in this election so we can either protest and vote 3rd party, vote for Trump, or vote for Biden.
Not only that, but it effectively does nothing as Trump will support Israel as well.
It’s a primary…
What they’re hoping it will do is show the party and Biden that his actions don’t follow the value of Dem voters.
The goal is for him to shape up so he doesn’t depress turnout and let’s trump wins like when he ran against Hillary.
Ignoring the problem and letting the media keep calling Biden “most progressive president yet” will disenfranchise Dems and hurt turnout.
Dem voters aren’t Republican voters. Fear isn’t enough to motivate them, it works on conservatives because they’re statistically likely to have a larger amygdala. Liberals (actual liberals) are more likely to have increased frontal lobe activity that handles empathy and critical thinking.
The main problem is neoliberals are essentially conservatives. They may vote D, but they think like Rs. And without that critical thinking and empathy, they assume everyone else is like them. Like Republicans do.
The result is actual liberals look at both parties, and realize it’s not a good thing the same type of people are now running the only two options. Especially when the donations are coming from the same place.
AIPAC for example. They’re funding Biden and Republicans who say Trump won, while attacking Dem incumbents who are against genocide.
Because all AIPAC cares about us Israel. They dont give two shits about Biden or America.
And as we’ve seen with his decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem, his position is even more extreme. Everyone who has paid any attention to his position on such matter should be able to figure out what his response to the current conflict would be. He for sure wouldn’t even try to reign Netanyahu in but actively encourage further brutalities. That’s exactly the “strong man” bullshit Trump adores.
So even if you really dislike Biden’s handling of this whole shit show, you better believe that Trump would be even worse. And that’s just the foreign politics part of the Middle East, we all know what harm Trump wants to cause to the US itself.
Moving embassy to Jerusalem was bad because it basically spit in the face of Palestinians - but we are literally supplying bombs that are killing Palestinians right now.
One’s a spit in the face. The other is a 2,000lb warhead in the face.
Would Trump have done the same? Probably. But we know for a fact Biden did what he did.
Trump absolutely would support Israel AT LEAST as much as Biden does right now. I mean come on, Israel is killing lots of Muslims, that’s something Trump can always get behind.
I used the example of the embassy since it’s something previous administrations wouldn’t have done as they knew it would only unnecessary put oil into the fire. And Biden damn sure knows this as well. Trump, either didn’t care or didn’t listen.
if i were a muslim i would not vote for biden. i wouldn’t vote for trump either… but definitely not biden
again. we know with 100% certainty biden supports the genocide. even if trump is 95%, that’s still better odds
again. we know with 100% certainty biden supports the genocide. even if trump is 95%, that’s still better odds
Then you simply didn’t pay attention to Trumps attitude to Muslims in general and advocating war crimes without any impunity. Trump absolutely would be worse than Biden in this situation. He for example for sure wouldn’t have made Netanyahu drop the complete blockade of food and water. He would have cheered this cruelty on.
i don’t know what trump would have done. neither do you. the guy’s a bit of a wild card. for example look at russia he’s totally down to just drop the ukraine war. meanwhile biden supports prolonging it however long is necessary
i’m not defending trump i’m just saying if i were a muslim and especially if i were a Palestinian i would never vote for biden. it’s unforgivable. i support the muslims in michigan. if the democrats want votes, they need to push policies that the people actually want
they can’t just expect people to keep voting for them because of the eternal right-wing boogeyman. because it’s getting so bad people are actually starting to wonder if maybe the far-right proto fascist is better and that’s a piss poor state of affairs for a democracy to be in
i don’t know what trump would have done. neither do you. the guy’s a bit of a wild card. for example look at russia he’s totally down to just drop the ukraine war. meanwhile biden supports prolonging it however long is necessary
What are you talking about? Trump obviously wouldn’t support Ukraine. It’s really no secret that he’s in Russia’s pocket. His attitude towards Muslims also is something he’s very open about. Not to mention his love for strong-men wanna be dictators like Netanyahu is well known. To think that he would be better for Palestinians is ridiculous. So no, I’m absolutely certain that Trump would have handled this situation much worse and will handle it worse if he gets into office while it’s still raging.
they can’t just expect people to keep voting for them because of the eternal right-wing boogeyman. because it’s getting so bad people are actually starting to wonder if maybe the far-right proto fascist is better and that’s a piss poor state of affairs for a democracy to be in
Then these people are fucking stupid and don’t realise how much they have to loose living under fascism. Especially if their Muslims living in the US! The Israel Palestinian conflict is one thing, to loose democracy at home is something much worse.
It effectively proves to Democrats that if they support Genocide like Republicans they will never win.
If Democrats want to bend over backwards to appeal to a small minority of AIPAC voters, they will lose all their other voters.
Oh, it has nothing to do with AIPAC VOTERS. It’s ALL about AIPAC DONORS.
Big difference…
It’s both. Dems want to appeal to voters that are brainwashed by AIPAC.
There is also a Zionist minority in America that will only vote for a Zionist president and Dems are so afraid to lose them that they will throw away every single moral value they have to appeal to them.
But if the Dems aren’t shown that they will lose more voters by kneeling for AIPAC than they will gain, the Dems will not be incentivized to clean up their act. In fact Dems will only become more extreme in their Zionism because they know that people will keep voting for AIPAC anyways.
Biden still has a shot to win voters back by actually managing to get recognition for a Palestinian state implemented. But he’s just dancing around that subject as long as possible and it doesn’t look like he’s serious in any way.
There are more AIPAC dollars than there are AIPAC voters, but then I guess that’s always the inherent problem with our political system:
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S
The top three israeli money recipients being Democrats, and the top being Biden, is not a great argument to vote Democrat though.
If Biden tanks Israel where do you think that money is going to go?
Biden is the most willing to sell out to israel. Which is why Biden is getting that money. I must say that the Dems are very cheap too, they sell their souls for a few million dollars.
“If I don’t do it somebody else will” is the default excuse for any crime. This excuse only works if enough people keep believing in it.
“Let’s (literally) destroy democracy so we might be able to save the Democratic Party”.
Did you miss all the great speeches at CPAC?
Do you not understand what “primary” means?
A meaningless formality since 2012.
“Let’s literally commit Genocide so Biden doesn’t have to run another 4 years”.
Trumps rise to power is a direct consequence of the DNC sabotaging every attempt of real progressives like Bernie that could have actually fixed issues.
It creates both voter apathy and it enables right-wingers to point to the deteriorated standards of living under Biden and blame Biden for it (and biden pulls out another 15 Billion for israel) (cue someone linking me how people working 3 jobs is good for unemployment)
If Biden wins now the unrest and support for right-wing authoritarianism will only grow.
If Trump loses the election, that will not remove the threats and social changes that trigger the “action side” of authoritarianism.
The authoritarians will still be there. They will still look for candidates who will give them the strong, punitive leadership they desire.
If bad Dems keep winning the right will only grow stronger.
If Biden wins this time #Hitler2028 is a plausible reality as Biden is doing nothing to address any real problems and only gradually making things worse. Further bolstering Republicans.
The only way I see Biden winning this election is a) Trump has a stroke B) they throw Trump in jail
The polls are clear, people are growing increasingly tired of Biden. Trump was one of the most unpopular presidents in history - and Biden is even more unpopular.
We’re fucked either way, like you said. Biden wins and the unrest is delayed and will blow up even stronger later on. Put Trump in jail and that unrest will be amplified tenfold. Look what happened when Hitler got out of jail (or Lula in Brazil for a more recent example) If Bifen loses, we of course have our proto-fascist.
Honestly I admire Trump for both his ability to absolutely dominate the GOP, even when the big donors are directly against him and his perseverance and dedication to do literally anything in his power to win.
I don’t know how he still has such a fire inside him at his age.
Honestly I admire Trump for both his ability to absolutely dominate the GOP
He only beat Haley 60-40 in SC. Media talks about his big primary wins, but they’re not really showing a politician that has really consolidated his party, especially as a virtual incumbent. He’s probably the only Republican Biden could beat, and Biden is conversely the only Democrat Trump could beat. Yet on we march to a repeat general election between two candidates most people don’t like.
to be fair, that’s probably one of the worst performing states for him because it’s Haley’s home state
Look at what happened at the primary in Nevada. He was removed from the ballot so he told his supporters to not go out and vote. What happened? Over 60% voted “none of these candidates”
Nikki Haley lost to “none of these candidates”
if you look at the polls for the republican primary: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-r/2024/national/
trump is >75%
that’s domination, especially considering a) desantis got more funding AND was polling better at the start of the campaign season and b) nikki haley picked up that funding after desantis dropped out
the establishment republicans are desperate to get rid of trump but he’s like a tick that won’t go away
He wasn’t removed from the ballot, he chose to remove himself because the party rules said candidates had to do that to compete in the caucus that would actually choose electors. “None of the above” were just Trump votes, which falls in line with a candidate who should be doing better for his name recognition and history.
He can be solidly above 50%, assuring a primary win, and still not be demonstrating that he’s consolidated his party. He won his 2020 primaries with 94% of the vote.
Voting uncommitted is a fine thing to do during the primary. It shows the party that people are displeased with how the government is handling the Gaza situation.
Sitting out an election in Michigan is a bad idea. If you’re in a safe state, go wild. Just not Michigan.
I will vote for Biden in the General Election, but I will not stop speaking out about the Genocide in Palestine. We can put a stop to this, now. We don’t have to wait for the election, we don’t want to let Netanyahu handle this situation in the slightest.
You have to put pressure on Biden because it could make a difference. There would be no convincing Trump. Israel has utterly failed this challenge. Netanyahu has proven himself beyond any reasonable doubt to be a criminal.
and biden is best friends with netanyahu. if we cant convince biden before an election, then we will not be able to convince him after one. we need to ask him to resign and realistically threaten that they WILL lost this election. nothing else will light a fire under their ass like that. nothing.
This might be a viable solution if there were a dem candidate coming up the pike that had a chance against Trump.
But there isnt. Your election choices are Trump and not Trump. Regardless of what you think of the “not Trump” option, Trump would be exponentially worse. Voting 3rd party or not voting at all is the equivalent of a vote for Trump.
no its not and you know it. american election cycles are really good anxiety producers. we have two options, one will make everything worse, one will make it so the bad guys cant win. but the democrats don’t want change. they want to appease their donors, one of the biggest being AIPAC. don’t act like democrats are gonna save the day. I’d say they just drop the ball but its not as if they really wanted to get in the hoop. They throw the game and then blame us for not voting hard enough and being too apathetic
That’s the joy of continuing with democracy in the US. Biden and ‘the Left’ won’t attempt to curtail your speech or throw you in jail. The other guys… not so much.
biden is a zionist. he is definitely not part of the ‘the Left’. at no point in his career has he been a leftist. he is a centrist zionist.
And this is the only correct solution.
You see so many people in this thread essentially equating Trump and Biden because of Gaza, and they keep skirting around “you shouldn’t vote Biden because both sides are the same tee-hee.”
LOL
Real talk now. You will stop speaking about the so called so called “Genocide in Gaza” as soon as you’re distracted by memes making you upset about something else.
Yahya Sinwar will be dead soon enough, and there will be a ceasefire in exchange for the remaining hostages. In a few months there won’t be any more civilian casualties in your social media feeds and the memes will tell you that Dark Brandon made Israel accept the ceasefire. You will love the Dark Brandon because of the memes. A few weeks after that the memes and Tik Toks will be making you upset over Trump and you will have forgotten all about the Palestinians. Just like how you never cared about the Ethiopian civil war or any other conflict in the world unless the memes tell you you’re supposed to.
Netanyahu empowered this militant group to begin with, secured their funding for them. They’re targeting hospitals, border crossings, and refugee camps. It’s pretty clear that Israel’s goals aren’t to defeat Hamas, but to kill as many Palestinians as possible before the time runs out.
And Israels plan is to remove Palestines border with Egypt, so that it will now be completely encircled by Israel.
This is new to me. Do you have any sources?
Maybe vote uncommitted in primary for pressure since that has literally no effect on the main election?
Objectively correct take.
You can validly hate Biden for the handling of Gaza. But not voting for him is just helping the Fascists win.
Swallow your pride. Do your duty at the ballot and then make the real changes by organising and protests.
No. It’s not on the voters to show up no matter what. It’s on the politicians to be someone we want to vote for. We already did “vote blue no matter who and pressure them for change later.” And now we’re funding a genocide. That’s over. Now it’s pressure time.
Absolutely correct. “Vote blue no matter who” got us here. The idea failed.
More objectively correct take:
Thanks to the political-parties highjacking governing-the-country,
they can commit any crime or abomination, whatsoever, and you only can choose between them, because the rigged-system won’t permit anyone to have any alternative to what the incumbent political-parties offer.
There: fixed it for you.
You know 3rd parties run all the time right? We even have multiple senators right now that are independents
Okay, so then, do your duty, vote for biden, then work to support ranked choice voting?
Why do you think the neoliberals running the DNC will let ranked choice happen?
FPTP is the only reason neoliberals and Republicans can get elected, while they control both parties, we’ll never get rid of it.
To get ranked choice, progressives first have to replace neoliberals, and then win so many elections it doesn’t matter what Republicans want.
RCC isn’t the cure, it’s what we do after we win. Because it’s not going to happen until after we win.
For anyone confused or refuting this in their mind, look up the DNC’s history on ranked choice and the efforts they’ve used to stop it. The only effective legislation passed in a few states was done by citizens with outside state help.
Any reason it can’t be done by referendums brought forward by the voters. Just need so rich Hollywood types to put up money and support.
It’s complicated and I could go into details about every nuanced situation for a few hours. A few highlights,
There are 24 states that do not provide for statewide citizen-initiated ballot measures (link)
Alaska for some reason is my favorite example
Ballot Measure 2 supporters spent nearly $7 million and campaigned for a year and a half ahead of the election (outside state support). Brett Huber, campaign manager of the leading vote-no group, said his team “had a short amount of time and a lot less money, and we tried our best” (opponents to RCV). Ballot Measure 2 has received the support of 50.55% of Alaska’s voters (link)
So its slightly possible, with millions of dollars from outside state support, years to campaign, and catching the main political parties unaware of your movements.
Zionism can be equated to fascism. Biden has stated multiple times that he is a Zionist. Neo-liberal fascists are already in power and they are destroying the left. you are saying do your duty at the ballot by saying vote this way or you are wasting a vote (that doesn’t actually count anyway because the pop vote doesn’t decide the presidency). I will do my duty by not partaking in sham elections for a two party state that I don’t have any faith in whatsoever to deliver anything they promise. Because they have no obligation to fulfill anything they say they will do to get into office. That in itself is protest so I am doing the real changes, as you say.
They aren’t destroying the left, there just has never been a meaningful left in America.
Sure that’s why FDR never won in an absolute landslide.
It’s why none of the last successful Democrat presidency runs over the last 2+ decades have been based on progressive reform and no Democrat would run with a slogan like “Change we can believe in” with only one outlier being the most recent election based on a distinct aversion to fascism.
America has never created national parks, new deals for farmers, or held up a man who was against war during the Cold war.
Nah. Left just doesn’t exist.
national parks that still rob native peoples of their land? is that progressive to you? new deals for farmers, on stolen land? don’t act like america is anything to be proud of, even the leftest leaning presidents still upheld the empire.
Better than drilling on it. You can’t go back and undo history. It’s happened. It’s a shit take to just show it was someone else’s land. It always is. We are all living in someone else’s house and something else’s environment, so I’m and so forth.
Yes we can be better in the future and should aim for that but just screaming that it’s all crap is really derivative of every history of everything.
Its a shit response to say that everybody has had land stolen. Especially when those peoples are still alive. So if we are to be better, then we need to acknowledge that there is still justice undone. And again these native peoples are still here, they aren’t gone. Native Hawaiians are actively being poisoned due to the US military’s ignorance and neglect of their own infrastructure. Democrats aren’t talking about that are they? Hawaii was illegally annexed but I’m sure Democrats vacation there just as much as Republicans. They are still fighting for rights to their land and anyone in Congress or the White House would say they can go fuck themselves.
Yes I’m actually fully in agreement that native Hawaiians are being pushed into extinction but that’s part of the now that needs to be fixed. Actions have to be taken for the current issues and there may and very usually is history to navigate within because it does matter but you can’t just ask for history to change we need to figure out solutions for now.
And yeah rich people of all parties aren’t going to be particularly interested and it’s obvious our government doesn’t work right. Your original point that national parks aren’t progressive is bad because even though stolen they are protected wild lands for hundreds of years. The new deal was a huge help to failing farms that are literally needed to feed people. We are facing inequality of massive magnitudes and climate change that is going to cause farming issues of the future, and climate refugees and economic refugees. We have to work with that now, looking at what the future we see from our choices with enough remembrance of the past but not clinging to it.
Unless you just want to be angry.
Edit: also my point is that eventually no matter what someone else will take your land whether they are your progeny or your replacement. It’s never your land or your stuff. It’s just temporary.
As if this isn’t happening across the globe. American politics is not the only domain infested with the neolibs
You’ll just be forfeiting your vote. The same reasoning can be heard in any country come election time, but in truth you’re only making a gesture and its effects are contained in your mind. If you don’t vote, even though all you said is true, this election system is a sham, etc. you’re still helping Trump in the short term and the harm he will do to women, foreigners, anybody who’s not rich, and the american society at large. Gestures, symbols and statements are good, but not at this price. I live across the world but if I could vote in the american elections, I would, and I’m not even part of any of these endangered demographics. I suppose you aren’t either ?
I am an intersection of multiple demographics you mentioned and if you were any of them, you would know that biden and the democratic party has not done anything meaningful for any of them. Roe could’ve been codified, but he didn’t. biden could’ve expand the court and add new justices, but he didn’t. biden could’ve already secured a cease fire, but he hasn’t. biden spat on the rail workers asking for one week sick pay. said nope, fuck you. he also has done practically nothing about amazons union busting. biden didn’t give a shit about east palestine. flint michigan still doesn’t have clean water. he could be creating legislation to protect trans kids and adults, but doesn’t care. so what exactly is your argument about the oppressed demographics having better lives under democrats?
And furthermore, it is not just a gesture. Or at least its as much of a gesture as voting. Its effects are demonstrably not just “contained in my mind” because it is having an obvious effect on you and judging by the 16 upvotes on the comment, perhaps I have inspired or emboldened people to be just as critical as I am being. But you will say we are stupid or foolish or whatever you need to say. I say the fool is the one that continues to perform the same behaviour with no results and then tries to convince people to not do anything different. Look how worried they are of losing their power that they have to tell people that if you don’t vote for us, its back to the trump. what a lovely threat from the people that supposedly care about us more than trump. i know they don’t, i know trump doesn’t care. they don’t answer to us and you know it.
As an outsider looking in, it feels really odd that this could even be a firm issue for any voter. Like that high horse sailed so long ago, how can you possibly blame the current president for what has been a national policy for 75 years?
Sure, push for a candidate that doesn’t support Israel and dissent as much as you can. But every time I read a comment about “Genocide Joe” it screams Russian propaganda farm.
I feel like this is just another division tactic to split the vote to favor Republicans.
I have friends who were rabidly for Democrats and their agenda for decades, decrying single issue conservative voters, now acting the same way toward Biden over Gaza as if he single handedly orchestrated this and didn’t inherit years of foreign policy.
I fucking hate what’s happening there and don’t want to support it in any way, but my vote doesn’t change what’s already established and the alternative is so much worse.
I keep asking for a viable alternative and all I get is vote third party or stay home which solves exactly nothing.
The viable alternative is you continue voting Democrat but you write all your congresspeople and tell them that they need to stop supporting Israel.
At the end of the day, though, if they know this “party loyalty even when I abhor the party’s behavior” sentiment exists then they’ll have less reason to listen to you.
But even if you aren’t playing hardball with them, you can tell them what you think and feel. Humans are swayed by social proof, and if they get enough letters encouraging them to stop supporting the thing, it will sway them.
Assuming they’re human. If they’re not, the only thing they’ll respect is your leverage over them and if you aren’t willing to swing your vote then that’s gone.
But I think most of them are human. Probably not more than a small fraction are psychopaths.
LOL your representatives know that there is no way you break through all the noise loud enough to actually affect their election and will be well funded enough to run their ads enough to get elected no matter what by voter apathy and confusion.
If you had the influence already you wouldn’t be sending an email.
I have sent so many and called so many rep lines and at best you get an aid who apologizes and you know they will be ignored too.write all your congresspeople and tell them that they need to stop supporting Israel.
That’s a bad idea. If the US stops supporting Israel, Hamas and their financial backers will immediately invade to wipe them off the planet. I don’t know if the rhetoric I hear is mostly Russian propaganda, or people don’t really understand the conflict. Israel didn’t just decide to invade Gaza, there was an 9/11-esk terrorist attack by Hamas that triggered his retaliation. Despite being the defacto governors of Gaza, Hamas is a terrorist organization and operates like one. There is no attacking Hamas without attacking Gaza. They are essentially one in the same, and there is no peaceful solution when Hamas goal is to wipe Israel off the planet. It would be a kin to the US not going after Osama Bin Laden after 9/11. Do you think he would have stopped? I don’t think I’ve heard anyone seriously suggest the US should have done nothing after 9/11. Going into Afghanistan was pretty well supported (Ignoring Iraq, because that’s where the Bush Admin fucked it up). The only solution to 9/11 was a time machine going back and not getting involved in the Middle East in the first place, but now where talking a reverse butterfly effect of who knows what happens. The Israel-Hamas conflict is older than Hamas, and it quite literally one of, if not the most complex Geo-political issues in history.
Personally I think the best Idea would be the pressure Israel into larger oversight by the UN, or whomever. I don’t see any true peace while Hamas or any other Islamist extremist organization exists in that region. The time for that was twenty plus years ago.
I have a better idea, US soldiers are employed within Israel border to cut the settlers off from having resources until they surrender and turn themselves into Palestine with support on placing them on trial, along with searching former and current soldiers that supports the settlers. I don’t think I can trust Israel to give up on supporting their settlers. And then, force a 2-state solution via bargaining peace, any trouble, they lose territory and soldiers. That way, Israel ends up being forced to stop supporting settlers and Palestine stop making trouble.
There may not be a peaceful solution, but the correct violent solution would be for Israel to stop the weapons blockade on Gaza, so that non-Hamas Gazans can arm themselves, and so they have a chance to overthrow Hamas on their own.
Hamas rules without elections, hence do not have the consent of those governed.
The weapons embargo is failing, obviously. As gun control opponents in the USA often point out, gun laws basically ensure the rule followers are disarmed; it doesn’t do much to disarm the criminals.
All this weapons blockade is doing is making Gazans helpless.
And because they are helpless, they are not responsible for Hamas.
I’m NOT trying to say here that arming average Gazans would make it okay to carpet bomb Gaza, but it would at least open the door for Gazans to take a side.
If I were running Israel, my policy would be:
- Stop enforcing the naval blockade
- Possibly even push weapons into Gaza
- Make it known that from here on out, the people will be held responsible for Hamas actions
- Give them five years to either overthrow Hamas or take responsibility for Hamas’s actions
- Then if necessary, treat Gazan civilians as if they’re one and the same with Hamas
With the Gazan people being actively prevented from arming themselves by the Israeli military, there is no way in hell that Gazans could ever be responsible for Hamas. They are in a state of helpless victimhood that is continually enforced by the actions of Israel.
Stop the weapons blockade. It is a violation of human rights. I mean naturally the food and medicine blockades are fucked too. But keeping the Gazan population unarmed is also a serious violation of their rights, and it makes Israel’s current actions immoral.
I don’t believe adding more guns solves any problem, so that’s a non starter for me.
However just today, Palestinian prime minister submitted the government’s resignation, so we will see what’s next.
This kind of comment is why I’m on Lemmy. I abhor the policy of the US to support Israel without question, and feel that Biden has let the world down by not calling out the crimes being committed now. But I hadn’t considered how this might be used by Republican supporters to divide Democratic support. It sure makes sense. Thanks for posting this viewpoint.
I keep asking for a viable alternative and all I get is vote third party or stay home which solves exactly nothing.
That’s wrong too. Voting for Biden keeps it the same. Voting third party or staying home makes it worse. Making it better isn’t on the ballot.
I keep asking for a viable alternative and all I get is vote third party or stay home which solves exactly nothing.
Have you ever asked the Democratic party why they don’t put other candidates up for us to vote for? Especially with so much doubt for Biden going on right now?
Votes are not owed, they are given.
This right here. It “conveniently” gets forgotten about during every conversation regarding Biden’s stance on Israel. Ask Trump what he thinks of Israel, ask Obama, Clinton, Bush, Carter, Reagan’s ghost, Nixon’s ghost, Ford’s ghost. They’ve literally all been pro-Israel since 1948.
Now is worse than any time in my adult life. Maybe the original displacement of Palestinians in 1948 is worse, but the US wasn’t a close ally then and there’s no reason a current day voter would have to think that the decisions of past voters were somehow constraining on their current beliefs.
Gonna cut her some slack since the last time trump was president his sycophants almost kidnapped and executed her.
Voting for Biden cause he’s least worst fucking sucks. Dems need to do better, and Trump is what happens because they won’t.
Trying to get a progressive agenda by only thinking about the Presidency is like trying to win a game with only hail Marys. We need to focus on smaller races in house and build up from there. It would be a stronger and longer lasting change. Even if you’re in an area that doesn’t have any competitive progressives running in the primary, you are allowed to volunteer to help progressive candidates in areas that do.
