As a lifelong democrat, I find this to be very dangerous rhetoric. It sounds tonedeaf. Regardless of the candidate, being critical of politicians is a cornerstone of democracy.
I understand it’s important to be a united front, but the need to seemingly bring dissenting voices into line is not a good way to do it. We cannot force people to say we have a perfect candidate for the sake of avoiding discussion.
Edit: a word
We cannot force people to say we have a perfect candidate for the sake of avoiding discussion.
They seem to believe if something isn’t discussed, the other side won’t notice and / or discuss it either. That’s delusional.
I don’t think we have enough nuance in our politics to have that as more than an idyllic dream.
I disagree that’s what’s happening here. He’s saying that you can be disappointed with Biden all you want, but not voting for him means we get trump and Project 2025 and fascism.
I don’t know a single person that is stoked on Biden, but he’s all we have right now. And we cannot let Trump get a second term.
Unfortunately, that’s not what Fetterman is saying.
Fetterman noted during an interview an uptick in Democrats who have become more critical of Biden lately, and said it’s only helping former President Trump.
“I don’t understand why,” Fetterman said, speaking on “Morning Joe” on MSNBC. “I don’t know what’s in it for you to do that whether you’re just chasing clout or you want to make it in the news or anything like that. But if you’re not willing to just support the president now and say these kinds of things, you might as well just get your MAGA hat, because you now are helping Trump with this.”
He’s addressing other Democratic politicians, whom would probably be one of the last groups to not vote for Biden. He seems to think that Biden would fare better in November if Dems outright refuse to acknowledge the realities of unprecedented homelessness, Israeli war money, or being 81 years old. (Because forcing people to look to Republicans for a dissenting opinion on these subjects is a great idea.)
You should vote for Biden if you don’t want Trump, obviously. And vote for Fetterman over whomever if you don’t want whomever. But either Fetterman severely misspoke here, or his opinion goes way beyond that, and I can’t help but lose a lot of respect I had for him.
deleted by creator
This is buying into the Republican way of thinking, which is that you criticize someone’s performance for any shortcoming you feel. A progressive stance is to elevate other people (There is more than one person in Government) who are doing things correctly without tearing down the current leader. It s the difference between a collaborative government and a competitive one. Within a (generally speaking) unified political block which values diversity of opinions, a collaborative approach is much more productive than a competitive one.
The strength of a movement is in the sum of the effort.
Oh, I totally agree everyone needs to vote for Biden based on how the system currently works. But what I disagree with is the insinuation that anyone disagreeing with Biden needs a MAGA hat. That’s tonedeaf and bad for the party.
It’s pretty much the party’s only message anymore. Just shut up and be happy with the genocide that party leadership has decided that you must love.
That has been proven time and again to not work. You can’t take the high road and expect to win.
Win what? Ultimately no one wins if we can’t discuss areas for improvement even within one’s own party.
Elections.
Right, but winning an election where your own party already required you to shut up about anything where you disagree – doesn’t seem like a win?
I think there’s this idea that if we keep the Dems in power, then we’ll hit a point where we can return to discussion and fix issues within the party. But that’s a false idea. There will always be an opponent, and the idea that we should all fall in line just to avoid fascism is, well, misguided at best – because it’s also fascism. We’re already setting a precedent within the party to avoid dissidence. That’s wild.
deleted by creator
With first past the post voting, a “win” is very simply avoiding the biggest loss.
Push and scream and lobby as much as you like, but at the end of the day, Biden only needs to be marginally less psychotic than Trump for him to be the preferred candidate.
The other side will fall in line behind Trump. So what choice is there?
Try criticizing Biden openly here or on Reddit. This is the party sentiment right now, open criticism is viewed as being equal to supporting Trump. It’s nutty.
I don’t think that’s true, there’s plenty of disagreement over Biden policies. It’s when people try to play the both sides card, lumping Biden and Trump as both being senile or blaming the situation in Palestine on Biden that gets people riled up especially when people try to use those arguments to convince people to not vote.
Yeah, that’s one of my fears with this rhetoric. We keep reducing issues to bifurcations which is incredibly dangerous.
It’s news when the democrats say there’s no appropriate time to critique democrats
It should be news when someone calls himself progressive for years and as soon as he gets to congress he starts ranting about how much it pisses him off everyone thinks he’s progressive.
Asshole pulled a Sinema and the most annoying part is everyone defending him because he wears a hoodie.
I hope it’s more due to the fact that he had a stroke rather than he’s doing it intentionally. Either way he has had a complete shift in personality and its disappointing to no end that he’s not who he was when elected.
I’m not worried about Biden’s age mostly because I think this comes from the racist fear that Kamala Harris isn’t capable of running this country.
I think we’re worried about biden’s age less because we’re worried he’ll die in office and more because we’re worried he won’t and will keep running the country as his mind deteriorates beyond the point he should be running a bingo game.
Honestly, I would not at all be shocked if Biden resigns the day after inauguration and Harris takes over. I’ve seen several recent articles that seem to indicate she’s WAY more in tune with the concerns of the (sane portion of the) electorate, and is actively trying to step up in many areas where Biden and his campaign are dropping the ball. We’ll see what happens, I guess.
And then she’ll be the incumbent we can’t primary in '28.
Yeah, I’ve known a couple family members who had a stroke and became better people.
Sometimes it works the other way.
Personality changes arent a rare after effect, it’s pretty common.
Either way he has had a complete shift in personality and its disappointing to no end that he’s not who he was when elected.
Gabbard didn’t have a shift, she was always shitty and people just didn’t notice. Her whole political background is socially conservative politics and she increased her profile during Obama’s term attacking him from the right on Fox News. Some people got infatuated by her quitting the DNC for Bernie, but that wasn’t because she was a progressive.
Gabbard didn’t have a shift, she was always shitty and people just didn’t notice.
She’s not the only one:
How an Anti-Sexist Candidate Got Smeared as Sexist
Elizabeth Warren’s Biggest Donor Is Revealed To Have Also Funded A Major Trump Ally
he’d been saying for a while he’s NOT progressive
That began conveniently after his election.
idk. he’s always been big on fracking, and everyone remembers the jogger with a suspicious look. i don’t identify as progressive, either, so it’s not an identity i look for in anyone else, but he insists that he never told people he was progressive.
Just like the GOP when it comes time to talk about firearm reforms or another shooting
there’s no appropriate time
Biden’s been in office for more than 3 years. But all the complaints get drummed out during election season. I wonder who’s pushing them…
You’ve had your head in the sand if you haven’t been hearing people complain about Biden for nearly 4 years.
I have. But it seems to have been ramping up lately. And criticisms of things in the past now are not being done for anything but to tank the election.
Dude, it’s primary season now. It’s precisely the time when you should be criticizing someone.
You aren’t going to primary an incumbent. Get over it.
That is not at all what the argument was. You said now’s not the time. Now is literally the time.
There’s never a time.
It’s a shame the genocide had to ramp up for election season, huh? Oh well, it’s not the people that are criticizing the genocide enablers fault. That is 100% the fault of all the elected officials enabling it.
I bet trump will totally fix it. /s
Democrats should not be supporting genocide.
You should stop. So should Biden.
The election industry is massive in the USA. The media is not really indicative of the conversations of the citizens, but they do know how to start reflecting these things when it’s time to sell it.
I mean, I’m still voting for Biden over any of the Nazis on the red team, but the whole funding-a-genocide-on-gaza thing is going to make it a pretty unenthused vote.
I really wish I could vote for someone on a basis other than lesser evil.
I really wish I could vote for someone on a basis other than lesser evil.
Down-ballot exists! That’s where I’m most enthusiastic about voting. There might be some places where it’s just lesser evil option in some down-ballots, unfortunately, but you’re more likely to have a representative that represents voters within the down-ballot which makes lesser evil choice less likely.
Down-ballot exists!
And has the added benefit of a vastly lower vote count so your vote matters much more. The general election for my state rep got like 4,000 votes. And it was a blowout as expected, so really it was decided in the primary where there were a little over 2,000. One of the other races was literally decided by a single vote!
Exactly. The game sucks, but it exists and one must play to win. The other team has been remarkably successful at working every lever to their advantage for half a century now.
It would be nice if our team wasn’t treating the “game” as a friendly co-op match.
During a vs match lmao
I got to vote for Bernie Sanders twice. That was the only time I’ve voted for a politician I fully support, as opposed to voting for not-the-republican.
deleted by creator
If valid criticism of a candidate causes someone to decide not to vote for them, then so be it. That’s how democracy is supposed to work. What’s important is that people vote for who they want to lead them, period.
America isn’t really a democracy though. You can’t apply idyllic democratic principles to an oligarchy with FPTP.
Funny how demanding unquestioned loyalty is a MAGA cultist quality.
Fetterman noted during an interview an uptick in Democrats who have become more critical of Biden lately, and said it’s only helping former President Trump.
If it were closer to the election, I would definitely agree, and maybe it is too close now, although I don’t think so… if it is not too close, then Biden should be criticized by Democrats who have their ear to the ground to move him towards supporting more popular policies.
‘Get your MAGA hat’
He’s got it backward and needs to look in the mirror.
i.e.,
There are people who defend Trump, no matter what.
and
There are people who defend Biden, no matter what.
Sure, but we also have to realize that we live in a country with a two-party system and a winner-take-all electoral college. If you’re not helping your candidate, you’re helping the opponent.
we live in a country with a two-party system
Although they’re perpetually marginalized, we do have third-party candidates.
Edit: Amusing how people downvote a neutral, factual statement.
They’ll never have a chance in a winner-take-all electoral college system.
You’ll never convince 160 million people to vote 3rd party. So a vote for 3rd party is a vote for the most popular of the 2 candidates.
No, a vote 3rd party is a vote against your most tolerable of the two viable candidates.
a vote for any candidate is a vote against all other candidates.
The key here is that it’s a vote for the most popular of the 2 candidates based on the votes of who bothered to vote for them specifically, then further butchered via the EC. It’s a smaller, different pool of people that may elect someone that the actual majority prefer less, because part of the actual majority decided to play a different game entirely.
There’s always some excuse for progressives to shut up.
Listen, Coach Fetterman: We love your size and bombastic past but “if you aren’t for us you are against us” is not the type of faux populism that is needed in 2024.
Yes it is. Don’t want to vote for Biden because you’re not so happy with him? How about Trump? Would you rather Trump?
Here we are again in a forced choice, as if democracy exists in the US. But it’s Biden or fascism.
You’re not going to make that outcome more likely by berating people.
We’re past the point of coddling people into seeing that Trump = bad. Lives will literally be at stake. We all need some sobering perspective about the reality of a 2nd Trump administration.
Let me be more clear: Berating people is not just ineffective, but sabotages the outreach done by people who are actually focused on winning. No one actually working on voter outreach or political persuasion wants you doing that.
Calling out Trump’s ills is fine and good, but berating people to vote doesn’t work, it’s just something to make yourself feel good. If that’s actually all you’re trying to accomplish, fine, message boards can be stress relief and entertainment, but don’t fool yourself into thinking you’re working to avert a Trump return.
He’s not entirely wrong. I’ve been critical of Biden myself, but it is because I am concerned about Biden’s ability to beat Trump. I want Biden to be a stronger candidate, and a stronger leader for that matter. Criticizing Biden is the best way I know to make him to better than he’s doing now. Poking holes in candidates is my love language.
But I’m a nobody. I don’t make headlines when I point out his flaws. Maybe somebody somewhere will read something I wrote, or at a minimum it becomes part of the rising din of concern, and Biden is forced to make an effort to speak to my concerns. That’s the best I can hope for.
I’m not backing an alternative candidate. I’m not calling for him to step aside or resign. I’m not suggesting we all throw our votes away on some long shot third party candidate. Anybody who is doing those things is helping Trump. And it’s hard not to think that they don’t know they are helping Trump, which makes it hard not to think that their intent is to help Trump.
So while I think Fetterman ought to be more specific with his criticism of critics, I don’t disagree that there are people who fit his accusation. I also think there are far more reasonable progressives and moderates who have voiced legitimate concerns that Biden should do well to hear. Hillary ignored many of those same criticisms, to the peril of all Americans. America would be a much better place if Democrats tried harder to be more than just the lesser bad option. “At least we’re not traitorous rapists” isn’t a campaign slogan that inspires confidence.
It’s a primary. Vote for whoever you want.
Always vote for whoever you want. That’s how voting works.
But know what you’re voting for. Know who you’re voting for. Our electoral system is inherently flawed.
Voting for some schmuck running against Biden in the primary might make you feel good about protesting one or more of Biden’s policies. His support of Israel, his approach to border policies, his inaction on any number of progressive issues, whatever the objection, who else are you going to vote for? I know there is the pro-Palestine contingent in Michigan promoting a “none of the above” campaign, which is effective at registering your complaint.
But in the general election, it’s time to put away such petty animus and defeat the orange monster that will destroy everything.
I chose “none,” since I’ll be stuck voting for Joe in November anyway.
The “I’m a progressive until I’m voted into office” guy?! Nah fuck him
Is this the the guy that chases innocent black men around with a shotgun or is that someone else.
Fuck you, Fetterman.
What a fucking disappointment this guy is turning out to be compared to all the love he got on his campaign. Not that I’d prefer Oz by any means, but it’s still pretty crushing.
I’m increasingly sure that the rising tide of never-Biden-ers is going to send Trump back into the White House. People need to be pragmatic and strategic about their voting and encourage others to do the same. So I understand WHY he felt a need to say stupid shit like this.
But if you’re not allowed to criticize Biden without being banished to Siberia, then he’s actually insufficiently different from Trump.
I’d bet Biden would not agree with Fetterman’s message. He’s not a whiny little thin-skinned gremlin the way Trump is. Based on his political career, he can even update platforms and change policy based on that feedback. So yeah, lay down the criticism to him re: Israel, he deserves it, and enough voices might actually change the foreign policy here. Do not tell the critics their votes aren’t welcome. Their votes are still needed. And hopefully they’re smart enough to know that NOT voting for Biden will create even worse outcomes, even while they continue clearly and loudly speaking up.
I’ve said this before and got downvoted but I’ll say it again. I will not tell a Muslim person or a Palestinian that they should hold their nose and vote for Biden. If the guy in charge is actively supporting a genocide and is providing the weapons that are killing your family, friend’s family, or just someone with your same religious beliefs, I don’t think we have the right to tell them they are wrong to abstain from voting for the pro genocide of their people guy. If a president was actively supporting the Nazis in killing my people, I would not have voted for that president.
It is the candidates responsibility to listen to his constituents. Not be finger wagged into voting them.
I agree that we shouldn’t shame someone in that situation.
But the counterfactual still exists – if Biden loses, that means Trump wins. And under Trump, things will be far worse. If we’re calling Biden genocidal for taking a cynical and cowardly approach to the conflict, then I am not even sure what word can possibly be extreme enough to describe the guy who actively wants all Muslims and Arabs dead.
I fundamentally disagree with the view that your vote is some signal of deep personal convictions. Voting should always be strategic. The more strategic, the better. That’s also why how you vote in the presidential election as a resident of California can be VERY different from how you vote as a resident of Georgia. I’d love to see a significant number of people in places like New York and Colorado voting third party in protest – because it’s not going to be enough to influence outcomes in that race, but may have a real and positive effect on future politics.
I just want everyone to think very, very carefully about what the counterfactuals are. In all things.
I am someone who will likely end up voting for Biden. But when Rashida Talib says vote uncommitted, or Bassem Yousef says the same, or Andy Levin in Michigan saying that he understands why. All I can say in response to that is I get it. I wouldn’t dream of trying to talk them out of it. What I’ve seen people on lemmy and in general liberals do, is callously talk about people like them as if they are too dumb to understand what it is that they’re saying. I would argue that they’ve thought about the counterfactuals and completely understand the impact of a trump presidency. They can’t support the guy actively causing their people harm. Again. If I was caught between the nazi guy and the guy supporting Nazis overseas, I’d likely not vote for either.
If I was caught between the nazi guy and the guy supporting Nazis overseas, I’d likely not vote for either.
Totally understandable. But in our voting system, you’re effectively supporting the Nazi Guy. You are lowering the amount of votes he needs to win. People can do whatever they want, but they don’t get to act like they aren’t participating when they absolutely are. Not voting ≠ not participating.
If someone understands the counterfactuals and implications of a Trump presidency and chooses to “sit out” they should absolutely be classified as supporting Trump. That’s what they’re doing. We need to be strategic just as much as Biden needs to be a better candidate and step his shit up.
Nope. This is Biden choosing to tank his presidency. This is not on the voters who are telling him what they need from him. 80% of democrats want a ceasefire. Biden is effectively setting up a Trump presidency all on his own.
Fine, let’s say Biden is intentionally tanking his presidency. Let’s say he’s actually super buds with Bibi and fully supports what Israel is doing.
Even supposing that, he’s still not only a better option than trump on this specific issue, but an entire slew of issues.
The only way this argument is even viable is assuming that DONALD TRUMP being in power would result in less dead Palestinians. That’s absurd and I think everyone knows that.
Primary, do what you want. Send a message. The general, pick the option that results in less death in Gaza. It’s gonna be Biden or Trump who wins, there is no “nobody wins” scenario on the table.
Exactly right. A vote is a chess move, not a manifesto.
Almost no real voters view voting as a chess move. Emotion matters. People can yell at what are essentially political junkies all they want on this message board, but it’s not going to influence all those marginal voters with other stuff going on, and they’re at risk if there are big emotional issues going on (like a genocidal war). You don’t solve that problem by talking about greater evils and strategic voting.
Almost all voters strategically choose to vote for a candidate they don’t actually like.
Tbf there is no US president that would have acted differently on Gaza. The alternative is to abandon an ally. Yes, that choice is morally superior, but strategically a disaster.
Doesn’t change what I said. Also, I would wager that after this conflict future democratic presidents will be very different on their rhetoric with Israel. We’re just stuck with the decrepit windbag that was born before Israel was established.
Also, I would wager that after this conflict future democratic presidents will be very different on their rhetoric with Israel.
I would too. They’ll be supporting genocide even more overtly next time. Democrats only move to the right.
Hell man, Biden is already very different on his rhetoric with Gaza, and the language coming out of his administration is clearly evolving. I would be unsurprised to see some direct condemnations in the coming months.
I WILL, however, be surprised to see the US severing its defense agreements with Israel. There’s too much seen as at-stake in the region. Hence my prior phrasing – it’s cynical and cowardly.
And it’s hardly like Israel is the only unpalatable regime we formalize and prop up to serve what are estimated to be greater foreign police interests.
Hell man, Biden is already very different on his rhetoric with Gaza, and the language coming out of his administration is clearly evolving.
“Cut it out, guys. Here’s more money and weapons to cut it out with.”
“That’s the way we’ve always done it” is a shitty excuse for supporting genocide.
I can think of a past presidential candidate willing to bern that bridge.
Basically no political operatives would agree with his message. You’re not positively influencing voters by yelling at them and doing it as a representative of the party paints it in a negative light. We liked candidate Fetterman because he was an outsider, but this seems like the consequences of not really understanding what’s effective vs. what’s emotionally satisfying.
I’m still on the fence about whether I can stomach knowing that I voted for the genocidal monster that can barely remember his name because he’s better than the fascist genocidal monster that wants to end whatever semblance of democracy we might have. This country is just the worst.
WOULD YOU RATHER eat a chocolate bar off a public toilet seats lid.
OR WOULD YOU RATHER Eat a chocolate bar out of a public toilet bowl.
Lol wtf you can literally choose neither??
But he’s the lesser of two evils! Doesn’t that get you motivated to get to the polls on November? Lesser!
It really should.
And yet, it doesn’t. It’s incredibly easy to not choose either, believe it or not.
It could be worse. We could have a dictator that regulates literally everything we do. My porn is anonymous for now.
It’s unfortunately nothing new, but I do think the alternative is a new level of bad.
Literally every single US president since 1948 has assisted Israel in committing genocide against Palestinians. Don’t clutch your pearls now.
“That’s the way we’ve always done it” - people who like the way we’ve always done it.
Genocide must stop.
You’d prefer to have voted for Trump?
These kinds of comments are getting obvious. You’re string here bitching about Biden, when we can all agree the alternative would be worse.
Go peddle your bullshit elsewhere.
Sen. John Fetterman (D-Pa.) panned Democrats who are upping their criticisms of President Biden ahead of the November election, saying they might as well don a “MAGA hat.”
Fetterman noted during an interview an uptick in Democrats who have become more critical of Biden lately, and said it’s only helping former President Trump.
Democracy! No longer allowed to question or criticize our politicians.
That’s a dishonest way to look at what he said. An honest one would be that he has just as much right to criticize Democrats offering aid to Trump as the Democrats offering aid to Trump have a right to criticize Biden.
Biden: [Does things]
Anti-Biden Democrats: [He shouldn’t be doing that.]
Fetterman: [They shouldn’t be doing that.]
You: [Fetterman is anti-democracy and pro-censorship.]This is just pure clownishness.
Context is key, and you’ve broken down the situation to the point of absurdity.
I mean, what’s his point we should never bitch about it when Biden does shit we don’t like? I have a novel idea, maybe he should start focusing on public approval instead of you demanding that the public blindly approve of everything he does.
Yeah, I’m going to vote for him because the alternative is a bad fucking idea.
His criticism isn’t out of left field He’s earned this shit. It’s not that he’s an irredeemable president, but a significant amount of his campaign is not being Trump. And still we hope all the hell that that’s enough.
This guy turned heel pretty quickly.
