Why do you think some of the most advertised things are… predatory loans and gambling.
Honestly for me the worse of it is, basically on linkedin and similar, people pretending to be recruiters, opening with a fake job posting and asking for your resume, then to follow it up with "Hey you know I don’t think this resume is going to get by, can I put you in contact with my resume company, they will sharpen up your resume for $300. Umm… so yeah, don’t know if you guessed this, but I have no clue when my next paycheck is coming in, this isn’t the time to ask me to drop a large amount of money on something that may not do anything.
ugh yeah. the gambling. I mean that one is straight out like. play our game and you will make millions guaranteed. I mean with that voice saying the bank account balance thing. this should be crazy illegal. Im a big victimless crimes person but I have to say I would like advertising for adult things to be limited to adult venues. I don’t think they should allow gambling sites to even be listed in app stores or be indexed by search engines but like if your at a bar or strip club they could have a poster with a QR code.
“Victimless crime” has always been kind of a grey term anyway. There are two sides to the types of things that refers to.
Doing drugs? Being a prostitute? Gambling your money away? Victimless crimes.
Manufacturing drugs? Being a pimp? Running a casino? I’m not so sure.
vicitmless crimes are about the individual. So yeah someone prostituting themselves and someone taking them up on it no prob. Running a brothel or being a pimp is sorta different. All the same Im fine with bussinesses that support the same as long as highly regulated. So at the individual level I want light regulation mainly for safety but going up to business I want a lot of regulation not only for safety on all levels but to prevent abuse and it should be taxed more than regular businesses.
Here in Australia, if two sex workers move in together and practice out of their homes, that’s legally a brothel and they’re criminals. And there are lots of legitimate reasons to do that. Safety in numbers, the fact that a fellow sex worker isn’t going to judge you, three-ways. But it’s illegal. And ridiculous laws like that are why a lot of sex workers in this country want full decrim.
Yeah seems strange to me it would legally be a brothel. As long as they kept their money seperate it should just be two individuals. I mean if two people where in the trade and lived in different apartments in the same building would it still be considered a brothel?
“Shoplifting is a victimless crime. Like punching someone in the dark.”
And nowdays you just know their $300 “service” is going to be “run it through an LLM.”
There’s zero ads for loans and gambling where I am since it’s illegal. So that’s not relevant everywhere.
It’s also demographic based. I get ads for hormones to fix the perimenopause, weed gummies and comfy pants.
It’s not about buying, it’s about staying in your head, even if you don’t remember it explicitly.
This kinda boring, menial, repetitive propaganda doesn’t try to make you buy something straight away, it’s to make you numb to it, to know it, to receive it without thinking, so then it tries to affect you. It tries to turn nothing into anything resembling truth, it turns advertisement and news, into an endless cycle of boring things that get hammered by the “a lie told 1000 times turns into truth” line.
It doesn’t affect you when you’re watching it, it affects you when you see or do anything relating to it.
When you need to buy new tires, you know what to buy, you don’t buy based on technical sheets, you buy it knowing it, even not explicitly.
(A take from Adorno and Horkheimers “Dialectic of Enlightenment”, the part where they talk about the media, culture, art, etc)
Exactly this, its the main reason people around this corner of the internet push ad-blocking software so much. Its a slow toxin that warps your subjective processing.
Everyone is vulnerable to it, those that claim otherwise are deluded, and the only way to be free of it is to cut advertisment from your life in as many places as possible.
And to add to that, it worsens mental health issues - at least for me it does. The subconscious “you are not good enough” doesn’t do anything good for anyone.
I do not do ad-supported, ever - they are aggravating, i start grinding my teeth and would rather listen to a construction site than to ads.
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I believe i heard of a case where there was a children’s song used as a torture method somewhere in the us, which might be a similar experience…
Found it, it was Baby Shark and in Oklahoma: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/05/oklahoma-county-jail-baby-shark-torture-tactics-lawsuit
Fifteen million merits
May I introduce you to neurodiversity.
You say everyone is vulnerable to it, I’d like to change your view into: everyone is affected by it.
I am not saying I am deluded or immune but it affects me in quite opposite ways. You see, autists are known to be quite stubborn (in general or places). So there’s this behavior that the more you push the more distance and negativity you’ll receive.
That’s how eg. Radio ads affect me. I can hardly endure listening to it (even passively) but the more I hear the repetition of one ad the more I will actively work against that product or company.
(there’s also research into this counter forceyit just doesn’t work and erode that way)
Futurama and the ads broadcast into your dreams.
Need therapy, therapy, advertising causes Need therapy, therapy, advertising causes Need therapy, therapy, advertising causes Therapy, therapy, advertising causes
That’s the neat thing, they don’t.
Marketing looks like it is there to make you buy products, but it’s a well-known fact that this doesn’t work, and online ads specifically allow performance measurements, and they show that it’s not worth the money.
So what are ads actually there for then?
First, remember that the thing that marketing departments are best at is marketing their own importance to company management. They are really good at convincing their companies that if they stop marketing, everything will collapse. So in this way, marketing is there to finance the marketing department, and everyone’s too scared to stop marketing, because if they do they will be seen as the biggest idiots ever.
Second, marketing is there to provide a small revenue stream to the platform where you see the ads, but more importantly to punish you for not paying premium. Youtube makes you watch a shitton of ads, not because they care about whether you buy anything from the ads, but to punish you for not paying premium and to get you to do so. A premium customer brings in orders of magnitude more money than an ad-only customer.
They are really good at convincing their companies that if they stop marketing, everything will collapse.
I hate that I’m going to defend marketing here, but if they do stop marketing then things will collapse (for many businesses). Do I like marketing, personally? No. That’s why I got out of marketing and am becoming an elementary school teacher to help others rather than spit propaganda but I digress…
Marketing isn’t always about generating a sale. Many times its reach and brand recall. We’re a global and digital economy now, so reach is massively important for survival. Stopping marketing limits who is exposed to your brand and the repetition makes your company synonymous with a product.
Why do we call tissues Kleenex? Why do we call cotton swabs a Qtip? Why do we call small sticky notepads Post-Its? Why do we call searching “Googling”? Why do we gravitate toward those brands even when cheaper and more generic options exist that are perfectly on par?
Making those brands the prime thing you think of when you use a specific thing so that no one thinks of using something else even when they have money. You want people to mention your product or think about it even if they aren’t buying it.
You’re drowning out the potential of your competition. That’s marketing, and if you stop then your competitor takes over or a small business won’t grow.
As an engineer who hated marketing, started my own business, which subsequently failed due to my lack of understanding for the importance and proper execution of the marketing mission… I now have a deep respect, and appreciation of a well-run marketing function.
I have a great business name and word of mouth carries me.
I feel like if you need marketing it’s because you have too many competitors all doing the same thing ie: no one needs your business.
If a business can not sustain itself without marketing, then the product is possibly not worth having.
This video by Northridgefix always stuck with me because most of why his business grew is because he spent so much Google ads that he made enough money to then move to a strip mall by a major road all while making YouTube videos and taking mailed in work.
He has another video looking for new employees because he had too much business.
Yeah, everyone knows Coca-Cola. Nobody immediately goes out to buy some when they see the ad with Santa Clause and whatever, but the brand recognition is conditioned into pretty much everyone so you notice it in the store when you’re thinking of grabbing a cool beverage from the fridge.
It’s not even that good, but it’s the default.
You’re drowning out the potential of your competition. That’s marketing, and if you stop then your competitor takes over or a small business won’t grow.
Tbh, I don’t think it’s that powerful. I’ve been happily googling on DuckDuckGo for years, same as I have been using Post-its from all sorts of companies and in fact never from Post-it. I don’t think this brand is even available in my country.
I’ve been using “Tixo” for “sticky tape” even though the Tixo brand went out of business around the time I was born.
In fact, if a brand name becomes genericised, it loses its power. It stops being a brand and becomes a generic term for anything in that space.
Brand recognition also goes the other way. You know, like when you see a McDonalds and you instinctively go “Ugh, these asshats who keep wasting my time with always the same ad over and over again when I try to watch a youtube video.”
Intrusive ads don’t further positive brand recognition but instead cause brand fatigue.
Yeah, back when I still watched cable TV, Canadian Tire had a recurring character in their ads where some neighbours were talking about a problem and the Canadian Tire guy would pop in with how Canadian Tire had a product that could help with that very problem.
Sounded like a normal kind of ad, but the guy came off as so smug and corporate, he was pretty much in the uncanny valley with his behaviour. Trying to play the ad off as a natural conversation just came off as so fake and I hated the ads to the point where I boycotted the windshield wipers despite them looking like exactly what I wanted.
They weren’t, I’d later learn after enough time had passed after they fired the guy (because turns out I wasn’t the only one who couldn’t stand him) and I decided they had learned their lesson. But the ads did more to drive me to other stores than help Canadian Tire’s business, even though they were already one of the default options (for those who don’t know them, they are a big box store that is like Home Depot plus car parts, outdoor sporting/camping/hunting, but minus a bunch of the hardware and any contractor focus).
Marketing is more than just advertising and promoting though. Marketing is an integral part of a business. If you research what your target audience likes, that’s marketing. Researching where you should sell your products, marketing. Focus group testing, marketing. What price you should sell, marketing. Even if a business doesn’t have a marketing department they still engage in marketing.
Yeah, it’s a very broad umbrella term.
I’m an engineer on a team that designs new products and fixes old ones. I’m happy to joke about the advertising & sales departments being the dark side of marketing, but when it comes to creating a product that is useful for our end-users, other facets of marketing are absolutely essential. The ideal, after all, is to have whatever ticket I am working on be traceable back to a customer need.
Heck, the product is pretty niche so even when I am chatting with our service technician about whatever crazy stuff customers are seeing & doing in the field, you could justify calling that marketing. It’s customer information making its way to future design decisions, even if that decision is actually being made by an engineer rather than the Product Manager.
As you see in the comments here lots of people have no idea what marketing is beyond promotion. Unfortunately it’s often engineers who are the clueless ones and just think that you just need to build a great product and the sales will come automatically. When businesses started by engineers often fail because they make something that has no product market fit because they skipped the crucial steps of marketing. Engineers often look down on MBAs and think an MBA is useless but in my opinion every engineer should take a business and marketing course.
the thing that marketing departments are best at is marketing their own importance to company management
That’s quite an interesting insight.
And a catchy one, but not really meaningful or correct.
The whole comment showcases how little they know about running a business. Marketing works. But of course we the consumer don’t notice it works, because we think “Well I never click on an ad…” which also reflects on advertisement statistics.
But that’s not the point of ads, at least not anymore. The point is you saw the brand. You saw what they do. Everytime you see the brand name or logo, everytime you see the product, your brain registers it. You might not realise it, but it does. And when the time comes you need a product like that, that’s where the value of marketing shows. Because you’ll browse, research, or whatever you do when you decide you need something. And you’ll see the brand, and you’ll see the name, and you’ll think “Hmm I’ve heard of them before” and immediately place them higher in your mind than a competitor with 0 ad budget.
I’m sure it’s true that a lot of marketing departments are useless, but adept at marketing themselves. At the same time, you’re right that marketing also can and does work, and the marketing that works best is when you’re not even conscious of it. For example, most of us here are well-aware of the upcoming Steam Frame and Steam Machine. How so? Marketing. Most people here hate ads, but post a Valve press release about upcoming hardware and nobody here even cares that they’re being marketed to.
“Uhg, McDonalds again. These assholes always waste my time with the same ad over and over again. I just want to watch a video. I hate these idiots.”
Yes, the brain registers. If a brand keeps annoying me over and over again with intrusive ads, the breain does register.
I find it boss that ads don’t make anymony. They seem to be driving the whole world economy.
They make money for those who sell ad space.
This is one of those fun conspiracy theories that is harmless, and can’t be argued against because you can always just say “SEE THEY’VE CONVINCED YOU TOO!”
It’s not, we can prove that marketing does in fact impact sales, but it’s fun nonetheless.
People keep saying that ads are to get the brand into my head, but they dont realise thats a bad thing for the company. I specificly buy brands i DONT see ads for because i believe if they arent spending money on ads but are still being sold in storesz they must be spending that money on bettering the product instead.
Sadly, you’re not the norm. Getting the brand into peoples’ heads actually works in most cases, which is why they keep doing it.
It’s insane to me how little thought people put into things in their daily lives, because you’re right. So many people see a thing and they’re like “Oh, I see the thing. I’ll do the thing. Coke flavored mouthwash on my TV? Yeah, let’s do coke flavored mouthwash.” Literally just the first unfiltered, uncritical reaction they feel.
I had someone the other day tell me they didn’t want to use Firefox because when they did it gave them a bunch of security issues. When I asked what they meant it turned out the security issues in question were the browser asking them if they wanted to let different websites know their location, have access to webcam, etc. “Well I just don’t like that it does that”
I don’t want to stray into XKCD territory, but it does seem like people in general tend to be less…conscientious about such things than I. However, I’m oblivious about plenty of things myself that others are more aware of, so I guess it’s just how different priorities work.
Yeah, I am very oblivious to many civil rights issues for instance. I guess it’s probably safe to assume I’m that kind of person to somebody out there, isn’t it?
Yeah, I instantly felt Myself feel judgy when you said you’re oblivious to civil rights issues. If you wanna learn about them, I’d be happy to answer questions or just tell a story.
Here’s one story. Australia doesn’t technically have marriage equality. We have gay marriage, but that’s not what I’m talking about. See, if you’re on a disability pension, and you live with a partner, you get less money. They assume your partner will cover for you. So lots of disabled people can’t afford to get married.
I do have a couple questions. How should I categorize and structure civil rights issues in my head, is it just by demographic? Where does intersectionality fit into that? Are there easily accessible websites I can look at regularly that will kind of just keep me aware of things that are happening?
I am immersed in groups that are focused on consumer rights and privacy, but I would need somewhere to ease me into civil rights until I have a lot of the baseline knowledge in my head already. Most of the civil rights issues im clued in on are just issues that people who I know personally, and people they know, have to deal with, as well as things I come across on the internet naturally.
I learned a lot of what I know about the current state of things from Lemmy. Reading ordinary news will get you that knowledge, but you have to read between the lines. Let’s do an example.
If we go to boingboing.net (My favourite news site) we see the headline Roblox will now have AI politely rewrite your trash talk. That seems like a cute silly story about games, but let’s use our brains to look for edge cases. AI is bad with nuance, so what happens if a 12 year old uses Roblox to tell their friends they’ve been feeling suicidal? This AI might cut off their access to peer support. That’s going to negatively impact groups that suffer youth suicidality, like queer youth. That angle isn’t explored on the page, you have to go to the comments on a place like Lemmy or use your noodle to find it.
I learned how to critically think about the news in school. In high school English and social science they made us read the news and critically analyse it like that.
Yes, this has been proven experimentally.
seems strange to me that this (in the attached image) isn’t the normal way people think
If you don’t have money for either product then you are not their target demographic, and thus, you being inconvenienced or delayed does not concern them in the slightest.
Their goal is to get money from the people who have money. How they affect people with no money is not a factor in their decisions, since no money will be acquired from them regardless.
I get that for stuff like billboards and tv/radio commercials… But why does google and friends keep telling me about how they need my data to give me targeted ads? If they wanted to give me targeted ads, shouldn’t they first figure out how much I’m willing to pay, then get mad at me because I can’t pay for anything and maybe offer ads for mental health services?
I mean obviously the answer is that they just want the data for control and whatnot. But they should just drop the whole pretending to do targeted advertising. I would probably appreciate their honesty if they just told me that they need my data to grow their business, instead of giving me the “we care about your data” and targeted ads bullshit lol
But anyway, doesn’t really matter for me personally since I use ad blockers, if I can’t use ad blockers, I’ll stop using the service and go read a book.
get money from the people who have money.
The “whales” is the advertising business term for that.
While we’re clearing out the air, if I buy your shitty product, why do I still need to see your fucking ads?
Or worse.
Theres a product I need, never seen an ad for it. Go online, buy it. Thats all my ads are for the next 3 months like I’m some sort of fucking collector now.
And, closely related, the recurring “auto ship” suggestion for items like electric razors or oven mitts.
Yep, you nailed it, Alexa, I absolutely need one of these shipped every fucking week. Saved me so much hassle!
The fact that McDonald’s exists is proof that advertising works.
Last time I went to cDonald’s it tasted fine and was rather enjoyable. But I felt queasy the following day.
On the other hand, you never see ads for beans and yet you can’t stop thinking about them.
Rubbish, I can stop thinking about beans any time I want.
…
…
Mmmmmmm, beans on toast with a bit of cheese. DAMNIT!Are you sure the Bud Spencer and Terrace Hill movies haven’t been a ad campaign by big Beans?
I see ads for beans all the time here on Lemmy, they are just disguised as memes.
Because you might have money someday
Because you saved that money so that you could buy their product!
They aren’t worried in the literal you, in one sense.
Advertising is a temporal numbers game. Any one random single individual (or household) at any given time is insignificant. You are a speck of dust in the wind.
On the flip side, advertising is (or can be) a long game. At the moment you may be too young, too poor, too healthy, too whatever for their ads to be relevant. However, if they advertise enough and you see enough of these ads, it can make an impression (even if subliminal). And down the line when you’re old enough to need dick pills and making just enough to afford them, you’re now aware that dick pills exist and suddenly now that you’re in the market for dick pills your reptilian brain will remember that jingle “Like a rock” and how Dicken’s dick pills are the key to feeling 18 again. Suddenly you’re sucking down Dicken’s pills like they’re candy.
What scares me is the political and military ads I see every so often. Along with other fud type things. Its nuts and kind of a relief to actually see an ad selling a physical product.
Oh, how about the ads for that insurance company that’s just for military families? Way to bark up the wrong tree. Even if the point is to subtly convince me to join the United States military, that’s still hilariously off-target. Never. gonna. happen.
those and even the charity ones kinda grate on me. We need to do stuff for americans who when young nonchalantly signed off on being willing to kill when told to but fuck other americans.
I find it wild that people are still under the impression that advertising doesn’t work. I get it, you block ads, you aggressively ignore them, you feel like they never influence you. Same here. But they do influence us. A little bit here and there. Then consider that most people are way more suggestible than we are. If ads didn’t work, they would’ve never been a thing.
You might think you cannot afford to buy most things advertised, but the numbers don’t lie. They’ll get you eventually. Even if it’s just $3. Not having money never really stopped people from spending it anyhow.
It is because it works that I spend so much time trying to block them. I don’t need them trying to manipulate me, gaslight me, or try to convince me I need shit I don’t want.
It’s incredibly toxic.
It’s unlikely that you’re exceptional in your resistance to advertising.
It’s just that 95% of all advertising fails to hit its intended target.
I am definitely in the vast minority of people who go so far to not see ads. Not many people will tinker with a raspberry pi for hours just to avoid the possibility of an ad appearing in video streaming services. Lemmy is a bubble that way. You’d rarely meet someone in real life that uses pihole for example but there’s thousands on here who do.
And I think the number is higher than 95%. All it takes is a tiny percentage for it to all be worth it.
it took you HOURS to install pihole?
It took me hours to setup a raspberry pi for tv viewing with all the hardware and software I needed working.
Anymore gotchas?
I’ve never used pihole but I’m sure you could spend hours tweaking it if you wanted to anyhow.
I’m just not even sure what your point would be no matter how I interpret this. If pihole is quick to setup, you really think many people use it? It’s probably way under .0001% of households using that.
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You might think you cannot afford to buy most things advertised, but the numbers don’t lie. They’ll get you eventually. Even if it’s just $3.
Do you really believe that? $3 isn’t going to get me the things I see ads for that I’d actually be tempted by. As to things $3 or below, I’m never shopping at the craft store that hates gay people. I’m never buying from the top fast food places either. These are things I already made decisions on for moral reasons and I’ve never swayed on in all my years, so why on Earth would an ad make a difference?
I don’t think advertisers (or those that think any old ad is bound to be effective) consider that there are some of us who make decisions based on our own criteria. I recognize that I’m not like most people, but to say that such ads are still going to “get [me] eventually” is nonsense.
Not having money never really stopped people from spending it anyhow.
Maybe for some, but that’s again not something that applies to everyone. I don’t even have a credit card. I’ve had nearly 20 years of adulthood in which to get one, have bought/leased cars and rented apartments without a problem (despite no card, paying off student loans means my credit score is pretty good), and I prefer the security of only spending money I’ve already got. Advertisers can have fun trying to squeeze
bloodmoney from a stone.I don’t really understand this comment. You actually really believe you are the one person in history completely unaffected by messaging? I cannot imagine thinking that. I have no doubt it would be trivial to disprove this to you in an in person conversation but I’m not getting dragged into an argument here for it.
I love how many unique people who are immune to adds here are.
You are being effected by adds, you will do purchace decision effected by add campaing. You have done purchace decision effected by add campaign.
You can have moral standing and boycot companies. You can decite you dont use that one brand, but as long as you are consumer, your buying habits will always be slightly effected by adds.
You probably simply never noticed. Maybe the grocery chain you buy at. Maybe a particularly flashy packaging of a food item in said grocery store. Maybe an outrageous fun sex toy you saw in porn. Maybe you’re subscribed to a Patreon somewhere. Maybe you have a t-shirt of your favorite show. Do you really make all these decisions completely conscious of all advertising you saw before, making sure that you do not miss any better alternatives with worse advertising?
No person can think so much about all their decisions to spend money. No one can be so perfectly conscious of every single sensory input. Advertising works on everyone, you just don’t even notice when it works on you.
No person can think so much about all their decisions to spend money.
Aw, I wish I didn’t need to budget every cent, but with the small amount of pocket change I’ve got to buy things, being careful with it becomes normal. Most of the food I buy is straight up raw vegetables, or store brand frozen/canned items (which are bought because they’re cheapest. Or is “advertisement” so broad of a term that it applies to ordinary price tags?) Clothing is whatever’s affordable, fits, and looks and feels good enough. When you’re teetering on the edge of homelessness (and have experienced it three times), survival becomes your main priority. Penny pinching is unavoidable. Frivolous spending becomes a pipe dream.
Even if ads are still sneaking info into my brain, I’m hard-pressed to think of any purchases I’ve made where brand names factor in. I’m really trying to think of something here, but even the less common things I’ve spent money on were chosen through experience (like a game I played with a friend, then decided I wanted a copy of) or research (like when I bought a solar generator last year. I’d never even heard of the company before I sought it out for myself.)
I guess a local Chinese food flyer put on a doorknob counts as advertising that works, though even then if they don’t have decent veg options and prices, it’s going to be a no-go. So sure, that’s your “gotcha.” Chinese food flyers. All the money spent on ads around the world, and the only thing I can recall purchasing based on it took some person taking a walk and hanging menus on doors.
I get it, ads are designed to manipulate, to put ideas into people’s heads as a latent reminder, like a virus waiting for the right moment to strike. Maybe some day if I actually make enough money to not have to be extraordinarily careful with it, more of them might get a chance to work. Who knows. Right now, price is the biggest pain point, overriding brand recognition. With the way things are going, I don’t expect that to change any time soon.
Perhaps the best advertisement would be if a company decided to lobby for higher wages - that’d definitely make a company name stick in my head in a positive way, and would provide me the opportunity to spend money on them, to boot!
They don’t care about you. They care about the people that do have the money.
Those people would pay for ad-free. Edit: according to OP’s logic.
Some would, but it always surprises me to see how many people don’t appear to be bothered by ads.
people have the ability to tune things out. ads never bother me.
The thing with ads is, even if they dont consciously bother you, they still rot your brain.
Pa pa pa pa paaa Pa pa pa pa paaa
Coca cola!
Gives you cancer! Cha cha chaaa!
I block ads but only because they became super egregious and are a threat vector in some cases. My default state is “oblivious idiot”. It’s not that I’m not susceptible to marketing, it’s that by the time I notice it you’ve already broken the web page I’m on and now I hate you.
Exactly.
Annoy you into paying.
It would be funny if all of the ads are for fake products, and just meant to be as annoying as possible to push people into subscriptions. That would explain all the poorly-acted piano lesson app ads.
No they wouldn’t. I’m of those people. I don’t pay for ad free.
Lol. Plenty of people who have money and don’t.
I mean, I’m too stingy to pay for premium but I do buy detergent.
I don’t know what to buy till I got to the store and see the prices.
And if the prices are similar, you’re more likely to buy the brand you’ve seen advertised more often. Maybe even if you have to pay more. Or even if you won’t, most other people would.
I buy the one that I liked the most.
Yeah good point. Subconscious influence isn’t real /s
Not to sound like your mum but that may be why you don’t have money.
Shouldn’t this save money?
How would that SAVE money? Buying groceries without knowing what you have at home and what you need?
I interpreted it as meaning they decide on the specific brand when they’re at the grocery store and are able to compare prices. They’ve already decided beforehand that they needed detergent.
Huh. Okay, even then, prices don’t fluctuate so wildly you’d have to make that decision every time.
But sales man
