- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
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Sometimes people mix up the order of things and thus the cause and effect. For instance, with some medical issues, doctors have thought things like “oh, you went on this extreme diet, then you lost weight and had gastric issues”. No, I lost weight and had gastric issues, so I went on an extreme diet. In this case, i think the misogyny precedes lack of success at finding a partner. It can also be a situation of giving up too soon. For me, middle school and high school were so horrible in various ways that i assumed I was 100% doomed - I didn’t realize that life after 20 is very different. It still has high school social aspects, but it’s a lot better in many ways.
Please teach me how to make the best out of my 20s!
Be more accepting of yourself and follow those passions. Nobody cares in your 20s what you do in your spare time, as long as it is something. There is nothing more boring than a person who has no passions and just exists.
If I was to redo my 20s. What worked was going to university in my mid 20s. I was able to finish it much quicker and made some close friends during by that time as well as set my career path going. What I wish I had done was move away from the city I grew up in. I only did it in my late 20s and I regret not doing it sooner.
Have lots of social interactions. It’s valuable. Set yourself up career wise. Always check to know you haven’t hit a ceiling where you’re working. Exercise and travel lots would be my key takeaways.
Great advice, thanks!
Always check to know you haven’t hit a ceiling where you’re working
Disagree. Sometimes its perfectly fine to hit a ceiling if you are comfortable where you are and are withing comfortable means. This always look for better is exhausting, and 100% guarantees you will never like your job.
To be clear, I am NOT advocating that people should stay in dead end job they hate. Do not under any circumstance willingly stay at a job you hate. you only get one life, dont make it about work or money.
I think it’s important in your 20s to push yourself and know where your ambitions and priorities lie. Checking if your work is a dead end can also signify wherever you’re growing in your skill sets too. What you don’t want is suddenly needing to push yourself later in life having to compete with people younger and hungrier than you. Try young and try hard will help minimise regret later.
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Eh I’d say experiment if you want, but be responsible about it. Don’t let it consume your life or have priority over family, friends, work, etc. If you’re going to party, best to get it out of your system when you’re young, when consequences are less impactful.
And if you do, do the fun stuff like weed, cocaine, shrooms, LSD, stuff like that. Don’t fuck with the dangerous stuff like heroin, fentanyl, meth, or pills like xanax or other benzos. Also alcohol can be dangerous too.
Unless you are not in a mentally healthy place, or know you are susceptible to addiction. Then don’t even try.
Coke belongs in your second list.
Yeah, way too much sugar.
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Doing drugs was good for me, but more than doing drugs was being selective about it. I smoked pot sparingly and dropped acid a few times when I was pretty sure I was in a good place mentally.
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I feel like going straight after high school allows you to naturally join all the parties and clubs. Which will definitely help with socialising. But I’m not a party guy so I might’ve felt left out and alone anyway.
Going later I made friends with mostly people in their mid 20s too. Which was good because we were more focused on graduating so it was more productive. The friendships I made felt tight and not a flash in a pan or party based. But that really depends on the people you meet.
I think it’s still worth going to uni straight after high school unless you have a good reason not to. What I can say is deciding to go later for career prospects is also great and not too late at all.
Get fit by finding something you enjoy that gets your heart going, track your spending, learn cook healthy meals, listen well and develop empathy. Good things will come.
One tip, say yes more than you say no.
Of course, there are exceptions, but try to say yes more than you’d initially want. If coworkers are going out for drinks after work, but you’d rather go home and stream/game/etc, go out. Same for other social activities.
As someone in their 20s who detests that kind of thing and wouldn’t ever say yes, what’s the reasoning behind saying yes?
Drunk people are awful, and going out is loud and annoying. Is it just that it’s a good skill to be able to do things that make you miserable?
No, it’s good to improve your social skills
For what purpose though? Socialising seems like a waste of time.
If you never want to have a partner or socialize ever and want to live alone, I guess you could just not talk to people other than for work
This is not the most common case, though
“your network is your net worth” also loneliness kills
Then why are you here?
For the purpose of not being completely alone and sad in your 30ies
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you don’t have to get shitfaced. I usually get non-alcohlic beer
I 100% empathize with your situation. Mine was nearly identical in my early 20s. I’m very introverted, spending time with people is draining.
In my late 20s, I started forcing myself to say yes more to nearly anything and everything. I made some great new life long friends, had experiences that I’d never had considered in the past, and overall became a better person due to more varied experiences. Additionally, I’ve had many career opportunities open up because of these relationships.
Trust me, I know the comfort zone is easy to stay in and enjoy all the time. I do it still! But I also try to force myself out of my comfort zone. It makes me a better person with more perspectives to draw upon.
Finally, drinking doesn’t have to be the activity, that was a quick example. Going to the beach, go for a hike, go to an arcade or barcade, play board games, and on and on.
And if you don’t want to, that’s perfectly fine. But I’d highly suggest just trying it for a period of time. You may dislike it at first, but it will affect you as a person in many ways, some of those may be positive.
Suggest an activity not involving drinking that would like to do with others instead.
Just spending time with them without drinking? It’s not a difficult concept. Why do you require alcohol in order to interact with others?
But why do I need to spend time with others at all? Work is for working, I don’t go to work to make friends or socialise.
You don’t have to socialise with co-workers, but if you don’t have many friends it’s a good start. Interacting with other people, improving your social skills, learning and sharing from/with others all help you grow as a human and find your place in the world.
You’ll hate having fun less if you have fun more.
I’m literally on the spectrum and being around people can be the exhausting, but it’s still a good habit to say yes more, because you will genuinely enjoy those experiences, and your life, more as you engage more.
I’m also autistic and I have tried saying yes to things, but I just don’t enjoy it.
Friends are mainly just extra effort that I don’t have the time or energy for. I have one, and my dogs, and I don’t feel I need anything more than that.
Now I just work from home and only have to see coworkers every six months or so for an office visit. It’s pretty great.
Whilst I respect your experiences, they’re not a universal truth for everyone.
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Don’t have kids until your 30s.
And don’t feel the need to have kids in your 30s either.
Then enjoy your fourties while the parents get ground down by the unreasonable burdens of raising kids.
Find exercise that’s fun, that you will continue to do for the rest of your life. Exercise regularly. You don’t need to get swole, but it staves off mental health better than anything.
Compare beers to sodas. If you would feel odd drinking 5 sodas in a row, you should feel odd drinking 5 beers in a row. Don’t be the last guy at the bar/party.
Just build healthy daily habits.
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Let go of the small things and just be. It’s not exactly “don’t give a fuck,” but it’s close. Aim for meeting people and going out to do things, not necessarily specific people or popular things, just good people and things that are fun for you outside of the house. Realize you will grow and change a lot in your 20s, and so will everyone around you; so if you have a huge crush on someone your age that doesn’t like you back that way, then tell yourself you might really dislike them in 5 years so it’s not a big loss if they don’t like you now. It’s also OK to let friends go if you have an attraction to them that isn’t returned, because you have to protect your mental health. It’s OK to not drink or do drugs, but it’s also OK to drink and do drugs… just don’t do either to extremes and don’t be extreme about not doing drugs/alcohol. Try joining clubs for different things, even things you’ve never done. Realize most people don’t have things figured out in their 20s and that you can make mistakes. Make mistakes. Be well-rounded. It’s cool to play video games and DnD, but don’t JUST do that (especially if you want to meet women). Get clothes that fit properly, not necessarily expensive or cool clothes. A completely plain t-shirt that fits well (go to Target and buy every color of their Goodfellow everywhere V-neck T for $8 each) plus a pair of jeans that aren’t baggy and some Adidas shoes is an outfit you can wear everyday that will look good and is so comfortable.
really depends on the drug imo… It is like playing the lottery… I know people who have permanent health issues (ie - halucinations) now as a result of cannabis and my father died of an OD and got started on hard drugs via a laced joint. I’m not going to be an asshole about it but I really wouldn’t recommend doing drugs.
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And that’s totally your choice, but if you judge or avoid others because of their choices then you will be limiting who will be comfortable hanging out with you.
Take care of yourself, dress in a way that makes you look your best, and pursue what you want. Also be fun to be around. Moderately attractive and fun beats out hot and miserable nearly every time
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I guess as long as they’re not maxxed out lol
Oh god no I’m joking dude no don’t do that lol
You could join the AirForce. Get a degree or two out of it and get to travel some. 4 years isn’t a terrible commitment. I’d avoid the navy, army, or Marines tho, unless you also want to aim for medical disability lol
Don’t serve the evil empire
Worked out ok for me
I was 21 when I joined up. Got my batchelors, saw the world, met some people, did some things. Now I’m settled where I want doing the career I want. I credit the navy with a lot of the growing up/maturing I did.
That’s not what this link says
Yeah, i drink wine all day and can’t actually read.
Probably not the best thing to do if you have gastric issues.
Yeah, I don’t think it’s recommended in general.
Yeah the sexual frustration is definitely caused by extreme misogyny though
Chicken or egg doesn’t really matter. It’s a vicious cycle that reinforces itself and gets worse the longer it continues.
It matters if you aim at doing something about the phenomenon, no?
Stupid bitches. Why won’t they sleep with me?
Interestingly, the first paragraphs of the linked article say that researchers found the opposite.
If I hadn’t met my wife 30+ years ago, I can see how I might have become a sort of paleo-proto-incel…maybe just more of a bitter old maid of a man that no woman would want to be around. I do feel for the incels. They certainly aren’t happy. There’s something unhealthy about a society that produces so damn many of them.
Yeah, I don’t know. I feel much more sorry for the girls and women who get hit by that hatred. And they definitely do. Online and sometimes offline as well. I see it in school (in Germany) how some boys as young as 12 already bought into the incel narratives and treat the girls accordingly. This has to be stomped out.
I pity the girls who get treated horribly and I pity the incels who do it because they’re deeply unhappy people. My pity doesn’t justify what they do about their unhappiness, but it is a sad state of affairs all around.
That’s part of why they feel like they don’t belong and hate the world. No one is saying you should excuse their actions or that you should not prosecute them. I agree that this has to be stomped out, but treating symptoms instead of the causes only goes so far.
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Everyone close to me was this. We went outside though and weren’t bombarded by screens 24/7. Had space to think and learn and solve and grow. Instead of echo chambers of ppl comprised of the worst parts of ourselves.
But if there are so many male incels that means there must be many female incels, where are they?
These guys aren’t physically repulsive, it’s their shit personalities that keeps them from getting laid.
The study found the opposite. The really bad guys were the ones with many partners.
At least a subset do. The study concedes it’s self-reported and not necessarily a representative sample of all incels.
At the very least, it sounds more to me like there’s now just cross-pollination between the old PUA community/philosophy and the incel community. Both are highly misogynistic, but incel culture is literally defined by men unable to find partners and PuAs are defined by men who only find many multiple partners.
A mysoginist claiming to have multiple partners just sounds like a Red Piller to me, not an incel, and I’m a bit suspicious of this whole “study”. I’m curious whether this study even bothered to consider that distinction. I read the article top to bottom and found no indication on how they actually identified their sample of incels as incels, and couldn’t find a link to the study itself. It appears like they simply found some online mysoginists and assumed they were all incels.
Where in the study did they wrote that?
Contrary to the incel narrative, the study found that extreme misogynistic views were driven by a psychology of dominance and status-seeking, which correlated with having many sexual partners. The study suggests that individuals who hold these extreme views are more similar to socially dominant “Chads” than to the stereotypical incel who turns his sexual frustration into hatred and a desire for revenge against women.
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They may not all be physically repulsive, and all of their shit personalities aren’t all that keeps them from getting laid. 🤪🤣
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Personally I think not enough attention is paid to how community atomization and sprawl, and the near elimination of the third place in America, has fostered a crisis of loneliness.
Young men chronically have no outlets through which they can socially interact with women. The only place it happened was at school and maybe some extracurriculars if they were especially social.
Society unconsciously brushes this crisis off with “well the real friends that matter are the ones you make in college anyways!” Ignoring how that doesn’t help guys that don’t have higher study in their life plan, or the fact that learning to properly socialize is kinda the point of those grade school friends you’ll probably lose touch with in adulthood.
All that was the case even BEFORE the pandemic hit, now even school’s been atomized, granted, rightfully so in the circumstances, with classes going virtual and leaving students in a situation where the Internet is the only place left in the world where they can learn any social skills, and that’s where the damned redcaps and chuds swoop in to prey on their insecurities.
That “college friends” line always bugged me. I keep in closer touch with my good high school friends then I do with my old college friends.
College is for networking, if you go to that kind of school. Yeah, you can definitely make good friends in College, but I also made better friends in high school.
I’m the exact opposite. I don’t keep in touch with anyone from below college outside of the odd text once or twice a year.
I only have Internet friends :(
I’ll be your internet friend. How’s the weekend going?
Came here to say something similar. Loneliness is the cancer eating our society. I used to feel terribly lonely, even with incredible close friends, around holidays. That translated into feeling lonely much of the time because I was aware there was no one at those special times. Side note: never been an incel or misogynist.
Also the fact that most clubs in colleges today are segregated
Wait what?
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well in my uni, most of the normal clubs (ie - acm) had womens versions which didn’t allow men. Additionally most of the clubs at my school were actually segregated by race/nationality/religion (ie - african students union, korean christian association, muslim student assocation, society of hispanic engineers, etc.). So there were only a few clubs I was actually allowed to join and it they were basically all white males despite not being exclusive like the other ones. Schools fund these clubs so that they can claim they’re supporting diversity and inclusion and sure they’re supporting minority communities, but at the same time I don’t think the results are what they were hoping.
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You can make friends anywhere. Many people make them in situations like high school or college but there are other options like church, work, online, clubs, hobbies, bars, etc.
It seems like a stretch to blame society because specific people have poor social skills and can’t attract a mate or friends. Putting them in social situations more common of the past doesn’t mean they’d have any better luck. They lack skills that take trial and error and lots of practice that most other people learn at a young age. I know a couple of guys that could be considered incels and they lack self awareness, refuse to listen to advice, and spend nearly all their time playing games online. If they actively choose not to work at improving their deficiencies, whose fault is that? If someone is morbidly obese yet refuses to eat healthier and instead goes out to McDonald’s for every meal, would you say the same thing? At the end of the day you have to take some responsibility for the situations that you find yourself stuck in. That’s not to say these people deserve it, but we all have our own challenges in life that we must overcome.
So it turns out that it’s not a lack of women giving them a bad attitude - it’s their bad attitude giving them a lack of women. Who’d have thought.
So if I understand correctly, the study suggests the driving factor might well be longing for social dominance and sociopathic traits and not necessarily sexual frustration.
My theory that a rising number of men end up being Incels is that it’s getting harder and harder for young men to make any experience with women at all.
Online and offline dating became toxic af which leads to frustration. This frustration opens the door for people like Andrew Tate.
The article from OP says the most misogynistic men are ironically the ones which get laid the most. I’d put Andrew Tate into this category.
Frustration leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to Tate
Why do you suppose dating is worse now? I will disagree any time and place with people who say online dating is awful. The alternative – randomly hitting on people and hoping a million unknowable factors all line up – is far worse.
You are joking right? Online dating is even worse than offline dating.
First of all there are far more men using online dating than women.
Second men like and Text way to many women which leads women’s inboxes to be overfilled.
Most of the few available women only want the top 15% of the men.
Then the dead profiles aka. only their Instagram username tagged in bio.
And there are also those who chat with you for a few days and then try to sell their adult content to you or want you to invest in crypto XY.
I’ve met my gf on a dating platform 5 years ago and the online dating situation was bad then already. I occasionally saw the posts in r/tinder and oh boy has that thing become a shitshow since then.
Idk I’m a married dude nearing 40 who is on dating sites a fair amount (it’s cool so is my wife), and I’m a pretty average guy all-around, and it doesn’t seem like this hellscape you paint it as. I have everything possible stacked against me for online dating, and I consistently get what I’m looking for.
Yeah there are lots of crazies, but that’s because crazy people exist, and you’d run into them in more traditional dating too. Check out any romcom from the 90s and there’ll likely be a montage of crazies.
I am glad that online dating works out for you my friend. Don’t wanna offend you but we are talking about young people. you turning 40 means you are middle aged. The customers of Tate and similar assholes are mostly under 30 years.
I regularly speak with women in their late 20s. My cutoff is 26 so I avoid people my daughter knows.
If you’re on sites specializing in ENM that’s probably why, niche enough that the bots and toxic algo practices haven’t descended upon them yet
If there are ENM sites with people on them I’d love a link. I mainly stick to Tinder and Bumble because Feeld hasn’t been adopted in my area.
Very open to suggestions tho.
Feeld has been really good for me compared to other apps. Im a relatively vanilla fellow but the culture around communication is stronger there and the results have been good. And Ive only been using it for single dating so far.
Hope it rolls out for you soon because it has been a refreshing experience
I really like Feeld, it’s just that there’s near-zero adoption here. I keep semi-active on it in the hopes the user number keeps growing tho!
Bloom is what I use right now
I’ll check it out!
So you are a success story yourself for online dating, but because you see the most insane experiences from it getting posted on social media, it’s obviously now irredeemable…? Do you not have any self awareness?
it’s not a “success story”. I’ve experienced ALOT of bad stuff before my gf messaged me. I’ve been on multiple dating platforms and all of them were toxic af. I was deleting my accounts while my gf texted me.
Having bad experiences doesn’t erase the fact that you got a long term girlfriend from using online dating. That is still what happened. Unless you want to break up with your girlfriend right now, denying it’s a success story is denying reality.
Like are you people really old or what? Everyone who can’t stfu about how bad online dating is always confuses me.
I guess i have to go a little more into detail to make you understand. I’ve been using online dating from age 16-20 and made only bad expirences. That’s why I was deleting all of my accounts. my girlfriend was the first woman who messaged me first and I immediately told her that I am deleting my account so we have to stay connected via WhatsApp. is it a success that I found a long term girlfriend? Yes Does it erase the shitload of bad stuff I experienced in the 4 years before her message? no.
It’s a fact that online dating is toxic. Both Bumble and Tinder released statistics which show that women want the top 15% of men. Most men end up with single digit likes, if they even get any. Women’s inboxes on the other hand explode from unsolicited wiener pics or similar unwanted messages.
It isn’t a “fact”. The only fact you seem intent on ignoring is that people suck in general which isn’t a reflection on how tOxIC apps are. You found someone who doesn’t suck but we obviously can’t credit to the existence of an app for that, but we sure can blame all the people sucking on it right? Such a silly hill to die on.
Also I don’t think any dating site has allowed sending pictures for a while, so no dick pics wouldn’t really be an issue.
I’m average looking but still managed to get dozens of dates. Rejection sucks and the apps give you a lot of that but they also, again, demonstrably, give us long term relationships. It’s a FACT. An actual FACT. Subjective experiences are not facts, however us both having girlfriends right now is. Now tell me again how that doesn’t count for literally anything because women usually don’t message us back.
Why do you suppose dating is worse now?
Globalization and social media
Just read the articles on Tinder, it’s a sad affair for the not attractive man
When all men you had access to where the village boys you won’t be that picky. Once the whole world can sext you, why settle for the ok dude that looks nice in a suit if you squint enough?
I don’t need to read articles, I have years of actual first hand experience
It goes both ways for “not attractive” women as well.
This is purely anecdotal, but all of the “not attractive” men I have known who complain there’s no women online for them are only talking about women who are more attractive than them. The ones who don’t complain have realistic standards and can find matches. It also tends to help they don’t have s shit attitude.
But it’s still a numbers game. More attractive people get more matches, but that doesn’t mean those are quality matches. I guess if all you’re looking for is casual sex it makes a difference.
It goes both ways for “not attractive” women as well
It does not, unless you mean “grotesquely not attractive”? Just read the articles, women are ruthless when rating men, so even “average” men can’t get “average”, or less-than, women (online dating)
But it’s still a numbers game
You are underestimating the numbers by too much
most online dating apps want you to engage in casual sex and not find success because then you’ll keep coming back. TInder, Bumble, etc. are first and foremost hookup apps and it’s important to remember that.
the entire concept of an incel did not exist until tinder came about. Read the article and paper. Hookup apps promote the type of promiscuous/chad behavior that incels want and fail to achieve … thus causing their frustration
Sexual frustration comes from mysgonstic talking points that women, rightfully, keep their distance from. Why would I want to sleep with someone who is demeaning and insulting to me? 😂
Maybe not you but someone out there might. Age has taught me the world takes all types.
Contrary to the incel narrative, the study found that extreme misogynistic views were driven by a psychology of dominance and status-seeking, which correlated with having many sexual partners.
That’s the real problem. They’re not necessarily sexually frustrated, that’s only a piece of it. It’s a distortion of their value and self-esteem, projected onto women. “If I matter, women should sleep with me.”
psychology of dominance and status-seeking = entitled
Concise and accurate. Which is odd to me because I’d think that’s an Alpha Bro but apparently it’s a Chad trait.
it’s an abuser’s trait. Lundy Brancroft taught me that in his book ‘Why does he do that?’
I would have gone with pathetically desperate rather than entitled, but close enough.
I think they project it anywhere other than themselves to be honest. I lurked their hideouts for a bit out of curiosity and they seem to place a lot of their hate onto other men too. The whole vibe of the places is to whinge about the success of others (who are doing it wrong by not treating women like shit like they deserve because women having standards at all is wrong somehow) while also reinforcing amongst themselves that whatever is wrong with them cannot be changed, improved, repaired or fixed and any attempt to do so is to be attacked for trying to become one of those men who are doing it "wrong and tgus deserve scorn.
Successful relationships or even short term sexual liasons with women do not give them value in their micro societies. It causes them to lose status. They want a very particular kind of completely unchallengable dominance based on their intrinsic entitlement and any compromise on that can mean exile from the places they go for comfort… It’s a death cult. Flat out they want people to abandon hope forever and wallow in their worst qualities and misery until they no longer feel any point in living.
Interestingly, that is the same logic MGTOW have for not wanting women in their lives. Just replace mysogeny with misandry in the assertion.
But that’s not the topic? I wish MGTOW would just go their own way already instead of pestering everyone with their bullshit.
Is MIGTOW not widely considered a red pill community? Who are they pestering? Wouldn’t that mean they aren’t going their own way?
very well put; vegan btw…
Thank you!
It also comes from not being able to communicate to a potential partner how you would like to climax. Likely out of embarrassment or shame.
Also you don’t have to do shit for anyone that insults you.
No because sexual frustration is just being inevitable outcome of their personality. This is only a revelation to people who never met them.
Most incels seem to lean pretty politically conservative, that’s where I figure it comes from.
Me trying to put politics into every post I see:
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Id be misogynistic as fuuuuuck.
If that pickle is supposed to represent incels, they should have used a baby dill instead.
In a post about misogyny, you being misandrist isn’t helpful.
haha smol peen funi
My running theory is most of these people are queer to some degree. They end up hating women because they don’t have the communication skills to express what they want out of a relationship. When they become unfulfilled then they blame it on the person they think is supposed to be fulfilling them. Sorry boys if you want your SO to peg and domme you you need to tell them.
While I’ve experienced some pretty horrible misogyny from some gay men, I don’t think this is even close to being accurate (and is one more way to make queer people the enemy). There are plenty of straight men who hate women but still want to fuck them. Those things can coexist, unfortunately.
Yeah, I really don’t think Andrew Tate’s issues spring from a latent attraction to men.
In fact the study shows that the most misogynistic men were the ones getting laid the most.
You know, it wasn’t that long ago when it was pretty common for closeted gay men to overcompensate at hiding their gayness to the point of sexism and homophobia. People like that do still exist. I can imagine some incels very well being queer, and acting out either in compensation or confusion and frustration over their own feelings having not come to terms with their sexuality.
I didn’t say that there are no incels who are closeted. Just that I don’t think that it’s anywhere near “most” of them.
They can, unfortunately. Oof wasn’t my intention to make queer people the enemy in any form.
But I’ve known queer cis men to be misogynistic, granted not to Andrew Tates degree, because they were embarrassed to express their sexual desires.
So this very well could be me with a hammer looking for a nail.
That could be a cute romance story. Two incels bond over hating women and SJWs. They get together to play Valorant or browse 4chan in bed together while posting gore. They turn to each other and speak in green text and kiss.
It really would(n’t) be but that takes some self awareness and reflection many of them simply don’t have the skills to achieve. I’d assume once you have achieved that amount of self awareness you stop hating women but maybe I’m being hopeful.
You don’t need to be queer to enjoy being dominated by a woman. Kink takes all sexual attractions and genders, as long as everyone is consenting.
What? This sort of sounds like some shit an incel would say.
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So… what you’re saying is more or less that misogyny in incels is probably caused by sexual frustration?
