To everyone saying this is “both sides bad” shit: that is an incorrect characterization, as that would imply the parties are on different sides.
Nah, this is some “both sides are bad” bullshit. One side tried to get rid of student loan debt and the other side said no. One side is fighting for equal right for all races/genders/color etc and the other side says no. It goes on and on like this. Give me a break.
Abortion rights were repealed under Democrats, trans rights are being repealed under Democrats, police budgets have increased in response to BLM, and non-stop war is completely bipartisan.
Both sides ARE bad, just because one of them sometimes offers tepid opposition doesn’t make them good. Democrats are not on your side either.
In fact Obama campaigned on codifiying abortion rights but when he entered office he admitted its not a priority for his administration.
Obama was peak liberalism. All talk, no show.
and several war crimes
What good is being a liberal if you cant have a little warcrimes as a treat?
Abortion rights were repealed because Trump got 3 partisan supreme court justices appointed.
Then pack the courts, codify abortion rights into federal law, do some executive order bullshit, or fuck it, abolish the supreme court entirely. There’s a lot Democrats CAN do but aren’t. If we’re being very charitable, then they value made-up rules over your human rights. That’s the party you want representing you?
Packing the courts sets a precedent the next republican can just pack it the other direction. Before we know it we have hundreds of supreme court justices.
Any law passed by congress can be struck down by the same supreme court as an over reach to state rights. Nevermind democrats barely have a simple majority, and can’t get past a filibuster. 3 of their simple majority come from heavily red states (Brown, Manchin, and Tester) and are up for reelection next year. Almost no way they’d vote for it, meaning they’d likely not even get it passed.
Executive order bullshit only goes for the executive branch. Not legislative or judicial. Biden could wind up impeached for over reach at worst, but have it struck down at best, just like student loans were struck down by the supreme court, which was far more closer to the executive than abortion rights.
The supreme court is constitutionally created, and you can’t modify the constitution without a 2/3rds of congress and 3/4ths of state legislatures. Democrats barely have a majority in congress, and only 19 state legislatures.
It really is not that simple. If people had not been abstaining because ‘both parties are the same’ and Trump had never been elected, then we wouldn’t be in this mess.
I agree they’re not as liberal as they should be, but the people who are voting are conservative. Until more leftists start voting, the politicians will not represent them and fascists will keep getting elected with only 20% of the population voting for them.
So pack the courts and then write laws to set things in stone in their favor. If Democrats don’t do it, then they’re leaving the door open for Republicans to do it. Or just have hundreds of judges, who cares? What’s the worst that could happen, our rights could be taken away? Already happening.
They could also eliminate the filibuster and arguably should have done it ages ago. And they have a majority, why are your expectations so low? Demand more from them while you can.
Biden has already done some executive order bullshit to protect abortion rights and I’m saying that he should do more. The 3 branches of government aren’t discrete and there’s lots of stuff that he has the power to do but isn’t doing, like allowing abortions to be done on federal property.
And the supreme court as it is now isn’t constitutional. It was not designed to have judicial supremacy, but has grown over time to effectively become a branch of government in its own right. One that’s completely undemocratic and unaccountable to the American people. We can use the same reasoning that was used to overturn Roe v. Wade to strip the supreme court of its power without amending the constitution at all.
I don’t think it’s fair to pin all the blame for American politics on Trump. Our issues run far deeper than that and he’s more of a symptom than a cause. Also, most people DIDN’T vote for him. He LOST the popular vote, but got to be president anyway because this county is rigged when it comes to voting. How can you say that all people need to do is vote when their votes matter so little?
Btw communists define liberalism as the ideology that supports capitalism. Democrats and Republicans are both liberals.
If the only other real option is the Republican party then 110% yes.
Abort the court!
What an absurdly simplistic view of things. All you’re doing with this “both sides” bullshit is encouraging more people to sit out the process which is how we got here in the first place. Shame on you, do fucking better.
That’s interesting. After I got done sitting out (in 2016, cause fuck Hilary), I voted for Biden (after Bernie dropped out) to get rid of the orange monster, and now I’m advocating for ranked-choice voting and additional parties. I’m more active than ever. Dems are bad. GOP is worse. I want true Left parties. Your rhetoric shames my desire for more options. Shame on you!
lol you twit. Don’t sit out any elections. Hillary would have been literally infinitely better than Trump.
A pet rock would have been better than trump.
Good luck with RCV, I think it’s probably a good idea, we use it in primaries in NYC and it’s done fuckall that’s been good so far.
But get off your moral high horse and pick the thing that does the least harm if you can’t find any positives.
Hey so I am empathetic to your point, but also have some disagreements.
I voted for Biden, and will again. But both sides are bad. One side is definitely worse, but doesn’t change the fact that dems are status quo, pandering, old money pearl clutchers who greatly benefit off of for profit criminal justice, and the suppression of working class. They are not my ally.
I’m really tired of the “perfect is the enemy of good” dnc party line, while we allow good enough to be enemy of better.
Just my thoughts. Also alot of the liberals act like this is sports or some shit. If you browse the conservative communities and the liberal ones, both sides are literally just mirroring eachother, instead of going after the people who put us here in the first place.
I’m a lefty, and american, and the politics here are rigged. I don’t really blame the people who sit out tbh. They’re up against a power, that quite frankly, will take a fair amount of upheaval to take care of. And no one wants to do that. It’s a shitty state of affairs.
I really hope we can get money out of politics, and have viable 3rd parties…but tbh, the dnc would try to stop that, so…they aren’t my true ally, just cause the other side is worse.
Our voting system (first past the post, winner take all) is keeping us in the two party system better than anything else the dnc could do. Let’s see them support ranked choice or similar.
If they are trying to get rid of student loan debt then why were no laws passed for it when they had full control of the congreve and the executive branch? Only am executive order by Biden but no real action. Equal rights for races? Again, I ask you, why under the Democrats have no real laws been passed that have done anything to help that out? Same with gender oppression. Both sides are bad and they are no different. The Democrats and Republicans both are genocidal maniacs.
Do you think a young child in Libya, killed by a drone strike cares if the person who caused them to die claims to support gay rights or not?
Neither side tried to get rid of student loan debt. One side just pretended to try.
They tried metaphysically and still failed.
This is an instance and thread I can get behind.
Ah. How refreshing from the reddit think.
Oh shut the fuck up man if you’re not seeing one hand wash the other on the ruling class shutting that down, you never will. The democrats never intended to pass student loan debt relief, or they wouldn’t have softballed something they KNEW the Supreme Court would shut down.
“The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.” – Julius Nyerere
Exactly and even if the Dems won the student debt relief, it’s such a little and temporary measure that no way addresses the root cause of the issue.
But of course, many people only look at Biden’s website and think that’s all you need to know about politics.
Give ME a break.
Oh, that website that’s ALREADY a whole pack of lies? That only exists on the Internet Archive bc the DNC knew leaving it up would make it easier for the proles to beat on them? That bullshit-assed website?
Both sides are bad though. They are both neoliberals pieces of shit that care infinitely more about their corporate donors than they do about the people. Heck, they only throw scrums to people to pretend that they care.
You are correct that they are both inadequate for facing the crises of our time, but Republicans are choosing all of the worst options. Don’t pretend like an idiot is anywhere near as bad as a literal demon.
That’s an insult to mentally challenged people and demons everywhere!
You are correct that they are both inadequate for facing the crises of our time
The only part of your comment that makes sense and you should have stopped there because everything you said after that is by definition wrong when preceded by this statement.
I repeat, they are both neoliberals pieces of shit that only care about their pockets and we should get rid of both and establish a communist party.
“Stupidity is the same as evil if you judge by the results”
-Margaret Atwood
liberals? On our lemmygrad? It’s more likely than you think!I typically don’t downvote but here you are just factually wrong. “to get rid of student loan debt” would mean to abolish and pass legislation that actually ended all student loan debt in present and future. A feeble attempt at a ‘one-time only’ debt relief with no further policies or plans to eliminate all future educational costs is just a puppet show. I personally would’ve benefited from the debt relief, but would’ve preferred them addressing the rising costs and accessibility of higher education (the root of the problem).
Instead we got a repeal of AA and a move that would’ve benefited loan companies with a side effect that could possibly make getting future loans for under-privileged individuals that much harder (or more dangerous if loan companies decided to give out increasingly worse contracts if they believe the government will step in and pay the horrendous bills). There are better metrics to compare the parties with, “equal rights” is not one of them as they won’t ever exist while class disparity is so rampant.
Equal rights isn’t a new developing issue, here’s a quote from over 60 years ago,
The assistant director of the Office of Economic Opportunity, Hyman Bookbinder, in a frank statement on December 29, 1966, declared that the long-range costs of adequately implementing programs to fight poverty, ignorance and slums will reach one trillion dollars. He was not awed or dismayed by this prospect but instead pointed out that the growth of the gross national product during the same period makes this expenditure comfortably possible. It is, he said, as simple as this: “The poor can stop being poor if the rich are willing to become even richer at a slower rate.” Furthermore, he predicted that unless a “substantial sacrifice is made by the American people,” the nation can expect further deterioration of the cities, increased antagonisms between races and continued disorders in the streets. He asserted that people are not informed enough to give adequate support to anti-poverty programs, and he leveled a share of the blame at the government because it “must do more to get people to understand the size of the problem.” (source, bold by me)
Equal rights “advocates” love to posture and hand-wave historical figures like Dr. King, who rightly pointed out the next step to real equality in his book titled, “Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?”.
One of the central themes of the book’s messages is that of hope. King reflects upon the Civil Rights Movement. He discusses the question of what African-Americans should do with their new freedoms found in laws such as the Voting Rights Act of 1965. He concludes that all Americans must unite in order to fight poverty and create an equality of opportunity. King emphasizes that he is neither a Marxist nor a doctrinaire socialist; he instead advocates for a united social movement that would act within both the Republican and Democratic parties. (synopsis from wiki)
It goes “on and on” like this because it’s all a show, the steps and problems have been laid bare for decades in the U.S. with no meaningful impact for the causes and class disparity is only getting worse. If the democrats in charge actually passed legislation that addressed inequality, then they wouldn’t have anything to dangle in front of the donkey.
edit: If you’re gonna give a downvote (probably who I was replying to), don’t be a coward and at least bring some conversation to the table with your viewpoints. I’m just gonna have to assume your feelings were hurt and that’s the only recourse you have if not.
This gets at it beautifully. The point is that Dems show a good effort but don’t actually create meaningful change. It’s theater.
It’s not “both sides bad”, it’s “they’re all on the same side”. The majority of Amerikans and non-Amerikans realize this. You are shilling for the bourgeoisie against the proletariat.
US politics is one big WWE show and you’ve taken the bait that the democrats actually “tried”. When you realize just how much isn’t being done that could be done, and then look at all the same big donor lobbyist money they take in every year, it starts to make sense why the democrats are always “sooo close” to radical change. It’s deliberate and I’m tired of people thinking it isn’t
This both sides is bad argument is scary because it can cause people to become indifferent. It’s scary for minorities. One side is actively trying to get rid of minorities or marginalize them.
Yeah I get that in the context of the working class they are both bad but that’s not the only way people are categorized. People’s lives are literally being ruined due to the abortion ban and the regression in trans rights and it’s clear one side is pushing for it way more than the other.
Nice copium lib.
One side tried to get rid of student loan debt and the other side said no.
$10,000 or $50,000 is hardly getting rid of student loan debt and there are way more pressing issues like the fact medical debt is still the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the US and mainstream dems are still balking at universal health care.
Maybe do a bit more research next time before you comment.
Yeah, one is trying to disarm poor people, the other isn’t. One is murdering babies, the other isn’t.
This is some real peasant-bullshit
Murdering babies is pretty great though, did you know that humanity has been doing it since ancient Mesopotamia? The ancient Romans used so much silphium as an abortifacient that the plant went extinct.
While the Romans did use a large amount of abortions, it’s incorrect to claim that silphium necessarily went extinct due to its usage in causing them. It was widely used for many different causes besides abortions as well. Just figured I would point that out as we should be specific and ensure our arguments when pointing out these ridiculous fallacies made by liberals, such as the person you responded to
There’s no need to be pedantic for no reason. Whilst it’s true silphium was used for many things (including cooking), we don’t know what percentage of it was used for which aspects, but we do know for certainty that one use was an abortifacient, at huge scale, and that the plant is now extinct.
Ergo, we can surmise that it’s widespread use as an abortifacient most likely contributed to its eventually extinction, along with its other use cases. Although I never said in my message that abortion was the sole use, I merely said that they used it for so many abortions it eventually ended up extinct.
Honestly mate, this comment seemed like a superfluous exercise in pedantic narcissism and reminds me why I need to stay far away from Lemmy.
Eh, not really being pedantic and absolutely not being narcissistic. It’s simply wrong to argue that silphium went extinct because of the rate of abortions in the Roman Empire. It was massively traded and sold throughout the Mediterranean so it’s ahistorical to claim, with full confidence, that it went extinct due to Roman abortions. I suggest giving this article (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcosc.2021.785962/full) a read on it. The claim that the Romans overused in abortions and lead to its extinction simply isn’t proven in anyway. It was most likely over harvested, sure, but as I said, it was used for many different causes. So to call me narcissistic is ridiculous and arguably ought to be applied to you over me.
You’re right, I’m the cunt and not you, clearly.
Yeah
Don’t argue with the tankies. They literally have no moral compass.
We’re the ones with no moral compass; when the democrats oversee slavery in the Department of Corrections(while cutting the police fatter and fatter checks), oversee familial separation and rape in the internment camps at the border(while cutting ICE fatter and fatter checks), and gleefully play merchant of death kicking obscenely-priced contract after obscenely-priced contract to the military-industrial complex. Is the F-35 even capable of flying an operational sortie yet? Or was that just a ten year waste of billions and billions of dollars?
Okay, you fuckin hypocrite, okay. Sure. Posture all you like. None of it even fuckin matters anyway when your party will GLEEFULLY torch the earth sucking every last drop of oil out of it while SWEARING we’re gonna keep under 2C. Can’t wait for all your shit to burn.
Bro your new display name hahaha
if Peggy doesn’t eventually drop a track with this title I’m rioting
because libs like you are sooooo rich in morality, bombing global southern countries to no avail, supporting coups in countries that democratically elected socialists, never actually getting anything done to make peoples’ lives less of a hellhole, being racist against russians and chinese people, supporting literal fascists and even outright allying with fascists (spain).
yeah, you guys have suuuuch a rich moral compass. thank you for demonstrating just how morally rich you people are. y’all should look into the mirror and feel fucking ashamed of yourselves.
As a post I saw here a few days ago said, liberals are full of moral statements and moral judgements but what they lack is moral standings
💯💯💯
This is exactly why liberals don’t get shit done. You are too focused on optics rather than material reality.
Don’t you dronies have more hospitals to bomb under the name of “freedom and democracy”?
Fisk400 goes to Walmart. On the shelves, a product catches his eye “Wow, I can’t believe this AC unit is so cheap! Capitalism is great.”
A Congolese child smiles. His job in a rare earth excavation site made that AC unit possible, and cheap.
The child looks at the sky “I hope you’re happy, white master”, he says before he gets pushed back to work. It is 40C in the mine, he gets no AC. But at least wealthier people get to have it.
Fisk400 buys the cheap AC. “Who cares about climate change anyway, it’s hot outside”. Then, he sees something else a few aisles down: cheap meat. “Wow, that’s a great deal!”. He grabs a few packs of beef.
Somewhere in Argentina, a cattle rancher smiles. “I hope you’re happy, white master” says the man. He has never tasted beef; it’s too expensive for him. But he’s glad that someone else gets to enjoy it, at least.
Fisk never even heard the child and man, drowned by his new shiny purchases and the feeling of accomplishment they give him.
Upon leaving the store, Fisk400 pretends to not see the 75 year old greeter who is forced to stand there all day and say hi. “Oh god, I hope he doesn’t try to talk to me” he thinks as he darts to the exit, his products in hand. He can’t wait to try them out – it’s his god-given right to consume whatever is sold in stores with no further considerations.
Then, cool and cozy, he logs onto Lemmy. “Tankies have no moral compass”, he says matter-of-factly.
The Clintons had literal slaves. Like, the still-alive Clintons. Fuck you, devil.
Why must people always misinterpret this?
No, leftists are not trying to appeal to homophobic white people with this.
They’re reminding you that Democrats will still oppress the working class irrespective of your race, gender, or orientation.
Though don’t kid yourself, the Democratic Party still oppresses black and queer folks when they think they don’t need black and queer votes.
No, leftists are not trying to appeal to homophobic white people with this
Is that how people interpret this? Wew
The brain worms are so deep, they’re tape worms that have made their way up through the host.
There’s a surprising amount of Republicans that talk about the “Uniparty”
Elaborate, please? Not sure I understand what you mean
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/17/steve-bannon-populist-ralph-nader-215839/
It’s a word they use to describe “where the Republicans and Democrats seem to be fusing together.”
Thanks! Well it is only logical, they serve the same interests
Indeed, it’s funny how only the extremes of US politics can recognize that
redditors in this thread, go back
no u
nah
Redditors? Down with them!
I agree. I was a redditor. But now I’m done. Fuck Spez. (Hence why I said “no u”. The redditors that are here don’t want to go back)
You might want to figure out the politics of the community you’ve stumbled into, then.
fuck all these liberals appealing to “dems make things better for the working class”. the working class does not start and end at the amerikkkan border motherfucker.
the Dems being for the working class is an old folk tale that just won’t die
Important point. From the point of view of 95,5% of humanity USA present nearly uniform face regardless of who is in power. And this goes not only for the victims of US but for their vassals too. Barely anyone outside US gives a shit about the US political theatre, even the analysis of the comprador euro think tanks smells with indifference under the flimsy mask of engagement.
Can confirm.
- Post mentions U.S. political parties
- Post mentions BLM, started in the U.S. in response to the U.S. police murdering a U.S. citizen
- Post has a rose emoji, frequently used by leftists in the U.S.
“Man, why would anyone think we’re talking about the U.S.?”
Almost like those things affect people outside of the US
Flattening every conversation about U.S. politics to “you idiot, the U.S. does horrible things to other countries!” is stupid. No one here is arguing with you on that. We have a hundred posts about U.S. crimes abroad, we can talk about what goes on inside the U.S., too.
This was a part on the domestic policy I wrote earlier “ They increased police funding which absolutely is contributing to attacks against African American populations as well as the Democrats ignored and downplay(ed) Covid-19 which has killed so many Americans. The Democrats didn’t mandate vaccines when they had control. They haven’t done anything to control the mass deaths during Covid. They let it run rampant and kill the poor people who couldn’t afford good medical care and the elderly who were at increased risk. The Dems are letting immigrants be killed with barbed wire on the southern boarder. They let many people get sick because of the train crash in East Palestine. They’ve actively worked against union power. They still operate concentration camps for migrants. ”
Did I say Democrats are good?
Yes, you kinda did. You argued that that they were doing something for the working class which to me does kinda sound like that
“Democrats have done a few good things” is not remotely the same as “Democrats are good,” especially when I go out of my way a bunch of times to say Democrats are not good.
You know what critical support is? You know what the CPC line on Stalin is (70% good, 30% bad)? Then you know “they’ve done some things good” is not a blanket endorsement, even if a person has done a whole hell of a lot more good than Democrats ever have.
Not sure what you’re on about. The comment is clearly at liberals in this thread trying to appeal to “benefits” for the “working class” without acknowledging many of these “benefits” come at the cost of the exploited global south. Thinking that the working class struggle starts and ends at one nation’s borders and is not part of an international struggle is braindead at best, fascist at worst. Not sure why I’m explaining this to someone named @MarxMadness.
Thinking that the working class struggle starts and ends at one nation’s borders
No one is saying this. People are seeing the U.S. context and responding to that, then others are ignoring the context to argue with them.
got it, severe case of liberalism. hope it isn’t terminal. not sure how/why you signed up for lemmygrad but stick around maybe you’ll learn some things.
Bullshit like yours makes this place more like reddit, not less.
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Okay, what is with all the Democrat-defending libs in this thread. Reddit-tier logic.
I know! It is making me angry to see people defending the genocide committing criminals
Pop quiz! What’s the best funded terrorist organization in the world!?
The US military.
Three letter state agencies
How were they even admitted to Lemmygrad, I wonder?
They’re mostly from federated instances.
Mostly? I would hope entirely 😰
Unfortunately one of the most vocal defenders in this thread is someone from here 😩
And the name they use is just wild, given these views.
Come on, comrade, let’s be respectful to Comrade Wisconcom
USA are a capitalist dystopia with two parties, one is a rightwing neo-liberal and the other are Nazis as is
Which is which?
Normally Democrats a right wing and Republicans Nazis, but the differences are not clear defined.
They kinda get confused by all this good-party bad-party dynamic too. Hot take: both are bad co-… ehm, parties
Both are wings of the same bird.
The same dying bird
Inshallah
I dunno. I’d say the Nazis are pretty obvious. Dems are center right, but only the fakers appear as Nazis. Then they break and become Indies.
I’d say the Nazis are pretty obvious.
Indeed they are.
A yes, hugging a Jew and using a background on the colors of the American flag. You can’t get any more Nazi than that.
Because we all know that no Jewish person has ever been a fascist, nor has the heckin’ wholesome state of Israel ever engaged in Nazi-like ethnic cleansing.
And just look at these wholesome Ukrainian crusaders against the evil RuZZian imperialists! Just like a marvel movie, amirite?
Hugging a Nazi collaborating far right crook and fellow mass murderer.
Meh, only one wants to take away my rights and the other one wants to give me free healthcare and cancel student debt. Not saying that the one that wants to protect my rights doesn’t have problems, but the 2 parties sure as shit are not the same.
If the Dems wanted those things they would have done those things when they had control
And when would that be? Exactly what year?
They had it during Obama, and they have the presidency now. If they’ll never have enough power to actually do what they always promise, why should we support them anymore? Why should we focus on electoral politics when we can do a lot more good doing mutual aid and staging militant protests on the ground?
And the only power they get they use for evil. To support genocide in Palestine and to limit the gun ownership of the working class
Incredible how that’s not only not what OP of this thread but also somehow totally naïvely buys into Democrat rhetoric about things they’re totally going to do, for sure.
They have done these things.
Have you seen any vote results, to see which party votes for what? I thought not.
Last I checked, dems voted to fund the police, ICE, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, and Raytheon; so I don’t owe them shit as far as recognition goes beyond what it takes me to empty my bladder. Why’m I going to support people who have no interest in rectifying this country’s manifold injustices? Or are you just gonna keep pissing on my leg and telling me it’s raining?
I’m hearing crickets from the cracker gallery…
If they have done those things, why aren’t they in existence?
the other one
wants togive me free healthcare and cancel student debt.More like “runs on obviously popular policy proposals and never carries through because they didn’t care in the first place.” Just like how republicans run on ending wars and bringing down gas prices and end up doing the opposite.
Y’all working class libs need to read State and revolution. And reform or revolution.
state and revolution is actually quite short, but still you’re asking too much of them
if 1 does look into it, ill be happy
Damn, looks like this post attracted all the liberals.
And these ridiculous defenses of the Dems are getting upvotes!
Wisconcom alts working overtime?
Nah, it was me, I’m sorry. I accidentally did an @liberals and pinged every liberal on Lemmy
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Alright this comment section was fun but reddit liberals will never change their minds on anything (if they did they wouldn’t try to make Lemmy into Reddit), so I’m locking this.
PS: if you support the democrats I hope they drone strike your house like they drone striked a Pakistani wedding since you seem to like them so much :)
I do wonder about Democrats though. Part of me thinks the “spoilers” that we see like Lieberman, Sinema, and Manchin are there specifically so Democrats can say, “Aww shucks, we tried folks, guess we can’t get that shiny new thing we promised you. Oh well, we’ll just give up on that idea.” Meanwhile Republicans ramming through the most unpopular shit in the world every chance they can get, whereas Dems don’t seem to try hard enough on issues that seem to have plenty of popular support.
That’s the Designated Villain playbook. As long as there’s just one or two a year, in a field where typically everyone is vetted, double-vetted, and receipt-checked, the pork train trundles on unobstructed.
It’s not that Dems don’t try hard enough. They’re one faction in the organising committee of the ruling class. They’re not trying to work for the working class at all.
Just look at the defense budget every year that easily dwarfs that of other countries (and continues to grow!) It passes with no contest from either party.
Most Democrat politicians are neo-liberals, meaning they are conservatives by all global standards.
We need progressives to take over the Dem party. If you are young and progressive, especially if you are in a shitty dead-end job, run for office. Do it. Local or national.
Sign up, go through the process, announce it for fun on social media. If nothing happens, it was a funny, enlightening experience. There is no upper limit to what can be accomplished if you actually start winning races, though.
No, we need progressives to reject the Dem party. Why would be reform what is evil rather than smashing it and building new?
People who want a 3rd party must not remember the 90s.
Or maybe we don’t support genocidal Zionists?
That’s okay, we just want a Communist Party. The other parties can go.
The third party approach has been proven ineffective. Party take-overs, however, are so effective that I have witnessed it multiple times in my lifetime. The Republicans have been taken over twice in just the past two decades.
Dominating a party that is not one of the two recognized standard parties will only divide votes and disempower us. Encouraging progressives to form a third party is literally a strategy that has been pushed by conservatives several times. It’s important we see the value in taking over the existing juggernaut instead.
Why not take over the republican party rather than or as well as the democrats if these actions are successful. Because so far the democrats are very much hardened against progressives. Look at your AOC and how she’s now indistinguishable from Pelosi an activist who supposedly cared about implementing uhc. Also gonna say look at how Bernie who wanted moderate reform had a massively corrupt primary and the media complex come crashing down on him.
Because you’d have to run on a whole lot of bullshit arguments and by the end of it (if you make it there) you’re just another brainwashed republican. A takeover is not a sudden process it’s slowly boiling the frog and you can’t take over the regressive republicans with a progressive argument set. They would laugh you out of the room. Your platform has to be similar enough that they tolerate you.
You wanna take over the republicans only with “I wanna be against dems”? Try it. But what are you gonna tell the antiabortionists, what are you going to tell the rightwing antigovernment people, what are you going to tell the fascists and nazis and what are you going to tell the racist rural white folk and the bible belt? Are you going to support prolifers suddenly, are you suddenly going to rant against the criminal black population? Congrats, you successfully integrated into the republicans and became invisible.
A takeover is not a sudden process it’s slowly boiling the frog
Let me see, when did “progressives” start turning on the heat? Must have been, oh, 2003 with the Kerry campaign. A good twenty years (at least), with nothing to show for it but lots of corpses in Iraq and Syria and the Ukraine. That’s a slow burn, all right.
You wanna take over the republicans only with “I wanna be against dems”?
All right, I’ll entertain this thought experiment.
But what are you gonna tell the antiabortionists
I’d tell them that while I may not agree in total with their beliefs, anti-abortion sentiment recognizes a fundamental truth, which is that in the US, abortion is promoted as genocidal tool against the working class. And this is something nobody wants to talk about. Working class people have the most abortions, but also tend, statistically, to oppose abortion more. This is because for many working class women, abortion is a matter of economic neccesity; they would have liked to carry a pregnancy to term, but had to abort so that they could continue to pay rent and put food on the table. In other words, the US makes reproduction a hobby for rich white women and their mates – i.e., parasites. Poor and especially poor non-white women are granted the “mercy” of termination. Every working class person has either been in that situation or knows someone who has.
Furthermore, I would say to anti-abortion activists that, unlike liberals and radlibs, I don’t make a fetish of abortion. If they want to set up a system, such as existed in Stalin’s Russia and which exists in present day Nicaragua, where abortion is illegal but extensive social services exist for pregnant women, I would have no particular objection. Socialism is different in different countries, and the flourishing of the working class in their particular material setting is more important than any abstract liberal “right.”
what are you going to tell the rightwing antigovernment people
That their distrust of government, this particular goverment, is more than merited. I too am opposed to the US goverment. We want very different things to come after. But because historical and dialectical materialism are a thing, any actual effective movement against the US government will take place in the context of the ongoing global anti-imperialist struggle – which latter is moving objectively towards socialism.
what are you going to tell the fascists and nazis
Do you mean the Democrats who are arming and funding ideoogical Nazis in Ukraine?
what are you going to tell the racist rural white folk and the bible belt
Lemmygrad rules prevent me from saying just how much this disgusts me. I lived among these people. A lot of them hold stupid views and are not sensitive in their language, but few of them are actual racists; I’ve encountered real, blatant racism far more often among the middle class. What working class are you actually in support of? College-educated champagne socialists with apartments in New York and LA?
And there you have it, my plan to take over the Republican party. It wouldn’t work. But I’d have at least as much success as you “progressives” have ever had in taking over the Democrats.
Your commentary is nonsense and easily dismissed. Nice try, though?
Your upset just illustrates how afraid conservatives are that progressives could take over the Democrats. Thank you for that!
Why would progressives take over a pro-genocide, pro-Zionist group?
Your commentary is nonsense and easily dismissed
Then says nothing to dismiss it or why. Classic lib behavior to simply not engage with what people are saying and just handwave criticisms away.
You cannot fix the Democrat party from the inside. Shit, you cannot fix the USA from the inside. It’s not broken, it’s working perfectly as designed. You can’t vote your way out of this shit. Not if you had 500 years to do it instead of 20.
We had several great progressives running in last years primary and general up near Seattle. All were crushed by incumbents.
Guess folks just like the way things are.
Honestly, once you hit 25 or whatever pick a party and run. Green or libertarian would be easiest. Whatever fits where you live. It gives you a different perspective on elections.
Most Democrat politicians are neo-liberals, meaning they are conservatives by all global standards.
This is the most brain damaged talking point, the Democrats are more left than the vast majority of the globe and Republicans are somewhere in the center. Unless your globe only consists of Canada, Scandinavia, and New Zealand then the Democrats aren’t conservative
My friend, you are in the wrong space. This is a space for people who are actually interested in studying political economy, not bad faith morons.
You’re literally a fucking tankie who supports Russia invading Ukraine. You’re just outing yourself here as a bad faith moron.
You have it flipped, we don’t support NATO’s war of aggression against Russia.
Ukrainian President Yanukovych chose to have closer ties with Russia, which resulted in the Euromaidan coup in 2013-14, which directly caused this war.
I support the people of Ukraine and would like to see peace. The Zelensky government should end the war and cede Russia the land whose people want to return to Russia anyways.
Actually brain damaged
Maybe we should call y’all tankies since y’all keep starting wars everywhere and have no interest in peace
I don’t even know what a lot of the stuff means anymore tbh. I just consider myself economically classically liberal and true centrist on social issues
The people focusing hard on the social far left and far right are distracting people from the fact that the government is not helping out the common person economically.
Frankly I think inflation is kind of here to stay for a while as the US painfully weans itself out of China and a world with a bunch of cheap former Soviet raw material inputs, nevermind a global wheat shortage due to the situation in Ukraine.
The fed really does have to slowly jack up rates to create a bigger buffer for the next hard recession. What this means, I my very limited understanding, is that everything just costs more until supply is consolidated back home and nearby places like Canada, Mexico, and some Central American countries
I don’t even know what a lot of the stuff means anymore tbh. I just consider myself economically classically liberal and true centrist on social issues
The economics understander (as per 7th grade social studies) has entered the chat.
The people focusing hard on the social far left and far right are distracting people from the fact that the government is not helping out the common person economically.
If you’re talking about culture war crap, then sure, I agree. It’s manufactured outrage to distract from class issues.
The fed really does have to slowly jack up rates to create a bigger buffer for the next hard recession.
So you acknowledge the government isn’t helping the working class, and then proceed to support the government not helping? Do you believe in Reaganomics by any chance?
Sanders sure seemed to have the right mindset for most important issues. Would have loved to have seen that alternate reality in 2016.
It just shows how much the system is rigged. Less likeable and less popular Hillary sabotaged his campaign allowing trump to win. Even if Bernie did win and started making positive change I wouldn’t be surprised if he got whacked like JFK.
Unfortunately, I don’t think that Bernie would have been able to make as much of an impact as he wanted. Congress is more responsible for long term changes than the president and Bernie’s ideals are left of most of the Democratic party, so I don’t think they would have been as cooperative as he/we would have liked.
Also, if he was elected, we still would have elected the oldest president ever. I’d rather our government wasn’t a retirement home.
Unless we get enough legislators that share Sanders’ positions, him being president is a waste.
Except that’s not going to happen because the corporate lobbyists that fund most winning campaigns for both parties would never allow it.
This is why Lenin calls liberal democracy the best possible shell for capitalism - a single or small group of people can’t change the system. The power is split up enough that capitalism stays in power, but concentrated enough that capital can control it.
I guess Sanders is like the slightly lesser evil than Clinton. Still don’t like him though
I frankly consider him just another fraudulent sheepdog. He’s tailor-made to round up burgeoning defectors to lasso them back under the Big Tent™ what with the origin story his supporters peddle around about his involvement in the Civil Rights movement.
Agreed. I hate him as well but just think he may have been slightly less evil than the other Dems
At the end of the day, the best thing he can do is give a left alternative in policy proposals and help radicalize people when it doesn’t work because the system is too far gone.
What
Little Debbie really screwed the party with her hard on towards Clinton.
The problems with that party go a lot deeper than one woman.
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen that tweet before, but I can’t remember where
