Touch screens should not be used for any controls needed to operate a car. You can’t use them without taking your eyes off the road.
Technically the only thing you’re allowed to fiddle with, while driving, is what you can operate from the steering wheel. You’re not supposed to fiddle with radio, AC etc. from the center console while driving even if it’s physical buttons.
I know people don’t drive like this, but you’re only allowed to take your hands off the steering wheel for changing gears if driving a manual, otherwise it’s two hands on there at all times…technically
If you read the article this is specifically about things needed to operate the car. Radios and AC or whatever is fine, but car manufacturers are starting to move things actually needed like turn signals into touch controls, and that is not okay.
Wait… what? What???
Yeah, thank Tesla for that one. Because of course it was Tesla.
Seems like a few countries should go over their laws again and prohibit those models from being sold. I don’t know what else would be effective
Tesla is very confident their customers won’t need steering wheel anymore soon, so they went ahead and fuck the steering wheel even though the autopilot can’t work in all circumstances yet.
Yes touch controls, but the comment I replied to mentioned touch screens (so usually the centre console), which only contains thing you don’t really need to manage while driving.
The comment you replied to also specifically said “controls needed to operate a car.”
Suggesting he is confusing the point of the article.
Clarify allowed. Is it actually illegal in the EU to turn on the radio or air conditioning while driving unless the buttons allow you to do it from the steering wheel?
Is it actually illegal in the EU
What’s allowed differs per country.
It differs from country to country, but where I live you can technically be fined for it. You will also fail your drivers test if you do it.
Where I live changing the AC is a task they can ask you while on the test.
If you do it dangerously such as swerving or taking your eyes off the road for extended periods then you can fail the test.
Is “you’re the passenger, you do it, please,” an acceptable response?
“I won’t always be here to passenge for you!”
Of course
What country is that?
I’m more concerned about fog lights, emergency lights, and Window heating, as law usually requires you to be able to use them if conditions require it.
This differ by countries. Here I’m required by law to operate the car as needed to operate it safely.
If the cloud vanish, I am allowed to put sunglasses, if I get vapor on my windshield I am allowed to push the button to remove it and so on.
But you have to do it safely and smartly. If you get in an accident that you would have been able to prevent otherwise, you may be found at fault. Even if you didn’t cause it.
The wording is probably similar here, but very few critical systems are not controllable from the steering wheel.
Wipers, volume, AC, cruise control are all controlled from the steering wheel of modern cars, there’s really not anything you need to do from the centre console to drive safely. If it’s not a critical system, you shouldn’t be using it, physical buttons or not.
I’ve never seen a car where you can adjust the AC from the wheel.
Same, I’ve got an Opel Corsa from 2016, so it’s pretty much brand new.
The only things in the wheel are the speed control, wipers, and default lights.
For everything else required for driving, such as fog lights, emergency lights, front and back Window heating, AC, radio, and of course the shift stick, I’ll need to remove a hand from the wheel.
Luckily for me, the Touchscreen in the middle only handles less important things like navigation and external music sources.
Wait, you don’t even get radio volume, next track etc on the wheel?
Oh right, I do actually have track, volume, and “take call” on the wheel. I think I did use them once, but it just never stuck since they felt awkward to use.
Mine can 🤷♂️ thought that was just about normal these days actually.
How much crap is on your steering wheel? What model of car is this, anyway?
Are you counting the stalks behind the wheel as on the steering wheel?
It’s funny that hazard lights are not included in the list and while they’re not part of a touch screen interface for any car as far as I know, I also know some older cars used to mount that button on top of the steering wheel and I kind of wish we could go back to that.
Yes, you can operate them without letting go of the steering wheel or taking your eyes off the road.
Is there any place left for your hands? I have never, ever seen a car that is built like that.
Its all placed in the left/right spokes of the steering wheel, your hands shouldn’t grab that part…how the hell do you grab it if that stuff is in the way!?
Didn’t Tesla put the wiper settings on the center console
It’s always been a button on the left stalk at the steering wheel, and for quite a while wiper speed has been adjustable from the left scroll-button on the steering wheel as well.
So if my windows fog over I shouldn’t be able to put the defrost on?
You should have configured your AC before you started driving.
I haven’t had windows fog up during a drive spontaneously since forever ago when AC became standard in even cheap vehicles since they dry the air.
I’m driving. There is not a drop of rain in the sky. 2 hours into my drive it starts raining and my windows fog up. Your answer is I should have turned on the defrost before I left. Interesting. Against reason and human nature. But interesting.
What kind of shit-buckets are you people driving that requires you to turn on defrost just because it starts raining!?
I regularly drive in conditions that go from sunny to rainy, or even sunny to snow/slush…that’s pretty much all our weather is where I live. I never have to start defrost mode while driving, ever. I use defrost to defrost and remove ice from the the car before I start driving, the AC keeps everything fine without me adjusting anything no matter the change of conditions while I’m driving.
I generally get cold. I don’t turn on the A/C unless it’s hot out. So generally what happens is, in winter (because of where I live and the amount of daily precipitation) I either leave the climate controls off or I turn them on when I get cold or when my windshield starts to fog over. Not everyone who drives a car drives a nice brand new car with nice modern brand new features.
I don’t know what kind of car you do drive but I will say your experience is probably not the norm and certainly not enough to justify your original statement. You keep using the term A/C which suggests to me that you have climate controls that either automatically adjust to a specific setting when you start the car, or you turn the A/C on every time you get in the car.
How much condensation builds up depends on a lot of factors. Your own body chemistry can add to it. I have a friend who runs hot and every time he gets in the car he cracks the window because if he doesn’t him sitting there will fog that window up.
AC also keeps the car warm you know…and yes, I tell it to keep my car at 21°C and it does just that. Its a Peugeot 308, medium trim level, that’s more than a decade old with +250k km on it, I’m not driving a nice new car at all. My wife’s VW up is exactly the same, also not new and definitely not a “nice” car.
Technically, you know vehicles went 80 years without any steering controls? Buttons on the wheel still isn’t a requirement.
Suspect it depends on where you live, but you’re not wrong.
I think I’ve driven a million kilometres by now, it’s all become so fucking boring and second nature, that you start really being sloppy and distracted. Because you gained so much experience, you start to (unconciously) overestimate your skills.
But the two hands thing really is necessary for if you hit something slippy or need to make an unexpected manoeuvre. The risks of driving are incredibly low, but if shit does hit the fan you’re in for a world of trouble if you’re doing something else.
“allowed”? where do you live with such laws?
Touch screen, Vibration feedback/Color change or not, means that you have to look at what your hand is doing and not on the road.
A physical button means you can keep your eyes on the road and find the right button with easy.
So let’s be honest. At this point, touch screens are chosen by car makers because cost and not design. So essentially, safety is less important than cost for the car makers.
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You can find a large volume knob without taking your eyes off the road or press the next track/station button. We are not asking to configure a new Bluetooth connection while driving.
Yes to the Volume Knob. The next button or even worse the play button, i cant.
Shit interface then. Pressing down on my volume knob pauses it, and I’ve got media controls on the steering wheel as well so I can change tracks with my left thumb keeping both hands on the wheel.
I can as all the buttons are in a row. Same for the AC and heater controls. I pretty much know them by heart so it takes a fraction of a second to glance where to roughly put my finger, and then I can count them out by feel while looking at the road.
That image, while not as bad as a touchscreen, is still a pretty poor design. So many uniform buttons so close still require most people to look. Buttons should be clustered and/or have slighty different shape so you can tell by touch which one you’re about to press…
When you remember where the buttons are they’re fine to navigate. The average keyboard that meant people can type on without looking has less physical feedback (2 small bumps on f and h).
Yeah, once you get used to typing on a keyboard you don’t really need anything else. I got blank caps for my keyboard because I thought it looked neater. Memorising a row of climate options isn’t that bad. If you mix buttons and dials it’s even easier. If the manufacturer thinks of accessibility they’ll also add tactile bumps and such and make it accessible for people who don’t have great vision too.
Channel change and volume control are all physical buttons on my steering wheel. All feel, no look. To me, that’s the best way it can be. The only time that isn’t useful is if I’m out of town and presets don’t work. For those situations, I’m generally streaming ahead of time.
Even in a car I’ve never driven before I can find controls by feeling across the dashboard and pushing at random until I get what I want. With a touch screen you can’t push at random without taking your eyes off the road because there is nothing to feel.
Ideally, a well designed physical button wont need any visual confirmation to push or tell if it’s already toggled
Think old school hazard lights, horn or turn signal stalks with clicking noise. You dont need to look at it at all to toggle them, or confirm button is depressed or activated. You can tell by auditory confirmation or haptically
It amuses me to no end how here on Lemmy, with our concentration of computer nerd types, absolutely HATES touch screens in cars.
But to be fair, I think everybody who reviews cars says they hate them too.
Enjoying tech is one thing, wanting touchscreens everywhere is another. If they were so cool as an input device, all the cool kids would have ditched their mechanical keyboards from their desks.
Maybe the ubiquity of smart phones and all the functionality packed in to them has created a “touch screen == high tech” association in the general public.
But those of us who work with tech rather than just consuming it know the difference between functionality and UI. And we use nice physical interfaces like mouse + kb to interact with various tech all day, even if we use our phones too.
I have a love/hate relationship with phone touch screens. On the one hand it enables us to have controls that would be impossible on a phone, like selecting a point on a map, infinite variety of button controls, etc. On the other hand I can’t tell you how many times I’ve barely brushed the screen by accident and the damn thing is off doing something I didn’t want. “NO! DON’T SHUT OFF THE APP YOU…sigh”
Yep, physical input devices all the way. I literally just upgraded my computer from an Aya neo (touch screen only), to a GPD Win 4 specifically to have more physical inputs. While the Win 4 is also a handheld gaming pc (that is even smaller than the Aya), it has a slide out keyboard and an optical mouse sensor, which has honestly made so much of a difference in being able to use the device. Even just simple things like scrolling through Steam has become easier, never mind situations that involve any sort of typing.
I still love my Aya though, things a tank.
I believe this thinking is what the car companies are banking on too, assuming people see 3-4 screens means it’s more premium when I just screams the opposite to me and those I know.
I would happily buy an iPhone with a physical keyboard under a slider. Much faster and more accurate than using Swype.
It’s not the first time someone comes up with the next great thing that ends up being a user interface disaster. Light pens (w/ link for the younger crowd) come to mind.
Ooof. I remeber using light pens in the 80s at a dumb terminal at my local library to find books. It was painful…
Anyone remembers dumb terminals?
Dumb terminals were extremely prevelant throughout the 80s and into the early-mid 90s. Most people just didn’t know that they were “dumb terminals” and either just thought they were early desktop computers or just heard them referred to as a “terminal”. That same library didn’t update their dumb terminals to actual computers until the mid 90s, but they did however remove the light pen in favor of a keyboard at some point well before then.
This is Lenny. Most users probably do. Good percentage still have a few. A few of us make new ones now and then.
(Technically not dumb ones, though. And completely excluding terminal emulators, which are of course ubiquitous.)
Oh boy, forgot about those. Every school library used one to read a barcode.
You’re probably thinking of something else. You can’t read anything with those
all the cool kids would have ditched their mechanical keyboards
I never thought of it this way, but it make sense.
I never thought it would bother me, until I actually sat in a car where everything was dependent on software the first time.
At first I thought I was just getting old. But it dawned on me that relying on software to fucking roll down the windows or starting the car doesn’t feel too good.
(It was also an extreme jump in technology for me because the last car I drove before that was an old Corsa around the year ~2005.)
To be fair you probably already had software in engine before 2000.
Quite likely even power windows were driven by microcontrollers close to 2000 and used bus messaging between buttons and (non driver window) controller. Mercedes, certainly.
Because they are stupidly dangerous. The reason physical controls work is because you can memorize where they are and touch them without looking. With the touch screen you have to loo EVERY TIME you want to do anything, and that’s an opportunity to not notice something on the road and end up in an accident.
As an IT guy I have a case of “familiarity breeds contempt” when it comes to tech. A lot of it feels unnecessary and overcomplicates things and increases the chance of a failure.
In IT the failures are the reason there is an industry - to some degree - and a feature of systems, so they require large numbers of staff to deploy and maintain. Quite similar to the ICE automobile historically in that regard. So the cars impact is now not just manufacture of parts , local mechanics for repair, but also buildings of software engineers, IT professionals, the cloud engineers, the cloud infrastructure itself and so on. Of course that isn’t necessarily exclusive to EVs, or even to just the auto industry.
Another question why we need all that cloud infrastructure in first place
There are so many things that can go wrong with software where in mission critical situations like cars electricity is the preference
Also tracking comes with that software… nerd types (like me) hate that type of stuff. I think tracking data like that should be banned and is the reason why I won’t buy a new car until that happens
- Safety implications(especially distractions part)
- Economic and owninership implications
- https://xkcd.com/2030/
There is no discernible difference to me between using a builtin touchscreen and a phone. If one is distracted driving, then so should the other. You have to take your eyes off the road to use both, and with physical controls, I might glance it it but most of the operation of them is done by braille. If I pressed a button, I know I pressed a button and I pressed the right one, I don’t have to look back at it to know that. And if I have to follow it up with another action, my hand already knows where that control is relative to the one I just pressed.
The only thing I could live with on touchscreen is music or diagnostics since neither are particularly necessary when you’re in the act of driving.
The difference for me is that my phone is sitting in a holder stuck to the windscreen and looking at it means I’m only slightly looking away from the road, so I will still see movement in my peripheral vision.
By contrast, a large touchscreen in the middle of the dash necessarily means taking my eyes entirely off the road and probably also adjusting to the brightness of the display.
Neither are great, but one is worse than the other
Apart from being dangerous in a car they are also super annoying. I got a Walkman a couple of years ago just so I could pause and skip tracks by pressing a button in my pocket.
I’ve hated touchscreens on everything since forever, and have been shouting into the darkness about how stupid they are in cars since the idea was first introduced. I think most nerds have been doing the same for a long time. Touchscreen are only good for mindless tapping on unimportant things, everything else needs dedicated controls.
Time and place. Do I want everything on a touchscreen at home? More compact and allows more options. Yes.
While I’m trying to fumble for a control when I’m driving a 2000 lb deathtrap at 55 MPH? No.
Agreed, but what the heck car do you drive that’s as light as 2000 pounds??
I am doing car shopping right now, anything that doesnt have physical controls is out of the question no matter how good a deal it is or how cool the car otherwise is
Touch screens are so dumb.
- AC controls, control surface heating heating/cooling (steering wheel, seat etc)
- Volume controls
- Turns, wipers, lights
- Fog lights
Basically everything you might touch during the drive should be physical.
Wait, are there cars with lights/wipers on a touch screen?
Tesla for a very long time had wiper speed on the touch screen. Wipers were supposed to be automatic so they didn’t provide physical controls. But of course auto wipers don’t work all the time and Tesla’s camera detector is particularly bad. They since changed the steering button to bring up touch control.
Tesla routes pretty much everything through the center console. I’m surprised they haven’t tried to route the blinkers through it.
It’s because their wiring system basically just daisy chains everything together with network cable. So it’s a lot less cabling, because they aren’t running six wires for six different systems. But it also means that when one system fails, they all fail in a cascade because everything behind that system in the chain is also affected.
That’s why automakers have traditionally used individual wires for each system, because they have prioritized safety over easier wiring; You don’t want your airbags to fail just because your wipers are having an issue, for instance. So each system is essentially isolated to its own wiring.
Tesla is a good example of people not understanding why things are done a certain way. Elon just saw modern wiring harnesses and went “lol that’s dumb just use network cables.” And on the surface it sounds fine, because it’s less wiring. But it fails to understand why each system is wired independently. And now Teslas have frequent issues with cascading system failures.
It’s because their wiring system basically just daisy chains everything together with network cable
That’s the case in all modern cars beginning in the 90s: Everything that’s not directly mechanical is on the CAN bus. Not every single button individually, but button assemblies (the steering wheel counts as one), there’s no wire going just for the blinkers through the wiring harness it’s connected to the same bus that also carries signals for the brake lights.
Capacitive buttons are simply cheaper than mechanical ones, also, too many automotive designers seem to have no concept of haptics and UX they’re in it for the sleek curves. Or, well, no concept of haptics that isn’t about how satisfying the door closes, they still get that one right.
Tesla: bringing back token ring networks, one shoddily-built car at a time.
Tesla and VW’s idiotic light controls are touch (but not a screen) so you have to take your eyes off the road to turn fog lights on and off. The panel is completely flat and there’s a risk you might turn the main beam off. I mean, the mind boggles.
I know about Aç and volume controls. I hope the rest are not (yet) on touch screens.
I think on the newly revised model 3, Tesla removed the steering column stalks completely.
so no virtual hookers / toy boys?
The main reason why I didn’t want high end packages for our last car was, that I am a cheap bastard. The second reason is, that I think touchscreens in cars are one of the dumbest ideas imaginable.
There are places where touch controls make a lot of sense. Cars is not one of them.
My stove also has touch controls and I’d like a stern word with whomever designed it because it’s the biggest fucking bullshit. I’ve burned myself on those controls, I’ve had the stove turn itself off and refuse to turn on again because of water splashing onto the controls, I’ve had it turn on and glitch out because I’ve cleaned it off with a slightly damp rag.
When I’m driving I absolutely don’t want to dig through non-tactile menus just so I can adjust the climate or turn on my heated seat. Plus, the lack of tactility sucks for blind people. Sure blind people won’t drive, but imagine having to ask the driver to change your AC for you? In the dark of winter with ice on the roads that’s just horribly irresponsible of whomever designed it.
When I’m driving I absolutely don’t want to dig through non-tactile menus just so I can adjust the climate or turn on my heated seat.
Look at Mr. Fancypants over here who can afford a heated seat subscription.
lmao I wish. I’d fucking never support that kind of behaviour. I don’t have a car, but my roomie has a VW Golf with subscriptionless heated seats.
I happen to have a pretty decent inside view into the whole “heated seats” bullshit too. See, I used to work for a company that did a lot of work for Stellantis. You literally can’t fathom just how much administrative bullshit work goes into the customisation of packages and spec sheets. It’s a constantly ongoing thing, thousands of man hours are wasted on it. Things change between markets, and in some markets it affect insurance levels and whatnot, so there’s just so much underlying complexity beyond “oh I want a red car with heated seats.” I’ve legit no idea how it came to be as complicated as it is, but it’s mindfuckingly idiotic. When I left I believe Stellantis was working on replacing the system with their own, but I somehow doubt that it’s an improvement.
They are saving incredible amounts of money by flat out removing options and having them unlocked through a subscription fee. Lots of work is removed just from an administrative view, nevermind the fact that the manufacturing chain gets streamlined and money is saved there too.
On top of that, you’re paying for the seat, it’s not like they’re including features out of the kindness of their hearts, you’re paying for all of the hardware, and then they’re trying to pretend like they’re doing you a favour by letting you “pay for it when you need it.” It’s 100% a scam, and the EU isn’t going to do shit about it because among the perps are some of the most valuable German companies, and they happen to hold the German government by their balls.
The benefit of unified hardware and not having subscriptions can be easily combined: just replace subscriptions with a one-off charge for any feature. Warranty void if enabled not in a dealer shop. I think that would create much less noise than offering a monthly sub. Yes, I know, not great for the quarterly results, but then - so much less hate from your customers. And yes, touch screens in a car should wait until there is a full, proper self-driving capability in place.
The fact that a heated seat subscription idea didn’t completely end the consumer market for the manufacturers attempting it shows us that too few people are awake to impact their income. The manufacturer will do whatever they want, including recording every possible thing they are able to inside the vehicle.
I am afraid you are right. Am driving a non-connected old car, and intend to buy a new one without that crap.
I do struggle to understand why the general population is so untroubled with this constant privacy breaching creep (a bit less worried with subs as when it comes to monies, people are a bit more alert). I have a lot of smart friends who click the “agree to everything you want from me” button everywhere, and they see no issue with it.
Sure, but you’d still be ripping people off. If your car has an option to unlock heated seats through microtransactions, you’ve already paid for heated seats.
The definition of rip off may vary. Still, that would be a saner marketing approach, in my view.
As I understand, all the businesses are trying to replicate the IT-born business model of subscription for features. It should not be a thing in the real world, and I hope these managers come to sense, the sooner the better.
The way I see it, if I have to pay extra for a feature I’ve paid for, then it’s a rip-off. Like if I booked a hotel and then got told that I need to pay extra to have a bed, I’d be pretty miffed.
Say you have options to have regular seats or heated seats, as well as leather or fabric seats, that’s essentially four options. By making all seats heated and locking the usage via software, you’ve cut the amount of options in half. That reduces complexity during assembly and ends up cutting costs. You’re still going to charge the customer at least the full price of the seat, though. It’s not like you’re charging for
seat - heatinghoping that the difference would be covered by those that actually choose to subscribe.There’s also the question of; what happens 10-15 years from now? Nintendo closed the store on the 3DS in March 2023. The console was released in February 2011. At what point will you no longer be able to use your heated seats because the manufacturer has stopped updating the API for your car, and you’re no longer able to pay for it? How will that affect resell value?
I hate this sort of practise in smartphones and software. A car is order of magnitudes more expensive than a mobile game. If they want to apply mobile game tactics to vehicles, then the cost of the car should be comparable to a mobile game as well.
just replace subscriptions with a one-off charge for any feature. Warranty void if enabled not in a dealer shop.
The car owner has every right to use every hardware capability physically present in the car, “enabled” or not. Manufacturers have no right to deny warranty claims based on owner modification, unless they can prove that said modification caused the failure.
“The intent is to provide drivers with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different heated seat configurations.”
I think touch controls make sense in cars, but only for navigation and advanced settings, like for how long the headlights should stay on when you leave the car, should the mirrors fold when you lock the car, stuff like that.
Everything else should have a button.
Absolutely, I agree with this. Controls one might want to operate while driving, or that have frequent usage should be available as tactile buttons/switches/dials/what have you. If it’s something I’m like to set once or twice a year, or in my lifetime, it might as well be in a software menu somewhere.
Touch controls on induction stoves do make some sense though. It simplified cleaning a lot when all you have to clean is a single large pane of glass
I think there are ways you can execute touch controls well on induction stoves, but in our case I just don’t agree and overall I prefer actual tactile controls.
The controls lack tactility, so if you’re blind you have no way of operating it. It’s also so stupidly set up, if I want to turn the top-left plate on to max, I have to hold the power button, then select the plate, then press the minus button twice, then press the plus button once, alternatively just press the plus button 9 times. The child lock has a tendency to automatically activate after I wipe it down, so if that’s engaged I have to disengage that first. Now if I were blind or visually impaired, it would be a nightmare to operate.
Before I got somewhat used to this stove I’d keep moving hot pots onto the controls. This is obviously a user error, but it makes sense because I’ve spent the last 20 years cooking on electric stoves. Because of the inertia in hot plates, if something is too warm you move it off the plate, usually towards you or to the side. This stove has a fairly small cooking area, so if I have something cooking on the other plate, I’ll drag the pot towards me. Since it’s induction I don’t actually need to do this, but try to change a habit you’ve gotten used to by doing more or less daily for almost 20 years - it takes time.
As a result the stove would turn off, or glitch out because it doesn’t handle multiple inputs, and then the controls would be too hot to touch.
None of these things would be an issue if instead of having nine buttons it had four knobs. Also I keep calling them buttons, but they’re completely flat, non-tactile surfaces.
Agreed for induction, but I’d mich rather use one or two minutes more cleaning the knobs than having to almost cook my finger on this 60-90 degree Celcius hot conventional stove’s touch surface to change the plate from step 7 to 4 for 10 FUKKEN SECONDS! OUCH!
Having to restart it 2-3 times during cooking because it got confused (pan moved slightly to the side) is also rather annoying.
Edit & tl:dr: Touch works decent on induction, just please keep it far away from any conventional stoves.
It simplified cleaning a lot when all you have to clean is a single large pane of glass
Alternatively, a combined oven+stove unit where the knobs are on the front panel and can be pushed in when not in use. That way you have a single pane of glass and knobs that aren’t an annoyance when cleaning.
Man I HATE touch controls, especially on stoves. Any time I use them I bitch and moan chronically.
This is an accurate description of me.
Personally I think that the following car functions should be mandatory physical controls - wipers, indicators, hazards, side/headlights, door locks, defogger / defroster, electronic parking brake. forward/reverse/neutral/park. And they should be controls that have fixed position in the car (i.e. not on the wheel) with positive and negative feedback.
And fuck Tesla or any other manufacturer that wants to cheap out on a couple of bucks by removing them. Removing physical controls has obvious safety implications to drivers who are distracted trying to find icons on a tablet.
Don’t forget heating and cooling too. There’s a ton of things that are necessary to operate while the vehicle is in motion and should never be delegated to a touchscreen.
I’m fine with touchscreens for in car entertainment for the back seats and maybe a passenger one with the appropriate shutter technology to block the driver’s view. None of those things are important for vehicle safety… but if there is a speaker that the passengers can control there needs to be a mute button for the driver to turn that shit off too :)
I assume steering too, right?
i.e. a “If you brick your car’s firmware, at least you can keep driving without unreasonable levels of difficulty or distraction” situation.
If you brick your car’s firmware, at least you can keep driving without unreasonable levels of difficulty or distraction
That’s impossible for a large portion of safety critical systems. Engines don’t run without a controller, they literally control the fuel injection valves (and have done so for decades). Brake systems have physical failsafes for when the electronics die (I.e. basic hydraulics without the booster), but you should not be able to move a vehicle without a working brake system after it stopped.
The shitton of software running modern cars is there for good reason (at least large chunks of it), lots of which is safety, especially in the drivetrain.
It’s completely different for infotainment, which I agree the vehicle should be able to function without (although the dashboard must work)
Do the ECU and the cabin equipment run on the same computer? Can you tune the vehicle from the driver’s seat?
Any controls that aren’t multimedia need to be separate from the infotainment system.
I want to be able to change the radio unit without losing my air conditioner. I don’t want a cracked touchscreen to prevent me from turning on traction control.
Radio???
I don’t really think that physical buttons on the dashboard are any less distracting. I still have take my eyes off the road to make sure I press the correct button. At least I can press right scroll wheel and give voice commands.
You can just feel your way around. If all the buttons have the same shape, sure, you can’t, but they don’t have the same shape. For example, if one button has a little raised nub, like the F key in keyboards, you know immediately which button your finger is on.
This. I don’t need braille to know which button, it becomes muscle memory. A touch screen UI changes dynamically, so having muscle memory like for a physical momentary switch is impossible. And the tactile feedback is important too.
You don’t have to take your eyes off the road to operate a control. You might need to learn where some are in a new car, but then you instinctively reach for and operate the ones you use all the time. It’s muscle memory.
This is not the case in a touch screen where controls may or may not be visible at any given time and you have no chance of operating them unless you physically look at the screen to control where you touch it. Maybe this arrangement is fine for some non-critical functions, but it absolutely isn’t for critical ones.
What is worse is that cars from Tesla are even getting rid of indicator stalks which is fantasically dangerous. Maybe it’s not a big deal in the US where roundabouts are uncommon but they are all over the place in Europe and the rest of the world and lack of indicators will cause crashes and fatalities. Just so Elon Musk could save a few bucks on a stalk. And if that results in a lower EuroNCAP score then boohoo for him. I can imagine the raging and legal threats that he’ll engage in if that happens.
I’d rather have a keyboard mounted on the steering wheel and operate the car with bash aliases.
Automotive vim when?
emacs auto
alias emacs=/usr/bin/vimno.
evil mode
BuT tHeRe Is VoIcE cOnTrOl!!!
Yes but if I have two friends on board that are talking I won’t say
“SILENCE EVERYONE! I WILL NOW ATTEMPT TO ENTER THE NAVIGATIOM DESTINATION THREE TIMES WHICH WILL ALL FAIL!”
And zooming the map on skodas with touch screens is just THE WORST.
To be honest zooming isn’t great on my 2010 yeti with a physical zoom wheel either.
These systems are always crap in cars because compared to modern phones they feel unbelievably slow; my yeti is now 14 years old but my phone is 2 years old so it’s a pretty unfair comparison!
Well at some point I expect zooming a map to work without lag. I assumed we were talking about new cars here.
Our other car is a 9 year old Mercedes and physical zoom is super nice there.
The actual issue on the Skoda is not that it doesn’t zoom smoothly but that it stops following your car when you zoom. It instead stayes fixed.
I don’t disagree, just pointing out a general issue with car nav systems
I understand. Android auto is quite nice. I don’t like that the assistant can’t be changed to another app. There should be an open protocol which allows any device to take over the cars multimedia systems.
I used to think virtual automation and touchscreens were the coolest thing, until I started to do work designing an industrial process and considering safety. And ever since, I am completely in favor of physical switches and devices instead of virtual. So much more secure.
Honestly, I thought I would love touch controls in my car. But I drive a LOT for work and what I’ve learned is there are very few things as frustrating as being on a bumpy road trying to press a touch screen button and hitting every other button on the screen in the process.
Yeah there’s that too. It really isn’t practical. At the very least you want some sort of tactile feedback so you have confirmation “yes I pressed the thing”
Tesla’s on-wheel turn signal buttons are criminally bad.
So is their “swipe up or down to go forwards or backwards”, ON THE SCREEN.
So is a missing shift stick, or the touch shift screen on the final roof.
Hyundai’s one-pedal mode that can bring a car to a complete stop without lighting the brake lights is even worse.
Great news. I wish they would also deduct stars if the heating/cooling controls are not physical too.
So one time someone broke into my car and tried to crowbar the radio out. They destroyed the whole dashboard, but failed to get the radio (it was nice of them to still take the face tho).
What this resulted in all of the controls hanging out by their wires. Everything still worked, I just had to sift through the exposed wires, pick up the proper control and twist the dial or push the button. It was ridiculous but still miles better than touch screen for these things.
What kind of car? Sounds like good build quality in their wiring, lol.
99 honda Civic. I loved that car. Abused the hell out of it because I was young and dumb, barely took care of it, and it still made it to 225k miles. Probably would have lasted longer but I got into a bad accident with it and it started leaking oil after that.
Ah, no wonder.
I had a 99 accord that I really liked. Manual transmission too. But it surprised me by blowing up its freaking engine not too far past 100k miles. (When my certified used warranty ran out, naturally) It blew out a cylinder valve hours from home, so I got back with a 3-cylinder that would stall if I let it idle. Just kept a foot on the gas at red lights. 😆
For more thinking about this issue for software/hardware makers a good read is “Enchanted Objects” by David Rose.
iirc. He says we’re in a ‘Glass Rectangle’ phase, where makers are stuck on screens, Like Xhibit in Pimp my ride - we put 22 screens in your car. They know how to “screen” and they use it the solution to all problems. It’s like an infatuation, where you just can’t see another way. There are entire sciences of Human Machine Interaction that explain why these designs are messed up, and the designers are aware, and have chosen otherwise.
2016 Actor Antov Yelkin who played Checkov is killed by his 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee, pinning him to his mailbox and fence. Because it didn’t have a gearshift. It has a thing that looks like a shift but is a joystick.
I think what happened to Yelchin is a separate issue. The joystick was still a physical object that gave tactile feedback. The design was fine, but GM flushed the mouse on the implementation.
Where we have a bigger problem is when common vehicle controls are just an image on a screen, and a driver has to take their eyes off the road to do something simple like change the A/C temperature or skip a song track.
Yes, this is a bit outside the screen problem, but it is pertinent to car UI. Buttons/Joysticks give a form of tactile feedback, they don’t give positional feedback. Take a button. Pushing it does give tactile feedback (she feels that she pushed the button), but it’s quite possible that the button wasn’t pushed enough or long enough to register the push, same with joystick up/down. Flipping a switch for example is different. The position changes, and latches. She is certain that her intentions (turn on the light) were either carried out or not, because the switch with either be in position one or two. Buttons/joysticks require a second evaluation, to check that the button knows it was pushed. It’s a subtle difference, but serious. Sliding the gearshift all the way forward, we just know it’s done. Likewise pulling up on the handle, hearing the ratchet sound, I know that my parking brake is on.
Antov Yelkin who played Checkov
You mean Anton Yelchin who played Chekov?
most definitely that. not the other. The guy who played Pavel Checkov, the Enterprise’s navigator. Not the noted author born in 1860.
I only have old vehicles and I’m actually shocked that these things are operated via touchscreen on modern cars - I thought they were just for unnecessary infotainment stuff…
To change the temperature of the air, seats, or clear windows, I have to look down and across, away completely from the road, and watch my fingers press “buttons”. Or worse, use menus!
At some point it feels like I’ll crash because I can’t see through the fogged up window, or I’ll crash because I was looking at touch screen instead of road.
Not crashed yet, but lot swerves.
This is insane. Why is it illegal to use a phone while driving (here in the UK at least) but not that? They are basically the same thing!
Ford? If so I feel your pain. The controls for the ventilation in their infotainment system are godawful. The time between input and output is so long that you have to look down to hit the “button” to bring up the ventilation menu, look back to the road while it takes 2 literal seconds for the menu to pop up, then look back down to the diagram of the vents to decide what you want blowing or not blowing, hit the right “buttons” and then wait for the thing to respond and do what you asked. Meanwhile you’ve gone 1/4 mile at highway speeds with your eyes barely on the road.
What was wrong with a dial with all the possible vent combinations? I want the defroster on and I want hot air on my feet? That’s at 7 o’clock. Just blast my face? 12 noon. It was simple, it worked. It did not require looking away from the road once you were familiar with it.
It is a Ford. I just want buttons. We also have a Citroen eBerlingo and it more primitive (cheaper) but the upside of that is old school buttons.
If their cheap-asses had actually done something other than cheapest possible implementation for the majority of input devices it might have been ok. Having driven several cars with touch input for various features the complaints I have are all the same:
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too many menus with unintuitive directories that put what should be top-level systems several layers deep. IOW, I want to turn on the AC. I shouldn’t have to climb out of the Sirius menu then down 2-3 layers to turn on the AC and choose the ventilation configuration and temperature.
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Horrible UI design. Things that need to be tapped/touched are either too small and/or too close together. You shouldn’t need to divert your attention to focus on a 1/4” square “OK” touch element when this should have a touch area minimum of a square inch so you can hit it without too much concentration. UI’s are too cluttered.
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closely related to #2 - awful sensitivity of the screen. Small buttons that are hard to accurately hit are worsened by touch screens that don’t register input. Now you’re trying to accurately hit a patch of screen that is refusing to accept the tap, so now you’re further distracted and frustrated trying to get you music stream to play or whatever.
I don’t hate touchscreens, they can be useful, but manufacturers have implemented them at the expense of actually driving the car.
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