European here.
This seems to mainly only be an issue in the US. Socialism = Communism = Enemy
If at all anything, the opposite seems to be the case here. We’re looking at the US as a “this is how bad it will get if we let go” example
In addition: government programs that help everyone = helping black people = no.
I think this is the fundamental reason why the US never went to public/universal anything, be it healthcare, education, whatever.
Yep. We should have told the colonies of Georgia and Carolina to fuck off, and we’ll get around to conquering them, after we kicked The King out of the other 11 colonies.
If one person had voted differently during The Continental Congress, we would have started abolishing slavery
Fascinating history.
Yeah y’all really don’t want to end up like us. We’re not the land of the free. The streets are most definitely not paved with gold. We’re just a giant ponzi scheme.
It’s actually insane how many of our institutions are actually based on pyramid schemes. No wonder we all use it as the symbol for conspiracy because it is a huge portion of how anything runs in the US. Cover the costs by convincing more people to join in at a less beneficial or profitable step down the pyramid and hope someone else will be coming behind you for you to take from as well.
I have a pothole literally 2 feet wide and at least 10 inches deep on my street that our city just can’t find the funds to fix…
Start a social media account for pics of the pothole. Keep tagging city officials in it. Call or email someone every time you’re reminded that the pothole exists so they will be too. Make the city rue the day they gave Cave Johnson lem… Potholes.
If they won’t do it some helpful citizen might end up reading something like https://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Pothole
Paved with gold? Lucky they’re paved at all this time of year.
the opposite seems to be the case here
Cries in Lindner
Europe uses the word socialism differently. It’s a difference in how the words are used and the time they are used. If we consider socialism shared responsibility, we have it America in many ways but we are hesitant to expand it. That’s because of our fear of large government power.
If we me socialism as the workers owning the means of production. Well no country does that. Normally it’s the government owning everything and the workers being abused such as the Soviet Union or Cuba. That’s the large governments Americans dislike.
Yeah, socialism isn’t taxing the rich, it is or at least have always led to brutal dictatorships because the real one is just communism with extra steps.
Social-democracy on the other hand is wonder for the people (see Sweden etc) in real life.
I’m a conservative and read a wonderful article on why conservatives should be leading the charge to a social democracy like Sweden. It really changed my views on why we should be skippering certain endeavors. Just neither party here has really embraced the basic concept.
An example was national health care allowed people to be more entrepreneurial since that is a large risk to not have insurance here.
That’s not being conservative my man.
That’s not being conservative my man.
Then you don’t understand conservatism.
🍿
Well, French president and several of its ministers are saying that socialist left, or radical left, is extremist. So no, it’s not an America problem. It’s very much a Europe problem too.
Socialism = Communism = Enemy*
*Unless Russia 🤑
Russia isn’t socialist anymore. It’s a fascist capitalist hellscape, which is why Republicans like it
The USSR collapsed several decades ago. Russia now is fascist, over a Capitalist economy.
I think you missed the point
As a european it’s always been fucking WERID how americans panic and reach for their guns at the mention of socialism.
I mean
There was this whole thing called the Soviet Union then there was like a missile crisis
And there was like a group that called themselves National Socialists and they did a genocide and tried to take over a bunch of land by force
We also had to fight a bunch of talking trees that dug tunnels because military industrial complex and heroin
It’s definitely many layers of propaganda but as an American I definitely understand WHERE it comes from, I understand why most people here flinch at the word.
You also gotta understand we had multiple generations in a row huffing lead gasoline so while younger millennials aren’t impacted as bad, MOST Americans are legitimately lead brained.
It wasn’t just leaded gasoline. I was busy getting hot boxed with cigarettes in my grandparent’s leaded gasoline car before burning some asbestos, plastic cutlery, and batteries in the living room fireplace.
Forget no seatbelts or bicycle helmets. Our chemical exposure would probably send a younger person without a built up tolerance into instant seizure.
I also remember crimping down lead shot sinkers on my fishing line with my teeth. Good times. Good times indeed.
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As an American I wish it was easier to pack up and move to Europe :(
This is a genuine question from a European, what does make it difficult to move here?
Several things keep Americans from moving to Europe.
First, immigration laws of the country one is moving to. If one is not able to get a passport from an EU or EEA county based on ancestry, you basically need to be sponsored for a work visa by a company in the country you want to move to, which can be quite difficult. And even then, you have to be employed in that country for long enough to qualify for permanent residency, then citizenship, which can take up to 7 or 8 years in some countries.
If one is lucky enough to have parents or grandparents who emigrated to the US from a European country and can claim citizenship based on that, it’s a lot of work to get all of the paperwork together and verified and accepted by that government’s consulate (at least it is for Germany, but German bureaucracy is … special).
Second, the US is one of the only countries in the world that double taxes its citizens. If someone was born in the United States, they will have to file taxes reporting income to the US government every single year until they die, and PAY taxes to the US government on any income over a certain amount every year until they die, regardless of the source of that income, and regardless of the fact that taxes on the same income need to be paid to the host country.
While I have zero respect for the snivelling shitgibbon name Boris Johnson, he was born in New York and had to renounce his US citizenship to escape the IRS. You also have to PAY the US government $2350 (in cash) for the privilege of giving up your citizenship, which is also…unique.
Sometimes there are tax treaties that can take most of the sting out of the double taxation issue (Norway’s is decent for US citizens), but it depends on the country.
Finally, it just never occurs to many Americans that leaving is even a possibility.
Money for the most part for a lot of people.
Passports are $400+ USD, then there are the plane tickets, which are hundreds of dollars. Then to top it off you need to have room and board while looking for a job and someplace to live.
Another thing I’ve heard is fear of leaving the known and family.
Do Americans not usually have passports? I just assumed most people had one (I’m not American though).
No. Most don’t leave the US, so there isn’t a need. Plus, until recently, Canada and Mexico only needed an ID card like a drivers license.
Pretty much the only time we need passports is if we travel outside the U.S. and territories. Those that take cruises or cross borders to other countries would, but generally speaking a majority of Americans don’t have passports.
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Maybe I just suck at the research, but from what I can tell getting a permanent residence visa is not easy for Americans. If I’m wrong I would absolutely love to know.
France seems to be relatively easy to gain permanent residence and even citizenship, but they do expect you to learn fluent French. Most of the EU requires birthright citizenship. A few will grant it to the decedents of immigrants, like Ireland, though they only do it for two generations out.
Eh for me it’s a lot of things. For one just roots, family and friends. Then next is work, I’d have to find a new job over there (doubtful my current one would let me work abroad), and I’d need to see if visas would let me work over there, and for how long. I would probably make less over there, but cost of living is lower too, so I’d have to do finances. Most countries don’t let you own property unless you’re a citizen, and I wouldn’t be, so I’d have to rent for a while. Path to citizenship would then be difficult, and I would have to pay taxes for both countries. Then just pure logistics of what do I do with everything here, would have to basically start all over. It’d be much easier if I was in my early 20s, but I’m nearing 40 which makes it much more difficult.
Money mostly.
There is usually something like needing $250K in the bank to be considered for permanent residency. Then the paperwork costs money, so most Americans will have to wait until they get refugee status.
In all fairness, we panic and reach for our guns at the mention of just about anything. Right this very moment, I’m pooping on company time, scared out of my wits, a nine millimeter at the ready atop my presently ankle adorning boxers.
WAS THAT THE DOORBELL!!!
By “socialism”, are we talking:
A. Worker-controlled economic system, or
B. What American liberals think is socialism, which is just a capitalist system with welfare.
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A.
Either.
Aka socdem vs demsoc
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
Social democracy is a political, social, and economic philosophy within socialism[1]
[1] Eatwell & Wright 1999, pp. 80–103; Newman 2005, p. 5; Heywood 2007, pp. 101, 134–136, 139; Ypi 2018; Watson 2019.
1 ↩︎
Today I learned that Socialism is when you do Capitalism in a nice way.
Oh wait, no I didn’t, because Capitalism and Socialism are completely different modes of Production.
No, they’re not.
They’re economic systems, not modes of production.
Today, you’re still refusing to accept reality.
It’s right there before your eyes. You’re too brainwashed to see it.
In your own words, they are economic systems. What do you call a system built on Capitalism, but with a slightly larger welfare net? Socialism? No, you call it Capitalism.
You’re calling me brainwashed for correctly pointing out that Capitalism is Capitalism, even if you dress it up nicely?
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Believe me, I’m not conflating Capitalism with markets. Capitalism is a specific form of market economy by which individual Capitalists buy and sell Means of Production, or Capital, by which they can pay Workers to use and create commodities via wage labor.
Examples of Socialist market economies include Market Socialism, a form of Socialism built on competing worker-owned co-operatives.
Examples of Socialist Market Economies do not include Capitalist Social Democracies, because the primary defining feature of Social Democracies is Capitalism with generous social safety nets, a kind of “human-centric” Capitalism.
You on the other hand are making the misconception that Socialism is simply when the government does stuff. You’re wrong, of course, as countless people here have pointed put.
Capitalism with regulation is still Capitalism. Socialism is when Workers share ownership of the Means of Production, simple as.
In practice, social democracy takes a form of socially managed welfare capitalism
OP is definitely in camp B…
Why? OP clearly states “worker controlled systems,” it’s not difficult to see what they’re talking about.
Neolibs are very easy to spot, comrade.
I agree, but nothing in this post is calling for deregulation and privatization, rather the opposite.
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Nope.
Socialism is Worker Ownership of the Means of Production.
The Nordic Countries are in fact Social Democracies, not Socialist Democracies. Social Democracy is Capitalist in nature.
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Your greatest source is misinterpreting a line in Wikipedia? You think that means your Capitalism is actually Socialism despite relying on Capitalism, because the welfare net is larger? Lmao
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Your data is Wikipedia. That’s it. Read perhaps any Socialist literature and you’re immediately debunked.
If Social Democracy was truly under Socialism, then the Workers of your country would own the Means of Production.
A more accurate reading of what you are claiming is that Social Democracy takes influence from Marxism while rejecting the conclusions and thus the necessity for Socialism, instead relying on Capitalism.
Tell me, plainly, how you can have Socialism with Capitalists and Capitalism. Or, does Nestlé not exist in the Nordic Countries?
“yOuR dAtA iS wIkIPeDiA”
No, it isn’t.
Here’s my source: Eatwell & Wright 1999, pp. 80–103; Newman 2005, p. 5; Heywood 2007, pp. 101, 134–136, 139; Ypi 2018; Watson 2019.
Want to go and read those books? No? I’m schocked.
The information from those books is listed on Wikipedia, yes. Are you so childish that you’ll now pretend “you can’t find real information on wikipedia”?
Weirdly enough, you don’t have ANY sources for the things you pull out of your arse. Almost as if you didn’t know what you were talking about and didn’t HAVE any sources for your faulty claims, because like I said, you’ve conflated market economies and capitalism and think socialism equals communism, because you don’t understand communism is just one form of socialism.
“How can you have socialism with capitalism”
Since I’ve already explained you keep conflating “capitalism” with “market economies”, the question is then translated into “tell me, plainly, how can you have socialism and market economies”, for which the answer is really quite simple for anyone literate. However, since you also conflate “socialism” with “communism”, then the question becomes “how can you have communism with market economies”, to which the answer is “you can’t, since communism relies on planned economies instead of market economies”.
That’s where your confusion comes from.
Due to our good regulations because of our social demoractic, well governed economies, capitalist companies can participate, but they can’t do the shenanigans they can do in less regulated markets. The degree of regulation is the question. Even the US doesn’t have “pure” capitalism. Things like the antitrust laws are by definition socialist policies, but this doesn’t mean the US is socialist in any way. It just means even they understand the necessity of regulation over “pure” capitalism, because “pure” capitalism is unsustainable as it leads to monopolies which then kill the economy.
This is why for example I can actually drink my tapwater and eat raw eggs that don’t even have to be refrigerated. This is why the quality of all products here is higher, and why it’s more expensive for companies like Nestle to try their bullshit here, which is why they mostly aim for developing countries. To avoid the regulation that comes with properly functioning social democracy.
There are specific definitions and I’m sticking to them. If your economy has capitalists controlling companies with workers trading their labor for a wage underneath them, then it is capitalist, full stop.
Unless your economy is full of co-ops or something. I don’t know the common typical structure for a nordic company.
You haven’t even read a single “basic definition” my man.
Here’s one :
Socialism
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages
socialism
noun a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned OR REGULATED by the community as a whole.
If your economy has capitalists controlling companies with workers trading their labor for a wage underneath them, then it is capitalist, full stop.
Youre refusing (or unable, lol) to understand that “capitalism” does not equal market economies.
Selling things doesn’t mean capitalism. Trading goods doesn’t mean capitalism. Owning a company doesn’t mean capitalism. Having companies with workers doesn’t mean capitalism.
Jesus fucking God I’m tired of explaining concepts that my 8 year old niece could google and learn by her self in five minutes
“unless you have a planned economy you’re not socialist”
Yeah, exactly the point I’m making. Brainwashed morons think socialism means full planked economy, when it’s no such thing.
Fucking spend 2 min on Google, is it so much to ask?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism
Fucking perpetuating shitty 70’s red scare propaganda mf sides are hurting.
I said nothing about a planned economy, now you’re putting words in my mouth.
Ever hear of libertarian socialism?
Edit: I get the feeling we are talking about the same thing using different terms…
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If you’re going to continue to insult me and gaslight me, we are done here. Have a good day.
How am I “gaslighting” you?
You literally said “Unless your economy is full of co-ops or something [it’s not socialist]”.
You’re referring to the collectives of the Soviet union. A distinct feature of PLANNED ECONOMIES.
“I never anything about a planned economy.”
Yes, you did. And now you’re pretending you didn’t. Like pretending reality isn’t what it actually is. Trying to convince me something that happened didn’t happen. Is there a word for behaving like that…?
How is fascism in your country btw? Seems that capitalism has it fine to me.
“Most powerful empire the world has ever known”
Lol Americans
The Romans conquered the known world with pointy sticks and diplomacy.
The US hasn’t been on the winning side since ww2 despite having nukes and spyplanes.
Even the British Empire spanned the globe, and all they had was cannons, rum, and syphilis.
Yeah they may not incorporate other countries like previous empires, but their sphere of influence is undeniable unfortunately.
Rome wasn’t the most powerful empire, merely the third longest lasting; the Assyrians and Egyptians had a run that puts Rome to shame, and the Khans wielded far more power than any individual emperor.
The US is just the only world power left in modern time that could deploy anywhere within 24 hrs with more than just a strike force (and they can do so far far harder than any previous “empire”). The US “empire” is based on deployment potential, banking, and diplomacy. Nukes are just the key required to gain entry to the table so you don’t get wiped at deployment.
Bricks is literally the alliance trying to match US power and still hasn’t. This is mostly a barrier to entry problem rather than personal power, but it does stand that no previous empire could match the modern US in millitary, finance, or diplomacy.
But hey give it 50 years we are doing our best to shit on two of those.
But if they fought I’d bet against the pointy stick guys and the syphilis guys.
James Cameron’s avatar be like
Are you claiming that Victorian England could take modern America in a fight?
A few trolls can take America by installing a puppet red head president who will then dismantle the country in a few years time.
We prefer you call him The Great Pumpkin, thank you.
See also
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Adolf Twitler
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Benedict Donald
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Cheeto Benito
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Cheeto In Chief
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Cinnamon Hitler
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Comrade Cheetolino
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Con-Hair
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Despot Cheeto
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Diaper Don
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Draft Dodger Don’
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Fanta Menace
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Hair Furher
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King Mierdas
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The Manchildian Candidate
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Mango Mussolini
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Orange Julius Caesar
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President Gold Man Sucks
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Prima Donald
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Pumpkin Pinochet
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Tangerine Toddler
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Tangerine Tyrant
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Trumplethinskin
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Tweeto Toupee’to
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The White Pride Pipe
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So are you trying to make him say what he didn’t say because your butthurt ?
So you agree America is more powerful than the British Empire?
In military power, yes. Greatest empire ever, no.
One, no empire is “great,” they all suck donkey dick, that’s the definition of an empire, two, the meme specifically states “most powerful.”
America is objectively the most powerful empire to ever exist, just as the British were more powerful than the Romans.
i think the only thing keeping china from taking that top slot is reach and the use of the dollar worldwide. both of those are collapsing. the US might not be the biggest asshole on the planet for much longer
Eh… don’t count on it. China has some significant weaknesses. In the short term, economic growth has slowed significantly. Debt in the private and public sector is having consequences, both in the housing market and elsewhere. In the longer term, China is aging at a faster rate than the US, both due to a low birth rate and immigration rates that are virtually nonexistent compared to the US. China’s GDP is outpacing the US for now, but it’s an open question how long that pace will last.
Yeah, instead we’ll get a nation that treats North Korean workers so poorly they riot and execute the management.
Good times for humanity ahead…
OK, what’s your basis for objective measurement?
The ability to literally kill all multicellular life on Earth is a good starting point for “powerful”
I just wouldn’t call it an empire, that’s all. I’m not a historian but to me, empires are made by occupying other countries.
The US is a powerful nation of course, but they don’t have the same focus on conquest as the other countries throughout history have had.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny
Just ignoring the concept of neocolonialism for a second, most American land was stolen through conquest. That the American Empire is not currently aggressively expanding is irrelevant, did Rome not count as an empire when its borders were stable?
That would be interesting, to compare the land mass of the US with the max size of the Roman empire. My guess is that the romans would win by a hair.
But the Brits would definitely win because they have Australia, which is almost as big as the continental US just in itself, let alone all the other countries they conquered.
No. My impressions are based on having lived it before the iron curtain fell.
Unless you’re over a 100 years old you lived in a totalitarian system masquerading as Communism.
See how you didn’t even have to ask which country it was? Because a 100% of communist countries became dictatorships ridden with poverty for the working class and gold plated luxury for the ruling class.
I’m happy now somewhere in the middle in this terrible, terrible capitalism. Oh, and I’m free to leave anytime I want, if I don’t like it.
So do 100% of Capitalist countries without a strong democracy. In fact capitalism is the one designed to do so by concentrating capital.
When we figure out communism or socialism there’s a really good chance it’s a strong democracy that prevents it from falling into totalitarianism. Will it be a bunch of anarchic communes in council? Lol no. Will workers share profit equally with executives? Probably.
Funny how that’s always the result.
Funny how that’s a fallacy, and there have been countless largely communist organizations of human labor over history, which lasted just as long as capitalist society.
Yeah I don’t think we’ve figured out a good way past the charismatic sociopath problem. The best thing we’re going to have in the short term is a democracy with a strong emphasis on socialism.
But prepare for a 25 year old who lives in his mom’s garage in rural Indiana to try to debate you on the subject anyway.
He lives in his mother’s garage because he can’t afford to move out on the pittance he makes at work. It sure wasn’t communism that put him there
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Says the balding neckbeard living in Brexit-land.
Bald, not balding.
Beat me to it. Also living in the post communist wreckage helps too
You mean living under capitalism?
Russia, China, Hungary, whatever these places are
Russia and Hungary are capitalist, China is a transitional stage economy run by a communist party.
I’ve lived in all of these countries
Living in the first decade of capitalism after communism, where freedom of the media exposed all the reality, people were still broke but the state no longer provided free housing (and the build codes changed to no longer allow cheap crappy concrete blocks), old “communists” sold half of all infrastructure to their buddies (where did someone get billions during communism??) and professionals started charging higher rates because now they were free to migrate west if they didn’t earn a decent wage at home. Among others.
As of 2024, things are quite different.
You mean the impressions of having lived in a dictatorship which discarded the idea of progressing towards communism? How is that relevant?
See how you didn’t even have to ask which country it was? Because a 100% of communist countries became dictatorships ridden with poverty for the working class and gold plated luxury for the ruling class.
I’m happy now somewhere in the middle in this terrible, terrible capitalism. Oh, and I’m free to leave anytime I want, if I don’t like it.
Grade-school level history: I didn’t need to ask which country because all of the possible countries were puppet states of a single other country…
Because a 100% of communist countries became dictatorships […]
There are a total of 0 communist countries throughout history. Your lack of very basic knowledge is starting to make me cringe.
I’m happy now somewhere in the middle in this terrible, terrible capitalism.
That’s irrelevant. If you’re happy while I’m driving a nail through your eyes, does that make driving a nail through someone’s eyes a good thing? The fact that you are privileged doesn’t make a difference.
Oh, and I’m free to leave anytime I want
No, you’re not. Your statement is so completely uneducated, I couldn’t even guess where to begin dismantling it.
Lol at the person who said Lemmy doesn’t have many comments.
Ruh roh, you just rattled the hive mind
Oh time for my link
Frame Canada
Wendell Potter spent decades scaring Americans. About Canada. He worked for the health insurance industry, and he knew that if Americans understood Canadian-style health care, they might… like it. So he helped deploy an industry playbook for protecting the health insurance agency.
I’d like to point out that the majority of people on Lemmy 100% think about this. Hence how many up votes it has :p
Any criticism of capitalism is the same as historical communism and therefore always wrong. Accept your fate, citizen.
That’s just historical capitalism. I can fix him!
Real capitalism has never been tried!
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Socialism is not “Social Safety Nets,” and if you were knowledgeable about what you were talking about, you would say Socialism and attempts at Communism. Socialism is Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, and the USSR was a Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The Communist party had stated goals of reaching Communism, a Stateless, Classless, Moneyless society, by using Socialism. They never made it to Communism.
The USSR of course isn’t the only form of Socialism, and isn’t the only method to achieve Communism, but what you just said makes absolutely no sense.
Do you think that maybe people begin to understand what you’re talking about if you refer to Social Safety Nets as Social, not Socialism, because Social Safety Nets are not in fact Socialism?
As a side note: terrible choice to use rape as a casual term for doing something bad. Be more empathetic.
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Nazi Germany was modelled on America.
Comrade pinko barbie!
This post is WAY more insightful than 99% of people realize. I would argue that the only people that fully understand are part of the corporate engine that drives it.
Are you implying you’re a corporate shill?
I’m a mole
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its a dictatorship pretendintg to be an oligarchy pretending to be a democracy. i would call it ‘captured democracy’.
but its just a dictatorship with extra steps.
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Or we could not have leaders. You know, if leaders are all bad people, let’s get rid of them
Every day I stray closer to being an anarcho-communist
Join us. We have knitting circles and cookies. It’s great. You get all the existential dread of knowing what the fuck is wrong with the world, with the added full knowledge that the things that could fix it will likely never happen because we missed our chance at a revolution before the people in power had nukes, and now even if you convince everyone that it would be better that way, those in power will straight up nuke their own people before allowing them to govern themselves, destroying whole swathes of the planet, along with unreplaceable history and culture.
Plus, there’s a nifty æsthetic, and a range of really good music from folk to metal.
Hi, just checked your profile and first blog entry. How enchanting! ;-) what does joining do? Allow us a blog space?
Aww. You may be the first person to actually read my blog. Lol. What is your question about joining?
You’ve very helpfully put your finger on exactly what holds me back. If I found myself believing in a lost cause, I couldn’t bear to go on. I am too close to despair as it is, so I will spare myself the small indulgence of certainty.
The trouble is knowing that it isn’t likely doesn’t stop it from also being true. I’m also of the opinion that just because full communism isn’t likely doesn’t mean we shouldn’t advocate for it, because any move toward liberty, freedom, equality, and the general principles of anarchism and socialism are good things. You don’t come to the table with your compromise, you come to the table with what you know you can’t get, and negotiate to something possible.
Do I believe communism is possible within my lifetime? No. Do I believe it possible at all? Absolutely, not only in the sense that if we did it it would work, but that we can and likely will do it, eventually, if we survive long enough. Do I believe it’s worth fighting for, even if I’ll never see it? Yes. Because the work itself is enough to improve lives, and the more people who throw their lot in with the far left the more likely we are to see real, substantive change for the better, even if it is incremental.
Also, sorry for the 4am wall of text. Haha
It’s not certain, though! It’s only certain if we fail to come together and try!
Xi yes, Putin no. Both are Authoritarian on the Y axis, but Xi does actually dictate a Communist country on the X axis.
Xi kinda killed the illusionary pooch (diplomatic and economic) by shutting down Hong Kong.
Do you guys even understand XY axis over on solarpunk or do you just think that refers to sex?
I kinda wonder.
The political compass is literally a propaganda tool created by right wing “libertarians.” It’s complete bullshit.
Well that answers that at least. Found the new lemmygrad.
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I hate to be the one to break this to you but the Berlin Wall fell. Russia is capitalist.
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