If they hand you a gun and tell you to march off to die in a foreign land, turn the gun around on your killer.
LOL, the support of Ukraine is happening exactly so we don’t get WW3 and won’t have to send our soldiers to fight.
Anyone who thinks Ukraine is Russia’s ultimate goal is extremely naive.
It wasn’t Crimea, it wasn’t Georgia, it wasn’t Chechnya. It won’t stop until
Here’s a quick summary of what it is about: https://youtu.be/M6tsp4mFix8
This is a book published in 1997 which Putin was following and largely until full invasion of Ukraine everything was going smoothly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
Ffs. Russia is not going to fight NATO. Why’d they attack Georgia in 2008? Answer: To prevent them from joining NATO. Why’d they attack Ukraine? Answer: to prevent them from joining NATO. Russia is not dumb enough to fight anything that can throw nukes, that’s why they’re preventing the NATO umbrella from covering (what they consider to be) their sphere of influence.
Question: If Russia has no intention of fighting NATO then why would they give a fuck if Georgia joined NATO? If they were afraid of NATO invasion, as silly as that is, could they not just offer Georgia a similar mutual defense agreement? I cannot imagine any circumstance other than overt greed and expansionism that would require them to invade Georgia.
Yeah it is all bullshit. All the Eastern European countries that could, joined NATO in speedrun, because they knew Russia will claim them back as soon as it is capable to do so. Ukraine and Belarus decided to maintain good relationships, and look at how it paid back.
Russia is a cancer and the countries that hate them the most are their closest neighbors, exactly because they know what kind of cunt the Mother Russia is.
You weren’t paying attention to the events behind the scenes. Maybe this will clue you in on what sorts of things were happening: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa
There is a bigger cancer and its spread reaches out much further.
Cancer of anti-authoritarianism and democracy you mean? Remind me again… What was Milosevic responsible for?
Yeah, I remember when the US gave democracy to Iraq. What a wild success that was.
Because that would remove Georgia from Russia’s sphere of influence. They could no longer de facto dominate Georgia and Georgia would already be armed if a conflict with NATO started.
They do offer their own pact, called the CSTO, Collective Security Treaty Organization.
I think that’s why they invaded Georgia, overt greed. To be fair that also plays a role in NATO expansion. NATO won’t accept a country that can’t pull its own weight unless it has some kind of strategic value or economic value. It must be worth defending.
The West doesn’t conquer. The West sets rules for joining them. And the rules are pretty tough. And still everybody wants in.
I never said they did. However they do insist that everyone participate in their “rules based trade system.” What happens to the countries that don’t want to participate or would rather have another trade system? What about countries that don’t want dollar dominance? It doesn’t go well.
If you don’t follow the rules of trading then don’t be surprised if no one wants to trade with you. It is not our job to support you playing queen bee.
And if you want to do your deals with some Banana Republic Monopoly Money, feel free to do so but be aware you have to pay higher prices as risk compensation if you want to trade with me.
People don’t trade With Dollar and Euro because they MUST but because it is the most economical method. Stop believing the Propaganda of Left, Right and Islamo Extremists.
Do you think if eastern nations made a “defensive alliance” and included Mexico that the US would be fine with it?
Do you think the US would be justified in such a situation to invade Mexico, and would you support it?
Depends on what the “defensive alliance” is trying to do.
Same that NATO is “trying to do” I suppose
You basically just described Cuba, though? The USA didn’t like Castro but we didn’t launch a fullscale war right before the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Yes, and?
Their plan isn’t to fight NATO directly. It’s to instigate domestic political support in foreign countries against entities like NATO and the EU, and push nationalism and isolationism and defeatism into enough people’s heads so that the bigger countries think it isn’t worth fighting Russia to defend another smaller country that is not their own. It’s about killing the idea of article 5 and thus NATO’s reason to exist, so that Russia can confront each country on a bilateral basis where they have the military advantage if no one is coming to their defense.
This probably wont happen with an assault on a major urban area, but little chunks of unpopulated Finland or Norway. How willing would the American public be to send pilots to die for Lapland? If the major powers blink and don’t feel like committing, Russia continues to escalate, like they’ve been doing for the past 15 years
To be fair, Lapland contains Santa Clauses’ workshop.
Imagine the support the West would give to save Christmas.
/S
That sounds like an extremely long-term plan, plus every action Russia would take in pursuit of this goal would be wildly counterproductive to the long-term, so I kind of doubt its true. For example, NATO just expanded in reaction to the Ukraine invasion.
I see you watch Anders Puck Nielsen on Youtube. Ryan McBeth is also interesting.
They didn’t plan to join NATO. Ukraine had a single digit percentage interest in NATO before crimea.
Russia doesn’t want Eastern European countries in NATO, because it makes it much harder to take them over.
NATO is a defensive alliance, and is no danger to Russia except for their imperialist goals. Best example of it is after Finland joined NATO Russia removed their troops from that border. That’s right Russia now has less troops there than they had when they were imaging Ukraine.
And one last thing: even if it was true, since when Russia can decide for sovereign nation who they form alliances with? The excuse to invade looks exactly as the same bullshit Nazi Germany invented with Poland (both claiming to save German minorities and also that was actually planning to invade Germany). They are not even original.
They didn’t plan to join NATO. Ukraine had a single digit percentage interest in NATO before crimea.
Moves were being made to join NATO back in 2008, but progress was shelved when pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych was elected. He was driven out of the country, Russia took Crimea, and then NATO seemed like a particularly good idea.
Russia doesn’t want Eastern European countries in NATO, because it makes it much harder to take them over.
I would also add that it takes them out of the Russian sphere of influence, which is Russia’s main concern. Why take over a country if they cooperate with you?
NATO is a defensive alliance, and is no danger to Russia except for their imperialist goals. Best example of it is after Finland joined NATO Russia removed their troops from that border. That’s right Russia now has less troops there than they had when they were imaging Ukraine.
Well, yes it’s defensive. No NATO country will attack Russia. However, I’d argue that Russia sees it as more than defensive. Each country that joins the alliance is one less country that Russia can dominate de facto. It’s militarily defensive, but that comes after an economic amd political offensive that removes the country from Russia’s influence. Now you might think, well, those countries entered that agreement voluntarily, and I’d say you’re correct, but Russia doesn’t care how it happened. They were taken from Russia as far as Russia is concerned.
I’d also argue that the troop removal from thr Finnish border may have more to do with needing troops in Ukraine than it would defending St Petersburg from Finland.
And one last thing: even if it was true, since when Russia can decide for sovereign nation who they form alliances with? The excuse to invade looks exactly as the same bullshit Nazi Germany invented with Poland (both claiming to save German minorities and also that was actually planning to invade Germany). They are not even original.
Well they did decide in 2008 in Georgia and they just did in Ukraine. Yes, their justification was mostly BS for domestic consumption, but that doesn’t really matter in the end. Other imperialist countries do this, like the US, China, France, etc, but they’re more subtle and you’re in the West’s media bubble, making it really hard to get an impartial source.
If so, those were magnificent own goals. Ukraine wasn’t going to join nato until the little green men showed up, and Sweden and Finland didn’t want to join nato until the full scale invasion. Nato was languishing before all this happened, now they’re re-arming.
You’re mostly right, but in the interest of accuracy: Ukraine was making moves to join NATO way back in 2008, (possibly because of Russia’s invasion of Georgia) but plans were put on hold when pro-Russian Viktor Yanukovych was president. Once a coup kicked him out of office and Russia seized Crimea, NATO membership became a high priority.
It wasn’t a coup. It was a revolution.
That really depends who you ask.
Ask Russians or their braindead boot lickers and it’s a coup - ask the people there fighting for their own country and against russification and it’s a revolution ;)
No, it depends on Definition and Wikipedia is a good start.
Horse Poo doesn’t get Chocolate Cream just because you ask someone else.
Russia is not dumb enough
I hope you’re right, they’ve been huffing the “NATO will be easy to defeat” propaganda for as long as NATO has existed
To prevent them from joining NATO.
This is exactly why those countries should join NATO.
Unfortunately it’s much easier and faster for Russia to start a war than it is to join NATO. A country can’t join NATO if they’re at war or have border disputes.
Good point. But fortunately Russia won’t invade another country as long as it is still occupied in Ukraine, so all neighbouring countries that wish to remain independent should have applied to NATO by now.
Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were smart to do this years ago, otherwise they would’ve been puppet states like Belarus already, since Putin would love to have a better connection between Kaliningrad and the mainland.
And in the process, more of their neighbors have now joined NATO or are supporting NATO with newfound effort.
If Russia is dumb enough to do that, they’re dumb enough to fight NATO.
Those countries were already well outside their sphere of influence. I don’t think they care.
And Ukraine wasn’t after they seized Crimea?
That seemed more like a reminder to Ukraine that they still were. Or perhaps it was something like, if you’re going to choose the EU over us, then we’re taking our naval base.
If the former, that should be something every anti imperialist gets outraged about.
You are wrong because you don’t know what war they want to fight:
Anders Puck Nielsen - NATO-Russia war: Can it really happen?
lol, no.
I think at first it was the only goal, at least, for some years. They now have established war production that they aren’t just going to stop. The Russians have been sharpening their teeth in Ukraine. If Trump somehow wins the election NATO countries will be on the menu.
Seeing downvotes to obvious statements shows how this platform is being dominated by Russian trolls.
Even this post, you think about it, looks like part of a disinformation campaign, trying to imply that Russian aggression on Ukraine is somehow the West’s fault. Like if they drove their tanks there to just say hello, and Ukraine only waited for it to trap them inside.
They didn’t say anything about Ukraine, nor is that relevant to this discussion.
Where do you think the “WW3” in this meme came from?
The only thing you hear about WW3 is from Russian propaganda. Because I guess we will have Russia, Iran and North Korea vs rest of the world war.
That’s when they implement meat grinder tactics. You get trained, but no weapons. The weapons are deployed ahead of you on the front line; better get one quick before you die! Turn around and your own side shoots you first. People go in, meat comes out, and so the handle turns.
Lol. they don’t actually give you the gun till you get there.
There’s always the gun range.
As a veteran, I feel this. I wish I’d served crack instead too.
Why don’t Presidents fight the war? Why do they always send the poor?
Fortunate Son. Their is a song about this but let me teach you a lesson about poverty entrapment. Because it’s easy to take advantage of everybody if you artificially take away the most important parts of people’s lives. Capitalism is designed to make you suffer and the military takes advantage of it to send the least fortunate to the front lines in hopes of a monetary reward because capitalism is designed to keep you under unless you are 1%. Now I have an entire population desperate for money and I need lives on the front line you get the shitshow that is capitalism with the military? Eat the rich. Those piggies are fattest and juiciest.
You’re literally responding to song lyrics
/woosh I haven’t heard or listened in a long time.
Fortunate Son was not about fighting Nazis.
Because the only way to get rid of the poverty is to get rid of the poor.
Millennials volunteered for Iraq.
Gen x*
The oldest millennials were miltary service age in 2002.
That’s scary to know.
Eh…not really. I remember this period quite clearly, people that were gonna join the military suddenly though better of it. There was a 9/11 spike, and for Afghanistan, but not for Iraq.
Before World War I and World War II, many thought things would not escalate until we realised it was far too late. The British intelligence thought the assassination of Franz Ferdinand would only be contained regionally instead of escalating to a world war.
Most wars are class wars and most issues are class issues. But most people are not class conscious. The base tribalism is instead drummed up to distract us from the real root cause. We’re seeing the rise of the far right in many countries such as in Europe, US and India. Most of the rise of the right is due to influx of migrants, who are displaced by neocolonial foreign policies of corporate backed governments and capitalism-induced global warming.
PLENTY of people saw it coming. The majority of people didn’t give a fuck.
But most people are not class conscious.
I think you’d be surprised. Just most of us realize that socialists are ineffective at accomplishing anything. Simultaneously both naive and arrogant and too obnoxious to be able to create a movement most people would want to be a part of.
Simple truth of it is, in the long run we’re all dead anyway. Better to improve the system we have then wait around for socialists doing endless naval gazing dialectics over which ideological framework a stance on an issue would be in before then deciding whether they’re for it or against it.
We’ll all grow old and die before socialists do anything other than complain about how stupid the workers are for not appreciating in their genius.
Keynes > Marx
Biden > [Do socialists even have their shit together enough to even have a leader?]
You don’t have to be democratic socialist to be class conscious. You just have to be aware that much of inequality and injustices arises from growing wealth disparity.
Yeah, you should really be aware of wealth disparity on a global scale. Every American is pretty much in the top 5% of the richest worldwide.
Disparity won’t be fixed by taxing American rich. It will be fixed by plunging every American to Indian poverty standards.
Yeah, if you compare with other countries the Americans are wealthier. But if you compare Americans in the Rust Belt and flyover states with those on the coast, the wealth disparity is much more contextualised and meaningfully comparable. Now we see why Trump is winning in the polls.
If the wealthy and well off keep ignoring issues, liberal democracy will die and we’re going to have World War III.
“People who are hungry, people who are out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.”- Franklin D. Roosevelt
The Bernie Sanders 1% thing isn’t something no one has heard before.
The problem with Bernie is he thinks democratic socialism is Scandinavian style democracy where free market still exists but heavily regulated. Most Americans confuse between social democracy and democratic socialism. And that turns off Americans with supporting more expansive welfare programs and regulations, aside from decades of broad anti-socialist propaganda.
deleted by creator
This must be a troll.
VERY well said!
NO! Booo! Very ill said!
You’d be amazed what some good old fashion propaganda will do for you.
The US was so gung-ho after 9-11 they accidentally attacked the wrong country. I know they didn’t have any problem getting troops or buy-in from the people of all ages. It was pretty disgusting how quickly your average citizen bought into the bull-shit the Bush administration was selling when it was obviously a lie.
“Accidentally”. That’s funny. Not only because there was more than one.
This might have happened. But the internet was still in its infancy, with only MSM having capabilities to stream live for the masses. Social media was limited to forums, BBS, news groups and similar, and they were really a niche.
Seeing all the raw footage of wartorn places on sites like Instagram and TikTok today, and even just sharing them in group chats is a whole new angle that wasn’t there before.
They touted the first Iraq war as the first fully televised war.
The MIC were so proud.
Except, unlike Vietnam, the media wasn’t able to to show our dead when they were returned home. So, not fully televised.
Very excellent point, perhaps the best point.
I thought Vietnam claimed that credit.
Dude I don’t make the metrics, all I know is that Iraq was in HD, or something. The whole war was very legal, very cool.
Yeah. For me it was the same with everyone cheering for Ukraine wanting to get into Nato and putting it in their Constitution even though it would never happen. And then everyone acting surprised when Russia invades after they said they would for years. It was so predictable that I can’t help but assume that it was a deliberate trap set for Russia. Russia is wrong, but it was predictable, inevitable. But everyone was suddenly so gung-ho that possible diplomatic solutions to end this senseless war were not demanded by “the left”. Still isn’t.
And kinda the same with Israel now, the Oct.7 was a horrible atrocity and war crime but they blatantly lied to make it sound even more horrible in order to dehumanize and justify the war crimes they are committing now. But so many on the left are still screaming death! and the news in my “progressive” country is reporting complete propaganda.
Gen-Z is presumably just as easy to brainwash for total war with the right propaganda. Or maybe they will grow up being more resistant to it.
when Russia invades after they said they would for years.
They absolutely didn’t. In fact, Putin ruled out war against Ukraine on many occasions, both before and after the invasions of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.
It was so predictable that I can’t help but assume that it was a deliberate trap set for Russia.
Up until the tanks crossed the border people didn’t believe Russia would invade because they couldn’t believe the Russians could be that stupid. To concoct a plot on such a massive scale with a payoff that relied on the rank idiocy of Russian command doesn’t seem very smart
Putin ruled out war against Ukraine on many occasions, both before and after the invasions of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.
Well…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prelude_to_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
In December 2021, Russia advanced two draft treaties that contained requests for what it referred to as “security guarantees”, including a legally binding promise that Ukraine would not join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and a reduction in NATO troops and materiel stationed in Eastern Europe, threatening unspecified military response if those demands were not met in full. NATO rejected these requests, and the United States warned Russia of “swift and severe” economic sanctions should it further invade Ukraine.
Are you denying this happened?
Personally I thought these demands weren’t too outrageous. With the outright rejection it was clear to me that an invasion was very likely.
Weather it all “doesn’t seem smart” or “is stupid” doesn’t really matter. What is pissing me off though is that the US is doing things like that all the time except the “intellectuals” always listen to their reasons and repeat them. But if others act in the exact same way it’s just amoral. What bothers me isn’t so much the bigotry (one set of rules for us, another for the others), but that this way any attempt at peaceful diplomatic resolution is prevented. This makes it war propaganda. You want to negotiate with terrorists?
Really our western civilization hasn’t learned a damn thing.
December 2021 is two months before the invasion, not “years”, like you wrote previously. I agree that once the Russians stationed their army at the Ukrainian border and threatened to invade, that the invasion became fairly predictable.
Personally I thought these demands weren’t too outrageous.
Russia wanted to dictate the military movements and foreign policy of nine countries, otherwise they would attack a different country from those nine. I don’t believe anyone has ever tried to pull a more outrageous stunt. Those demands were meant to provide cover for aggression, not to start a negotiation. It worked on you.
the US is doing things like that all the time
The last time the USA waged a war to take territory from a neighbour was in 1848, nearly two hundred years ago, and I don’t think they’ve ever made demands of one country and then waged war on a completely different country when they weren’t met. They do not, in fact, do things like that all the time. You can object to a lot of what the USA does, but even at their worst, they don’t act like this.
For someone who criticizes others for accepting justifications for war, you sure are very accepting of justifications for war, provided the Russians are the ones doing the justifying.
Of course Russia is playing games but it’s a lie that the US and the western colonial powers don’t do the same thing. This is geopolitics. That’s is not moral relativism, it’s just historical facts.
If you are unwilling to negotiate and compromise with your enemy and rather go to war, then that’s a consequence based on your action.
And to justify this you need to adopt actual fascist ideology based on the myth that the US and Nato, when they do the exact same things, somehow have good reasons. Because we are “pure” and “moral”. But when others, “inferior” cultures do it it’s just terrorism or aggression. And they can’t be trusted so negotiation is useless.
I’m just shocked how well that propaganda still works. We haven’t learned a god damn thing.
If you are unwilling to negotiate and compromise with your enemy and rather go to war
Who went to war in Ukraine?
the US and Nato, when they do the exact same things, somehow have good reasons.
But they don’t do the exact same things. The USA and NATO don’t annex parts of other countries.
But they don’t do the exact same things. The USA and NATO don’t annex parts of other countries.
I was being generous, obviously the US is far worse in terms of body count, injuries, displaced people, devastation and ruined countries, regimes changed and democracies suppressed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States#21st-century_wars
Of course Russia sees Ukraine joining Nato as an act of aggression. They said this and that they won’t tolerate it. They said it over and over again. And Ukraine put it in their constitution and warmongers like Stoltenberg kept encouraging them. This was all put in motion in 2014 already.
You can say the war is worth it to not loose Crimea and in order to damage and isolate Russia. Ukraine certainly did think so, they wanted a permanent irrevocable break from any interference from Russia. They knew the war was coming and didn’t want to negotiate. Fine.
Personally I’d have preferred a compromise and have peace and a chance for improved relations later. Call me a pacifist.
Taiwan seems to be next on the agenda, since the US is gung ho on making it their “close military partner” in their strategy to encircle China. If you don’t learn from history you’re doomed to repeat it.
But everyone was suddenly so gung-ho that possible diplomatic solutions to end this senseless war were not demanded by “the left”. Still isn’t.
What diplomatic solution? Unless you’re selling parts of Ukraine for peace, which isn’t a long term plan, the only solution is Russia leaving.
Russia isn’t going to give Crimea / Sevastopol back, and they do have some legitimate claim to it.
If you’re unwilling to consider compromise to achieve a diplomatic solution you are making it inevitable that this will be decided through the use of war. And that is what I call “gung-ho”.
Also ironic that you’re talking about selling parts of Ukraine off for peace, because they are currently selling their whole country to the west for continued military aid. And they’ll definitely going to want to see a return on that investment. So foolish.
PS: Lol this reminds me how Quark basically said it best: https://youtu.be/hdQcGzbpN7s
they do have some legitimate claim to it.
They recognized it as part of Ukraine on independence and then reaffirmed it with the Budapest memorandum. They have no claim, it was naked aggression
They altered the terms of the deal. I think they expected to being able to keep their main fleet headquarters and have friendly relations with Ukraine, not a nato armed country on their doorstep 🤷
But this is the problem: You think that Russia should abide by moral arguments of right and wrong, while the US and Nato clearly isn’t. They are pursuing their own geopolitical agenda, but you judge them with two different sets of values. “Russia can’t be trusted because they are inherently evil! Diplomatic solutions are useless!”
The result is war, a country destroyed, many lives lost, many refugees, a century of debt and neo-liberalism for those that survive. That is the result. And there WAS a diplomatic solution on the table.
So Gen Z and Millennials are just as susceptible to cries for “total war” as all the stupid Muppets that came before them. So fuck you for being just as stupid as our generation 🤣
They did you know that Ukraine is one of the big bread baskets of the world? This might come in handy when climate change creates food insecurity. Luckily our motivations are purely altruistic and based on higher morality…
They altered the terms of the deal. I think they expected to being able to keep their main fleet headquarters and have friendly relations with Ukraine
This is incredibly revisionist. Ukraine very much wanted and tried to remain friendly with Russia, and Russia losing the lease on the ports was never in question before Russia invaded.
It was Putin who demanded Ukraine choose between Russia and Europe, and then invaded Crimea and the East when he didn’t like their choice.
and they do have some legitimate claim to it.
cool, cool, cool… so which part of your country would you be willing to shave off to an invading party on the promise that’s all they’ll take?
Puerto Rico? Now wait, Florida obviously.
This sentiment of ‘I’m not going to fight’ is funny until the war actually starts. And then it’s either you fight early, or you fight late. Sometimes too late.
Nah. I’d legitimately rather kill myself than fight for my government.
Save a shell for me. ♥️✨
War sounds kinda fun tho (please don’t look at my avatar)
Which one?
USA
Fair enough.
Will you turn into spaghetti?
Wasn’t that amaricas strategy in the past 2 world wars. Like we basically just waited for everyone to wear echother down.
Until someone was like, check this MF out just sitting there, they’re just waiting it out for everyone else to wear each other down!
Incidentally, this was Russia’s plan, too. In fact, still is. We should really pounce on those fuckers while they’re weak.
100% agree. The only thing that makes me feel better about a lot of the dumb tankie shit people say here is that I know most of them are under the age of 20.
I said dumb shit when I was young too. But I grew out of it. I’m hoping these kids do too.
Nah. I’m in my 30s. Fuck dying face down in the mud in a foreign country while protecting ruling class control over others. It’s not a sign of maturity to claim fealty to a system that doesnt care if you live or die, so long as you make your landlord and boss richer.
lol… okay. No worries. When the time comes… others will do that for you so you can sit on your ass and complain about how bad everything is while doing nothing to change it.
Don’t bother responding. Blocked you like I have everyone else with shit attitudes similar to yours.
We’ll keep your Mrs happy
Doubtful, she doesn’t date children.
You thought to yourself, “now that’s a zinger. You’ve done it again, Pratai of Bangalore, you son of a gun did it again!”
And the kid who said they’d “keep my Ms happy?” I’m assuming you responded in kind to them as well?
Yeah, I didn’t think so.
Ok boomer.
I love it when you kids make it easy to know who has anything useful to say- and who to block from my feed.
Oh no. Anyways…
Then you became an enlightened centrist?
I figured I’d just fuck off out of here before shit goes down. In fact I have no idea why I’m even living in this shithole instead of a paradise island. It costs about 1/10th as much, is tropical, beautiful, and so poor nobody would ever think of invading it. I don’t know about you but I can make that work.
Something tells me you’re from the USA. There are other Western governments, and other places that are arguably better (as in, more comfortable/safe) to live in. Many people have dependents, or things to loose that they value over one’s life.
So yeah, it may be an option for you but that beautiful tropical island won’t fit millions upon millions of people living in the collective West.
I try not to go too public with where I’m from online, and use multiple accounts and contradict myself just to fuzzle the algorithms.
But I am actually from an (allegedly) very stable and very democratic nation. Allegedly.
Things change, sometimes rapidly, but I’ve seen the writing on the wall for at least two decades now, and honestly I feel like I’m running out of time.
Actually committed now and moving in a few months, permanently. There is nothing left here, and the future is bleak.
(and apropos, I am most certainly not moving to any Western country, or any particularly developed one in the slightest. I think the West is about to find itself in an absolute shitstorm, and soon, and I am NOT getting caught in that crossfire)
I mean it definitely depends on the circumstances. If Russia attacks here then I’m absolutely fighting.
If Russia attacks
Don’t worry, we’ve got Sarah Palin on watch.
Are you referring to the infamous Alaska comment? Send Palin to my country, we can give her a spot and binoculars.
Who would you fight? The missile coming at you? I don’t think we would need many soldiers in a fight vs Russia.
If Russia attacks here then I imagine it would be somewhat like in Ukraine where manpower definitely helps.
They can’t attack here like in Ukraine as there is no land to move across. They would have to use their sad navy to try to land troops crossing many miles of ocean out in the open. Not possible.
Not the case here, unfortunately
Well, good for you. I’m not.
That’s why I was only talking about myself
Ok. Misread your intentions then
That’s how they do it, you know. Build up the enemy as this absolutely big bad that you feel you have to.
Russia attacks my country
“You know, that’s how they do it, they make Russia feel like the big bad enemy you have to fight against”
Lmao WHAT?!? If they’re literally attacking my country then of course I’m fighting to defend it??
An important detail to notice here is that a user calling themselves kusimulkku is likely to be writing this from Finland. Which may result in an important difference of perspective.
Finland is correct. Though I have no idea what sort of situation those other people assumed to warrant such a claim.
There is the danger of manufacturing consent.
https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/remember-maine-1898
Raising tensions then using an incident to light the touch paper.
Russian’s at the border is one thing.
But the most likely “attack” on the US is going to be much smaller.
Note the Houthis attacking merchant ships. Under a US flag.
There are 2 options
- retaliate.
or
- tell the ships to go round and use sanctions and other non violent diplomatic tools to resolve the situation.
Option 1 is an escalation.
Option 2 is not.
The US military is is an odd position. I’d defend Ukraine from Russia. I’d defend Palestine from Israel. I’d defend Israel from Palestine.
I wouldn’t support an aggressor.
There is a moral obligation to support violence in that it must be a necessary defence.
Joining the US military we’ve grown up seeing the US as an aggressor continuously. Supporting aggressors, not sanctioning them.
Then with Ukraine there is reluctance to help a defender.
A country that invaded nations at the drop of a hat 20 years ago has a recruitment problem. No surprises there.
If Russian troops are crossing the border then it’s Russians who have manufactured the consent for violent action to drive them the fuck away.
I agree, but if that’s the way the US, or any other NATO country, gets attacked I’ll be surprised.
This is not the war that is proposed, it’s a series of proxy wars. Just like Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, and the decades long conflict with Palestine.
Ask if you’ll defend yourself, you’ll say yes.
Ask if you’ll defend others, the answer is usually “it depends”.
Ask if you’ll go fight in a proxy war which protects largely corporate interests, you’ll say no.
Joining the American military is saying yes to all 3. That’s the recruitment issue going on there.
If Russia attacks the US, our government would try to use that as a recruitment tool, and would probably succeed.
Meanwhile the majority of us would be cheering on the Alaskan citizens that are armed for wildlife that would stop a T-70 in its tracks, to say nothing of the poor Russian conscripts.
Nobody look up what Finland was doing in the 1930s.
Why is that relevant
😎
You need to be clearer about what point you’re trying to make or the reader has to choose for you. What I’m getting is
Finnish Great Grandpa did some bad shit, so whatever Russia is doing now is ok
Russia attacks my country
To quote the Greatest President of My Generatoin “We need to fight them over there so we won’t be fighting them over here.”
That’s why I’m enlisting in the Ukrainian National Guard and I hope you’ll all join me.
I’m fine with just sending money and materiel to support the Ukrainian efforts. I’m hoping to avoid fighting in a war.
What makes you think Russia will attack your country?
I’m not sure if you misunderstood the discussion but this is what I wrote (bolded for emphasis)
I mean it definitely depends on the circumstances. If Russia attacks here then I’m absolutely fighting.
I’m saying that if that were to happen, then I’d fight in the WW3.
What if Australia invaded your country? Obviously the if is because you consider it a possibility.
What if Australia invaded your country?
I would defend it.
Obviously the if is because you consider it a possibility.
Not how hypotheticals work but it obviously is a possibility.
Ehhh… Not really. The one thing that the US has over every other nation currently is its deep water Navy. We could project power like that, and have done so for about 80 years now… China is the only nation that is even building a deep water Navy, but they have yet to attempt to project power past one of their neighbors.
Australia has literally zero chance to invade Finland no matter how much shit talking the Russians blame on Finland.
Found the Russia apologist. Obviously Russia was used as an example country because they are actively and illegally invading Ukraine right the fuck now, while threatening to invade the rest of eastern Europe.
And, funnily enough, Alaska. I almost want to see them try that shit.
How am I an apologist for pointing out chicken little bullshit? Do you fantasize about Russia invading your country? Let’s be realistic here, Russia can’t even overtake Ukraine and you think they’re going to take over the world.
Ukraine, Crimea, Georgia…
Pretty soon they’ll be invading Canada, huh?
The person you originally replied to lives in a country bordering Russia that was invaded by them in the past.
About as likely to be invaded as Canada. Just look at how much they’re struggling with Ukraine.
Look mate, all I’m saying is that Russia is saying the same things to their citizens. And Germans were saying the same things to theirs. And the Pope was saying the same things to the crusaders.
Likewise, a country is just imaginary, made by the rich to separate who can exploit the people in a specific geography. By all means, fight for it, but just know you’re being played.
Russia literally attack my country, Russian soldiers are pouring over the border, I’m about to join to defend it
“You know Pope told the same thing to crusaders, besides countries are imaginary, why do you care if you live in your own country or as part of Russia under Putin. You are just being played.”
Lmao, you people can’t be serious, this is beyond fucking stupid
Aight mate, you do you.
wants to defend my country from Russia literally attacking and trying to invade it
“You do you mate”
I’m in awe. This has been the best exchange I’ve had in quite some while. I’m almost too flabbergasted to laugh
I’m just glad you get so much excitement out of my 5 words reply.
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Why? What difference edoes it make to you who runs the joint?
It makes a huge difference if I live under democracy in Finland or under Putin in Russia. What the fuck are you smoking
As long as they are recruiting the dumbest and poorest from your failing high-schools you’ll always have enough for your wars.
Millennial here. Can confirm, I’ll be staying home and doing my own thing. One live isn’t worth more then another and I’m not going to war. If you’re going to put me in jail because I refuse, then maybe I need to find a different country to live in.
On the very off chance they restarted the draft, there are tons of reasons the Pentagon would fight conscription, make sure you know asylum procedures or have the stuff ready to immigrate. Run don’t try to just ignore the draft.
They, the last time they did the draft, didn’t just throw normies into jail, they grabbed them then kicked them over to the military and then if you ran away and got brought back after being AWOL they just deployed you and let happen what happened, regulars frequently discovered that these sorts had… uhh… “accidents” at a more frequent rate.
Millennial here, I’m pushing 40, you wouldn’t want me even if I was willing to fight.
then maybe I need to find a different country to live in
I was born and raised in Germany and never changed my foreign citizenship, it was always on the bucket list. My husband immigrated in 2019, and since 2022 I am freaking out at the thought that we would change citizenship. Being a foreign citizen sucks sometimes, but in case of war it is extremely beneficial. Avoid drafting at home, avoid drafting where you live.
So, moving in case of a war would be more than beneficial, you just got to do it early on, before they close borders. We had friends dropping everything and packing just their cat and passports the same night Russia attacked Ukraine.
All the other comments seem to be about the US. I’m not sure how Canada will be in time of war but I agree with you. Being a foreign citizen is worth it. If I’m to leave, id go to The Netherlands but I really do not want to leave Canada.
The longer this shit goes on, the more I’m starting to worry. I hope it ends soon.
If you run against a war with Russia then the war will catch you eventually. Are you planning to live the rest of your days in an obscure South American nation?
As opposed to to your life ending in a few short months on a battlefield?
Sure. Why not.
It doesn’t have to be Sth America. US men dodging the draft were given political asylum in Canada or Sweden during the Vietnam war and an estimated 60-100,000 fled the US.
So it is actually:
Decades in another modern western nation or weeks/months on a battle field?
Easy choice.
I asked it in question form because I was legitimately curious. Where do you plan to go while the world you leave behind devolves into an authoritarian hell? What other “modern western nation” would be left if Russia and/or China expands all the way across Europe as well as onto US Shores?
You don’t have a second life to flee to if the west fails to defend itself.
I’ll defend my country, but I’m not going to engage in an armed conflict overseas.
IMO, as long as it’s not directly threatening me and my life, then I will simply see another WW as old people who are angry at other old people, sending me off to die for their grudge.
No thanks chief. Stick me in prison if you’re so inclined but I’m not about to kill some poor kid I’ve never met and I don’t have anything against, just because you can’t use your words.
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Where does the line for “directly threatening” go tho?
Basically two things: if there’s combat happening on my countries land, and if there’s a well known intent to bring the fighting to my country.
So…they are going to send gen x and gen alpha?
Gen X here, fuck that noise.
We’re too old. There’s a reason they recruit high schoolers. They don’t have enough life experience to know when they should say, “with all due respect sir, fuck that,” when given an unlawful order. Also they know we are more likely to kill the officers if we decide to go out.
I mean, recruit the gen x to be the officers and the gen alpha gamers to pilot the combat androids and drones.
pilot the combat androids
I’m convinced this near-future sci-fi bullshit exists as a means of suckering in 19-year-olds who think they won’t be in the trenches getting mortars dropped on their heads.
Like this tactic is even new, just replace “near-future sci-fi” with “DnD + American Gladiators” and you have the same dumb shit but 25 years ago
Oh man. I remember watching that during Saturday morning cartoons as a kid. Pretty bonkers, but still not as crazy as the creepy texts military recruiters would send high schoolers.
Cannon fodder will be gen z and millennials /s
don’t worry, I hear there are a bunch of states in the US that are readying the next batch with moms who died from birth complication, unwanted babies, etc.
Ask Nicolae Ceaușescu what happens next.
Between propaganda and indecision, a whole generation will learn of conscription.
Denial on ethical grounds is possible though
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector
Since 1995 this includes the right to become an objector while during active service.
They may try to recruit you for civilian service though, War does requires more then just soldiers. I am not sure to what extend those can be refused.
Jokes on you, my aspie ass is ineligible! Suck it, US army!
Nah fuck ya’ll Ima sign up if we have an enemy worth fighting for the first time in my life. I’ll push the lines to Moscow, Beijing, idgaf: dictatorships will destroy us all if left unchecked, make life not worth living for everyone. The whole time I’m deployed I’m going to be using absentee ballots, and if I make it back I’m gonna use my new cred to run for office and fight the corporations, too.
If you are in the US, you might wanna prevent your own dictatorship first.
Definitely on the todo list, but honestly the options seem mutually exclusive given the friendliness between our wannabe dictator and his foreign dictator benefactor.
Do what lol. Yeah everyone says we have guns to “stop tyranny” but the national guard would kick our ass.
Beijing and Moscow will defend themselves with nukes before they allow their capitals to be taken. America would do the same.
LMAO defend with nukes
If they get desperate enough to arm nuclear warheads then their country is already at the verge of collapse. There is no benefit to firing nukes even as a last resort, it does nothing to improve your situation.
You think there’s a chance of boots-on-the-ground conflict with these people? No. Swords get crossed and everyone’s dust.
You think it makes sense for Russia to lose as much as it has in the Ukrainian conflict? That is the thing with authoritarian states, they’re more aggressive and make more costly mistakes. They already have nuclear weapons and they aren’t using them. If I were afraid of nuclear war then I would have lived all my life and all of its remainder in fear because there has always been some madman with a finger over the button, I’m not just going to give up and bend over for him.
The mad men would survive in their five-star underground ritz-carlton
Survive and do what? There is nothing waiting for them outside of that tunnel.
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Disgustingly bloodthirsty.
I’ll tell the freezing homeless about how you’re heroically dying to defend their freedom and prosperity.
Dictatorships are bad
Well you have homeless people!
Uhhh
There’s a pretty big leap from “Dictatorships are bad” to “Invade Moscow and Beijing”.
How about
I want to fight dictatorships
Well you have homeless people!
Not sure how you could turn that without it sounding like a total non sequitur
You think they’ll be happier in a wartorn dictatorship? I don’t pretend the USA is some beacon of hope with its gerrymandered failing democracy, but it sure as fuck beats Putin or Jinping calling the shots.
Xi Jinpooh
I would defect to the afterlife before fighting a war for this country.
