Freedom is the ONLY thing that counts. I do acknowledge that Libertarians claim to want to pursue freedom.
However I believe that Libertarianism, will only replace tyrannical government with tyrannical rule by businesses.
The problem with governments no matter their political leaning is that most political ideologies lack any mechanism to deal with corruption and abuses of power. Libertarianism seeks to deal with this by removing government and instead hand the power to private companies.
Companies are usually small dictatorships or even tyrannies. Handing them the power over all of society will only benefit the owners of these companies. The rest of society will basically be reduced to the status of slaves as they have no say over the direction of the society they maintain through their 9to5s.
These companies already control governments around the world through favors, bribes or other means such as regulatory capture or even by influencing the media and thereby manipulating the public’s opinion through the advertisement revenue.
Our problems would only get worse, all the ills of today’s society, lack of freedom, lack of peace, lack of just basic human decency will be vastly aggravated if we hand the entirety of control to people like petur tihel and allen mosque.
Instead the way to go about this is MORE democracy not less of it. The solution is to give average citizens more influence over the fate of society rather than less. However for that to happen we all need to fight ignorance and promote the spread of education. It has to become cool again to read books (or .epub/.mobi’s lol)
The best way to resolve the the corruption issue is to not allow any individual to hold power, instead having a distributed system.
More of a community-driven government. Sort of like these workers owned companies. We should not delegate away our decision-making power. We should ourselves make the decisions.
Although this post is in English it does neither concern the ASU nor KU or any other English speaking countries, in particular. It’s a general post addressing a world wide phenomenon.
;)
Libertarian Police™ Department
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.
“Bad news, detective. We got a situation.”
“What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?”
“Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.”
The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?”
“Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”
“Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.”
He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”
“Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.”
I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside.
“Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t.
“Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.
“Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?”
It didn’t seem like they did.
“Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.”
Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing.
I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it.
“Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled.
Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.
“Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.
I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!”
He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose.
“All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”
“Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.
“Because I was afraid.”
“Afraid?”
“Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.”
I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.
“Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.”
He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him.
One of the best copy-pastas ever written. Gets me laughing every time.
This is awesome. You might also like Fry and Laurie’s Private Police
This is fucking gold
I think you may have come up with the least unpopular opinion on Lemmy. There’s more people who are unabashed fans of Stalin and Mao than there are libertarians.
Buuut…I mean, I’m not a libertarian, but I’ve taken libertarian ideas more seriously than you have, so I can play devil’s advocate.
The idea behind libertarianism isn’t to hand power over to corporations; that’s just what detractors claim will happen. What they claim will happen is that corporations will become far less powerful.
The nightmare cyberpunk scenario where companies acquire private militaries and just physically take over doesn’t really apply. The difference between libertarians and anarchists is that the former do see a place for government, usually including military, courts, policing, enforcement of contracts, and a few other things. So companies would continue to have to earn your dollar the old fashion way.
Now, think of industries that suck, where the companies are really shitty causing people to complain about them all the time, but are nonetheless stuck using them for lack of options.
Got some? Okay, now, were you thinking of electronics companies? No? How about bedding, or kitchenware? Hardware & tools? Flooring? Children’s toys? Food & grocery?
Or…were you maybe thinking (depending where you live) of banking, airline, healthcare, insurance, or telecom industries?
Okay, now, change of topic: think of some industries with lots of regulation and government intervention.
Did you by any chance come up with the same list?
Lots of people will claim those industries are heavily regulated because they’re somehow inherently shitty, and need the government to step in to fix them. Libertarians would say that those industries are shitty because regulations and government interventions prevent competition and shelter incumbents. They don’t have to treat customers well anymore, or make particularly good products, because their position is secure whether they do or not. In an actual free market, competition is easier, so it’s harder for a company to establish a monopoly.
An extreme example: Britain famously demanded Hong Kong as compensation from China during the Opium Wars, and used it as a gateway to Asia. They treated it with a sort of benign neglect: as long as the port was functioning, they didn’t pay that much attention to the operation of the territory. It was not heavily regulated, to the point that even (for example) the healthcare industry was basically regulation-free. You could literally stick a sign on the door of your apartment claiming you were doctor, and start treating people, and nobody would stop you.
So, since healthcare is one of those sacred industries that requires heavy government regulation to protect people, the life expectancy and health outcomes of Hong Kongers must have been abysmal, right? Well…no, it actually climbed steadily throughout, and is #1 in the world today (though it should be noted the situation re: regulation changed post-1997). And it was a hell of a lot cheaper than American or European healthcare at every point.
There are industries where monopolies seem to form naturally. In my lifetime, Microsoft, Facebook and Google have all been accused of being monopolistic. There were calls for government intervention. But like…they were monopolies (or got close, anyway) because lots of people chose to use them. Nobody was forced. I couldn’t stand Microsoft or Facebook, so I switched to Linux way back in the 90s and I’ve never really used Facebook at all. I do use some Google products, because they’re pretty good.
And I’m fine. Nobody ever threatened me. My life wasn’t negatively affected AFAICT. I just didn’t use that product. Competitors appeared, like Linux & BSD, Reddit, Lemmy, etc, and I liked those better so I used them instead. That was it. Pretty boring as far as dystopias go.
The situation is a bit different when it comes to government. I can’t opt in or out, I’m just stuck. I mean, I can move (assuming I have enough cash to do it), but fully extricating yourself from your home country is surprisingly hard: the US will chase you around the world to claim taxes from your income. And you immediately have to pick another country, and your options are severely limited.
People talk about corporations in such dire terms. It’s kind of mystifying to me: just don’t fucking use that corporation’s products. Voila! You’re free from their insidious influence.
Ahh, but they corrupt government institutions with their lobbying money! The libertarian answer is: have fewer government institutions, then. They can’t lobby to bend regulations in their favor if there are no regulations in the first place. They would say that heavy regulation means incumbents are protected from competition, and can thus extract more ‘rent’, meaning more profit, which they can then turn towards warping the copious regulations in their favor…meaning still more protection, more profit, and more regulatory capture.
Like I said, I’m not a libertarian, but I understand their perspective, and I think it should be more influential than it is. I can talk about how rent control raises housing costs, or how “worker’s rights” results in lower pay, or how minimum wages are racist and sexist.
Or you can just call me names for taking libertarians seriously! That seems like the more popular approach.
Now, think of industries that suck, where the companies are really shitty causing people to complain about them all the time, but are nonetheless stuck using them for lack of options.
…
Or…were you maybe thinking (depending where you live) of banking, airline, healthcare, insurance, or telecom industries?
Okay, now, change of topic: think of some industries with lots of regulation and government intervention.
Did you by any chance come up with the same list?
Typical libertarian blather.
In each one of these cases the industry predates the regulation. The regulation of banking is a response to the shitty behaviour of pre-regulation banks. Ditto for airlines, health care, insurance, telecom, etc. etc. etc.
The old adage “each regulation is written in blood” applies (albeit the blood being metaphorical in some cases).
The libertarian cinematic universe (coughRandroidscough) has it that businessmen were just chugging along merrily making a profit when suddenly, out of nowhere, the government leaped in to slap regulations on things. The reality is that regulations (which are themselves, naturally, not perfect, often applied long after the need has vanished, and prone to being corrupted) are a response to corporate malfeasance. Very few regulations are made ahead of the fact. (Politicians are constitutionally incapable of thinking ahead, after all.)
So airlines being heavily-regulated? Go look at the history of the airline industry. Look at the accident rates caused by the complete and utter profiteering of early airlines. Then ask yourself if regulation made these industries evil, or if perhaps regulations came in because of the evil of said industries.
Typical libertarian blather.
Typical ad-hominem dismissal.
In each one of these cases the industry predates the regulation.
Yeah, I preempted you and pointed out that’s the argument of the ‘other’ side.
There are some cases where you can argue that regulation was a response to abuses. I’d agree with banking. I gave a counterpoint re: healthcare, where free market healthcare worked really well.
Telecom was largely rolled out by government monopolies, in order to do it quickly. Then (at least in Canada, where I’m from), the government basically passed monopolistic government bodies to private companies, with a little “make sure to allow competition!” clause. Surprise surprise, there’s basically 1-2 telecom companies per province in Canada today, and they’ve captured the fuck out of regulatory bodies. Corporations are corporations, and they’re gonna seek profit. That’s a good thing if they’re competing and struggling, but terrible if you pass them a harness and whip.
I’m skeptical about airlines & insurance. They’d have worked themselves out eventually, if left to market forces, but that’s never been allowed to happen.
Early airlines were a mess, but the last 50 years have been incredibly safe. You’re like 1000x safer in a plane than a car. I’ve seen arguments that such extreme safety regulations are actually causing thousands of deaths per year: the level of regulation significantly raises the price (I’ve seen 2x as a rough estimate, no idea how accurate that is), which causes a lot of people to drive instead of fly–and driving is 1000x less safe, so lots of them die in car accidents. If flying were only a few hundred times safer than driving, and prices dropped by 25%, it might save hundreds of lives due to fewer car accidents.
There’s this problem with regulation: nobody ever lost their bureaucratic job by being too careful. If you’re a government bureaucrat and you eased up regulations on airlines (or food & drug safety, or building codes, etc), and that caused some incident that killed a person or two, you could be offered up as a sacrifice to public rage–even if the same relaxation of regulations saved lives by encouraging (safer) flying over driving, or made drugs available that saves hundreds of lives, or made housing 13% cheaper in some given city. The benefits are diffuse, the harm is acute–and newsworthy. And what’s the upside for you, as a bureaucrat? You don’t get a raise, or a bonus, or even a pat on the back for lower housing prices or exciting new cancer treatments.
So: restrict, limit, contain, regulate. That’s the only sane thing to do. Make a big deal about how safe you’re keeping everybody. Nobody will ever know that thousands of lives could have been saved, or housing could’ve been affordable, or travel could’ve been quicker, etc, if you’d eased up on regulations. You, the bureaucrat, will never face the counterexample–or the costs associated with overregulation.
I gave a counterpoint re: healthcare, where free market healthcare worked really well.
The nation noted for its “free market healthcare” on the world stage has shit health stats. Working real well there, Sparky.
Telecom was largely rolled out by government monopolies, in order to do it quickly.
Time to open up a history book, there, dude. 'Cause you are so fucking far off the mark it’s hilarious.
I’m skeptical about airlines … They’d have worked themselves out eventually, if left to market forces, but that’s never been allowed to happen.
At what cost in bodies? I know to the libertarian mindset death counts are just number, but each increment of those numbers is a human life. The ultimate loss of liberty is death.
Want to see what “market forces” do in airline industries? Look at the 737-MAX fiasco, where government abrogated its oversight of the airline, permitting companies to “self-certify”, a decision that you can draw a direct line from to 346 dead bodies.
Seriously, go visit those 346 people’s families. Tell them that “market forces” would have eventually settled out the issues. Be ready to run. 346 times.
The idea of regulation is to stop the bodies from happening in the first place instead of waiting, while the body count racks up, for “market forces” to fix everything.
This religion of “the market solves all” is why libertarians are fuckwits.
The nation noted for its “free market healthcare” on the world stage has shit health stats.
You mean the nation where the government spends more per-capita on healthcare per citizen than almost anywhere else, while also claiming to be “free market”? The US healthcare industry is a fucking disaster.
'Cause you are so fucking far off the mark it’s hilarious.
Well, don’t trip over yourself correcting me or anything. Silly me, I thought SaskTel, BCTel, Manitoba Telecom Services, and Alberta Government Telephones were Crown Corporations (i.e. public). I’m not as familiar with the history of telecom in the US–but also, the modern-day telecom industry is a hell of a lot healthier in the US.
At what cost in bodies?
Did you skip the rest of my comment? Over-regulation of airlines is almost certainly costing bodies today. That doesn’t bother you, though, right?
Look at the 737-MAX fiasco, where government abrogated its oversight of the airline, permitting companies to “self-certify”
Dereliction of self-assigned duty. The government claimed responsibility for airline safety, then quietly dropped it. If they’d never taken responsibility in the first place, there’d be independent bodies doing it–the same way Consumer Reports gives safety ratings for cars without government funding.
And even so, even with aalllll those 737-MAX deaths, airlines are still 1000x safer than driving your car. Per 100k flights, you can expect roughly 1 accident, of which fewer than half result in any fatalities at all. Keep the ‘fiasco’ in perspective.
Seriously, go visit those 346 people’s families.
Okay, how 'bout I do that, and you go console all the victims of car accidents in the US. Hell, restrict yourself to the ones where one involved party said something like “You know, we could fly…nah, it’s too expensive!” Hard to quantify, but given the car accident stats, I think you’ve got your work cut out for you.
The idea of regulation is to stop the bodies from happening in the first place instead of waiting
Just ground all planes, and flight accidents would fall to zero! Brilliant! And incidentally, that is analogous to the situation today: we severely restrict airlines in the name of safety, resulting in more deaths elsewhere (but that’s not on us, the airline regulators!)
This religion of “the market solves all” is why libertarians are fuckwits.
But the market solves a hell of a lot more than people give it credit for.
And there’s the name-calling! Boy, you sure showed them libertarians!
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I’m not as familiar with the history of telecom in the US–but also, the modern-day telecom industry is a hell of a lot healthier in the US.
Read up. It amazes me that we live in an age where information is at our fingertips in seconds and people still “debate” while saying things like “I don’t actually know …”. Read. The fuck. Up.
The reason the American telecom industry is “healthy” (FSVO “healthy”) right now is because the government stepped in. It was literally government intervention that caused telecoms to blossom.
(Hint: this happened in my lifetime, and not that long before your lifetime, likely.)
…the same way Consumer Reports gives safety ratings for cars without government funding.
After government enforced safety regulations set the baseline standards, yes. Again, just as with the telecoms industry (and the airline industry, for that matter) Read. The fuck. Up. This is not esoteric information that’s concealed and known only to a select few. This is the motherfucking public record.
And there’s the name-calling! Boy, you sure showed them libertarians!
You. You libertarians. (It’s utterly adorable that you’re pretending not to be one and are just “giving their side”. You’re transparent as all fucking Hell, with about the subtlety of a riot.)
Man, fuck off. You claim to know everything? You sure don’t do much exposition if that’s the case. Content to just bitch, huh?
I know about Bell and the breakup. I don’t know as much about the original evolution of the telecon market in the US. I bet if I did some research I’d find regulatory capture, government protectionism, and at the very least abuse of IP law. Not sure how much explicit government funding I’d find, but I bet it’s a lot more than zero.
I know the government loves to set baselines. I’m very skeptical, in many cases, that they’re necessary. Just asserting that they are and telling me to “Read. Up.” is not persuasive.
I’ve listed some of the many reasons I’m not a libertarian elsewhere in this thread. See, I’m of the opinion that any intelligent person should be able to explain an argument, even if they don’t fully agree, because if you don’t understand an argument you don’t actually know if you agree or not.
But you wouldn’t know about that. If I were you, I’d stick to your forte: scanning pages of arguments and examples, ignoring almost everything while looking for cases where you suspect a person might have made a mistake or admitted they didn’t know everything, then jump out and yell “HA! You don’t know a specific thing, therefore everything you said is invalid! Do your own research to see if you’re wrong or not, because I’m like too important to spend time explaining my own beliefs! PUBLIC. RECORD.”
Explain to me: if I were a libertarian, why the fuck would I try to hide it, anyway?
No, on second thought…don’t bother.
Quick, someone share the reddit copy pasta where the police officer does heroin in his police car.
Somebody already did.
But yeah, sorry, I couldn’t fit the worldview in a tweet.
So, since healthcare is one of those sacred industries that requires heavy government regulation to protect people, the life expectancy and health outcomes of Hong Kongers must have been abysmal, right? Well…no
Wasn’t the state of healthcare at the time somewhere between useless and actively harmful? Not much use in regulating what the experts of the day are completely wrong about.
Anyway my issue with much of the argumentation you’ve presented here, despite there being many reasonable points, is that most libertarians seem to simply not care at all whether their predictions of how well unfettered capitalism will go are realistic or true. It’s just talking points to them, because if they weren’t true, it would still be justified to favor absolute property rights over everything else. That’s what they really care about, the justice of no one getting to touch their stuff, and it outweighs everything else.
Which is frustrating, because despite their rare willingness to drill down into specifics, it’s a clear point of biased disingenuousness. If the only thing a point means to someone is that if it is made one way others might be persuaded of their cause, the incentive is to only understand it that particular way, and never realize or admit if it’s wrong.
My issue with the core ethos is, a person’s ability to opt out of things very often depends on how poor they are, and so if property is liberty, it’s only liberty for those with the property.
The state of healthcare in the 1960s through the 1990s? I mean, it wasn’t that bad. Life expectancy at the time was rising very quickly in developed countries–and in Hong Kong.
Libertarians can drive me crazy too, and I agree that a lot of them are driven by ideology, not practicality. And a lot of them can’t even make these arguments in defense of their own beliefs–they just come at it from a simple moral POV (“taxes are violence!”). But that’s not unique to libertarians: most people hold to ideologies they don’t fully understand, which is why they defend them rabidly with insults and attacks, instead of just explaining why they believe what they do. “I believe we should do this because it’s right, and I’ll get mad if you try to explain why it’s impractical, impossible, or counterproductive!” is an attitude I hear more often, if anything, from the Left.
And, well, in a libertarian world, your ability to opt out of things may depend, to some extent, on your wealth–but (they would say) it’s easier for people to get wealthy in general. And as I pointed out in my original post…well…no, it’s not really true. I opt out of Facebook and Microsoft and other ‘monopolies’, and I’m just fine. Why would that change? But I really, actually can’t opt out of the state, and the bigger the state gets the more restricted we are. So, the solution to “if the libertarians got their way, some people would be more free than others” is “we should significantly restrict freedom overall, for everybody”?
I was thinking of the 1800s, overlooked that you also were referring to more recently
These points seem pretty reasonable, wonder what’s wrong with them since you mentioned you’re not actually a libertarian?
You also mentioned businesses that tend to become monopolies, and more generally, there seem to be types of business that don’t really play well in a free market. One non-monopoly example could be antibiotics, since we’re all worse off the more they’re consumed. Another example is natural resources exploitation: competition won’t stop these resources from running out. I know close to nothing about economics but shouldn’t it be pretty straightforward to figure out which businesses or which business aspects are the ones that benefit from free market? It seems mostly a technical question.
I’m pro-gun control. I like public transit. I think cities should be organized to some extent. Countries that managed large-scale cooperation did much better during the pandemic. Global warming is hard to solve in a pure libertarian system. There are lots of reasons why I’m not a libertarian.
I wish it were nice and simple to identify where regulation helps and where it doesn’t, but it’s the source of endless debates.
The problem with that philosophy us that it ignores that corporations paid to have those regulations put in place to prevent free market competition. Libertarianism extolls the virtue of that kind of power over government.
Also, most regulations were written in blood when corporations did whatever they wanted to workers and communities in pursuit of profit. That had more rights than citizens, and now-thanks to libertarians- they have even more rights via Citizens United rulings.
Sorry, I have been a card-carrying member of the LP and read everything from Ayn Rand and I even still listen to Penn Jillette shows to this day, but I sobered up and have seen that libertarianism is absolute, vacuum-dwelling insanity. Even Penn doesn’t accept most of it any more.
It’s impossible to respond to all of your points, but I wanted to respond to one of them: part of the regulation is cartel law, which was needed because in a “free” (as in, no regulation) market, businesses did not in fact compete with each other to beat out their rivals, but they colluded with each other to keep prices high.
Because simple logic is that when perfect competition would be happening, then no one would earn any profit, since they would need to make their services/goods cheaper and cheaper to acquire market share, until no one has any margins or only one business is left that operates most efficiently. Both of these results have actually been happening.
Everyone in a market actually makes more profit if they don’t compete with each other and make prices arbitrarily fixed. (Or only one is left, in which case prices will again be arbitrary). This has been happening so much that regulation was needed. Regulation is what made the actual spirit behind a free market possible, because without it, it’d either be cartels or monopolies.
“free” market (as in, no regulation)
What!? No! That’s not what the free part refers to in the term “free market”.
A free market is one in which the actors are free to engage or not engage in business with others. The presence of a cartel is a step away from a free market because the existence of that cartel removes consumers’ freedom to choose between competing providers.
So how do you stop cartels from forming without regulation? How do you stop monopolies from forming when the only thing you need to create one is more capital than your competitors?
Sorry I missed your last question. I’m not sure that I agree that one can form a monopoly just by having to most capital of any player in the market.
How do you figure that?
You stop cartels from forming by keeping the market free, as in when the price fixing cartel pushes the prices way up, that creates incentive for new investors to enter the market.
Basically, as long as you don’t prevent entry into the market for new players, you prevent any permanent cartel formation. Any price fixing cartel creates an incentive structure that destroys their cartel.
In terms of preventing the cartel formation in the first place, really you just need a large and complex enough market that the communication/coordination problem is too big to solve. Like a price fixing cartel of two suppliers is way easier to form and maintain than a price fixing cartel of ten suppliers.
In our case, the reduction of the number of players in the market is the result of all the forcible shutting down of companies we did during 2020 and 2021. Whatever you say about lockdowns and their necessity, one side effect was the failure of small businesses all over the country.
It was like a mass extinction for business entities. As a result, our ecosystem is less healthy and resilient, more prone to shocks and deviations from the norm.
Over time, it will get better. Basically, slowly, new small businesses will be started and introduce competition for the big guys. But it’s a hard a long uphill climb to carve out a niche in an existing market. It takes a long time for all these relationships to form and calibrate themselves.
We lost of a lot of value — in the form of functioning enterprises that were the result of decades of work by dedicated people — when we tried to put the economy into medically-induced coma. Basically, by analogy, we underestimated our ability to keep it alive, and it suffered necrosis and atrophy, and now our economy is like a person struggling to rebuild their body after a severe period of suspended animation.
That’s why the free is in quotation marks.
By the way, there is NO situation in which competition is better than cooperation.
Your first paragraph shows how delusional you are. And the last confirms that you are indeed a liberal or libertarian. So it fits.
Don’t have any counterarguments? Don’t let that stop you! Just throw out some insults and act as though a serious reply is beneath you, given your superior understanding of the world. If confronted, gesture broadly at the comment you’re replying to and say something like “that third point you made is stupid!” Don’t bother elaborating or explaining why. Everybody will probably think you’re a professor of economics who’s just sick of explaining himself or something!
The very first sentence is borderline propaganda. It implies that lemmy is full of hard leftist when, in truth, there are as many liberals here. Why start with this sentence?
Then it follows with something like “I’m not a libertarian” or something along this line, “but”, which means it’ll actually be a long rent or propaganda to promote liberal views or critique the leftist views. And I wasn’t wrong, as the last paragraph showed.
I didn’t comment to talk about the political matter, but about the shape of the discourse. You are a hard liberal, but you pretend not to be. That’s either dishonest or delusional. Or at least that’s what your writing conveys.
OK, I just checked delusional definition, and maybe it’s not what I thought. I mean something like “convinced by an idea that is completely wrong”. If you have a better or less insulting word, I’ll gladly learn it.
Even most liberals love to dunk on libertarians.
I’m not a libertarian, because I don’t take my liberal views to the extremes that cross the line into libertarianism. But I find many of their arguments persuasive. And yes, I explicitly said I was going to play devil’s advocate, because it annoys me the way people dismiss a ridiculous parody of libertarianism and then act like they’ve made a real point.
I’m definitely a liberal, and I don’t deny it at all. I fit right in on /r/neoliberal on Reddit. That doesn’t make me a libertarian: I’m pro-gun control, pro-public transit, etc. I have lots of views that libertarians would absolutely hate.
that’s what your writing conveys.
You mean my devil’s advocacy? I think any intelligent person should be flexible enough to explain ideas they don’t fully agree with. If you can’t even explain an opinion you disagree with, you don’t actually disagree with it: you’ve just dismissed it in caricature.
It’s been my experience that libertarians are just conservatives that are too cowardly to commit to the bit.
I’ve encountered three stripes of Big-L Libertarians online (thankfully, they don’t seem to exist in Oz, they’re mostly Americans with too much free time):
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The Libertarian who is just a walking tax grievance. All he cares about is not paying taxes, it was how he got introduced to libertarianism, everything else is rationalising this point.
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The Libertarian who treats it like a model train set in his basement. Everything works perfectly in his head, all the systems snap together, and he doesn’t much care how it relates to an actual railway network in the real world. Libertarianism is more a neat little thought experiment for him than anything else. They have varying levels of commitment to implementing these ideas in the real world.
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Actual fucking psychopaths. Social Darwinists. These guys are the ones who go on about “freedom”, but they’re engaged in sleight of hand. When they say freedom, they mean the freedom of the strong to exploit the weak, and the freedom to starve in the gutter. They all seem to imagine themselves as temporarily-embarrassed millionaires and captains of industry, or ranchers who get to print their own money and turn people living on their land into neo-feudal serfs.
None of them have a satisfying answer for how their utopian power vacuum is supposed to be stable. Some know it isn’t, but can’t give the game away.
And of course any time any of them are presented with evidence of deregulation or privatisation having a negative human cost, they’ll also claim there’s a magical inflection point where things just weren’t deregulated or privatised enough: you have to give them everything they want first, then their theories will start to work, pinky-promise. And sometimes the psychos will say the quiet part out loud and will chide you for daring to bring morality and human suffering into an economic debate.
And yes, a lot of this language is gendered. No, it is not unnecessary. Yes, they are almost always dudes. No, I don’t know why.
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Is that an unpopular opinion? I thought that was the whole appeal, hence why most billionaires are libertarians.
That’s also basically the moral of the story of bioshock.
Instead the way to go about this is MORE democracy not less of it.
Agreed. Some good steps to take:
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Switching to approval/STAR voting (far fewer flaws than FPTP, generaly better than ranked)
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Requiring all companies to be worker owned democracies. We don’t accept dictators or monarchists in government, so why would we accept that kind of tyranny in our work?
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Shit loads of anti-corruption efforts. As of right now, politics is controlled with money, and politicians effectively get a free pass to use their office for personal gain. That shit needs to end.
You based motherfucker - have an upvote. I’d do it twice if I could.
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Libertarianism denies humanity. Exalting the individual as the basic unit of society is the political equivalent to a spherical cow in a vacuum. The human mind and body deteriorate in isolation; we need others to even think or be healthy.
The individual in isolation also happens to be the weakest political unit. It’s almost like the ruling class invented the an ideology for the serfs to demand feudalism. An ideology that not only rejects collective action, but short circuits any attempt. A group of libertarians is called an impasse.
Prioritizing the rational individual causes irrationality in society. Tens of thousands of rational decisions to go home at the same time lead to the irrationality of traffic.
Well, I wish it was more popular.
I love the concept of government, it’s a state mechanism that when it works correctly, society advances and everything works. The problem it, it require constant citizens involvement in order to keep it in check.
That’s pretty much any organization you can imagine. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
Libertarianism: “fuck you, got mine” disguised as a legitimate political ideology
Republicans that like to smoke weed.
Settle down, there, Braveheart 😂
🤣 😅
Is this really unpopular? I think it’s a very based anarchosyndicalist standpoint.
ASU nor KU
Are you French? Because they have some acronyms backwards (like UE)
Probably not French, USA is still USA (if anything it would be ÉUA) and UK is RU (Royaume Uni).
Which is very unpopular, outside of small Internet communities full of lefty nerds.
Not when the people actually understand the ideas, mind you, but most are happy on their factory settings.
Well, not happy. But not mad unless they’re starving.
Right, I should have specified “Is it really unpopular on lemmy”. On The Other Side, I wouldn’t be too sure
How can anyone take it seriously now of all times? Libertarianism in the modern day is being fronted by hack stand up comedians who ran out of material so they went with the political shtick to stay relevant. They don’t actually believe in anything other than enriching themselves
What comedians are you referring to?
Yeah but isn’t that just common sense for people outside libertarian circles? It’s not an unpopular opinion, it’s a logical conclusion.
Lots of people have been raised to think “government is bad” without any critical thoughts about what the alternatives to government would realistically be.
“Government is bad” has been a republican talking point since at least the 80s.
Companies are usually small dictatorships or even tyrannies. Handing them the power over all of society will only benefit the owners of these companies. The rest of society will basically be reduced to the status of slaves as they have no say over the direction of the society they maintain through their 9to5s.
Well said. It’s so weird how gullible people can be.
The problem is that no single person can educate themselves strongly enough on every potential topic. That’s why we’re supposed to have representatives to spend all day in a specific area of expertise. I could be jobless, and study this stuff all day every day, 24/7 and STILL not be educated enough to vote on a bill and claim to understand all of the nuances and interactions with society that would ripple out from that decision.
And have you seen society? Do you REALLY want some of these idiots voting? They don’t even care to educate themselves - so it’s easy to influence them with advertisements and campaigns.
The simple answer to this is that bills have no reason being drafted in language or length that cannot be reasonably explained to a layman.
In fact it is very well known that some legislation is drawn up with the intention of obfuscating its purpose, or some detail therein.
You raise some excellent points!
Incompetence is definitely a problem. I would counter that by saying: Just because somebody is competent, doesn’t mean they have good intentions. I mean somebody could be competent enough to do the right thing, but have bad intentions. In that case the competence of the representative does the voter no good.
You are right, like Churchill said 5 minutes of conversation with anybody are the best argument against democracy. And if you are horrified by some of the people who are voting, are you not at all worried of being ruled by such types exclusively?
I would not be worried about being “ruled” by those types, so long as we had protections in place that actually had teeth. We need a foundation where people doing shady shit are put in jail, especially if they reside in a place of power.
The FBI actually did a bribery-sting operation on our congress long ago and like half of congress failed it. So what happened? They made it illegal to run those sting operations on congress. That immediately should be repealed and congress-critters should be held accountable for their actions.
Well the US got trump because of a degenerate electorate : sufficiently detached from the issues by distraction and/or ignorance that they are unable make an informed vote .
If you don’t actually understand why you got Trumped, making shit up to explain it is the wrong approach and just leads to another Trump or worse.
The things that always gets thought about last is transparency, accountability, and separation of powers
