There has been 3 instances in over 60 years where it hasn’t been a QB or RB that won the award, and one of those is a kicker in a strike season. Nfl has almost effectively phased out the workhorse RB with all their rule changes towards the passing game for the past 25 years, so it is effectively only QB that can win it now.
You can probably find comparable seasons amongst those 65 years.
A lot of this could be redundant, if American sports would just have an award called “player of the year/season” instead.
I wasn’t even alive but John Elway winning in 1987 with 23 total TD Is still upsetting, Jerry Rice had 23 total as well.
Literally only way I see a non QB winning anymore is if a RB breaks the Season TD record , or a defender shatters the Sack/Interception record. And i mean Shatters, by like 5 or 6
You can say that all you want but if the Cowboys were faced with keeping either Bland or Dak, you’d make fun of them for ditching Dak. 5 pick sixes is cool, but in every game he’s had a pick six, they won by double digits. Sure, momentum is a thing, but take last night’s for an example. They win that game whether Bland plays or not. You can’t guarantee that of Dak doesn’t play.
Is it that crazy if Garrett conceivably gets 23, they have the best defense in at least a decade by most advanced stats, and the QB field at the end of the season is as bleak as it looks now? He’d definitely start getting votes, if only as a protest
He had two strip sacks that led to points, including 1 that was recovered in the endzone for a defensive TD, and blocked a field goal which also led to points, all in the same game against the Colts. A game we won by 1 point. And that’s not the only game he’s won for us.
In defense of '87 (even though it’s still a travesty Rice didn’t win), the only reason Elway won was because Montana and Rice split the vote due to being on the same team IIRC
Well it’s called MVP and in football by far the most valuable position is QB, so it’s not at all surprising that QBs should win it a lot. OPOY is wide open for non-QBs, especially if they tweaked the rules so you couldn’t vote for the same player at both MVP and OPOY.
I mean it has been won by other positions. But saying it’s less prestigious because it’s only won by QBs is a silly argument; as long as it’s called Most Valuable Player it actually should be won by QBs most of the time because QBs are by far the most valuable position. That’s just the nature of the sport. Nobody think the Ballon d’Or is redundant just because 90% of the time an attacking player wins it, they’re just more valuable in general and therefore better seasons are more impressive.
That’s a really good point. I saw stats from Dak this season and thought he might be a real MVP candidate, just because he’s probably been the best QB statistically. But, has he been an MVP? Man, I don’t think he’s been that good. He just looks good because there’s no real standout at QB. Should he get it over Garrett? Not in my opinion.
Forgetting salary cap for a minute, if the Browns could trade Myles Garrett for Patrick Mahomes straight up, right now, do you think they would hesitate for literally even a second?
I don’t think that’s how we should judge MVP. Mahomes would win every year wouldn’t he? Regardless of how he is playing because everyone knows he’s still the best and would trade any player in the league for him.
If you give the chiefs a league average defense, they’re prolly .500 or worse right now. If you give the browns a league average offense, they’re prolly 9-1
Okay but that’s not how, not has it ever been how the mvp works. Again, if it was, mahomes would have every mvp since he started playing. You think the ravens in 2019 woulda said no to a Lamar for mahomes?
Or the packers in 2020/21? That’s not how it works. You still have to perform and the chiefs are scoring 5 ppg in the second half right now.
The chiefs without mahomes? I’m thinking a few other quarterbacks could average 5 ppg in the second half. The chiefs stil have a top 5 defense. The browns have a bottom 5 offense and are on their 3rd qb of the year.
See I think JJ losing the MVP in 2012 and 2014 is kind of looked back upon now as missed opportunities, maybe it’s just the kind of media I follow but I think if they had to do it over again a lot of people would have changed their votes.
Also there’s never quite been a season like this where the progress of defenses have been so stark, and the MVP field from the QB position has been so bad. The story of the season is that defenses finally stepped up to the plate after years of what seemed like exponential growth on offense, and Garrett is the best defensive player in the league on the best defense in the league
According to pro football JJ wasn’t even the most valuable defender that year (Sherman). It’s pretty hard to argue against a RB that came within 9 yards of breaking the single season rushing record while also helping his team win 7 more games.
A lot of people have this thing about the mvp where they don’t care about the valuable part of the award and therefore don’t care if the guys team misses the playoffs it’s weird
it’s not that they don’t care, it’s that you can be valuable even if your team is shit. If your team is an 0-16 team without you and you carry them to 8-8 without the ball in your hands every offensive play you’re probably playing out of your mind
Yeah it’s not about how good the defensive player was necessarily in a given year. It’s the combination of a lack of clear cut number 1 QB + insane defensive player this year.
He isn’t having a historic outlier great season though. It’s not like he is also scoring tds, knocking down a ton of passes, forcing a lot of fumbles, or has ints. He is having a great yr, but you can make a strong case he don’t even the DPOY
2009 is the best argument for defenders not being allowed to win, as dominant as JJ was AP not only had a dominant 2000 yard season he also had the story and in 2014 Aaron did throw for 38 TDs to 5 picks.
This year there isnt really any dominant QB or RB play.
My JJ stuff was meant to be reasoning for why it kinda makes sense he didnt win it in 2012, 2009 I do agree is the best example of a weak year where a defensive player maybe should have won it
I 100% believed that JJ watt deserved MVP in 2014 he was a monster that year sure the Texans sucked but the way he played that year was a whole different level
They should accept that MVP is a “QB of the year” award and create next to it a new award (something like “most outstanding player”) for the best player of the season, regardless of position.
Thing is, the best QB will always be the “most valuable” player, in the current NFL, over any other position, no matter how outstanding the best Edge, WR or RB of the season might be. QB is a position of such outsized impact on the team, there’s no other parallel in any other team sport.
The only way to properly recognise and reward excellence in other positions is to get the concept of “valuable” out of the way.
I’d be fine with that (which segues into me forgetting 2021 Cooper Kupp.)
Again, obviously I’d rather have an elite QB on my team, but if we accept non-QBs can ever win the award under any circumstance, than a 2k receiver is a good choice.
2009, 2012, and 2014 kind of established that defenders cant get it anymore.
At least its looking like true QB only now, rather than RB being the only non-QB exception.
Donald in 2018 too
Weren’t they a below average defense in 2018?
Mahomes threw for 50 something TDs that year as a second year starter. He was going to win that award no matter how good a defensive player was
The reason it’s a discussion this year is the lack of elite QB play. It’s not comparable to those seasons
Poor kirkland
There has been 3 instances in over 60 years where it hasn’t been a QB or RB that won the award, and one of those is a kicker in a strike season. Nfl has almost effectively phased out the workhorse RB with all their rule changes towards the passing game for the past 25 years, so it is effectively only QB that can win it now. You can probably find comparable seasons amongst those 65 years.
A lot of this could be redundant, if American sports would just have an award called “player of the year/season” instead.
I wasn’t even alive but John Elway winning in 1987 with 23 total TD Is still upsetting, Jerry Rice had 23 total as well.
Literally only way I see a non QB winning anymore is if a RB breaks the Season TD record , or a defender shatters the Sack/Interception record. And i mean Shatters, by like 5 or 6
All records need to be shattered anymore to not have that (17 games)* on it
That bland guy on the cowboys should win tbh. And I’m a giants fan. I hate everything
You can say that all you want but if the Cowboys were faced with keeping either Bland or Dak, you’d make fun of them for ditching Dak. 5 pick sixes is cool, but in every game he’s had a pick six, they won by double digits. Sure, momentum is a thing, but take last night’s for an example. They win that game whether Bland plays or not. You can’t guarantee that of Dak doesn’t play.
Montana and Rice split the vote enough that Elway got it lol
I honestly think it would take a 27 sack season AND no standout QB for a defender to win.
Is it that crazy if Garrett conceivably gets 23, they have the best defense in at least a decade by most advanced stats, and the QB field at the end of the season is as bleak as it looks now? He’d definitely start getting votes, if only as a protest
Yes. Bland just set the record for pick 6s in a season. Mccaffrey might score 25 to 30 tds. Hill might have 2k receiving yds.
He would need score som tds or start going jj watt and swatting passes as well
He blocked a kick against us. Singlehandedly won that game.
And tj watt scored a td that won a game for the Steelers. He is also not mvp.
There are too many offensive players and also another defensive player that would make garrets selection confounding
He had two strip sacks that led to points, including 1 that was recovered in the endzone for a defensive TD, and blocked a field goal which also led to points, all in the same game against the Colts. A game we won by 1 point. And that’s not the only game he’s won for us.
That would eclipse the single season sack record by what, 4.5?
Jerry lost it because he and Montana split votes
In defense of '87 (even though it’s still a travesty Rice didn’t win), the only reason Elway won was because Montana and Rice split the vote due to being on the same team IIRC
Well it’s called MVP and in football by far the most valuable position is QB, so it’s not at all surprising that QBs should win it a lot. OPOY is wide open for non-QBs, especially if they tweaked the rules so you couldn’t vote for the same player at both MVP and OPOY.
The MVP is completely redundant because the All-Pro QB1 is always gonna win. That is why the system about it is flawed.
Let the most prestigious Awards be for everyone and the lesser awards be for positions.
I mean it has been won by other positions. But saying it’s less prestigious because it’s only won by QBs is a silly argument; as long as it’s called Most Valuable Player it actually should be won by QBs most of the time because QBs are by far the most valuable position. That’s just the nature of the sport. Nobody think the Ballon d’Or is redundant just because 90% of the time an attacking player wins it, they’re just more valuable in general and therefore better seasons are more impressive.
Even better, they could do one for offense and one for defense. Call it offensive/defensive player of the year.
It should be Most Outstanding Player, position agnostic, which would be the player who most far exceeds his peers.
Or say, Offensive Player of the Year??
There’s already Offensive and defensive player of the year
Yes, and that is not the same.
That’s a really good point. I saw stats from Dak this season and thought he might be a real MVP candidate, just because he’s probably been the best QB statistically. But, has he been an MVP? Man, I don’t think he’s been that good. He just looks good because there’s no real standout at QB. Should he get it over Garrett? Not in my opinion.
Garrett is on pace for 22 sacks.
Forgetting salary cap for a minute, if the Browns could trade Myles Garrett for Patrick Mahomes straight up, right now, do you think they would hesitate for literally even a second?
That’s based on his performance in other seasons though more than this one
I don’t think that’s how we should judge MVP. Mahomes would win every year wouldn’t he? Regardless of how he is playing because everyone knows he’s still the best and would trade any player in the league for him.
Yeah?
In no world do the browns not immediately take that trade
What about the world where they already have like $250M tied up at QB and can’t afford it?
Is the mvp now, who would you trade for in an instant? Cuz if so mahomes should be working on his 7th straight mvp
If you would instantly trade Player B for Player A, then wouldn’t you say that would make Player A more valuable?
If you give the chiefs a league average defense, they’re prolly .500 or worse right now. If you give the browns a league average offense, they’re prolly 9-1
They are a league average offense though. Browns are like first in the NFL in the run game (even without Nick Chubb).
Okay but that’s not how, not has it ever been how the mvp works. Again, if it was, mahomes would have every mvp since he started playing. You think the ravens in 2019 woulda said no to a Lamar for mahomes?
Or the packers in 2020/21? That’s not how it works. You still have to perform and the chiefs are scoring 5 ppg in the second half right now.
Who would be better off, the browns defense without Myles, or the Chiefs offense without Mahomes? There is one objectively true answer here.
The chiefs without mahomes? I’m thinking a few other quarterbacks could average 5 ppg in the second half. The chiefs stil have a top 5 defense. The browns have a bottom 5 offense and are on their 3rd qb of the year.
See I think JJ losing the MVP in 2012 and 2014 is kind of looked back upon now as missed opportunities, maybe it’s just the kind of media I follow but I think if they had to do it over again a lot of people would have changed their votes.
Also there’s never quite been a season like this where the progress of defenses have been so stark, and the MVP field from the QB position has been so bad. The story of the season is that defenses finally stepped up to the plate after years of what seemed like exponential growth on offense, and Garrett is the best defensive player in the league on the best defense in the league
According to pro football JJ wasn’t even the most valuable defender that year (Sherman). It’s pretty hard to argue against a RB that came within 9 yards of breaking the single season rushing record while also helping his team win 7 more games.
Do you mean “Orange Peanut”
Rodgers was more valuable in 2014 than JJ Watt. He did more for his team to win games
Unbelievable to me that people think JJ should have been MVP on a team that didn’t make the playoffs.
A lot of people have this thing about the mvp where they don’t care about the valuable part of the award and therefore don’t care if the guys team misses the playoffs it’s weird
it’s not that they don’t care, it’s that you can be valuable even if your team is shit. If your team is an 0-16 team without you and you carry them to 8-8 without the ball in your hands every offensive play you’re probably playing out of your mind
I think people REALLY want a defensive player to win MVP, to the point where they just ignore any logic around it.
2014 Rodgers deserved it over Watt, that was an insane season he put up. Much better season than any qb in the league right now is having
Yeah it’s not about how good the defensive player was necessarily in a given year. It’s the combination of a lack of clear cut number 1 QB + insane defensive player this year.
He was basically the clear cut best qb and had the upper hand over Romo
The thing about 2014 is that no player is ever gonna win MVP if their team isn’t in the playoffs, as unfair as that is to Watt
Watts team didn’t even make the playoffs. Browns are at 3 wins max right now without Myles.
Romo deserved it over Rodgers.
Romo was great, but Rodgers did so much more. Plus 38/5 beats out 34/9 any day of the week
It’s true Rodgers had him beat on td-int ratio, but Romo had the higher y/a and passer rating, all while having to deal with Garrett as a coach.
I’m not saying 2014 Watt was more valuable, or even contradicting that QBs should get it.
I’m saying that if 2012/14 Watt and 2009 Revis weren’t enough, nothing can be.
Brees and manning had some crazy seasons in 2009
He isn’t having a historic outlier great season though. It’s not like he is also scoring tds, knocking down a ton of passes, forcing a lot of fumbles, or has ints. He is having a great yr, but you can make a strong case he don’t even the DPOY
2009 is the best argument for defenders not being allowed to win, as dominant as JJ was AP not only had a dominant 2000 yard season he also had the story and in 2014 Aaron did throw for 38 TDs to 5 picks.
This year there isnt really any dominant QB or RB play.
*2012
I was talking about Revis for 2009.
My JJ stuff was meant to be reasoning for why it kinda makes sense he didnt win it in 2012, 2009 I do agree is the best example of a weak year where a defensive player maybe should have won it
If JJ Watt didn’t win it then a defender never will again.
I 100% believed that JJ watt deserved MVP in 2014 he was a monster that year sure the Texans sucked but the way he played that year was a whole different level
how valuable is that “whole different level” of play if it doesnt translate to wins
They should accept that MVP is a “QB of the year” award and create next to it a new award (something like “most outstanding player”) for the best player of the season, regardless of position.
Or make a qb of the year award and start giving players that aren’t quarterbacks the MVP.
Thing is, the best QB will always be the “most valuable” player, in the current NFL, over any other position, no matter how outstanding the best Edge, WR or RB of the season might be. QB is a position of such outsized impact on the team, there’s no other parallel in any other team sport.
The only way to properly recognise and reward excellence in other positions is to get the concept of “valuable” out of the way.
Or you separate QBs who have higher positional value, and reward the Most Valuable Players at the other 21 positions. MVQB and MVP.
Perhaps one for offense and one for defense? You could even call them something fun like offensive and defensive player of the year!
If Tyreek hits 2k yards, then give it to him lol.
I’d be fine with that (which segues into me forgetting 2021 Cooper Kupp.)
Again, obviously I’d rather have an elite QB on my team, but if we accept non-QBs can ever win the award under any circumstance, than a 2k receiver is a good choice.
how valuable can you really be if you cant even get your team to the playoffs in the fucking AFCS of all divisions