It’s fairly common to see comments that suggest Getsy’s scheme is bad, but no one ever explains why it’s bad. People also mention we throw too many screens without explaining what we should run instead. What makes the scheme bad? We had the best running game in the league last year. Surely something is good?
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All offensive schemes with crappy qb play suck. It’s pretty simple.
Fields can’t run a quick passing offense which eliminates 50% of a complete offense. Anticipatory throws just don’t happen with him.
Bagent is just a rookie, an undrafted one. .
There was a thread like this a couple weeks ago and I tried to give a detailed breakdown in that thread. Here’s what I had written:
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Routes beyond 10 yards that don’t resolve quick enough. If you look at simple routes like a curl route, as an example, Getsy often has receives going 20+ yards downfield before curling. Similarly if he draws up a hook, it resolves in a similarly slow fashion. That means the average time for a receiver to be ready to catch the ball increases, and Fields has to continue to hold the ball before throwing it or has to run it out.
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Routes that do not innovate. Most of the routes Getsy draws up are very vanilla. It’s readily apparent to most defenders what is going on, so coverage becomes trivial. A stud like DJ can still make something out of these routes, as he can physically beat the defender, but most receivers cannot. Until we start drawing up plays that resolve in unusual ways to create better windows, and have them resolve quicker, it becomes harder for a QB to excel.
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Too many plays behind the LoS. We’ve all seen the million “WHY ARE WE RUNNING ANOTHER SCREEN” comments. This is a real problem when you have an athletic QB like Fields. His strength comes in being able to use his legs if the routes downfield don’t open up. If we have all of our eligible receives behind the LoS to receive and block, the D can bring a lot of pressure and ensure Fields is ineffective. These types of plays work well for a prototypical pocket passer like Bagent, but do not work in large quantities for a mobile QB like Fields.
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Time to throw. This one is a mixed bag. Fields does take too long on his reads at times. However, in a lot of situations people in this sub attribute to him just not making reads quick enough, the routes simply aren’t resolved so the receiver is not ready to receive the ball. Anticipating the receiver in some of those situations could help, so the ball is there as they turn, but in a fair amount of these scenarios Getsy has not drawn up the play for the receiver to be ready. That means Fields is holding the ball longer than needed to wait for the downfield shot, which is one of his strengths. Again, Getsy scheming for more of a prototypical game manager/pocket passer style is hurting the ability of Fields to really strike downfield consistently.
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Getsy comes from a tree that has repeatedly shown it was reliant on the skill of a HoF QB and not the skill of the coaches. This one should be obvious, but if you look at people from this tree like Hackett and Getsy, neither of them are translating well to coaching other teams. Hackett took Russell Wilson, who just came from a team where he routinely dominated the opposition, and made him look like he shouldn’t be starting. Getsy took one of the most athletic QB prospects in the last decade and has built a system that just does not work for him. A lot of people here are quick to dismiss coaching, but we’re seeing objective examples of this coaching tree failing over and over again on other teams. It is becoming crystal clear to people that Rodgers hid the ineffectiveness of his coaches since he was already a developed and polished QB by the time they came in to coach him. Now they are being exposed when trying to replicate that system elsewhere since they did not actually develop their QBs. It is also well known that Rodgers would call his own plays from the huddle often, negating the OC’s scheme. This is another factor that masked the ineffectiveness of offensive coaches from this tree.
There’s a lot more to it, but in effect we have a fundamental flaw where our OC wants to design plays for a pocket passer. Our QB is not a pocket passer, and shows his greatest strengths when he can effectively use his legs and create defensive openings for downfield strikes. If we were to swap coaches to someone who can design plays more around Fields strengths, we would see a greater production on offense more consistently. In addition, we have to acknowledge Fields still has areas to develop and a coach with more knowledge of developing players like Fields could help expedite that process.
TL/DR: our OC is underqualified and a mismatch to the type of QB we have. As a result, we’re seeing development that is slower than it should be. Bringing in talent that has proven it can develop this type of QB would be a game changer
I disagree with most of this.
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You want long routes that resolve quickly? That’s self-contradictory. The nature of long routes is that they do not resolve quickly.
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I’m not sure what an “innovative” route would look like. There’s only so many ways to run an offense.
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In theory, yes, those sorts of longer developing routes would be what you would want with an athletic QB. But the problem is Fields *isn’t* good at the playcalling you want, despite being an athletic running threat. He has poor pocket awareness, a brutal internal clock, and a tendency to take his eyes off of the downfield when pressured. Unironically, if you want to run this kind of offense, you want Caleb Williams.
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Sorry, this one’s all on Fields. As proven by what Bagent has been able to do.
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is pretty much true. But not because Getsy is particularly bad. Because any offense needs a great QB to be consistently successful long-term in the NFL. QB is simply way more important than OC.
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This guy again?!? This is awful in so many ways. Copy paste?
Do you have all-22?
Just to play devils advocate here; You stated that the plays take too long to develop but you also said our qb plays best when he can extend plays to let them develop. It seems to me those are opposing ideologies. Fields should, in theory, be able to extend the play to get to those longer routes that you say take longer to come open.
Why should we trust your opinions over someone coaching in the NFL? Not trying to pick a fight, I just want to know why I should believe anything you say.
You shouldn’t. Honestly. This is something I would encourage everyone to research themselves and form their own opinions. There is no “right” answer. It’s an incredibly subjective topic and all each one of us can do is look at the objective information along with all the subjective and try to form a good, educated opinion.
It’s even more upsetting because Getsy was able to make a transition last year and embrace Field’s running ability. That also minimized to an extent our subpar o-line. But now it’s like last year didn’t even happen, and we’re back to trying to turn Justin into Peyton Manning.
Conversely, that scheme that Getsy stole from last year (the Ravens) have replaced that system with one that is more pass heavy. And LaMar is playing like an MVP while still embracing his running ability. So it can be done, but it takes innovative and pliable coaching.
- Getsy comes from a tree that has repeatedly shown it was reliant on the skill of a HoF QB and not the skill of the coaches.…
Sorry… wut ?
The Shanahan tree is as tried and proven as literally any offensive tree that comes to mind. You list Hackett and Getsy, both playcallers who were not *directly * involved in that tree of which included Kyle, Sean, and both LaFleur brothers (or even KOC if you wanna be a little more indirect on that tree) back in WSH. Wtf are you on about…?
The question remains why Getsy doesn’t change his scheme to cater Fields then? Shouldn’t this be obvious?
Honestly, I love the analogy to Trubisky (even though this sun HATES it bc we’ve somehow anointed Fields as “way better” than Trubisky [despite Fields statistically and winning record both doing NOTHING to back that up [[besides RUNNING his ass off in a tank season]]) in that Matt Nagy did the SAME exact thing…
Say what you will about Mitch. But, dude went what? 12-4? Made the Pro Bowl. If not for Parkey with the double doink we were sooo dangerous that year in the playoffs (PLAYOFFS, remember those?)
But Matt Nagy just would NOT trailer that offense to Trubisky’s talents. He spent the entire next season throwing Mitch under the bus and talking about how he couldn’t run “his system”…
These coaches think it’s all about them lately. Fuck your “systems”…coach the PLAYERS that you have to WIN games however you can.
Fact is, Fields can NOT read coverages and make progressive reads. I’m sorry, he can’t. It’s settled.
Fields is like a poor man’s Lamar Jackson. Honestly, he’s a better runner than L. Jackson. So, (this should’ve started two years ago) let’s STOP trying to be a pocket passer running “a system” and let’s fucking ride the pony that we have.
Kamikaze RPO’s, strong side off tackle runs, bootlegs out to crossing routes were you’ve space to run if it’s not looking great, set up PLAYACTION, more quick slants that can develop a bit and not get jumped routes because the QB is rolling out to the same side the receiver is running to…yada yada.
Coach to what this kid can do.
Personally, I think it’s time to move on. But that’s what we should’ve been doing
You never responded to me.
305 total pass attempts this seasons.
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Routes beyond 10 yards. How many 20 yard curls did he run? Exactly how many? You at often, what % of the 305 total attempts where curls?
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Specifically, how many routes did not innovate? Specifics. You can’t say “he has routes that do not innovate” and give zero specifics and quantitative analysis of when these occur. I’ve seen plenty of wide open WRs. Must be innovate enough.
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As I mentioned in the chargers game, they ran 5 screens before half and bears ran 1. What is the standard number of screens per game in the nfl today? If bears run equal to or less then this is a bs explanation.
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Bagent has been sacked 4 times in 4 games. Might say more about fields who also had the highest sack rate at OSU.
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Weak. If Phil Jackson is coaching a d-league nba team he isn’t going to turn one of those players into Jordan or Bryant. Coaches get fired for bad qb play. Blame it on whatever you want, but 99% of coaches who get fired are due to bad qb play. Coaches that have a baller qb last a long time in this league. Only if they fail to win the SB after several play off runs do they get canned… always ride or die by the qb.
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I’ll embellish this a little with some stuff I’ve picked up on:
- the rhythm is off. JF was slow in the drop back so when receivers make a cut to create a window, his feet aren’t set and he’s not through the progression to see it. The best way I can explain this is actually the Kelce’s New Heights podcast, the Gronk episode. Gronk talks about working on his routes with Brady so a typical 10 yard curl actually has the receiver curl at 8 yards because that’s when Tom was done with his drop back. If you’ve watched any of the QB school videos, he talks about this too. This is how you make anticipation throws, if you’re under pressure and you know when your receiver is going to turn, you can throw it and know they will be there when the ball arrives.
- Checkdown. There is a time and place for a check down. If DJ Moore is one on one on the outside and has 1 yard of separation, throw it. Trust your guy, make the pass. Look what happened in the Washington game.
- Throw the ball away. JF and Bagent were both guilty of hero ball. And I know his name is taboo in this sub but that’s one of the reasons Aaron Rodgers was so good. He extended the play with his legs to try and help the receivers create some separation, and if nothing developed he would just toss it out of bounds. You can find numerous interviews of defensive players and coaches talking about this part of his game. Punts are better than turnovers.
- As mentioned, the play calling is questionable. Why are we running so many screens with the same front and same looks? Defenses are sniffing this out a mile away.
- Too many elementary concepts. There is little to no creativity in the play calling that gives any spark or makes defenses question it. Adding things like RPOs, Read Action, Play Actions, more motion before the snap, designed decoys would help.
- Communication. Offensive lineman missing blocks, receivers running the same routes, etc. they need to talk and communicate directional blocking and assignments.
It looks to me rhythm is usually off in the opposite way. Fields is slow to the drop, but we run a lot of long routes. Fields gets to the back foot and receivers haven’t even made their cut yet.
I’m just so fucking sick of all of our offensive play callers constantly calling screens and 8-10 yard curls. Just so bland and allows for minimal yards after the catch unless someone on the defense really fucks up.
This is a great write-up, and the TLDR part is why I think Poles has to go. This whole team is a mismatch. It started with hiring Flus, a conservative, 4-3, defensive coach for a team that was not strong defensively and ran a 3-4. That move alone increased the amount of rebuild time. Then, Flus’s antiquated defense requires a 3-tech to function, but instead, we bring in defensive ends and corners. Julius fucking Peppers didn’t dominate in this defense. I think he had 1 season in the low double digits. Poles totally botched getting this team aligned, and he continues to do so. That is why I don’t believe he deserves another chance. His approach is too moneyball-ish. He did a good job recouping draft capital and fixing the cap, but he never fully committed to helping Fields, thus setting the franchise backward even further.
All of these were reasons we fired Nagy as well. A core issue in this franchise has been the historically inept ability to understand and build offenses. Both of our SB appearances required historic defenses and HOF skill players. 85 obviously had Walter fucking Payton. ‘06 had Hester.
Insert that corny “insanity is trying the same thing over and over…” quote here
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It’s the qb
Bad scheme and bad players makes for a disaster
That’s honestly an interesting question. It’s what makes football fun.
Why does a team suck? Why is it good?
The answer really is “we don’t fully know.”
Is the scheme not fitting Justin’s playstyle? Or is Justin unable to do more, and the scheme has to be reduced because of it? We don’t know.
I think Getsy’s dream scheme is what we saw with Bagent. Quick throws, run, move the ball and create chances to take that shot. But maybe he had that system in place for a D2 QB making his first four starts, and when Fields comes back he loosens the play calls up.
We had that question with Nagy and Trubisky, and the answer ultimately was “both were bad.” Trubs never caught on, Nagy seemingly is hamstringing a talented chiefs offense.
We won’t know “why” the team is bad until a few years later. Maybe it’s Getsy’s scheme limiting our playmakers. Maybe our playmakers aren’t able to do what Getsy wants. Maybe the whole thing is bad. Maybe when fields comes back a switch gets flipped, and the offense flows better.
Idk lol.
It’s super generic and basic and makes it easy for defenses to adjust and stop whatever is working.
The offensive scheme is perfectly fine. 99% of it is the same complaints that every fan of every team does when their team isn’t winning.
The average redditor knows almost nothing about NFL schemes and why they are run the way they’re run. “Luke Getsy is the stupidest person on earth” is just score callers venting their big emotions.
Half of the posters seem to think that offensive coordinator calls a single play and forced the QB to follow it exactly, not understanding that modern NFL offenses run checks and hots and options and choice routes, the play you see on the field can be changed and altered a half-dozen different ways between the moment it’s called and first few seconds after snap.
We’ve got a QB1 who is possibly the worst I’ve ever seen at making pre-snap and post-snap reads, and a QB2 who can’t be trusted to make intermediate throws, let alone push defenses deep. There’s no magic mad genius out there who is gonna know exactly which plays to call to make that work consistently.
If someone wants to blame the coaching staff for the penalties and botched assignments, go nuts. If they get fired and replaced at the end of the season, I won’t be sad. You can even argue that it’s the coaches’ fault fields can’t read a defense because they should have taught him better, sure that’s plausible.
But the scheme itself? Nothing wrong with it
QB
Ngl, after seeing some of the YouTubers on fields and Bagent, they don’t get the ball out enough. Some of these WRs are open as hell, and fields and Bagent don’t pull the trigger.
I’ll just say, getsys offensive play calling is so bland, so boring, so predictable and so routine that my only conclusion is that his hire is a hit job by the packers to slam the window on Justin fields. There is a reason that packers fans celebrated him leaving.
Dude you have these guy’s writing whole paragraphs now and that’s why nobody was explaining it just too much to write , hepatitis c is correct though I would just add that getsy doesn’t know when to call certain plays on certain situations football is a game of deception and he has none, I sit on my couch and know what plays are coming so defenses definitely know
3rd n 5 throw it 5 yards behind the line and hope you get 10
For one, I’ve never seen so many screen plays in life and it’s back to back when it doesn’t work. We have a running game, USE IT!
It’s easy to look like you could be competent when your most significant job prior was Aaron Rodgers’ qb coach.
Mainly because we have bad QBs