Intel might have slipped that Windows 12 is indeed coming next year | Company CFO sees benefits of a coming “Windows Refresh”::undefined
new versions of windows just kind of feel like new phones now. It’s good but… who cares?
I can remember as a teen and upgrading from windows 98 to XP felt like jumping into the future.
Or, more recently, getting the first samsung galaxy after having a basic candybar phone.Just seems like more of the same all while charging an arm and a leg for it.
May not be more of the same this time around
The very start of that article:
October 6 Update: A newly published report has clarified that the discovered code bits are not related to Windows “12.” Also, the next-gen Windows version will not require a subscription.
Isn’t windows 11 still… unfinished?
Everything is unfinished in Microsoft world. Not even joking.
I’m not thinking about upgrading until W11 is 50-60% market share and they actually have to take bugs seriously
Is any piece of software ever truly finished?
Not when its from ms
As long as 10 is supported, I’m not updating. At least I’m not hammered with ads like on 11.
If 10 is sunset, I’ll probably switch back to Linux. I rarely game on my laptop anyway.
Out of like 1000 games I can play about 997 on linux, you’ll probably be fine on linux even gaming now
Microsoft already announced Windows 10 will no longer be supported in Oct 2025
If you game via Steam, there’s a good chance you can use their Proton layer to play Windows games on Linux.
Ive played wow on linux without an issue as well
Lutris is great!
Installation was a bit tricky but following the guide… easy peasy.
My gaming rig is linux and it’s only sorta inconvenient
It is a healthy way to look at it, since by the time 10 isn’t supported, 11 will be relatively bug free.
windows 11 isnt even the majority of installs yet and they’re trying to push for windows 12? They tried doing “windows as a service” with Windows 10 but that never really manifested either.
I know people whine that Linux users always harp on about Linux, but there’s a better alternative to having a £100 tax on every new laptop you buy, or having to buy a new license every time you upgrade a PC a little too much in one go. Or being locked out of security updates because you dont want to subject your system to adware.
And with the Steam Deck entering the picture, we have a huge company like valve making it even easier to jump ship now. Its the ship jump I used
I love how it’s not even Valve directly, they just threw a huge pile of cash at the Wine team and said “go nuts”, and it’s been a boon for the entirely community.
Microsoft might be leaning into an old reputation. Windows 95 was crap, Windows 98 fixes it. Windows ME was crap, Windows XP fixes it. Windows Vista was crap, Windows 7 fixes it.
They might be expecting that people think Windows 11 was crap in the same way Windows ME or Vista was crap, and they’ll flock to Windows 12. But it’s not like Windows 11 is horribly broken like that. The actual problem is that Windows 11 doesn’t give many compelling reasons to upgrade over 10, and it has a bunch of useless bloat.
As a developer, having WSL2 open up X11 apps without having to jump through hoops of running an X server on Windows is quite nice. Other than that, I don’t know why I’d bother.
In actuality 98 was crap until SE and XP was crap until SP2.
I don’t think Microsoft charges OEMs remotely close to full price for OEM licenses, so it’s more like a $10 tax, but I agree with everything else here
Its lower. Businesses basically pay a subscription for the ability to generate keys. So of course if you have a large business, the subscription is trivial in the grand scale of things.
Its similar to how game companies work with pc cafes in asia. They dont pay for all the games they host, some they pay a sub to generate accounts for people who pay for the cafe rental times. Its a vital feature for paid games with a focus on multiplayer (e.g Overwatch 1 worked like that in China)
Probably depends on the SKU (They probably give discounts if you preinstall) but for some Lenovo models where the OS is optional the price to the consumer is £80 which is 75% a typical license.
Yeah pretty weird, considering 11 still feels kinda half baked.
Didn’t the same happen with Windows 7 and 8.1?
Most were still using 7 when 10 was released.
Microsoft and the consumers will be fine.
And no, it still isn’t the year of Linux. Back in 2016 it had somewhat of a chance, but not anymore. And neither with the Windows 12 launch, sorry.
Sure but 8 and 8.1 were famously unpopular though (even though I personally enjoyed the Metro design language).
Windows 11 seems to be received generally well, but what’s the push to upgrade now? Windows 10 being as good as it was has turned it into another 7/XP.
It’s gonna be a slowwwww march for any alternative but Windows doesnt have the benefit of being the best by default anymore – it has to work for it.
There are a few factors at play, I think.
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Microsoft isn’t nearly being as aggressive about pushing free Windows 11 upgrades as they were with Windows 10. Windows Update will offer it to you, but not install it unless you explicitly opt-in.
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Windows 11’s system requirements of a processor from the last 5 years plus TPM being enabled (it was off by default on most motherboards bought before 2022) leaves a lot of users not even being offered the upgrade (they can manually upgrade after jumping through some hoops).
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Windows 10 is still actively supported and will be for a while, removing any impetus for users or organizations to upgrade unless they specifically need some of the new features.
All of this adds up to a substantial portion of Windows 11 installs likely being new machines rather than upgrades.
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The steam deck got me used to Linux, I personally am never going back to Windows
I haven’t even bothered “upgrading” to windows 11 because it still looks terrible.
My work computers have it installed so I use it all the time it’s not bad, it just doesn’t bring anything good to the table. It’s basically a visual update.
Yeah, but I dislike the visual update.
Yep. Hate the curved edges.
There a way to set it back to angled edges without the use of a 3rd party app?
I think you can change it in themes, but I can’t check it because work computers are so locked down.
The one thing I love is the new snapping options of you hover over the maximize button.
So with zero first hand experience then? You’re refusing to upgrade based on memes and conjecture alone.
Sure, you’re well within your right to do so, but it’s not a great system to live life by. People are far more vocal about bad experiences than good ones. Windows 11 has been awesome for me, and as a developer and gamer, I’m on my PC and Mac far longer than the average user. I’ve not had any issues with windows 11 since it came out; the issues with the start menu and whatnot. It feels like it’s cool nowadays to moan about Microsoft products when the reality just doesn’t reflect those complaints.
Try it out for yourself. It’s actually a really good OS: I prefer it over MacOS Sonoma anyday. My dad, who is ‘afraid’ to touch computers in fear of breaking them, told me just last night how much easier Win11 is to use than Win10.
If after all that you still hate it, well, at least then you’ve made an informed decision!
I have it on my work PC, I was talking about not installing it on my home PC.
That’s great, but there are valid concerns about other people’s use cases
I can’t install it on my laptop because it has a hard drive. Immediately not something you can use - it scans files out of the box, making the system unusable. It doesn’t let you just disable it without taking drastic steps, but disabling some features requires group policy. If you use some hacks to disable things, randomly other things break. For example, disabling the firewall breaks Windows Update (?!)
The last good version was Windows 7 where you could actually do 99% of things you wanted with Home edition without any issue.
just because you like it doesn’t mean I have to enjoy using the spyware and windows 11 has been way worse for gaming then 10
My computer is 11 and I hate it more than any previous windows. Each newer version of windows removes features that previous ones had and makes customizing more and more annoying to do. Now that the Steam Deck has got me used to Linux, I wont be coming back to Windows whenever I upgrade my desktop
So with zero first hand experience then You’re refusing to upgrade based on memes and conjecture alone.
Sure, you’re well within your right to do so, but it’s not a great system to live life by. People are far more vocal about bad experiences than good ones. RedStar OS has been awesome for me, and as a developer and gamer, I’m on my PC and Mac far longer than the average user. I’ve not had any issues with RedStar OS since it came out; the issues with the start menu and whatnot. It feels like it’s cool nowadays to moan about North Korea products when the reality just doesn’t reflect those complaints.
Try it out for yourself. It’s actually a really good OS: I prefer it over Windows anyday. My dad, who is ‘afraid’ to touch computers in fear of breaking them, told me just last night how much easier RedStar 11 is to use than RedStar 10.
If after all that you still hate it, well, at least then you’ve made an informed decision!
Thank you, ChatGPT.
I see no compelling reason to accept this “upgrade.”
That’s why it’ll end up beig forced on people. Just like what’s happened with 11. And 10 before it. Didn’t happen to everyone, but there were lots of complaints about it happening.
If it’s forced and also needs a subscription, quite a lot of people will leave for the alternatives.
There are more sinister ways to force people to do something than just outright requiring. People seem to have forgotten, or never knew, that time when new DirectX was supported only on Win7 and didn’t work on previous versions mysteriously, but all new games required it. WIndows 7 didn’t see such a huge adoption naturally. Same thing when new Office is released file format changes just enough so that old Office doesn’t support new files, but new Office supports all the formats, so people would end up upgrading. Otherwise majority of people don’t need more than configuring margins, fond sizes and bold.
But will they though? They should, but will they? I predict only very very very few will.
Time for Linux 2.0
I agree with what Plopp said. The logical response is “fuck that” and move on to something, ANYTHING, else. But we should know by now that most people will just suck it up because it’s too much effort to learn something new.
And 7 before it. And XP before it… Moot point really.
I don’t remember XP or 7 being installed automatically on anyone’s PCs. That was what I was referring to in my previous comment. The “upgrade” to 10 and I think 11 happened automatically, without consent, on some people’s PCs.
I don’t remember 11 being installed on my pc automatically. I’ve waited for over a year before i had to click multiple times to get the upgrade to 11.
I don’t remember 10 being installed automatically over my 7.Read the first few paragraphs of your source. Nothing was forced.
Thanks for agreeing with me.You stopped too early
For a time, clicking the “X” in the upper right corner of the Windows 10 upgrade prompt window was interpreted as consent to upgrade to the new operating system. The typical expectation for all users is that clicking the “X” ends the program, and in fact, doing so was the only way to reject the free upgrade offer for most of the pop-ups notification’s existence. The same prompt could upgrade your system to Windows 10 without explicit consent if you left you computer on for an extended period, as well. PCWorld received hundreds of reader complaints about “forced” Windows 10 after Microsoft began using those tactics.
The quotes are there because there was always technically a way available to avoid the upgrade, but there are two distinct instances listed of users being upgraded without consent.
A new version of windows coming next year isn’t really shocking news.
But Windows 10 was supposed to be the last version, they said so. 🙄
It was for me.
I use Arch btw.
Love Arch Linux! Been running it for over a decade now.
I don’t use Arch, I only said that because “I use Fedora on my laptop and Pop!_OS on my desktop btw” doesn’t really roll off the tongue
Fedora is a great distro! I’m a web developer and I run it on my work laptop. I do run Arch on my personal laptop though because I like to learn and tinker with Linux and Arch is my perfect balance of just works and DIY, though I have been eyeing void a bit recently
No worries, always get excited when I see someone mention Arch. Been running it so long, it’s always fun to run into others using it outside the Arch community
I use NixOS FWIW
Promise?
No
Fair enough.
Microsoft’s marketing department be like “no fucking way you’re getting rid of major version numbers. I don’t care if you’re just tacking shit onto Windows 10, people spend money when there is a big splashy number or release name.”
I dont find it shocking but I do find it odd they’d release a new one so soon. Hasn’t W11 only been out for a year or so?
October 2021, so two years
… pretty much proof positive that win 12 will be subscription-based IMO
I wonder if they will provide a “Windows 13” after that.
And another thing in Windows I am waiting for is the moment when they encrypt all your data “for security”, then blackmail you into a subscription service where you can only access your files while you pay your monthly dues. And how long it will take for this being hacked in a way that hackers, microsoft, and the relevant government agencies can all read your data, and you can not.
That won’t happen, or they will get banned in the entire EU.
That would be nice, but it won’t happen. Too many things are sadly hanging on “runs on windows”.
Fucking fix your bloated background service’s, every update they add more and more services and background applications that serve little purpose, like the touch screen service that’s running on my fucking desktop that only has a mouse and keyboard
another thing that annoyed me was the useless setting page, when control panel worked fine.
especially since you end up needing to get to control panel to do anything anyway
Don’t worry! Control panel is being slowly phased out in favor of the settings.
“slowly”
Just like that one Windows setting with UI elements from Windows 3.1 . Control panel will probably be phased out in 20-30 years
Do you know where I can find a good list of all the Windows bloatware I can delete? I got most of the obvious ones but I’m thinking of less known ones like 3D viewer
Any bets on this Refresh not supporting 8th-gen and below Intel chips except the Surface Studio for “reasons”?
Still peeved my 5930K isn’t supported, despite still being petty capable.
rumored to be an enterprise tier “windows in the cloud” solution . But that doesn’t mean there won’t be an offline solition personal OS where u have basic functionality with ads on the desktop. If you know win11 and xbox new startmenus, expect more of those unmovable ad spots…sorry recommendations
But why.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they dropped the TPM requirement to increase adoption
True but basically everything hardware-wise has tpm now. Probably just let the rest of the stuff age-out
Removed by mod
Yup. That’s me. Hahaha
windows refreshcash grabThank god my PC doesn’t have a TPM.
Otherwise, I am just waiting for some industrial software to be usable on Linux (they’re migrating now!) so I can finally drop Windows for good.
Why would you thank God your PC doesn’t have a useful hardware feature?
What advantage does a TPM chip hold for me as a user? In most cases it seems to be used to take control away from me.
They’re a weird case, but they’re able to basically improve boot validation, they can store keys, and they can act as an improved secure random number generator.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Trusted_Platform_Module#Using_TPM_2.0
A TPM is just a piece of hardware, just because you don’t like how Microsoft used it … doesn’t mean it’s some technology for oppression or something. At worst, you can just not use it.
That said, TPMs are supposed to have manufacturer signed keys. TPMs could conceivably be used to properly block someone cheating in an online game from returning (i.e. a “hardware ban”) since the crypto can’t be spoofed (like an IP, MAC address, or serial numbers).
A TPM is just a piece of hardware, just because you don’t like how Microsoft used it … doesn’t mean it’s some technology for oppression or something. At worst, you can just not use it.
That’s pretty terrible argumentation. All DRM measures are just “a piece of hardware” in the end, yet I’m forced by Microsoft to install a TPM2 module to use their latest software. How long until I no longer have the choice not to use it, even on a free OS?
That said, TPMs are supposed to have manufacturer signed keys.
And since I can’t change those keys and can’t look into the module, it can literally be used for oppression.
TPMs could conceivably be used to properly block someone cheating in an online game from returning (i.e. a “hardware ban”) since the crypto can’t be spoofed (like an IP, MAC address, or serial numbers).
Great example. Now imagine a centralized block list by the government for all major web services, for which the infrastructure is literally there now.
That’s pretty terrible argumentation. All DRM measures are just “a piece of hardware” in the end, yet I’m forced by Microsoft to install a TPM2 module to use their latest software. How long until I no longer have the choice not to use it, even on a free OS?
Your tinfoil hat is showing…
And since I can’t change those keys and can’t look into the module, it can literally be used for oppression.
IIRC you can store new keys in the TPM, they’re just not going to be signed by the manufacturer.
Great example. Now imagine a centralized block list by the government for all major web services, for which the infrastructure is literally there now.
That wouldn’t work… and isn’t how that works… That would require browser vendors to actually implement some kind of “here’s my TPM” handshake and websites to care enough to refuse service if you fail that validation.
If someone wanted to do that, they could do that already without a TPM. Error: “You must have a valid license from Microsoft or Apple DRM to use the internet.”
The reason it could work for games is they could tie their game anticheat into the TPM … and that’s something that has to happen as an agreement between vendors for specific games, anti-cheats, or stores. This could (and I am talking out of my ass a bit here as I don’t know the full details of how TPM boot validation works – though TPM passthrough, like GPU passthrough is a thing in QEMU) potentially open the door for VMs that can play games as well if someone wanted to invest the time, as in theory the TPM could validate the Windows 11 VM boot hasn’t been tampered with.
Also, a TPM is not DRM, it’s a cryptography coprocessor with verifiably secured keys… that’s just a unique hardware function that’s desirable (particularly for certain corporate environments, militaries, etc), that want to verify their devices haven’t been hacked) can’t be done any other way.
Fearing a TPM is like the folks foreshadowing that secure boot was going to be the end of Linux; it wasn’t and it isn’t. That’s true of this particular piece of hardware as well (and, it can be used for other things).
Your tinfoil hat is showing…
Do you have an actual argument? Because again, I’m literally forced to have a TPM module to use the current version of Windows. You can’t say “that’s crazy conspiracy talk” WHILE IT’S HAPPENING.
IIRC you can store new keys in the TPM, they’re just not going to be signed by the manufacturer.
Yes, which is the problem.
That wouldn’t work… and isn’t how that works… That would require browser vendors to actually implement some kind of “here’s my TPM” handshake and websites to care enough to refuse service if you fail that validation.
Yes, in a hypothetical scenario where browser vendors are forced to implement a TPM handshake, they’d have to implement a TPM handshake. Since the hypothetical situation isn’t reality as of right now, it’s not how that works. Are you playing dumb?
If someone wanted to do that, they could do that already without a TPM. Error: “You must have a valid license from Microsoft or Apple DRM to use the internet.”
Yes, but I can currently create a new account or otherwise circumvent these issues. There is no way to block my device in a centralised manner, except that now the hardware is in place to force such a thing by regulatory bodies.
Also, a TPM is not DRM, it’s a cryptography coprocessor with verifiably secured keys… that’s just a unique hardware function that’s desirable (particularly for certain corporate environments, militaries, etc), that want to verify their devices haven’t been hacked) can’t be done any other way.
I never said a TPM is DRM. Could you try to stay on point?
Fearing a TPM is like the folks foreshadowing that secure boot was going to be the end of Linux; it wasn’t and it isn’t. That’s true of this particular piece of hardware as well (and, it can be used for other things).
No, it’s not.
Whatever, do or don’t freak out about it. It’s happening with or without your support, and it will be just fine.
All the bad things that could happen could happen with or without a TPM.
if you have a decent cpu it probably has a tpm, which is pretty useful in both windows and linux. like secure passwordless (or data-at-rest) drive encryption
Pop! OS is great.
I like Manjaro
Pop OS is the whole reason I stayed on linux :) Lots of failed linux experiments in its wake previous to that haha
I like Gentoo, but Opensuse Thumbleweed is good alternative
