Judge in US v. Google trial didn’t know if Firefox is a browser or search engine::Google accused DOJ of aiming to force people to use “inferior” search products.
The judge in question is 51 years old. He’s not old enough to be this clueless about basics like the difference between a search engine and a web browser and popular examples of each.
I teach a programming class to young adults (18-25, usually) and was flabbergasted last semester when I realized that a couple of them didn’t know what a directory hierarchy/file system was.
My suspicion is that the ease of use angle of “just tell me what you want and I’ll find it” led to this. Not saying ease of use is bad, but I expected more from people wanting to learn programming.
And I’m over here meticulously organizing my music library into folders by band, album, year, etc…o the humanity.
There’s a subgroup of the millennial and gen X that grew up with a sweet spot of computers such that you actually need to know how it works in order to use one effectively. Ease enough to do a lot of fun stuff, hard enough that it encourages learning the technical minutiae. The rise of smart phones and net/chrome books means there is a huge chunk of population that has a superficial and passing relationship with tech. It’s big buttons or else it doesn’t register with them. It’s not their fault, the pursue of usability and fool proofing without actually giving tools to dig deep when necessary means they have less exposure to the underlying tech. Thus are less familiar with how things work. It’s an universal phenomenon, I would bet most people have no clue how to raise, grow and process food, but still we don’t starve, we go to the grocery and buy what’s there already cleaned, processed and packaged. There are huge advantages to understanding the chain of production of food, but I’d guess most people would struggle in an agronomy class about what’s a compost bin.
100% agree. Great description that dives into particulars of what I hand waved at.
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No. It’s phones. Phones hide their file directories.
iPhones do, I can get to them on android
You can get to them, but how many people actually do, or even realize the directory tree exists?
How do people usually clean up their storage space? I guess if they never run out, they could avoid using it. Another thing I use it for is looking though downloads. Maybe some people just download a new version every time?
Most people’s main use of storage is music, photos, and videos. All those can be managed from within their respective apps.
iOS has had a files app that looks very similar to the one on android for at least 5 years. Android had it first, but iPhones do not hide this app. It is installed by default just like on android.
iOS has had a files app that looks very similar to the one on android for at least 5 years. Android had it first, but iPhones do not hide this app. It is installed by default just like on android.
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This is a fan-fucking-tastic article! Thanks bud.
And I’m over here meticulously organizing my music library into folders by band, album, year, etc…o the humanity.
beets, it’s a life changer
A music folder is like a zen garden. Where’s the zen in automating it all?
Kids often don’t know the difference between “wifi” and the Internet. It’s not an age thing these days.
Since smartphone became a thing it has always been my theory that millenials, and up to a point GenX, would be the only two generations to be forced into being tech-savy. Boomers and GenZ have been overwhelmingly tablet and phone users. Whoever still logging on a PC nowadays will have a vastly different experience than what it used to be.
It is a different world really. I am a huge geek and I have been in tech for a long time now, but I still get confused look at family gathering when I tell them I have no idea how to fix someone’s Ipad or what app/settings/touch gesture to do whatever.
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You’d think they’d notice they can use the internet from their phones when there’s no wifi.
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I hold out hope they’ll figure out the difference when they have to pay for separate subscriptions for cellular data and home internet service.
Some places have mobile (cellular and internet) and home internet, so that’s not likely to help some people.
But is this like Kleenex?
Pretty sure they call cellular data “wifi”.
Or you’d think it would also be very easy to demonstrate you can be on wifi and not on the internet.
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Lawmakers and judges should not be allowed to make decisions on something they know nothing about. This is a huge problem with people not even wanting to educate themselves, and then deciding how the rest of us get to interact with the internet.
That being said, Firefox is only popular with tech folk. They have just over a 3% market share. I’m a developer and I don’t know anyone but myself that uses it. My mother would think I was talking about a cartoon if I brought it up. A lot of lemmings use it, but o would not call it a popular example.
Experts are supposed to break it down to them. But yeah, this is a flawed system but I fear the honnest take is that most humans know nothing about most things (even if we’re tempted to believe otherwise), so you’d be running out of avalaible judges real quick.
That’s a fair point. This case is even more complicated, as either the author of the article doesn’t know what they’re talking about, or a word was missing. The article says the judge wasn’t sure if mozilla was a browser or search engine, and Mozilla is neither.
I still hate the confidently incorrect assertions people in charge are making to negatively impact the way the largest and most complete telecommunications and information system works. Just look at facebooks trial where zuck had to explain how the internet works to the people who were deciding if his company was doing something wrong.
That just…seems so wrong. My mentally declining grandmother used firefox back in the 00s era (though now that I think about it, my uncle is a developer, so maybe he set up the computer). How have we backslid since then to where so few people know/use firefox?
Actually yes. Around 2010 Firefox still had like 60% market share. Now, chrome dominates the market and Firefox is in single digits. Chrome gives you so many conveniences, and only a small amount of people care about what you give up for those conveniences. “My data isn’t important. Who cares about what I do?” Is a common response to data mining and sharing.
Most people don’t want to put the time and effort into researching these things. Most people just don’t have the energy.
But again if you don’t know anything about a topic you are asked to make a decision on, you should recuse yourself. It’s unfortunate that most people making decisions about tech know very little about it.
Another thing not being considered by all the “judge doesn’t know anything” crowd is that they’re failing to consider that this case isn’t really about search engines or Alphabet as a company.
It’s about monopoly laws. In this case, pertaining to Google and Mozilla, but monopolies nonetheless.
I’m 46 and I know the difference.
Yeah but your on lemmy so your a write off (and so am I)
Hey there! Don’t want to nitpick, but it is spelled „you‘re“ in your case. „Your“ is used when you‘re talking about possessive attribution. „Your car“ vs „you‘re (you are) driving a car“.
As long as we’re nitpicking, in English, we only use the upper quotation marks, e.g. “you’re”.
That’s good to know, thank you! I‘ll try to keep it in mind from now on.
Wait, you actually didn’t know? No judgement, I’m just surprised.
The other thing you might want to know is that if you want to get fancy and use different opening and closing quotation marks, they curve the opposite way to what you’re used to, “like this.”
I did at some point, but I keep mixing it up with my native language rule for quotations. I study both german and english language and should actually know better, lol. The rules of written language are fascinating to me, so I appreciate any corrections!
That’s interesting!
Lots of people of my gen were utterly clueless about computers growing up-- it was arcane nerd shit.
You didn’t have to know how to use a computer until much later in life in a number of careers.
Hell, my university still had rentable typewriters in the library, which still had a physical card catalog (alongside the new computerized one), and we still wrote tests by hand (essay or otherwise). Laptops weren’t a thing. And not everyone had a PC/Mac. The Internet was something most students were oblivious to. The web was only just in its infancy and only the nerds knew about it as a curious novelty. Hell, there wasn’t even DNS back then. Everyone downloaded a “hosts” file.
Even so, I’m still struggling to imagine how a person still doesn’t know the difference between a search engine and a browser, though.
Then again, I suppose some people are just really awful at analytical thinking – understanding how to decompose complex things. Understanding how the parts and pieces work. The people who were really bad at that kind of thing probably would have steered clear of computers as much as possible.
So, ok, maybe if a person avoids computers in undergrad and law school in the 90s then becomes a lawyer, they can just actively avoid computers in their job. That’s one career where maybe that’s possible because, by the time computers become truly ubiquitous, your assistants that can do the computer stuff for you.
So we have two options:
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A 52 year old federal judge is somehow tech illiterate in a way that would imply they have absolutely no idea about the fundamentals of modern technology.
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A federal judge is asking a large number of extremely basic questions to get their answers on official records so that the cases parameters are clearly defined. He is taking extra care because there’s not a lot of direct precedent on these issues.
I’m heavily leaning towards number 2 here. The internet likes to pretend everyone over the age of 40 has no idea how a computer works. The year is 2023. A middle-aged person today was fairly young when computers started to be incorporated into all aspects of society and is well versed in computer literacy. In some ways they are actually much more tech literate than the younger generations. It’s almost certain that he knows the difference between Firefox and Google.
In the 1990s if you wanted to play a PC game you had install it manually with a CD, typically configure ini files in a text editor and fix irq requests for your peripherals just to play. In the contemporary world a zoomer only needs to tap the install icon on the screen, Gen Z may have more experience usually technology than any previous generation, but the days of asking grandma to fix your computer seem a certainty on the horizon.
Yep, the digital illiteracy of the z gen is terrifying. Apparently contemporary teens have no understanding of the folder structure. Like, at all. Of the concept of files having their location. It’s all because they were brought up with iPhones for everything just is, and iCloud where everything just is.
Maybe they imagine tag-based filesystem or content-addressed?
Like porn sites.apparently they imagine a huge dump of stuffs which just exists
Apparently contemporary teens have no understanding of the folder structure. Like, at all.
I met numerous 20- and 30- somethings in the 90s who had no idea either. When asked why they didn’t know where did they save the documents they “lost”, they usually answered that they hadn’t studied Computer Sciences and therefore they didn’t have any reason to know (!).
Appelations to learn to use better their tools usually got nowhere.
It’s a bit like how cars used to be really unreliable but easy to work on so a lot of people learned to fix some basic things, but now it’s more complicated and difficult to fix anything so even a lot of handy people don’t bother.
To be fair a lot of things are as easy or easier, but vendor will never let you use diagnostic software
It’s easier to build a PC in 2023 than it was in 1993. Modern motherboard’s typically don’t require separate cards for sound, network and video (unless you’re gaming). It’s mostly integrated now and you don’t need hours manually manipulating jumpers and trying to affix terribly designed IDE cables now replaced with SATA. I’d much rather work on repairing my modern PC vs trying to troubleshoot a Compaq 486 20+ years ago.
Ide? Sata? M.2 baybeeee
Honestly same. The passage of time is weird
People think 52 is like super old… but really that’s just Gen X
Hell you really wanna know how warped our perception of time is?
Most people think 20 years ago Mario was an 8bit platformer that revitalized interest in video games after Atari killed the medium with oversaturation and nonexistent quality control.
What was Mario 20 years ago? An aging mascot with a divisive summer themed pollution game that I loved but others seemed to hate, on a console that only did well with diehard fans… 20 years ago Nintendo wasn’t the big man on campus, that was Sony with the PS2 despite it being weaker than GCN and Xbox.
Currently playing through Super Mario Sunshine. Looks pretty decent with HD textures.
Kinda lost me with Mario
I work as a website developer and I think number one is so, so much more likely. The average person barely knows how to use a computer at all, let alone how it works and different terminology.
An older, non-IT person - an actual judge, yeah I’m not giving them the benefit of the doubt here - they likely don’t know lol
Not sure why “old+judge” automatically equals “tech illiterate.” The judge in another high-profile Google case taught himself to code
The article you link says the judge already knew how to code beforehand.
He’s been coding in BASIC for decades, actually, writing programs for the fun of it: a program to play Bridge, written as a gift for his wife; an automatic solution for the board game Mastermind, which he is immensely fond of; and most ambitiously, a sprawling multifunctional program with a graphical interface that helps him with yet another of his many hobbies, ham radio.
Yes, because he taught himself.
“At some point, I looked at the BASIC book and decided I would learn that.” He taught himself straight from the book, which he recalls was “pretty straightforward.”
It’s because these things work by probabilities. Generally when you think of older people who aren’t working as IT professionals, you wouldn’t expect them to be great with computers - and you’d probably be right.
Do you really think that a judge that taught himself to code would be common-place and would be the norm? That judge is awesome, but he is very clearly an outlier lol
Knowing how to code doesn’t mean you know the difference between a search engine and a web browser.
I have soon a PhD in computer tech related subject, program for living, and am a lot younger than the judge, and if you ask me if Mozilla makes a search engine I would say I have no idea, they’ve made a lot of stuff. And if you asked me how Google’s SEM tools work I would ask wtf is SEM.
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I’m disappointed in arstechnica for only supporting their provocative headline (Judge in US v. Google trial didn’t know if Firefox is a browser or search engine) with this vagueness in the article:
While Cavanaugh delivered his opening statement, Mehta even appeared briefly confused by some of the references to today’s tech, unable to keep straight if Mozilla was a browser or a search engine. He also appeared unclear about how SEM works and struggled to understand the options for Microsoft to promote Bing ads outside of Google’s SEM tools.
What did he actually say?!
Plus it’s an opening statement. It’s an intro that tells the finder of fact (traditionally a jury, but for cases like this it’s the judge) what evidence you’re going to present during the trial. You want that person to be able to place that argument in context, but the very nature of explaining that “I’m going to show you a bunch of stuff” is going to have a bunch of “well I haven’t seen it yet, so can you tell me what to expect” responses.
Especially if there’s a discussion of the different contractual relationships and the different companies and products. I’ve seen plenty of judges insist on clarity when communicating about things that might have more than one meaning: a company that has the same name as a product that company produces (Toyota makes Toyotas), a legal entity that has the same name as a place (Madison Square Garden banned someone from Madison Square Garden), etc.
For all we know, the confusion might be one of the lawyer’s fault, for using the words Mozilla or Firefox interchangeably, the way this article seems to.
I think its also important to note, he was not explicitly unclear about what Firefox was, he was unclear about what Mozilla was. It’s admittedly still not great, but I think it’s a little more understandable a thing to be unfamiliar with than the browser itself. I’d really rather the title referred to Mozilla because of this, as really there’s little to definitively back up its claim that the judge is unfamiliar with Firefox, just that he is to some degree unfamiliar with the company that makes it. Again, still far from ideal, but not nearly as egregious as they’re trying to make it sound.
|unable to keep straight if Mozilla was a browser or a search engine
It is neither. It is a foundation that maintains a browser. It is like asking if Microsoft is a browser or a search engine.
if Microsoft is a browser or a search engine.
yes
No
Yes! Stop fighting the status quo
Allow me to introduce ‘I have problem with The Google’.
E: wording.
You mean the Google Bing?
Let me quickly Google that in Bing Bing Go
So true
It would be naive to expect Google to be broken by anti-trust laws, just look how microsoft dodged that in the 2000 and went back to the same practices today . this is a circus show
<s>Welcome to American politics. </s>
Welcome to politics.
For strike through, use ~~content~~
exampleYou forgot the /s frienderino
Tips fedora
How can anyone make a judgement about something they know nothing about? We are so doomed.
As if this has doomed humanity before.
Judging without knowing has been practically sport for most of humanity’s history.
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Oh for sure. I was just pinpointing the fatalistic reaction.
I mean… gestures wildly at, like, everything
Right? It’s a good thing this judge is asking questions.
Imagine how fucked we would be with zoomers for judges and then count your blessings ;)
Completely brain dead take
I think you mean complete shit post
Where’s the punch line? Please explain the joke to me
There is no punch line. And no joke. It’s a shitpost so there is little to explain.
You already won bro put away your confusion and pat yourself on the back 👍
Holy shit you mean the generation that’s actually going to be effected by their own decisions? What would make that worse? Please expand
nah
Because you’re a dipshit
alright
Google trial didn’t know if Firefox is a browser or search engine::Google accused DOJ of aiming to force people to use “inferior” search products.
Google search is an inferior search product.
Google, Twitter, and Reddit are proof that your business cannot relay on a middle man without that middle man creating a monopoly that shits itself
God the nightmare we will get when Gaben passes…
I’m not gonna lie, and I hate to admit it, but I actually really like Bing’s ChatGPT integration. For basic searches, it does all the legwork and gets you a summarized answer with sources for more info. It even works great on really obscure topics…
It is now but it wasn’t always.
When asked about a perceived ignorance in computers, the judge proclaimed, “I’m not ignorant about computers! In fact, just last week I finished Space Quest, and I’m now getting through Leisure Suit Larry!” The judge’s report, written using WordPerfect 5.1, is expected to be released soon.
I’ll have you know that I just recently had a user incredibly upset because their word perfect files did not automatically identify as word documents.
I’m not surprised at all. Only people who work in IT are aware or care about anything other then the default apps and operating systems.
I really think it’s a matter of context; how one was raised, what kind of people one interacts with, interest, etc.
I’m older and i know so much more than most of my age group. I learned a long, long time ago to not be afraid to try things out, my pc is not going to explode; to investigate when i’m stuck with some computer stuff; and i have adult kids who teach me things that i don’t know enough about or share their views. Some of the communities i subscribed to are about tech, FOSS, android etc. I’m always really open to boost my knowledge.
Yeah, that’s great and all. But this judge shouldn’t be ruling over this case if he doesn’t know the basics of today’s technology.
So I got to wonder, when that judge goes home at night, does his family, and especially his kids, let him know what everyone is saying about him in relation to this article?
And then I wonder how that affects him going into court the next day, when he has to ask more ‘dumb’ questions, does he actually ask or not.
Tech just isn’t his expertise.
Mehta has been described as an avid fan of hip hop music. In a 2015 copyright case regarding the similarity of two songs, Mehta noted in a footnote that he was "not a ‘lay person’ when it comes to hip-hop music and lyrics,” and noted he has “listened to hip hop for decades”. American rappers Jay-Z, Eminem, Kanye West and Canadian rapper Drake are among his favorite artists.
Amazing underrated comment right here.
His job is to ask those questions. If he doesn’t do it, his reasoning will be flawed and then the case will restart with a new judge when appealed, wasting everyone’s time and money. I gotta imagine that’s more embarrassing to a judge than asking these questions.
His family and friends are likely a bubble and thus never see the article to begin with.
Kids are never in the bubble, you know that. Even when they’re supposed to be in a bubble, they’re not in a bubble.
Don Jr would like to have a word with you after he finishes these few ounces of blow.
I guess it depends how rich or how mafia/Russian your connections are.
The people making decisions often don’t know shit about what they’re deciding. I used to wonder why huge companies with a shitload of cash make horrible decisions for their products. Hint: It’s not because they hire bad engineers.
I feel like most average people (regardless of age) don’t even know alternatives to internet browsers exist, so why would I expect a judge to know? They’re obviously not experts in every field, it’s up to the attorneys to inform them and persuade them one way or another.
Are people here unable to see that the layman might not know what Firefox is off-hand?
Are people here unable to see that the layman might not know what Firefox is off-hand?
I don’t think it’s that. I think most people want a judge who’s knowledgeable enough on the subject that he/she’s actually judging.
Bringing in experts to educate him during the court case is not right, he’s supposed to be able to judge if the experts are actually experts and know what they’re talking about, by the time the actual case is happening.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Today, US District Judge Amit Mehta heard opening statements in the Department of Justice’s antitrust case challenging Google’s search dominance.
To prove this, the DOJ plans to bring in Hal Varian, who served as Google’s chief economist at that time.
William Cavanaugh, a lawyer representing the state of Colorado, also appeared to raise one unique claim still being weighed in this case regarding Google’s search engine marketing (SEM) tool SA 360.
During the more than 10-year time period that the case covers, browsers, phones, and search engines all evolved rapidly.
So, on top of weighing complicated antitrust questions, Mehta might also struggle to keep track of basic facts like how search was conducted at any given point in the case’s timeline.
While Cavanaugh delivered his opening statement, Mehta even appeared briefly confused by some of the references to today’s tech, unable to keep straight if Mozilla was a browser or a search engine.
The original article contains 496 words, the summary contains 153 words. Saved 69%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
I think the automotive analogy is relevant, some think using technology means they understand it. I’m a pretty good driver, but it would be unwise to ask me to repair your car’s transmission. My grandmother spends more time on her computer glued to Facebook than I spend using my computer on a given day, but I’m not asking her to build my next gaming rig.
