honey look, freedom of expression and the right to protest in America just
gotdropped.Let’s not keep making the mistake of assuming Trump’s tweets have force of law. He’s just talking out of his ass again, just like he’s not actually invading greenland and canada. Notice how he’s talking about at least 4 different actions here, I’m pretty sure none of which he can actually do. 5 if you count thanking us for our attention to this matter (?). If Trump tries to do anything in this regard no judge* will uphold it.
*Obligatory other than Clarence Thomas
People in power do what he says. His word is de facto law, even if it’s illegal. It literally does not matter. You are in denial if you think he’s not going to get away with this.
Let’s not keep making the mistake of assuming the rule of law matters at this point. If he does something and nobody stops it, its legality or lack there of is moot. If he says to do something and people do it and nobody stops him (or judge’s rulings about it are ignored), then it doesn’t matter that it was illegal.
I know you’re just trying to get people to calm down, but at this point, people are right to be scared and right to think these things could actually come to pass considering it has happened before. Maybe it won’t get that far… But plenty has already happened that should never have happened, and the US currently has a president who is illegally, specifically unconstitutionally, holding office and was allowed to be sworn in anyway, so it’s probably not a good idea to assume this won’t happen just because it’s also unconstitutional.
Hey remember that wall that didn’t get built?
The fact that no one is trolling him about it shows how people are weirdly compliant about all this.
“…illegal protest…”?
Oh right, the US Constitution doesn’t exist any more.
Next time an american speaks about “muh first amendment”, “USA only free speech country in the world” bullshit, show them this
The problem is it cuts both ways. The Democrats saying they want hate speech to not be protected and Nazi propaganda to be censored is just the flipside of the same coin.
Either you have free speech or you don’t
Either you have free speech or you don’t
Lots of countries have free speech with limits on it. It’s not uncommon and doesn’t mean Citizens don’t have freedom of speech.
For example:
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If it has a limit, it’s not free
If I can’t do a Nazi salute, then I can’t say “I want to shoot Donald Trump in the face”
If it has a limit, it’s not free
“Free bread sticks”
“I’ll take 100”
“Um… No. You can’t have that many.”
“iF tHeRe’S a LiMiT iT’s NoT fReE!”
Don’t be pedantic. A limit would be “free breadsticks only if you decide to pray to our god in front of us.”
If you say unlimited and then put a limit on it, that is illegal, as Verizon and AT&T found out in court
If you say unlimited and then put a limit on it
When did the American Constitution promise “Unlimited Speech”?
If it has a limit, it’s not free
Don’t be pedantic
Bruh… your pedantry started this
So should there be any penalty for lying under oath?
No, because it is unconstitutional to put someone under oath
By definition, it means a solemn promise that is beholden to a deity therefore it is illegitimate in court and law by the First Amendment.
You probably also think it should not be legal to kill people that break into your house to steal your TV.
Fair enough. I think the discussion ends there; I cannot use reason to dissuade you from a position that you clearly did not use reason to get yourself into.
Society and laws are at the mercy of those who are in control. Right now in the US it is the Trump administration, but I remember Barack Obama saying, “I’ve got a pen, and I’ve got a phone,” emphasizing his ability to take executive action without waiting for Congress to push his agenda forward.
That’s not freedom.
Scream “Fire” at a theater. Obviously you cannot.
The phrase “shouting fire in a crowded theater” is outdated and legally irrelevant to modern free speech discussions. Its origin from Schenck v. United States (1919) was overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969), which set a much higher standard for restricting speech. Modern First Amendment doctrine protects almost all speech unless it directly incites imminent violence or crime.
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If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal. (Karl Popper)
Nah.
oh look, a literal “free speech absolutist.”
Wrong platform
I’m banned from that platform because they do not believe in free speech absolutism, especially when you start in on churches and cops
Ohh, sweet summer child.
Is it so hard to believe you think Free speech should be absolute weapon should be unrestricted, abortion should be unrestricted, people should be able to harness electricity from solar and harness rainwater from the sky?
Because these are all things that are restricted here except for speech, so I am sure as fuck not going to budge on it
Are you high?
There is a massive difference between allowed to say my government is doing something wrong, and being allowed to say “gas all the kikes”. One is criticism of authority, which is good. The other is hate speech, which is bad. You can absolutely have one without the other.
There is no difference between those two phrases if you actually have free speech
And in fact, saying “I voted for Donald Trump”, is way more offensive to me than saying “kill everyone in Gaza”
Every freedom ends where freedoms of others are infringed. That includes every freedom, let it be freedom of movement (you can go wherever, but not someone else’s house), freedom of expression (you can express yourself however, unless that expression instills hatred towards others, inflicts trauma on kids etc. etc.) and yes, also freedom of speech (You can say anything, unless what you do is calling for violence, attacks someone etc.).
Some of you US guys really don’t understand how freedom in a society works.
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Yeah, and an allied soldier in WW2 was just the flipside of a Wehrmacht soldier, so both were the same, right?
Chinese and Japanese soldiers during that time period would be a much more accurate comparison, and the answer is yes
The answer is only yes, if you are a misanthropic cynic.
Hate speech is not free speech, boo.
Yes, it is.
That’s why all the Westborough Baptist people can stand around with God hates fags signs and nothing happens to them
The court only ruled on offensive or outrageous speech…
When? Brandenburg V Ohio long predates them
Snyder v. Phelps 2011
Free speech isn’t intended to supercede criminal law. Advocating for hurting people is a crime. If they want to do it and have it be covered as “free speech”, they need to start by changing the law.
Advocating for hurting people is a crime.
It’s really not, though. Making a specific, credible threat against someone can be, but speaking in general terms that someone ought to be hurt without specifying how, when, or by who is not.
I’m sure you’ll become correct momentarily, though, once Trump declares that calling for his removal (or hell, any criticism of the regime because why not?) would “hurt” him politically and is therefore a felony. That is what you had in mind, right?
Advocating for hurting people is not a crime. Even an inactionable threat is not a crime. Look up precedent for arrests of inciting a riot and see how many of those charges actually stuck or help up on appeal.
The fact that people are saying yore okay to punch Nazis in the face would be a violation of what you are advocating for but you have no problem with that because you don’t like Nazis.
I personally don’t support people saying that either. Punching people in the face is not a great way to change their minds that they are being “the bad guy”. And I think seeing alot of people post that, is counter productive to the goal of getting along and solving problems together reasonably.
But I don’t, and shouldn’t, control what everyone else thinks is a good idea.
this isn’t about fringe democratic congressmen addressing hate speech, this is about a sitting president threatening to punish protests.
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No. The government has no right to accessing anybody’s materials. Warrant or not.
You are not wrong. The Supreme Court finding presidential immunity and then allowing an insurrectionist to run in contravention of the 14th amendment seems to have finally put the old document to rest.
We live according to royal decree now.
Correct
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lol it never has the united states has a long history of killing, maiming, and imprisoning protestors
I mean just to be fair isn’t it illegal to have a huge protest without informing the authorities first? Also violent protests would be illegal too, right?
These assumptions are based on similar laws from other countries. But I don’t really believe Trump is talking about those protests or just planning to forbid them from getting permission to happen.
This is the same as the Zelensky trap. They’re going to cut federal funding regardless. The just plan on getting you to bend the knee before hand.
This exactly. Higher education hurts them in the long run so it was never going to get a pass. It’ll be gutted so that private schools can take over. This is just a way to put the blame on the universities and students who don’t bend to their will.
It’ll be gutted so that private schools can take over
Maybe. If it resists. If it fails to resist it will be turned into an institution responsible for communicating a fascist ideology.
Mask up. Leave your phones at home. Break shit.
They won’t. They couldn’t even get upset over kids being massacred every week in their schools. They are a broken people. Have been for decades. Their military.and economy didn’t fail. Their moral fiber did. They substituted thoughts and prayers and other virtue signalling for community organisation and direct action.
If you think I am wrong then don’t reply. Go outside and prove it. Nobody gives a shit what people write in social media. It means nothing.
Lots of us are mad and just don’t know what to do. One at a time we get arrested or shot. It takes a group effort but nothing has crystallized yet.
I got two kids under 4, I’m not lining up to get my ticket punched just to get the ball rolling.
Exactly. In Ukraine parents fight and die so their 4 year old will have a country to return to. In the US they let their souls die instead and leave their kids to fight their own battles.
You are a nation of Uvalde cops.
Downvote me. Argue. In your hearts you all know it is true. You are broken. You were clearly broken since at least the 90s when you met Columbine with platitudes instead of tens of millions of mothers on the streets screaming in pain.
I’m not going to downvote you. Suggest an action.
Edit: And inspire us by what you are doing besides flaming on the Internet. I’m sure you must be doing something, rather than standing by passing the buck? Right?
Thankfully I live in a rich liberal democracy where over 90% vote and we still have a fairly decent though far from perfect society.
I can be outraged by what Americans let happen to their country because I’m human and a parent but I can’t help and shouldn’t help. American society needs to find its own solutions, in its own time and on terms it can live with.
You can’t pass this off onto me.
In no way am I trying to pass the buck, but it’s easy to do nothing and bitch on the Internet. It’s a lot harder to be the first one to do something.
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You’re spot on… I might argue that that moral fiber has pretty much never existed. But do you have any insight on how one even begins to restore that moral fiber?
Gimme a break, I don’t expect you to know everything that goes on here, just as all I “know” about Australia is “you” made Murdoch, continue to abuse native people just like us, and dingos regularly eat babies. Like asserting that no Australian people care about those issues is wrong and obviously my fundamental understanding of the country is flawed, it’s also wrongheaded to assert the American people are all broken and spineless for years and have bad moral fiber (I’ll assume this is a normal saying for y’all elsewhere, but that sounds like a nationalistic dog whistle to my ears).
It is especially bizarre to claim that Americans are incapable of direct action a few years after the country had some pretty explosive sustained protests against police violence and racism. The US is filled with broken people, yes, but not because of some nebulous moral failing, and it’s the broken government you have an issue with, not the poor fools who were born here.
Looking to the mentioned protests a few years back might explain the lack of similar reaction now. They burned youth prisons, occupied police stations, ran for office, took to the streets, were shot at, gassed, and went to jail. For what? Nothing changed endured, the establishment “left” abandoned the movement and helped undo any change that occured, the government clamped down harder on dissent, and Trump got reelected. Maybe the methods of resistance have to change to succeed, you cant keep fighting the war of yesterday and expect to win after all, and you sure don’t have to publicize your actions for online strangers to check your moral fiber.
Posting may be meaningless, but I’d say all this to your face if we were talking in person too. Communication is how we change and change minds, and leaving nonsense unchallenged is how we got into this mess in the first place, and I won’t make that mistake here or in my non digital life.
Leave your ID at home too… Just saying.
What’s an illegal protest? I thought first amendment speech covered that
Also, how can he expel a student from a school he doesn’t control? or does he mean expel students from the country?
This happened before: https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sophie_Scholl
a German student and anti-Nazi political activist, active within the White Rose non-violent resistance group in Nazi Germany. She was convicted of high treason after having been found distributing anti-war leaflets at the University of Munich(LMU) with her brother, Hans.
“Such a splendid sunny day, and I have to go. But how many have to die on the battlefield in these days, how many young, promising lives… What does my death matter if by our acts thousands are warned and alerted. Among the student body there will certainly be a revolt.”
She’s bae.
RIP hero
Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don’t dare express themselves as we did.
Also, happening right now in russia with any anti-war protests
I’m more of a Black Orchestra but big props to the White Rose
The amount of times I’ve heard salty right wing grifters complain about Orwellian censorship on literally everything. But I guess it’s just fine if cult leader Trump does it, because he stands for what’s right and sticks it to those progressive plebs, right?
He didn’t win by being consistent. Hypocrisy is WHY people voted for him. They thought he was the only one who would “do the hard things” by being cruel to the people who are hurting everyone. That’s the narrative at least, and while you can literally write libraries on the flaws, inconsistencies and logical discrepancies in Trump and the Republican narratives, the fact remains that most people are vulnerable to storylines.
Not moral flaws. Not character. Not record or experience. The only thing people largely, as a group, care about is JUST how someone makes them feel in that moment. And a lot of poorly educated, mentally unwell people saw and heard Trump lying to the people they believe were the cause of all our woes, and that’s why they voted for him.
If we ever want another democracy that works, we have to understand that our population is genetically and physically identical to the beings who were clubbing each other’s heads in during ten thousand years of ice age glaciers and primitive hardship. We survived those times by forming tight-knight groups and telling ourselves stories for how to survive. We’re doing the same things right now, but someone else is guiding those stories. Either we stop the storytellers or we make better stories that people will want to repeat. Those are our only options.
Either we stop the storytellers or we make better stories that people will want to repeat.
We do have better stories: the stories or class conflict and workers solidarity. It’s just that the people in power would rather fascists win than let those stories reach the people that need to hear them.
If the stories aren’t working, they’re not better.
“Better” here is going to be a highly loaded word, and revolves a lot around what results you’re seeking. Humans connect with stories that connect with their feelings, it’s how they got exploited to get us here. Decades of people signing away their own rights in service of stories that momentarily scared them, and here we are in the culmination of all these tiny stories and resulting policies that have been made to steer people to this place and time.
You can’t just tell people now “Trump is the bad guy, trans people aren’t threatening us, we have to help Ukraine, the wealthy elite are our real enemies.”
It doesn’t matter if the story is true, that story doesn’t move people. It’s just lecturing to the toddler-mind that makes up the bulk of our population. You can’t make the people better. We HAVE to abandon this idea that everyone wants to “do the right thing” on some level. No we fucking don’t. People want to feel validated. Not even feel good, that’s less important to people than feeling heard and validated. Our stories need to make individuals feel something, individuals who view everything outside of their immediate sphere of awareness as abstractions and theory, not reality. You can’t make these people feel sympathy or care for others, so we have to make them feel something else.
I cannot upvote this comment as much as I would want to upvote it.
Can you give examples of what you think might be working stories?
Can you give examples of what you think might be working stories?
It’s really hard to create a narrative with the sheer power and influence of stories using fear and hate, because we all respond much stronger to fear and anger than we do more abstract ideas like charity and empathy as a matter of survival. I genuinely have no idea how you fight this. It’s literally an exploitation of all of our survival responses and it will always work on some segment of any given population, and once it starts to work on a few people, the effect will snowball. My prescription here is that we can’t let hate speech start in the first place. We have held the sanctity of bad ideas in too much regard for too long, other nations don’t fuck around with this shit because they know how contagious hate and fear is.
There is however one great example of successful, working populism I can think of though, and that’s Bernie Sanders. He’s been effective in messaging to both right and left for decades because he’s consistent, he validates our problems and keeps his focus laser-tight and narrow on one talking point: which is how the wealthy oligarchs are hoarding our wealth. That’s all, and he’s held the same talking point for decades and it works on both sides of the political spectrum. It’s just a shame that we’re in a place where power has already been ceded to the corporate interests and people like Bernie are muzzled long before they get real power.
Thank you 🙏
Bravo!
hey, just chiming in to say I really do appreciate your perspective – Narrative therapy is a real tool that can help people. and yet i think by implying that a narrative is “worse” if it doesn’t “work”, you’re overlooking the force of other systemic factors. just think about the logistics of these stories reaching people’s ears. who has command over our attention? what narratives are people exposed to on a day-to-day basis? where does the power lie behind those messages? the idea that the best narrative is the one that thrives is akin to meritocratic thinking – a demonstrably flawed system.
the idea that the best narrative is the one that thrives
I was pretty clear that the effectiveness of a narrative is dependant on the results you’re seeking. I think you can turn a narrative loose into the world and it will run autonomously to a degree, and you could use a story’s ability to thrive and survive as a measure of at least how attractive and engaging it is, but no, I don’t think that is what makes a story effective for the purposes of influencing a large amount of people to make better choices, to have more curiosity, to think more about things they don’t normally think about.
Social engineering like this does take deliberate work. It takes effort and work to keep a story alive and growing. The problem is we already have tons of people doing this work for their own agendas. Sometimes they’re good stories, sometimes they’re terrible stories, but it almost doesn’t matter the “quality” of the narrative, since our brains are designed to hook into narratives to explain the world even if the explanation doesn’t even make a lick of sense. See: anti-vax doctors and flat earthers.
It’s just them wanting to a) be right (when it’s usually not the case) and 2) the other viewpoint to be silent immediately. They fuckin love censorship because first amendment only applies to them and theirs.
All federal funding will stop
That’s the only part here anyone needs to know.
He’ll threaten to pull funding for his stupid pet issues first, then pull it anyways for everyone else.
Therefore, fucking ignore his threats, nothing you can do will ever appease him and he will go back on his own word like it’s a bodily function.
Ill do whatever the fuck I want bitch, shut the fuck up and go suck Elons dick.
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Does “NO MASKS” mean that choosing to wear a mask to protect your health is now forbidden at colleges or is there another meaning that I don’t understand? It is so random and has nothing to do with the rest of the post except for being “woke”.
Probably making wearing any mask while protesting illegal, regardless of the legality of the protest itself.
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There’s a lot of things he’s not supposed to be able to do.
Until America actually does anything about it; he’s got free rein to do whatever the hell he wants.
I live in the SW, where bandanas are part of our cultural heritage. I should go pass out bandanas at our state colleges and universities.
He’s not supposed to be able to. We’ll see if the administration follows his orders or the existing law, or if they’ll listen to court orders. My hopes are, unfortunately, not high.
Unless it’s the proud boys with their uniforms, obviously.
Yeah a lot of states passed “you must carry a doctor’s note to wear a mask in public” laws during COVID.
I’ve written to my Republican state lawmaker only to receive a form reply.
They don’t want people concealing their identity to avoid police following them after protests.
Yeah, only the police are allowed to conceal their identity
Wouldn’t surprise me if they were STILL bitching about having been forced to wear masks 5 years ago lmaooo
Masks are for hiding your identity.
But perhaps the double context is intentional.
For loads of clinically vulnerable people, the right to protest is dependent on the right to mask. You can only risk going to a crowded protest if you’re allowed to use protective measures to prevent infections.
Not random, masks make it harder for the facial recognition cameras.
Hey Muricans, this is what you wanted and voted for (or could’t be bother voting to prevent)… enjoy
or, hit the streets and remove the fascist gov you elected
I feel like the overlap of fediverse users and trump voters is close to 0
Yeah but there are a bunch of “I’m going to not vote to ‘send a message’! who cares if that makes the nazis win?” types
I wonder how many of those were Russian bots
Previously I thought almost all of them were, but then I found out that someone I’ve known for years hold that view. Any mention that maybe voting for the democrats would be a good idea results in an angry speech about genocide; which somehow (I’m not sure how) even has them lean towards Trump.
I appreciate the staunch opposition to genocide. But its kind of weird to see someone take a single issue so strongly to heart that their reasoning ends up inverted such that the candidate they favour is worse even on their one issue.
Yeah, that’s totally fair. I mean, I guess it’s just a bot once removed, bots influencing your friend to swing to fascism
I don’t think Lemmy was really big enough to have THAT many bots. And at least of the ones I saw, if they were bots they’re doing an incredibly good job of making them blend, since many had a history of generally normal commenting before that time, and have continued posting normally since.
That’s very true. Bots once/twice removed? Like bots influencing the people posting here?
I can’t imagine you get to that conclusion alone
That reminds me, I wonder what @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world is up to these days.
Paging @linkerbaan@lemmy.ml.
8000 comments in 9 months, dead silent shortly after the election. (World, .ml is more active now)
Jesus.
You need an actual opposition party then. Blaming non voters is the dumbest thing you can fucking do and will make your situation worse and worse
The opposition party could obviously be better, but I think they were strong enough that “no preference” wasn’t the right choice. (After all, choosing not to vote is essentially a vote that says “I don’t care who wins”.)
I agree.
Labor party, Democrat, republican/ conservative, maga, etc. . And cut it out with this D/R bullshit. It’s maddening. There are people that have a serious moral issue casting a vote for some of the choices given.
I’m sure a lot of the people who sat it out are more informed and upset with what is going on than some of those that “chose the lesser evil”. They have every right to be furious.
Right, because the people who voted against trump are the ones that can–in a single election–dismantle and oppressive two party system crafted by an oligarchy feeding people the illusion of choice so they won’t riot. Of course the few of us who understand this and actually voted for the candidate with the best shot are able to do this. And of course we should have done this before all of the mass voter fraud being uncovered could lead to Trump taking an office he didn’t actually win. You’re absolutely right. Let me call everyone up and let them know we need to regroup.
You have no opposition party in America, your two party system also is a huge problem. In this way fascism will always win.
Correct. This is a major problem. The point is that it wasn’t made by the people, and the few of us who understand how problematic it is can’t simply make a new party and have it be successful. That doesn’t fix the two party system. America is a shit show, but some of us are doing what we can, and that isn’t enough but that’s not our faults.
Exactly, so why are you blaming people if its not our faults? You are the one debating in defense of blaming people, voters, and non voters alike.
Exactly. And you have people like me who refused to vote for Democrats because while they might not be as horrible as Donald Trump, there is still too much wrong with them for me to support them. I get called a Tankie bot whether I don’t vote or I vote third-party so fuck the DNC
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Nazis would have won either way
The DNC are Nazis that just focus on different issues
We all know opinions are like assholes, but this one wasn’t even wiped
The lesser of two evils is still evil
The argument was more charmingly made by Geralt of Rivia, but the only potion you’ve got is Flavor Aid.
I love the quote by Victor Saltzpyre in Vermintide 2:
“Do not be tempted to compare evils, lest you be tempted to cleave with the least of them!”
I swear I saw lots of “Genocide Joe” people around before the election so there must be some overlap of at least bots… now where are these ppl when it comes to Trump’s beach resort proposal of ethnic cleansing?
Ah of course, the people who didn’t want Joe Biden to support genocide decided to vote for Trump so he could support genocide even harder. That makes sense
I try not to let perfect be the enemy of good, but I do my bit to make them feel unwelcome.
Honestly I’m just scared. I tried the civil way and voted and protested and went to marches and told everyone I knew. But now I’m just scared, it seems like the only option left is action of a violent nature and I don’t know if I’m mentally prepared to throw my life away in prison or dead to try and stop the fascism. I know I have guns and if it tries to take me from my home I won’t go down quietly, but I’m just scared to make the first move only to end up a martyr.
Boy, you really told those rednecks who have no idea how to use the internet outside of Facebook! I’ll bet they won’t make that mistake again!
Plenty of people here had declared not voting because of some lme excuse
Everyone who is a US citizen and didn’t vote, comment “HERE” please
Ah yes, that free speech that Musk is always taking about.
This is absolutely absurd. People have a right to a lawful assembly.
Anyone supporting this guy is insane. Literally trying to become an emperor
Well there you go kids, he just explicitly named exactly all the things you should be doing.
