What an utter piece of shit.
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I think technically they’re more “terrorists” than “rogue nations”
I mean 9/11 was performed by some rich family member.
Are you referring to the coordinators or the person who knew about it but let it happen so he could go back and finish daddy’s war?
Well now that you say it like that I guess it could be both.
Why not both? Bin Laden had a $7million a year stipend until just a few years earlier.
Right? W is all like, “good one, Osama, but watch how I strike back!” As they clink glasses and play games with lives.
Their families were all buddies though.
Makes sense why they invaded some other country then
Frankly I am mad that people are only seeing this now.
Between billionaires and trillion dollar companies, many of them are richer than most nations.
Easiest solution in the world is to treat them to the guillotine
Is this not treason? Like legitimately, technically.
It may be a violation of the Logan Act, which makes it illegal for private citizens to interfere with foreign relations.
The Logan Act deals with private citizens negotiating with foreign governments. Unless he fucked with Starlink at the direct request of the Russian gov’t, I don’t see how the Logan Act applies. EDIT: apparently he did it after speaking with Russian government officials. So never mind, Logan Act is absolutely implicated.
*Foreign governments having a dispute with the United States. I don’t think this qualifies. Unfortunately.
That 76 billion in aid was just for funsies, nothing to do with Russia.
What’s your point? We’re still not in a dispute with Russia. A proxy dispute, maybe, but we’re not in active conflict with them.
I’m on your side! Elon is a fuckwit and Russia is run by a despot but I don’t think the Logan act applies
Dispute like actively sanctioning them? That kind of dispute?
I don’t know the legal definition of dispute but it seems to me a very loose term. Even more so than conflict or otherwise.
Me either but I think a dispute would involve our military directly.
Against Ukraine certainly, but since he’s not a citizen of Ukraine, then no. If these were US forces that he sabotaged, or the US was actually fighting in the war then it would also qualify, but once again that doesn’t apply. It definitely runs counter to US foreign interests, but that’s not enough to qualify (and probably good it doesn’t, a LOT of stuff people regularly do it could be argued would run counter to US foreign interests).
He did this with federal funds. And the US hasn’t declared war since, what, WW2? The Rosenbergs were executed for treason, and we never declared war with USSR.
The Rosenbergs were executed for treason
Espionage, actually.
I don’t know the legal definition of espionage but sure as hell seems like elons loyalty lies outside of the US.
Elon’s loyalty lies with Elon. It’s never been otherwise.
The Rosenbergs were convicted on espionage charges. They were sending classified info to the USSR. That’s different from treason although it’s related. The funding angle is an interesting question though. It still wouldn’t be treason, but it could qualify as… breach of contract maybe? Not sure exactly what the charge is when the government pays you for a service and you don’t fullfill the service in a satisfactory manner.
Would this not be espionage? Or would he have to have been acting under the direction of a state actor?
Espionage would require providing confidential intel to a foreign power. As far as I’m aware he didn’t share any intel, merely disabled the internet service he was providing within key areas. Even then, leaking Unkranian intel to Russia while arguably espionage against Ukraine would likely not qualify. He would need to provide confidential US material to Russia (or another foreign power) for it to be espionage.
Espionage can also encompass acts of sabotage, there are ways this could qualify if it was American forces affected. It’s also a glaring example of why many countries maintain state share in major defence companies. No idiot scrolling conspiracy theories on Twitter should be able to not only breach operational security, which he clearly was since he knew the operation was underway, but also sabotage it.
This was not sabotage, Ukraine was violating the terms of service of Starlink.
He did not actually do it with federal funds. These were donated Starlink terminals and service was paid for by SpaceX.
That’s the whole point, the US government allowed civilian technology to be used in war by a foreign government.
He did this with federal funds
Apparently this was before he got federal funds.
Didn’t he get subsidies for spaceX and Tesla?
Tesla got some preferential loans in 2010, it paid them off by 2013. Now it benefits from buyers of any brand electric car getting subsidies… so, “kind of”?
SpaceX got government contracts for specific services… which could have been inflated or not, but didn’t include Starlink (at least not officially).
This is different from direct subsidies like those given to Boeing, which also gets inflated contracts (see NASA’s SLS), but in addition gets preferential tax discounts and lowered export taxes.
Uh… People from Vietnam, Korea, and Afganistan would like to differ. (not an exclusive list).
“Declared”
Ok! They’d be objectively wrong, but yeah, differ away!
Although a bit irrelevant to the discussion about treason, I had to giggle at the WW2 bit. A simpler statistic would be when the US was not at war.
It’s mostly a semantics game. The US is involved in military conflicts all the time, but those are not officially “wars”, since the US going to war requires Congress to officially declare it. Therefore anytime the US was involved in a military conflict, but Congress did not issue a formal declaration of war, the US was not technically at war. He is correct in that the last time that Congress formally declared war was WW2.
However, all that said, that’s just silly semantic games, everyone understands that if the US deploys military forces against another nations military forces that is in fact war, and on that metric the US has had many wars since WW2.
Oh I get it, but we all know the definition is bullshit
This reeks of espionage. With a slight hint of war crimes?
This has nothing to do with being Ukrainian, but everything to do with being American, and actively working against American interests and official national and White house policies.
He is actively working against the support USA is providing, and has paid him for, and has ordered him not to sabotage or diminish.
This is treason, which is logical, since Elon Musk is a Trump supporter and they are both traitors and Elon Musk is a pedophile Nazi.
While I think we can all agree that it’s treasonous or at least treason adjacent, it however does not meet the specific legal definition of Treason used by the US. Like most of the rich and powerful he’s threading legal loopholes to do what he wants without actually violating the letter of any laws while simultaneously stomping all over the spirit of them. There’s a strong argument to be made that he is committing sabotage against Ukraine, but once again that’s not technically illegal in the US. I don’t even think Ukraine has an extradition treaty with the US, so even if Musk was charged and convicted in Ukraine, there isn’t really anything they could do about it.
At the end of the day, Ukraine fucked up by trusting and relying on a private contractor for their critical infrastructure. They were in a bind and needed a solution so they leapt at the first one that was dangled in front of them, but it was a hasty decision that has bitten them in the long run. For better or worse there’s a reason that no nation relies on infrastructure they don’t control for military support, and it’s exactly this situation. Even if the hardware was manufactured by a contractor, they would make sure their country was the ones in control of it. Starlink should have been at best an emergency stopgap while Ukraine found another long term solution specifically because it puts their military at the mercy of the whims of a foreign national (not to mention the operational security nightmare where now they have a private US corporation able to literally watch and track their military movements in real time).
Elon Musk is a pedophile Nazi.
While I think Musk is a slimy piece of shit that’s made a career out of stealing credit for other peoples ideas, this might be going too far.
While I think Musk is a slimy piece of shit that’s made a career out of stealing credit for other peoples ideas, this might be going too far.
Pedophile is something Elon Musk himself apparently finds it appropriate to call people he disagree with. So I call him a pedophile because I disagree with him.
A Nazi is because he has shown quite a bit of Nazi like opinions and sympathies.
Here he is literally using Nazi imagery: https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-shared-twitter-meme-nazi-soldier-image-2022-11?r=US&IR=T
Also I think it’s fair to call Russia a Nazi regime, and Musk has shown several times he sympathizes with Russia, and he has used Russian talking points about Ukraine.
Same goes for Trump and his very clear Russian sympathies and connections, and Elon Musk is a Trump supporter.
So all in all, it’s seems to me absolutely fair to call Elon Musk a pedophile Nazi. It’s not a title I generally use about other people, only Elon Musk, because he deserves that title 100%.
The US government never paid him to provide military service in Ukraine.
Treason is very narrowly defined in US law. The US is not at war with Russia, and the US is not Ukraine, so no, it’s not.
Sedition?
Again. The US government is not the Ukrainian government.
The most painful thing the government could do would be to sanction Musk and his companies for taking actions counter to US foreign policy prerogatives, but then Musk would just pull the plug on Starlink altogether. So nothing will be done.
Seeing as musk could unilaterally act in a fashion contrary to US foreign policy, in the interest of national security the government should take control of the company then.
Obviously that would be an extreme step but… how bad would that get?
That’s basically a variant of eminent domain, but I suspect it would be a hard case to argue. Ukraine chose to use Starlink, and the US governments power to invoke eminent domain is based on the common good provided to the US public via the seized property. It’s arguable whether the US public would see much if any value from the US government running Starlink unless they’re going to start providing free service to US citizens. There’s also the problem that there are plenty of other options that don’t require seizing of property.
The US could just nationalise it. SpaceX is basically running on government money anyway, just fold it into NASA.
NASA is basically being forced by Congress to funnel SLS program money into select contractors against NASA’s own assessments. I don’t think you want any of their hands near SpaceX if you want it to stay operational.
Also no. Americans do not legally owe any loyalty to the Ukrainian government.
as EU members but somehow, they decided to mess with Russia and we, EU citizen, were taken in this sh*.
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As an EU citizen, I fully support EU’s “messing” with Russia to support Ukraine, and I thank our NATO allies for keeping us “in this sh*”.
HAHA, nobody would say that, NO ONE except maybe if you have a relative in UA, still…
It’s easy to argue on internet but IRL, this pseudo unconditional support does not exist.
Nope, he wasn’t trying to overthrow the government of country he is a citizen of. He could be considered a non state actor though.
Enemy combatant? I’m running out of words here?
The Ukrainians can certainly call him that.
Notable examples of Non State Actors are: Blackwater(American security company) Wagner (Russian).
Weird “enemy” who’s actively supporting 99% of one’s war efforts.
By that rule of thumb, would the US be an “enemy” for being reluctant to supply latest gen weaponry to Ukraine?
Are you compelled by neurodiversity to be pedantic? Or do you just enjoy it?
How is the difference between “supporting in almost everything” vs. “attacking”, a pedantic one?
It’s cute how if Ukraine fights back that risks nuclear war, but when Russia invades a sovereign country it doesn’t
It’s like the rule of money, but with nukes: those who have the money/nukes, make the rules.
Ukraine doesn’t have nukes
Not anymore. They gave them to Russia under guarantees they wouldt do… pretty much everything they are doing right now.
I’m starting to think Russia might not be trustworthy…
Yeah, in the mid 90s the world was so optimistic about Russia, and frankly reassured about the nukes going to Russia, which was believed to be the more confidently governed nation state.
Everyone was still riding high on the cold war seemingly coming to a close.
Too bad so sad! Should have been smart like Kim Jong. Keep some nukes and you don’t get invaded.
Russia has set us back centuries on global nuclear disarmament.
No, I’m pretty sure they haven’t stopped anybody from disarming. But I think everyone should have nukes anyway.
You make a good point. Ukraine should build some of their own nukes.
US would never allow this. Ukraine is only useful if it can function as a buffer state for a proxy war.
They would have to figure out how to do it and they aren’t smart enough, better if they ask Russia to lend them some in exchange for surrendering all disputed territories.
wtf? bruh is this a Russian shill account?
Absolutely
It’s gotta be. They praise Musk for stopping a nuclear war but later say they believe every country should have nukes lmao
Sorry for being a realist!
You’re trolling but I unironically agree
That doesn’t address the previous claim in any manner.
I think he addressed it clearly enough. Russia invading Ukraine has no risk of Ukraine starting a nuclear war. Why? Because Ukraine does not have nukes.
A country like Russia, if facing an existential threat, has the capacity and incentive to use nuclear weapons. Why? Because they have nukes.
This is why even the US had hesitations last year (same time this Starlink episode happened) about sending certain types of weapons to Ukraine - out of fear of nuclear escalation. Now that Ukraine has drone striked Russian territory a few times it seems obvious because nuclear escalation hasn’t happened… but Musk was not alone in thinking this. Remember that US refused to give all sorts of weaponry at first. They didn’t want to give fighters jets, tanks, etc.
Hang on… That’s sabotage. Straight up. That’s a criminal offence no?
Yes. Assisting putler’s genocide against Ukrainian children is a war crime.
Yep, but he’s rich. I fully expect nothing to happen.
Yeah. According to the article, he straight up told the top military brass of the Biden administration right afterwards and they did nothing. No prosecution, no whistle-blowing to the press about a war crime. Nothing.
What do you suggest they do?
Prosecute him, of course! Maybe hit him with sanctions for directly supporting the Russian war effort? Because that’s what stopping an attack on their fleet is.
Prosecute him for what?
Are you dense?
Krolden is asking specifically what crime he should be charged with, implying you would struggle to find one. This certainly isn’t treason against the US because the US is not legally involved in the war. It’s unclear from their post whether they support Ukraine or Russia in the conflict so I’d suggest taking it at face value.
Why can’t you answer the question?
Check his party affiliation
What
For what countries laws? He’s not a Ukrainian citizen
So if you’re not an American you’re free to sabotage the US as much as you want and it’s not a crime?
So if you’re not an American you’re free to sabotage the US as much as you want and it’s not a crime?
Two points.
First, US laws apply on US soil, or to US citizens. If you’re neither, then cooperation and extradition agreements apply, if there are any.
Second, not sure where you got the “sabotage the US” part from:
- the request came from Ukraine
- from the beginning, Musk has been sabotaging Russia by disabling Starlink outside of Ukrainian borders, this was supported by both Ukraine and the US
- the Ukrainian request was for removing part of the sabotage so Ukraine could attack Russia with Ukrainian drones
- it wasn’t a US request, it didn’t involve any US assets, or any US operations
Maybe Ukraine should have asked the US, instead of asking a private non-Ukrainian citizen.
First, US laws apply on US soil, or to US citizens. If you’re neither, then cooperation and extradition agreements apply, if there are any.
Yup, and the US charges non-citzens that are not on their soil all the time. If they can’t get the extradition there’s nothing they can do about it unless the person sets foot on US soil, but that doesn’t stop it from being a criminal offence or from the person being charged.
Second, not sure where you got the “sabotage the US” part from
It was an analogy. The person I was replying to seemed to be saying “It can’t be a criminal offence because Musk isn’t Ukranian” which is nonsense. I assumed they where likely American and used an example of something closer to home to show why that is incorrect.
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First, US laws apply on US soil, or to US citizens. If you’re neither, then cooperation and extradition agreements apply, if there are any.
No, this is demonstrably false in many areas of law.
For example OFAC explicitly targets non US persons and organizations in sanctions enforcement. It is explicitly written into nearly every presidential order authorizing sanctions. I’d be happy to direct you to a few if you like, but you can just pick any from here: https://ofac.treasury.gov
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Yeah but it’s not called treason, treason is to your own country, ofc this is still an illegal offense in Ukraine but I don’t think it’s treason?
The parent comments are talking about sabotage. You added the word treason.
I think he replied to the wrong comment.
Elon is not the president, a leader, the military, nor a government. This parasite should be in a prison or a brig at the very least. This is fucking treason.
He controls 10K satellites, the electric car charging infrastructure, and a massive global communications platform. He’s too big to control. Good thing we hero-worshipped him for years. 🫢 🤭
He doesn’t personally control any of that. Each of those organizations could continue on without him, probably happier to be rid of him.
Yep. It’s always good to remind everyone that he didn’t build anything, nor did he found Tesla.
The boards and probably kick him out and be better off.
But people think he controls that. And, just as with hundred-dollar bills, what we believe gives things power.
Too big? Hold my TCP/IP stack…
He’s the richest man in the world. He could buy his own fucking island and never be arrested. Can one country shut down Twitter, Tesla, or SpaceX?
I’ve heard this a bit. Treason is a crime against your own country, no? How is this treason?
He’s twarthing the war effort of a country the US is supporting. I don’t know if he broke any laws but he’s defenitely on the government’s shitlist now.
he’s definitely on the government’s shitlist now
A billionaire who donates shitloads to both of the corporations masquerading as political parties? On the US government’s shitlist? Oh you sweet summer child…
Please head on back to reddit with that “sweet summer child” bullshit
Reddit doesn’t own GOT memes. Please head on back to anywhere other people aren’t with your “I decide what memes are allowed on Lemmy” bullshit.
Go cry on reddit about it
You go, I like it here when not having to deal with pompous gatekeepers like yourself 🤷
It’s not. His actions can be deplorable without actually being illegal. The Lemmy Bar Association is about as legally competent as my cat.
So if during the occupation of Afghanistan, I fought for the Taliban but only killed Afghan Army soldiers, I could return to the USA without any worries?
Giving comfort to the enemy has a name, what is it again?
US is not at war with Russia so it is not treason.
Jeez, people in this thread are hysterical.
lol Russia seems to think it’s at war with the US
If Russia wants to be at war with the US, they can issue a war declaration.
They haven’t so far, and they know why.
Nato is in war with russia. We train soldier, we send equipment, we give intelligence…If this is not being in a war I dont know…
US is in a proxy war-- totally different to an actual war. Was the Soviet Union at war with the US when the former funded and trained North Vietnam during the Vietnam War?
I think we can all admit, decades later…yes.
Of course people would say that. As much as I dislike Elon, he can’t be charged for treason because the US is not at war. The best that the US and allies could do is break contract with him or isolate him politically. But he’s rich and well connected so I doubt anything will happen to him.
Yes
St Helena.
Can donnie Bin Laden join him in there?
If he loves Russia so much, we should deport him there, and nationalize all his assets since SpaceX is a critical security apparatus and he’s clearly the foreign agent of a hostile power.
No no, give him to Ukrain, where they can charge and try him. Hopefully end up with life in prison or something better (worse?). Giving him to Russia just makes him more of a Russian asset.
Or OR we ask him to emerge from the Black Sea in his swim trunks to beguile both sides with his majestic beauty and raw sexuality, thereby ending the conflict and bringing peace to the regionneeds less hair transplant
He looks like Buffalo Bill here: “I’d fuck me!”.
(As Q Lazarus blasts in the background.)
This right here is why I think he was honeypotted by Russian agents who now have kompromat on him.
Then again, being a greedy douche seems his default mode.
This assumes he provides something of value beyond his money
Of value or not, he needs to be trotted out in front of Ukrainian justice. Giving him a free pass to live with his Russian buddies is NOT justice and is not a deterrent for others who would also practice such treachery. Stop trying to save him, you Russian sympathizer.
I think you misunderstand, I’m just saying what kind of “asset” would he be? I’m making a disparaging comment against him.
Perhaps save some of those knee-jerks for the doctor
Where would be the fun in that?
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I know it’s an anathema to most in the US but the government needs to step up and take Starlink and Space X off Musk for a fair price. He’s way too unstable to be trusted with tech that important.
A fair price would be musk in jail for his crimes.
I was gonna say $3.50, but jail works too.
Elon would want $4.20 cos he’s a fucking dolt
How about .420?
Loch Ness Monster 2024
The older I get the more socialist I am. Yeah, take it away from his dumb ass, but don’t keep it ffs. Make it employee owned. Make every business employee owned.
This is how I feel about Starship. Amazing progress is being made and he’s going to fuck it all up before it ever has a real mission. It’s sad. World’s first fully reusable launch vehicle capable of building real shit in space like colonies and infrastructure and it had to be him that did it.
Did he really do it? I’m pretty sure that was the engineers, which Musk is not.
But he says big words about rockets on Twitter. That means he’s an engineer, right?
What I meant was it had to be him that became the figurehead. I want someone with the drive and passion for space exploration, not someone with the passion for profit. A humble engineer or scientist who exists only to expand their knowledge and with plenty of fascination about the universe, not this dollar store Tony Stark wannabe narcissistic blowhard.
I guess I’m shouting at clouds though, because that’s how the system is set up. People don’t start companies because they want to do something awesome. They start them to make money.
Those people are too busy working to become figureheads
As much as I hate Musk, I doubt something that ambitious would be tried without him or someone like him. Same with starting a fully EV car company when everyone thought we were just but ready for it. Yes the engineers are the ones who do the work, but it takes someone willing to risk a lot of money, and the ability to bring in more money, to make that stuff happen.
Elon didn’t start shit. He bought Tesla.
He bought a small dying company and turned it into the most valuable one they ever existed. He made the Tesla we know today.
He didnt start a fully EV car company, HE BOUGHT ONE.
Quit holding people on high regard based on their cult of personality.
He made the Tesla we know today, the Tesla we know today would not have existed without Musk, it likely would have died a small silicon valley startup that nobody had ever heard of.
Just because I hate him doesn’t mean I won’t give him credit for doing what he did.
I’m pretty sure someone at Tesla or SpaceX put the Twitter idea in his head so he would fuck off and meddle with something else and let them do their actual work instead of dealing with his stupidity, micromanaging and narcissism.
Folks at the Boring Co are just keeping their heads down hoping he forgets they exist
He borrowed a billion from it to buy Twatter. What happens the next time he needs money?
I would love a SpaceX without Elon.
But the thing that made SpaceX what it is now is largely that it is not a government entity.
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Prison, certainly. This is a treasonous act.
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What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. We’re still playing catchup in the steal and murder numbers compared to billionaires.
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“How am I in this war?” Musk asked Isaacson. “Starlink was not meant to be involved in wars. It was so people can watch Netflix and chill and get online for school and do good peaceful things, not drone strikes.”
That’s a pretty glib way of looking at it.
Elon can’t be trusted with it, but NASA would just stall all progress on it for the next fifty years
All the downvoters should take a good close look at the cockup that is the SLS program
It’s his company that he built from the ground up, and the government doesn’t know what to do with stuff like satellites, that is best left to the free market
I mean if a person does anything directly affecting a war (for any side) I’d say that person is a wartime volunteer.
Wartime volunteers that have taken up arms are a absolutely viable target for military strikes.
Just saying 🤷♂️
Elon is a Russian bitch just like the rest of the billionaires.
It seems like privatization is working out great for us 👍
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If true, my respect for Musk just dropped a … well, none at all. It would be totally in character.
Make sure to save this for the next time that shitbird or one of his moron suckups tries to say he helped Ukraine. Fucker oughtta be treated the same as any Russian collaborator.
No, save this when he eventually sneaks in a putin missile somehow.
But the truly galaxy brain move is in this article:
After CNN’s reporting, Musk reversed course, tweeting “the hell with it … we’ll just keep funding Ukraine govt for free.”
Gwynne Shotwell, Musk’s president at SpaceX, was livid at Musk’s reversal, according to Isaacson.
“The Pentagon had a $145 million check ready to hand to me, literally,” Isaacson quotes Shotwell as saying. “Then Elon succumbed to the bullshit on Twitter and to the haters at the Pentagon who leaked the story.”
Musk confirmed idiot
That has been confirmed many times before this.
but he has money, thus he is extra super smart!
Worthington’s Law!
Eh, he got another 100,000 subscribers out of it.
Muskovite belongs in prison with the other russian war criminals.
Yeah we keep finding out more and more ways this mofo sucks. Somebody needs to strap him to the front of his stupid rocket and launch him into orbit.
Strap him to a rocket and aim it at a wall
Waste of a good rocket. Strap him in a Tesla and put it on autopilot
But that might damage the wall.
Maybe we could use an old 7-11 that’s scheduled for demolition anyway.
OH YEAH!
Between the drag and the weight it’d be a waste of payload capacity.
So use him as ejection mass to help the propulsion?
