- cross-posted to:
- firefox@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- firefox@lemmy.ml
STOCKHOLM, Sept 25 (Reuters) - Vienna-based advocacy group NOYB on Wednesday said it has filed a complaint with the Austrian data protection authority against Mozilla accusing the Firefox browser maker of tracking user behaviour on websites without consent.
NOYB (None Of Your Business), the digital rights group founded by privacy activist Max Schrems, said Mozilla has enabled a so-called “privacy preserving attribution” feature that turned the browser into a tracking tool for websites without directly telling its users.
Mozilla had defended the feature, saying it wanted to help websites understand how their ads perform without collecting data about individual people. By offering what it called a non-invasive alternative to cross-site tracking, it hoped to significantly reduce collecting individual information.
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As a user, ‘privacy preserving attribution’ is unappealing for a few reasons.
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It seems it would overwhelmingly benefit a type of website that I think is toxic for the internet as a whole - AI generated pages SEO’d to the gills that are designed exclusively as advertisement delivery instruments.
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It’s a tool that quantitatively aids in the refinement of clickbait, which I believe is an unethical abuse of human psychology.
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Those issues notwithstanding, it’s unrealistic to assume that PPA will make the kind of difference that Mozilla thinks it might. I believe it’s naive to imagine that any advertiser would prefer PPA to the more invasive industry standard methods of tracking. It would be nice if that wasn’t the case, but, I don’t see how PPA would be preferable for advertisers, who want more data, not less.
As a user, having more of my online activity available and distributed doesn’t help or benefit me in any way.
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It isn’t about indvidual privacy. It’s about not further empowering the wealthy and the entities that serve them. I’m disappointed with Mozilla, but this seems to have become par for the course
All the naysayers in these comments read like shills and if they aren’t, they really should read how the tracking in question works. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/privacy-preserving-attribution?as=u&utm_source=inproduct
While it was kinda lame for Mozilla to add it with it already opted-in the way they did, they were still completely open about how it works from the start with a link right next to the feature in settings (the same link pasted above) and it’s far less invasive than the other mainstream browsers.
It can be turned off too, easily. It requires unchecking a checkbox. No jumping through 10 different menus trying to figure out how to turn it off, like a certain other browser does with its monstrous tracking and data collection machine.
With ublock origin it’s also moot, since ublock origin blocks all the ads anyways.
Call me a fanboy if you want, I wont care. Firefox is still the superior browser in my opinion.
While it was kinda lame for Mozilla to add it with it already opted-in the way they did
That’s really the rub here. Reading the technical explainer on the project, it’s a pretty good idea. The problem is that they came down on the side of “more data” versus respecting their users:
Having this enabled for more people ensures that there are more people contributing to aggregates, which in turn improves utility. Having this on by default both demands stronger privacy protections — primarily smaller epsilon values and more noise — but it also enables those stronger protections, because there are more people participating. In effect, people are hiding in a larger crowd.
In short, they pulled a “trust us, bro” and turned an experimental tracking system on by default. They fully deserve to be taken to task over this.
Pest vs Cholera situation here…
Firefox should do an opt-in and they usually open new page with major updates with a pretty whats new changelog.
Just make it a headline topic ffs.Regarding it’s just clicking this one textbox:
Remember: Businesses also use Firefox. If you want to protect even a shred of your co-workers or clients you need to set up a fuck-load of tools to mass-disable this one little checkbox.This is just the beginnings of the enshittification of FF. There are others out there, Ladybird for example, deserves our attention being built completely from scratch engine and all. Though it’s not slated to become fully usable until 2026 because, they’re building the engine from scratch lol
Nah. Turning that feature on by default already set in stone for me their willingness to test the waters. If you don’t think auto-enabling anti-privacy features is a problem I don’t know what to tell you. It may be “small” right now, but just wait and see what else they will try to sneak in.
Use Librewolf and Mull instead.
Use Librewolf and Mull instead.
And keep an eye on the Ladybird browser, eventually FF forks will die should FF go full-tilt enshittification, but hopefully not till Ladybird is fully ready
I think a big part of the problem is that they didn’t show anyone a notification or an onboarding dialog or whatever about this feature, when it got introduced.
Firefox is still the superior browser in my opinion.
or the least bad, as I have been thinking about it lately
I think a big part of the problem is that they didn’t show anyone a notification or an onboarding dialog or whatever about this feature, when it got introduced.
Right. Not only didn’t they notify anybody, but they took to Reddit to defend the decision not to notify anybody:
we consider modal consent dialogs to be a user-hostile distraction from better defaults, and do not believe such an experience would have been an improvement here.
Which is strange, because Mozilla has no problem with popups in general.
Librewolf
is this something I need to do every single update?
The answer will always from now on be ‘yes’, for every annoying privacy invading toggle you have to change, it is in the best interest of the software creators to force you to do it in the way that benefits them most.
Our opinions are no longer as important as their ability to harvest our data.
Our opinions are no longer as important as their ability to harvest our data.
Either you control your hardware and software OR some parasite does.
Your choice folks
Ok I’ll just go grab some sand and refine it into silicon then bake my own chips then code my own kernel and OS and applications because that’s the only way to ‘control’ it.
Companies need to be held to regulatory standards about our private data, and the ONLY reason those regulations don’t exist is because every FUCKDAMN politician in the world was born before TV had color
I don’t disagree but bro… We both know dsddy Sam ain’t saving Z slaves… This here country got elites with slaver mentality
This is how you get Temple OS
No, schizophrenia is how you get Temple OS
Mad dude made great OS due to paranoia…
No it was a shitty OS with very VERY little hardware support,
and he built it because the voices in his head told him to build a temple and he was too lazy to be a carpenter.
Have you actually installed it? Because I have. It’s BARELY an OS
The ‘security’ mumbo jumbo is mainly to cover his networking incompetence
It’s mainly because of “perks.”
Call me a fanboy if you want,
I will.
It can be turned off too, easily.
Same for Chrome.
With ublock origin it’s also moot, since ublock origin blocks all the ads anyways.
This is a non-argument; uBO ins’t even developed by Mozilla, so they don’t deserve credit for it.
Is there any opportunity to rage about Firefox that you don’t take? Seriously, so predictable
No, there isn’t. Just block me.
Done and done.
If anyone is on the fence this absolute tool shed has this in their profile:
I have no sympathy for GAFAM, nor for Mozilla.
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Hope this results in Firefox changing it to be opt in and not result in Firefox going the way of the dodo - We can’t have Chromium be the only option, and without somebody developing base Firefox, the forks are going to die off
There’s always the Ladybird browser and an independent open source browser engine called Servo that’s under The Linux Foundation
If the Servo engine + accompanying browser will look like a Terminal pulled out of darkness into a desktop environment or an app developed in 1998 by Microsoft/any other UI designer at the time this is nothing I’d would want to use at work nor at home even if I am paid to use it…
I could see tor browser continuing to be developed. There are enough users who are technical enough to take on a browser project.
Yeah but Firefox and signal are both stalling and taking weird routes otherwise. It feels like people in charge either don’t understand the usebase or just botching it on purposes while getting paid out.
It is OS so if it gets that bad, adults will need to pitch and pay a team to get the job done to cater to our needs. Devs can’t slave for us for free at some point enjoyers will have to pay for all Foss goodness.
Shit ain’t free and you don’t win wars without funding. While most of US is poor AF or don’t give a fuck, I am pretty sure avg fediverse enjoyer is in a bit stronger economic position.
Either way, we know big tech is coming for all of us…
Falkon browser isn’t a bad choice, there is no ad tracking, There’s block auto playing video function built in. All around a solid privacy respecting browser, compared to Firefox and Chrome.
I abandoned Firefox for Falkon for the last 2 years and hadn’t regretted it.
For good privacy (from fingerprinting) it is undoubtedly a bad choice.
Please stop taking the dark path, firefox…
There are no ethical companies, only ones that are currently more profitable to operate as if they were.
And they rely on our good will…
Use the forks folks
Hmm, interesting. I would expect NOYB to not just file complaints for no reason, but my understanding of PPA is that things get aggregated, which would make it irrelevant for the GDPR. Either I’m missunderstanding something, or NOYB or Mozilla is…
100% agree, anonymized data is pretty much irrelevant to the GDPR. An exception would be if it can be de-anonymized with reasonable means.
User-unique gets collected, and then the user-unique data sent to a remote server.
Only on the remote server will this data be aggregated, or so Mozilla says.
I see these comments are nothing but good discussion!
Turning the feature on by default is bad, but I don’t think that legal complaints are the way to go as well as the aggressive tone of NOYB. Firefox is the only browser developed and maintained professionally which has the potential of offering some privacy on the web. Given the importance of web browsers volunteer work just won’t cut it with the amount of features and security concerns that a browser needs.
NOYB would’ve done much better by talking to Mozilla directly and advocating for them to do the right thing going for a legal complaint as the final nuclear option. If the was the case, then good that there’s a complaint, but the article does not indicate the any of this happened.
NOYB would’ve done much better by talking to Mozilla directly and advocating for them to do the right thing going for a legal complaint as the final nuclear option. I
It has been already vastly demonstrated by Mozilla, that going to them and talking to them about how they shouldn’t do shitty things doesn’t work.
If it takes legal action to even try and save the browser, I’m all for it.
Okay, but what if after all this legal action Mozilla decides that it’s no longer worth serving the privacy conscious crowd? Which browser will you use then?
Things only happen in a desirable direction if there is dialogue. Linus made the decision about making Linux GPL but he is against aggressive enforcement. He thinks it’s much smarter to go and slowly convince the offending parties that it’s in their benefit.
Okay, but what if after all this legal action Mozilla decides that it’s no longer worth serving the privacy conscious crowd? Which browser will you use then?
Firefox.
Just because the execs decide to stop serving the software, doesn’t mean the copies (and source code!) already out in the wild will automagickally stop functioning. You’ll still be able to visit websites the day after, the month after, the year after… And there’s still the devs, since they’re not the execs.
By the time there’s issues, there’ll still be the forks. Someone will have already step up to fork and keep the work on their own, too; the name just weighs enough that someone will want to be “the next Firefox” (not “the next Mozilla”). Or even better, the devs (obvs not the execs) will have jumped ship into any one of the various alternative projects such as ladybird, or might even have started a new project from scratch, hopefully intending for it to be a leaner and better browsr.
Sorry, but I don’t believe that’s realistic. Devs need to be paid. To be paid they need execs. Donations might sustain a small project, but not a web browser. Linux is developed primarily by devs employed by the big corporations. It would never survive on donations and volunteer labour. Same for Firefox. A browser is too complicated to be run as a GitHub project.
You can have one or two execs, as a treat; but certainly they don’t need to be paid crazy figures like what has been the case with Mozilla as of late. It’s not like they’re that important, in particular for the kind of project something like Firefox is (which could do with eg.: coop governance).
NOYB has the right to send a complaint if it think a company infringe upon right to privacy. Mozilla isn’t entitled to special treatment or special notice before filling a complaint.
Mozilla should have expected this. They claim to defend users privacy so they should understand why consent for data collection is important. Also there was public outcry and criticism of opt-out, and yet they haven’t backed down.
If Mozilla resolve these issues, NOYB could ask for the complaint to be dropped. I hope they do resolve this, and do drop the complaint.
there is this approach where if the neighbor is loud, you first try to speak with them, and if they don’t care then you go to the police. have you heard of it?
Turning the feature on by default is bad, but
Nope, no further. Downvoted and blocked.
Don’t you fucking try and justify this.
talking to Mozilla directly and advocating for them to do the right thing going for a legal complaint as the final nuclear option
Fuck that, they know what they’re doing and they know what the right thing is. Mozilla is the enemy for some time now, Firefox’s development is basically held hostage by a shitty corporation and a toothless foundation.
Right, but what other browser are you going to use?
So what, are we giving Mozilla a free pass to do anything now? Is the new bar “not quite as shitty as Google”?
Absolutely not and is not what I said. Just that due to lack of alternatives it’s not really beneficial for privacy enthousiasts to make the only browser with privacy features dislike the community it’s working for. If NOYB has the resources for a legal complaint, it has the resources to lead this dialogue.
Why do you assume they haven’t warned Mozilla in advance?
Also, Mozilla was fully aware that what they were doing is in breach of GDPR. I find it extremely hard to believe that the makers of Firefox are not fully familiarized with it by now.
Last but not least Mozilla is doing this for financial gain. It’s selling pur data to advertisers. Why should we excuse it? It’s a very hostile act.
If Mozilla has hit rock bottom and has been reduced to selling our data to survive then that’s that. We’ll find another way and another FOSS browser. Accepting it is not an option.
Gee…
Waterfox Ice Dragon Chromium LibreWolf
Shall I go on?
Firefox Firefox Chromium Firefox
Fixed that one for you.
Netscape Communicator, Netscape Communicator, KHTML, Netscape Communicator
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🙄
doesn’t sound good
Oh the Firefox fanboys be downvoting. What’s that now, guys? Do you think you’re still better than Chrome/Google? Didn’t think so!
Would’ve been a different story if Mozilla backpedaled and apologized by not allowing this to happen. But they’re defending it, which means they INTENDED it. You’ve got nothing, fanboys.
Fuck Firefox.
Show 'em, that’ll teach these nasty fanboys! Reads like writing that got you a big dopamine rush.
I agree, commenting “Use Firefox!!!1!11” on every post remotely related to (other) browsers doesn’t help anybody, just like commenting “Use Linux!!!1!11” on every post about a vulnerability in Windows doesn’t contribute anything meaningful at all.
Look, I also disagree with what Mozilla is doing here and yes, they 100% deserve the flak they are getting for it. But - like most things in life - it’s not black and white. Firefox could still be less intrusive to your privacy than Chrome (I’m not saying it necessarily is, but it could be that way). A different example: your mail provider could track every time you login to your account, or it could analyze and track the content of every email you receive. One is clearly worse than the other, right?
Which browser(s) do you recommend/use?
Hopefully this makes some of the Firefox shills finally realize it’s time to change our recommendations.
I’ve heard so much shit lately about Firefox, it has become a sinking ship and I’m eager to see who picks up the shards and runs with it.
And what else should be recommended?
The choice is basically between Firefox or skinned Chromium.
Do you really want to experience first-hand just why Internet Explorer was this hated?
Here’s a hint: de facto monopoly on browser market that allowed them to control the web standards back then and their ideas were not good.it has become a sinking ship and I’m eager to see who picks up the shards and runs with it.
I don’t think you have any idea how much work it takes to create a new browser.
Labybird is a completely new upcoming open source browser, complete with its own from scratch engine
Theres also Servo an open source engine led by the Linux Foundation
Ah yes, let’s recommend the browser that is “targeting a first Alpha release for early adopters in 2026.”
I think there’s kind of a 3rd choice, WebKit.
Chrome was great, till it wasn’t. IE always was bad. Edge is chromium.
Firefox has stayed closer to “don’t be evil” than many companies. Is say far more than the other options.
WebKit is really only available on Apple devices in any meaningful way.
Completely agree. I understood WebKit to be a different browse engine than chromium or Firefox.
While chromium and Firefox have wider platform options, there’s “kind of” a 3rd runner even though locked to apple.
I agree Linux and open source is king.
I think there’s kind of a 3rd choice, WebKit.
That’s where Chromium came from originally, so not really 3rd.
I was thinking WebKit was closer to Netscape in origin.
You made me go look it up. 😉 and I think we’re both wrong…. (Here’s my edit…. Poster above is right. I read it wrong, so only I am wrong on the origin of WebKit)
Below from Wikipedia:
WebKit started as a fork of the KHTML and KJS software libraries from KDE.
On April 3, 2013, Google announced that it had forked WebCore, a component of WebKit, to be used in future versions of Google Chrome
Hopefully this makes some of the Firefox shills finally realize it’s time to change our recommendations.
There’s still nothing better, you just have to be careful to block all their moneymaking bullshit attempts like save-your-shit-into-our-pocket and virginity-preserving assfucking. I use Fennec on android, though.
There are forks, like libre wolf (desktop) and mull (Android) that don’t ship with some of the bullshit, Firefox ships.
Yeah, and using those is pretty good, but they don’t really do anything you can’t do just by changing settings in Firefox, and if Firefox doesn’t have any users those die right along with it.
LibreWolf is better, includes ublock and no tracking by default.
There are good chromium based browsers too, I’m not aware of Vivaldi having any major controversies or shady business decisions in recent years, it has a built in adblock thats independent of chromium’s upstream.
Iif you disqualify every browser due to its upstream having issues then you should probably revert to using CURL or something convoluted like what richard stallman does. Every browser that exists today is a fork of some browser that previously was good but started to suck.
Ladybird is a completely new open source browser with it’s own from scratch engine, so that’s one that hasn’t been forked from any other browser
The problem is that Librewolf’s continued existence depends on Firefox continuing to exist. And while I like Vivaldi (but not its closed-sourceness), if all browsers end up being Chromium-based, Google still has an effective monopoly on web standards.
I don’t think chromium should ever be encouraged. That is the one browser family trying and mostly succeeding at swallowing up the Internet. Google already has way too much power over the Internet, and it will only get worse if people don’t start leaving their ecosystem
No they won’t. They’ll double down by saying “UH YEAH BUT UH, NOT AS BAD AS GOOGLE!” like that is going to make it sound better.
“B… but Mozilla fights for privacy and the free internet!!!11!!11!!”
Well deserved
