is it because of the Israel lobby, or because Israel serves some sort of strategic purpose?
Mearsheimer seems to think that it’s mostly because of the lobby. I think I agree with him; I really can’t think of any unique strategic purpose that Israel serves for the US. if Israel disappears tomorrow, the US still has colossal military bases in the Gulf states, it still has friendly governments in Jordan and Egypt, it occupies Syria and Iraq, it has ISIS to stage crazy terrorist attacks, etc. what exactly does Israel do that’s worth all the negatives for the US?
I watched Finkelstein’s recent interview on Al Jazeera and he mentioned he disagreed with Mearsheimer. just curious what everyone here thinks.
Because it’s a protectorate, an extension of US power. It’s close enough to seize the Suez Canal if required, and joins with Gibraltar as the nodes for controlling access to the Mediterranean.
Plus it prevents any kind of pan-Arab state forming that would want to include Egypt, which was considered to be on the cards in the 1970s and 80s, and can be used and is frequently used to bomb US enemies such as Syria and Iran with less risk of igniting a direct confrontation because it’s done by proxy.
Israel serves as a counter to Iran in the Middle East is why
Why not use the Saudis for that? They’re an ‘ally’ and hate Iran too.
Because the Saudis would get overrun by Iran within a month
Also, more “allies” is always better than less “allies”
They provide a lot of oil. Israel can’t exactly threaten to befriend all its neighbors to get what it wants from the US. But Saudi Arabia can threaten to hold back oil, and it can also lobby OPEC to do the same, or at least the Muslim states. Gas prices rising is much more dangerous to American politicians than Israeli politicians criticizing them
Imperialism, anti-muslim bigotry, trying to fulfill some holy Christian destiny or some shit, having a puppet in the middle east that they can use as a proxy without getting their own hands too dirty, etc.
Israel eats ordanance that would be directed at US bases in the other places if it didn’t exist. if militant groups and neighboring countries didnt have the more pressing issue of Israel they could coordinate directly against the US.
is it because of the Israel lobby, or because
1 is a part of 2, israel’s lobbying and financial + technology influence also serves US interests. it backfires too like with giving shittons of tech to the Chinese.
Israel serves some sort of strategic purpose?
Israel is really the perfect sub-imperialist state for the US. It’s more than simply military power projection.
The former. Israel is a proxy to control the ME, contain China and Russia, and ensure supply of oil, it’s prices, and control over the resource. I think the value of the USD is that oil is traded in dollars; Israel ensures that dominance.
It is a vassal, but like a march vassal. You need them even if you don’t like them. They are subordinate but they can tell you off.
One thing I got from Rashid Khalidi’s The Hundred Year War on Palestine is that the Zionist entity is like a chaos dragon (sorry for the JBP term but it really fits well) for the entire Middle East. That role is incredibly beneficial to the US. They keep all the other MENA states from acting with a united purpose. Essentially, the Zionist entity keeps them down and their leaders dependent on the US. Every neighboring nation must devote signficant resources - financial, political, social - just to try and keep Israel from fucking up their shit all the time.
How this is done is multi-faceted. Of course there’s Israel’s decades-long history of attacking neighbors unprovoked (literally what’s happening in Syria right now). By preventing any right of return, the status of Palestinian refugees in places like Lebanon and Jordan creates tremendous social pressures which leads to social and political instability. Basically, if you are a leader (elected or otherwise) in the Middle East, you have two choices. Either side with the US/Israel (and against the Palestinian people), or don’t side with them and Israel will find reasons to bomb you or mess with you or try and get the US to view you as part of the “axis of evil” or supporting terrorists or whatever.
If the Zionist entity were to be destroyed, you would almost immediately see other MENA nations act in a more unified and confident manner - which is a very direct and real threat the US’ strategic position in the region and the flow of oil.
In If We Burn it talks a bit about how the US viewed Israel as a regional counterweight to widespread Arab socialism in the 50s and 60s.
A) because it serves as a giant unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle east
B) because of the Israel lobby
C) because Israel destroying Palestine completely is the beginning of the end times according to the evil apocalyptic death cult known as evangelical christianity
Mearsheimer seems to think that it’s mostly because of the lobby
Man the spooks are really on one lately. did you notice Hersh trying to discredit the Russian govt by pretending a terrorism warning that had expired like a month before should have covered Crocus Hall attack.
Hersh also treated info he got about the Ukrainians and the British somehow being more independently responsible for the Nord Stream attack than the US very credulously. In light of this I have to assume it’s a further expression of the CYOA disclosure to journalists who have a patronage relationship with the CIA Doug Valentine pointed out in The CIA as Organized Crime (when we see the white house try to hide behind ISIS K to do some kind of hybrid warfare shit of politically damaging muh dictators to topple them)
To destroy Europe, as a short to medium-term goal.
Just like with Ukraine, the de-stabilization of the Middle East especially in Levant will generate a huge wave of war refugees emigrating from the region, and the most likely place they’re going to end up in is Europe.
The influx of refugees over the next decade will strain the European economy to its limits, which is already undergoing a permanent de-industrialization phase as the continent pursues an austerity measure following the sanctions blowback against Russia and Nord Stream sabotage.
Stoking cultural and social tensions, the rise of far right nationalist/fascist parties becomes imminent, and deteriorating living standards will force Europeans (especially the younger generations and skilled professionals) and in turn to flee from their home country.
The US will reap the benefit by absorbing the European capital and immigrant labor fleeing from a dying region as the events continue to unfold.
What you need to understand is that the US is now fully a financial/landlord empire. It simply cannot compete on industrial terms, especially against China. The only way it can move forward and stay afloat is by devastating the other regions and reaping the gains from the fall out, just like how private equity firms leveraging high stake loans to buyout established corporations and hollowing them out from the inside, then bail with bags of money while the husk of the corporations are left saddled with huge ton of debt.
These financial capitalists have no interests in building or running the corporations, just using various kinds of tricks and means to suck a corporation dry before latching onto a new host. This is exactly what the US is doing to Europe today.
And Israel is simply one of their means of achieving the broad strategic goals of the US empire.
Implying that “refugees” will hurt “Europe” is fucking racist
It’s not, it’s a capitalism problem. Europe is now a dead zone and it does not and will not have the economic capacity to absorb an influx of refugees. You have to understand that the European capital is already fleeing to the US thanks to Biden.
This is why so many countries are afraid of climate refugees over the next few decades. It’s going to stoke social and cultural tensions to their max and bring about a wave of fascist regimes all across Europe. The Ukrainian refugees are already taking a toll on the European economy, and it’s only going to get worse from there.
America, on the other hand, is well situated to absorb the European refugees and most importantly, the capital they bring. As I said, it’s a capitalism problem, and the empire is doing exactly what it does best to reap the benefits from this.
Unlike other vassals outside of the anglo islands and frogland, the zionists have their own nukes (I know Japan and maybe the RoK have the capability to develop nukes quickly, but it’s not the same as having preexisting wmds. Being under america’s nuclear umbrella also isn’t the same.)
That alone gives them tremendous leverage, in addition to the various reasons that others have commented on this thread
is it because of the Israel lobby, or because Israel serves some sort of strategic purpose?
Strategic purpose. Israel is America’s power projection into the middle east. It provides the base of operations with which to destabilise all of it into rival groups while they exploit it.
Much like Africa they fear the strength of a middle east that might one day unite against them. Same goes for latam
Originally to prevent a Soviet-like state from emerging in the MENA, imagine a Soviet Union with more people, 80% of the world’s energy reserves and 75% of the world’s phosphate supply, it wouldve been one hell of a developmental giant
The state department from the 50s was clear about turning the Arab World into a “mosaic of princely statelets”
“If there were not an Israel, we’d have to invent one.” - Joe Biden
if Israel disappears tomorrow
How? I know that’s not what your argument hinges on, but let’s get one thing out of the way: Israel has nukes and a solid second strike capability, is is the only nuclear power in the region as well, it has kept armed resistance to the occupation under ever tightening control since before an actual Zionist settler state existed on the territory, it has continuously expanded its territory and keeps doing so, it isn’t going anywhere. Yes, it is also a US client state that needs Amerikan bomb shipments to continue the systematic displacement of 2 million people that is needed for their new waterfront properties, but even if the US and other Western states would cease all support tomorrow, Israel’s existence in itself isn’t threatened in any way. This is important to point out, given how commonly a reasoning like “you’re an antisemite when you deny Israel’s right to exist!” is used as a thought-terminating cliché in my country. Sorry for being contrarian here, just felt i needed to get into this before i answer you question.
Losing Israel as an ally nowadays mostly means that it is free to ally with other world powers, who would gain an additional foothold in the Levante and possible mediterranean naval bases. If, for example, Russia could further improve its historically good relations towards Israel, which would be a realistic scenario if the US would cease support, it would mean Russia has a contingency to their only meditarranean naval base in Syria. It would also make the situation in the Middle East even less predictable than it is now, Israel and Iran being allied with the same superpower would be quite the bummer for Saudi-Arabia and Turkey. So i agree that Israel does not have a unique strategic purpose, but it has some strategic purpose for US imperialism.
The Russians don’t have the constant tens of billions needed to sustain Israel if the US pulls out
And Iran definitely would not remain friendly to Russia if it decides to back Israel to the hilt, which would guarantee Russia would make an enemy of every major state in the region aside from Israel
Also Russia doesn’t have the capital and pull to keep Egypt under control like the US does and Egypt has always been the crucial determinant of the conflict
Basically it all boils down to the fact Russia can’t control the middle east because it doesn’t have the petro dollar and it never will
