Hamas’ brutal attacks in Israel on October 7 killed at least 1,400 people and the group took more than 200 hostages, according to Israeli authorities. In the wake of the assault, Israel launched an aerial bombardment of Gaza that Palestinian health officials say has killed more than 5,000 people. Israel also announced a “complete siege” on the enclave, withholding vital supplies of water, food and fuel.
how much fuel is hamas hoarding right now?
I’m guessing you mean Hamas’ military branch? Because it’s the Hamas Government that is running out of fuel, plus all the UNRWA schools and NGO hospitals.
So even if Hamas’ military has fuel, It’s not enough for 2 million people, so it doesn’t matter.
This siege is preventing basic goods from entering to innocent civilians. Trying to get people to look away is really lame.
It’s 500,000 liters. You don’t just get to say that doesn’t matter. Especially when the fuel the UN brought in was also stolen by Hamas. If Hamas is stealing and hoarding all the fuel, then they do carry the blame for the lack of fuel. What good is it doing anyone if everything there will just be stolen by Hamas and then used for further attacks?
The lack of fuel is caused by Israeli illegal blockage on Gaza (which is also a war crime btw). Yes, there is a chance the military side of Hamas has fuel tucked away, but the main cause is still Israel stopping any goods from entering.
By the end of today, if volunteers can no longer bring fuel to the hospitals, about 130 babies are risking death within minutes without incubators. Let’s not fucking kid ourselves… Israel is the problem. Whatever Hamas “steals” as you claim (something the UNRWA later denied) is only a drop in the ocean when we talk about 2 million residents who haven’t gotten basic needs that would normally flow into Gaza on a daily basis.
Those 130 babies will literally not die. For starters.
How are you ignoring the fact that Hamas takes the fuel. The UN just said they had their fuel stolen. So those babies will die, more Israelis will die, and more Palestinians will die.
If the UN had forces guarding supplies and stopping theft, that might be different. But you are asking Israel to allow in supplies that are be and will continue to be stolen and used in attacks against Israel. Ignoring that it will not save civilians.
So why doesn’t Israel distribute fuel to civilian Palestinians in Gaza?
Because they’d be attacked, kidnapped, and/or killed. Seriously what kind of question is this? How do you propose they go into Gaza, distribute the aid, and not get attacked. Hamas is rolling right up to the aid and stealing it. Are you suggesting Israel completely occupy the region and maintain security in order to distribute aid?
No, I’m suggesting that Israel is a genocidal colonial force that needs to fuck off.
What do you mean by fuck off?
Because their government, Hamas, is in charge of that. The logistics to distribute fuel would require reoccupation of the Gaza Strip.
Ah yes for Israel to give humanitarian aid it has to commit 2-3 more war crimes.
I feel like we’re missing the part where Israel could just turn the power back on… if Hamas has fuel to run their weapons what is even the point of cutting electricity?
Generally, as a competent government, you don’t attack and call for the genocide of your neighbors; starting a war. And then expect that neighbor to fund your war effort.
Hamas steals fuel supplies from the UN in Gaza. So supplying the UNWRA fuel is going to give Hamas more fuel.
If the UN want a humanitarian aid they need to send blue hats entitled to protect the aid like they do in Africa.
If they actually get it. Hamas has already shown they will take it and not give it to their citizens.
Unless Hamas decides to prioritize its citizens, there is nothing the world can do and they are dead.
So, to Israel, are Gazans less important? Because Israel as already shown they will bomb the Rahah checkpoint and not allow fuel in knowing full well it’s needed for generating electricity and providing clean water?
I’m genuinely asking: what do you think is Israel’s responsibility towards civilians in Gaza and their own hostages stuck in Gaza as well?
As with any nation - yes, your citizens are less important than mine.
I won’t comment on the checkpoint as I am not informed on the full story. I have however formally studied war crime in the general sense (not this specific example though).
Blockades are legitimate and commonly used in warfare - denying supplies are practical and it can be reasonably assumed they will find their way into the hands of the enemy. Saying that, it must be proportional and cause as little disruption to the civilian population as possible.
hamas has shown it will cross borders to kill and abduct civilians, and kill them at a later date (undisputed war crime there).
Hamas has shown they will claim aid destined for civilians
hamas has shown they will withhold supplies from it citizens
Therefore, it can be reasonably assumed that any supplies crossing the border will be used in direct action against Israel. If the aid was finding its way to civilians, was being utilized for humanitarian reasons and distinctly separately from armed forces supplies it could be argued that the blockade is now illegal. This would also apply if Hamas was no longer a threat.
Israel responsibility lies with its citizens first. Does it suck for civilians stuck in the middle - absolutely.
@HappycamperNZ
It’s not a food fight. Deliberate starvation is against international law..
I don’t know what you “studied formally” but either you misunderstood what it means to consider the effects on the civilian population, or the person teaching you was some kind of monster.
Reading your link - deliberate starvation of civilians with intent to cause civilian harm or death, or eliminate a part of the population is indeed a war crime.
Also quoted from your link - a blockade is only intended to remove resources from adversarial forces, impediment of humanitarian aid is incidental harm. They key difference here is intent, and with Hamas seizing aid crossing the border and not distributing it any reasonable person would agree that it is stopping supplies to opposing forces.
Does it suck for civilian population - absolutely. But its not a war crime. Personally I think a coalition of multiple countries needs to go in and remove hamas, get aid set up for the civilian population and then investigate crimes on both sides - but that’s not going to happen.
fuck genocidal zionist Israel.
Yeah, we know you came in here with an agenda and no intention of unbiased discussion.
If the people living in Gaza don’t belong to israel to which nation to they belong?
Legally, none. If you mean for travel purposes (passport), then they can apply for that with the Palestinian authority. I haven’t a clue what their tax system is, but they aren’t being paid to Israel. Stateless people exist all over the world. And some people start in one nation, never move, and up in another. This isn’t even a point of contention in the situation.
If Hamas steals the fuel. Allowing the fuel in is defacto allowing the military your fighting to resupply.
Hamas, as the governing body of the Gaza Strip, has a duty to supply it’s populace with sufficient good when conducting a war. It’s inability to do so it’s Hamas’ fault, not the fault of the person they declared war upon.
Collective punishment is a war crime. Why is this being forgotten here? Why does Israel get an okay to commit war crimes and blame it on the population and a government the majority of them didn’t even vote for in 2006 (you do the math, 1.1m Gazans are children, and the other 1.1m other adults needed to have been at least 18 in 2006, and on top of that it was a 40% vote, so the excuse you are making is pure BS to be honest… putting the fault on a “governing body” of a population that is not able to govern itself or have free elections since ever, with Israel making every step in their lives infinitely worse and holding out water).
Israel = genocide.
Because it’s not collective punishment. Collective punishment is things like the Bombing of Dresden or the Battle of Britain where a military/air force explicitly target civilian infrastructure. Declining to supply your enemy isn’t a war crime.
Israel disengaged from the Gaza Strip in 2004/2005. They’ve been self governing since then. Had they (Israel) forced a regime change in the past they would have been criticized by the world for reneging on their commitment to a two state solution. It’s not a great situation, but polling suggests that Hamas is incredibly popular in both the Strip and the West Bank.
Oh, and blockades are not war crimes and can be reasonably consider proportional to reduce the chances and effect of further attacks against its civilians (which were undoubtedly war crimes).
Holding the blockade to punish civilians once hamas is no longer a threat would be a war crime, but not there yet.
You mean they are regulated by international law. When was the last time you heard about Israel not breaking international law? I’m serious.
Yes, the literal definition of crime is against the law.
I haven’t heard of them breaking the law ever - didn’t hear about Palestine either until they crossed the border a few weeks ago.
Then you have a lot of reading to catch up with.
Yes, last one i saw was something like 1,500 years of history that lead to this one?
Unfortunately the blockade we are discussing is only a few weeks old.
I don’t want to sound unemphatic, but would YOU wish to be born to a world like that? I know I’ll get downvoted for this, but I’d like to take a real look for once. Sure, every life is precious, and that part of the world might have different views of what is good and bad about it, but a fucking warzone? It’s like giving birth and taking care of a baby in in Ukraine.
Just like people don’t say that rebel israeli soldiers acting illegally committed whatever atrocities and just say it was israel (or even worse the jewish people) i do not make the distinction between the terrorists sub divisions.
spoiler
No but for real, New Zealand does, same with the UN. Do you think you’re better than New Zealand and the UN?
New Zealand funds terrorism because of it.
Not according to the US, do you have any sources to back your claim?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/eu-funded-water-pipelines-hamas-rockets/
Hamas converts domestic aid into war supplies.
rebel soldiers? no, the Israeli government gives medals for killing children, I have no clue where you got the rebel soldier bit from.
So in competent governments, the Civilian government controls the military. So how much fuel is Hamas hoarding.
Honestly, if I were Hamas now and the next step was trying to fight off an Israeli invasion of the Gaza strip (where they will enter to do Deir Yassin just x100), then hanging on to the little fuel I have would actually save more lives on the long run /:
It’s 2023, they can do Deir Yassin x100 without an invasion. A 48 hour traditional artillery barrage; similar to what Russia has done to cities in Eastern Ukraine would do it.
That’s a hell of a what about ism.
Putting pressure on the population like this, is putting pressure on the government to spend critical resources, to make them less capable of fighting a war. It is a valid, and historically often used, siege strategy.
The main point, is the civilians in Gaza are trapped, they’re not allowed to leave, they don’t have water, they don’t have power to make water, they are suffering. That’s the takeaway, ending the suffering should be the goal.
Even if Hamas gave up all of their fuel reserves, which the reserving for the ground assault they’ve been told is coming, even if they gave up all of their fuel, the siege would not be ended, and the civilians would still not have water. It might be delayed by a day. But it doesn’t change the situation that exists right now
Steal the fuel from the terrorists, problem solved
ok, but the terrorists are not importing any new fuel, what do the hospitals do tomorrow when the terrorist fuel is gone?
Hope that the terrorist realize the urgency and capitulate so blockades can be lifted. Hope that Israel is more benevolent than their current government. What more can they do?
I’m sympathetic, and I would like the terrorists to stop terrorizing, but if every member of Hamas lined up and surrendered to the Israeli military peacefully today, they’d just be executed tomorrow. So from their perspective it’s better to go out in blaze of Glory, so I don’t see them surrendering.
the terrorists are symptoms of apartheid. Until apartheid goes away, there will be a new fresh crop every so often.
The political climate does not exist, for the foreseeable future, to remove any blockades. Those are not going away
All I see is continued human suffering.
If Hamas cared about the civilians of Gaza even slightly, they would give up their fuel to allow the hospitals to provide services. They would give up their fuel to allow the people to drink clean water.
They would surrender and face execution so that millions would not suffer. That is the honourable thing to do, and many times in wars and conflicts of the past this is what leaders have done when they know they are beaten. They don’t stand a chance in open combat and they know it, they are only prolonging the suffering of the people around them. If they want to go out in a blaze of glory they should do so as martyrs that surrendered so that others may live.
Instead they are hoarding fuel in expectation of an invasion that they invited by attacking their neighbour.
Starving the people of Gaza is unacceptable and classified as a war crime. But personally I see no reason why any fuel should be supplied when Hamas has a sufficient stockpile to meet their needs. 500,000L is not a day’s worth of fuel, it’s a large volume that could make for weeks of power for essential services. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities, but Hamas are the ones who are unwilling to do what it takes to end it.
As long as war crimes are okay, if the other side does the war crimes too. Then I guess there’s no problems
The fuel will buy the hospitals and actual civilians more time to use vital facilities, while disrupting the HAMAS scum. Without fuel hamas will be very soft targets.
Do you see the energy embargo ending just because hamas has no more fuel?
I don’t, the cruelty is the point here, its not accidental. its designed to put pressure on the Gaza government through humanitarian disaster, and thats terrible.
That doesn’t sound a lot tbh… If you calculate with 2M people there, it’s just 0.25 litres per person. I don’t think that would be sufficient to filter vast amounts of water.
Also, why haven’t the fuel tanks been destroyed in the strategic military focused air bombings? Obviously they’ve been identified so that they can be reported on
No, they just managed to get a good look at fuel tanks (but no information about the content)… and yet when they bomb “terrorists” in Gaza with heir super x-ray vision, they still manage to kill 40% children.
I think this is simply a function of the asymmetry of the military forces involved. The Israeli military has full control of the air, long range artillery, modern western weapons. They can destroy any target they want easily.
Therefore any installation Hamas has that’s separated from the population, will have already been destroyed in the early phases of the conflict 20 years ago. Anything they build that’s away from population centers would be immediately destroyed.
Perhaps it’s an unintended consequence but the emerging behavior is the only military installations that survive are near civilian populations. It doesn’t help that the population density of the conflict area is incredibly high, with the majority of the population being children. Meaning there’s children everywhere around every target. Because any target that’s not around children would have been destroyed already.
And none of this has to do with the intentions of either side, it’s just the asymmetric capabilities creating de facto emergent behavior. It’s not that Hamas is trying to use human shields, they have no other practical choice. And before the exasperated brigade starts to dogpile me, this is just the reality of war, it’s not an apology.
Yes, but you still need someone to pull the trigger, and then you need 10 other nations to say “it’s the right to self defense” to make it okay.
It’s might + intent, not one without the other.
Because the government of Israel has asymmetric strength in this conflict, it makes them more responsible to move towards peace. Simply because they have most of the capabilities.
Blaming Hamas is completely valid, Hamas is a bad actor.
Blaming the Palestinian people is not valid, Israel the country with its asymmetric capabilities is the responsible one to bring the populations towards peace.
As the last 60 years of demonstrated, using your asymmetric power to just bomb a population into submission, might buy you a respite, but does not end the cycle of violence
Yep, and honestly I keep wondering what Israel was thinking. Did it think it could keep Palestinians from retaliating forever?
What was the plan for Gaza anyway? Leaving that bomb ticking rather than removing the siege (gradually at least) and allowing these people self-determination.
Probably the location. A fuel depot would cause secondary explosions, and a large one. Israel attempts to mitigate damage to Innocents with its air strikes.
Counting it towards to number of people is a little silly. Checking how long a generator can run off of a liter of fuel makes much more sense.
On top of that, not only are they hoarding, but they are also stealing what comes in.
I quickly googled some numbers, so no guarantee for 100% correctness.
Desalination uses about 3.6kWh/m3 of water. A generator can produce around 1.5kWh/litre of fuel. 500,000 litres of fuel would result in 750,000 kWh. 750,000 kWh would result in 208,333 m3 or 208,333,000 litres of water. That theoretically would allow you to create around 200 litres per person if you use the entire amount of fuel on water desalination.
But this calculation only works in a hypothetical scenario and not in a real life scenario. Distribution of the water to all the people will require a lot of energy as well, e.g. for tank trucks. And I think in an active war zone you probably won’t find world class logistics.
Furthermore, you also need fuel and electricity for other critical infrastructure: firetrucks, hospitals, phones, cooking, …
Why would anyone believe their estimates? They’ve been dropping bombs on civilian houses claiming they’re havens for terrorists and didn’t even see an attack that appears to have been prepared for completely out in the open. Their vaunted intelligence services seem to be more the result of a good branding campaign than actual competence.