We need to exert more pressure on apple and eu to not remove PWAs. Every signature counts, please sign and share EU has already started a preliminary investigation on this http://archive.today/2024.02.26-223134/https://www.ft.com/content/d2f7328c-5851-4f16-8f8d-93f0098b6adc
The company said cutting off PWAs was part of an effort to comply with the Digital Markets Act, arguing browsers other than its own Safari software would expose users to security and privacy risks that were not permitted under the law.
They are so full of shit, it’s unbelievable! Are they really claiming that their own browser is THE ONLY legal browser there is?!
It’s blatant anti-competitive behavior and anybody who cares about antitrust should be outraged about this and similar efforts. Getting legal protection for such decisions is nothing but regulatory capture.
Yes.
Don’t they already force every browser on their app store to use the safari engine because “security”?
@ICastFist
Yes, however the EU enacted new regulations to put a stop to that practice, so that Apple will be required to allow other browsers on their platform.Disabling PWAs is how Apple has chosen to retaliate against those new regulations.
Yes, although that recently changed in the EU (only) with the Digital Markets Act.
Move away from apple products & taste the freedom…
The problem is the only alternative (on phones) is handing over all my data to Google, the world’s largest ad company. I’m not sure that’s better…
Desktop is easy. Install Linux. But on phones, there’s 2 bad realistic choices.
You don’t have to install Gapps though.
If you skip GApps & install a custom ROM, chances are banking & government apps won’t work… & you see some places removing their websites forcing users into the app duopoly… which is why web apps matter.
FWIW I’ve got grapheneOS without google play services on a financial profile, and all of my financial apps work including: -Two credit card apps -Bank app -Three investing apps -Two direct transfer apps
One of the credit cards apps (amex) does give a “warning” on each page that it needs play services to function but if I click Ok it actually still just works.
You are also locked to a Pixel device so GG if you want features Pixels do not offer
Worth trying first. In my experience, almost every app works without the Google store. You can also block the internet access for any Google service or app via its settings.
And second step could be trying microG, which also usually works.
The best middle ground is probably GrapheneOS with sandboxed Google Play Services. At that point, most things “just work” and you can at least mitigate Google’s spyware.
Middle ground option has a weirdo author & is limited to Google’s Pixel line only (which eliminates one of the best parts about Android vs. iOS: device variety so you can find something specific to your needs)
I wish I could find something specific to my needs still. Headphone jacks, front facing speakers, mSD cards, and hole-less screens are hard to come by now.
Sony Xperia 10 iii has all those things, and you can run Sailfish OS on it, including VoLTE and Android app support with it.
Crazy how these went from standard features to niche in a generation. Like a sibling comment mentioned, I picked up an Sony Xperia III 5 with microG for Lineage OS installed (tho I swap OLED + <6" screen for your front-facing speaker requirement). Stupidly, not-rooted I still can’t run banking apps since custom ROMs are dangerous (but make me safer). Ironically, the banking apps I would use have trackers in them since it’s their security/privacy that matter, not mine.
Yeah, which is why I use de-googled “vanilla” Bliss ROM 17.2 (Android 14 with latest security patch) on my Xiaomi Redmi Note 10 Pro instead of going the Graphene or Calyx + Pixel route. This way I have the hardware features I wanted (headphone jack, micro SD card slot, 5000mAh battery, 108mp camera, stereo speakers, 120mHz refresh rate) all for cheaper than a Pixel, and the Bliss ROM community is pretty friendly and dedicated in my interactions with it.
is your phone still officially supported by the oem with security patches? Because if not, no custom rom update can have the full range of security patches.
Is bliss compatible with apps and stuff?
What is the issue with the author? I was thinking of installing graphene
He stepped down last year. A bit toxic and troubled. A lot of social media drama around it.
In USA I’ve found it’s pretty easy to live without banking on your phone, although you can’t say the same for some other countries. Granted I have a job where I am working with my own desktop computers most of the day, so I can pay bills and transfer funds on them during those times - and lots of people might not have the same luxury. But I’ve yet to feel a need for any of them while out and about beyond a few occasions of Venmo’ing funds on the go - and at least Venmo still allows you to use their site via browser.
Venmo is a VC-funded social media (weirdly) + money transfer app which takes a cut for doing like nothing just because you want your cash instantly. Many other countries have built-in bank-to-bank transfers with no fees or wait time & other that there’s no money to extract from this, I don’t know why it doesn’t exist in the US.
Where I live, cash is luckily still king (no one uses credit & if you do, you are (rightfully) paying the credit card fee yourself), but more vendors are starting to prefer QR code payments & this year one of the banks leading the trends eliminated their online banking forcing you to use an app or do cash.
Fortunately those apps are not required (and dangerous to use anyway)
Depends on the phone you get. You have to “do your own research” and figure beforehand which phones even allow you to install a custom ROM or different OS, like LineageOS, and evaluate if the steps required to do so (and risk of bricking) are worth the trouble. The worst part is that this shit is difficult on purpose, much like how, by default, Android won’t let you uninstall bloatware, only “disable” it.
Yeah, ironically that’s why the best devices for this are Google’s.
almost every apple user says shit like this while using Gmail, Google docs, and the Google app on their phone and blindly giving Apple their data. let’s be real for a sec and not pretend most Apple users give a flying fuck that Google tracks them. if a user truly cared about privacy, they would eventually come to the conclusion that it doesn’t matter Apple or Google, privacy means not giving your data to ultra mega corps. so owning an iPhone isn’t adequate for privacy either. both googled Android and iOS give your data back to their respective companies. neither are good for your privacy. one day when Apple start changing their tune on privacy policies, Apple fan boys who have put their their whole lives into the apple ecosystem will realize they put all their eggs in one basket.
Have any evidence that both are the same regarding privacy or just your personal feelings?
one day when Apple start changing their tune on privacy policies
I don’t think this is a fair point, unless someone was making the claim that Apple is some benevolent do-good company out of the kindess of their own hearts. No one really makes those claims though, I think most who choose their products for privacy reasons simple thing they are better than the other of the main 2 options, and that like any corporation needs to be watched closely. Just because I chose an Apple device at this time does not mean I advocate that they will always be a better choice for privacy (or any number of characteristics someone may care about when choosing a phone).
almost every apple user says shit like this while using Gmail, Google docs, and the Google app on their phone
Again, just your feelings. Maybe statistically it’s even true that most do, but at least there is a choice on these things. I can and do avoid all of these, the only things I load from google are tracking scripts embedded in websites that make it through several layers of blocking.
privacy means not giving your data to ultra mega corps
Not sure this is true, surely there are large corporations that are at least better than others with regard to privacy. It would be especially foolish to assume the inverse of this, that just because a company is small that they will respect privacy or act better.
I work as a mobile dev. particularly in ad-tech and security. at my comp, marketers spend 10x more on ads to iOS than Androids in the US. meaning, more advertisers come to us and tell us we want us to target more iOS users with the budget.
and most do consider apple the benevolent do-good company and many do make the claim. Apple uses privacy as marketing and the result is many people blindly trust them and their devices or at least assume the competition is flagrantly out to get them. you seem to have your pulse on things but that’s not true for most iPhones users, even those who say they care about privacy.
you also can’t say it’s my feelings and then say it’s probably statistically true at the same time lol it’s is true and most people on ios still use Google front and center on their mobile experience.
while you’re not sure if that’s true, I AM sure it’s true. privacy means your data stays with you. period. the best option is not giving people your data to begin with.
Pixel + GrapheneOS
You mean rather than handing it over to Apple…
For apple owners, flexing on “the poors” is their definition of freedom.
It seems the solution is simple. Don’t use apple products anymore. Windows or linux.
Unlike apple, there’s ways to make windows private and secure and most distros of linux are mostly private and mostly secure
Windows is the one where I need an account to install and that spies on me and throws ads in my face, that one?
Like I said, there’s ways to make it private. And there’s ways to block the ads. There’s ways to use it without a Microsoft account too.
Apple devices have a second network adapter to bypass your VPN and any adblocking software you have to serve you locally relevant ads.
second network adapter
Source? A quick search didn’t turn up anything.
search results are always being tampered with. Which search engine did you use? They may have back-peddled on that due to security concerns…or maybe someone in the executive room has a soul and convinced the others not to do it.
Or maybe they’re already doing it and there aren’t any apple users that know about it, because unlike windows and linux, you have no control and no way of getting control over your apple devices.
I checked too. Can you use your engines to source the claim?
It’s very interesting but I would’ve thought somebody would’ve Wiresharked it or seen the suspicious traffic hitting their router (perhaps).
You don’t need an account. De-bloating scripts take care of most other annoyances. You can fairly easily beat windows into submission
You don’t need an account.
Technically true but worthless to your average consumer. You need to interrupt the installation process, enter a command in a terminal after knowing how to access the terminal and then you can use a local account.
This is worthless to your average person.
The same argument applies when Linux neckbeards waddle out of a basement to declare something is simple; just open terminal and do Y.
The average consumer doesn’t know what NTFS or FAT32 is. I don’t think they’ll understand the privacy implications of Windows reporting.
Not tried in a while but it used to just be a case of leaving it disconnected from the net during setup.
Failing that you can still sign up with a throwaway account and convert it to local in the options after installation iirc. It’s not ideal but it’s still something at least.
There are additional steps now which I mentioned.
your average consumer
People aren’t “consumers” A consumer is a gaping maw that eats everything until there’s nothing left.
People are people. They’re home users, they’re customers, they’re clients, they’re citizens, they’re legal residents. But they are not now or will they ever be “consumers”
Consumer noun
a person who buys goods or uses services
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/consumer
Please link the dictionary your definition comes from.
Last time I checked you could sign in without a Microsoft account by deliberately interrupting your internet connection while setting up Windows.
They even have an offline installer mode with local account only. Just need to download the correct image from the Microsoft server.
Too bad when more and more people buy Apple phones for some reason, well at least where I live (which is the poorer part of central Europe), I have no idea how people can spend this kind of money for a 4 or 5 year phone, when you can buy something more capable for the same money and you will actually know it will get supported with updates for more than 2 years
Can’t wait for this to be more widespread in the future to the point iMessage will be the messaging standard
Same reason poor people buy overpriced designer handbags. Status symbol…
It’s mostly a moot point anyway. The vast majority of people who buy apple products “for some reason” will have no frame of reference or desire to learn what has changed as far as web apps are concerned.
Except I live in central/eastern Europe and most of these people were android users
It definitely is just a brand thing and the fact they maybe bought a shitty budget phone and then went straight for the iPhone 11s/12s and thought “this is so good and android sucks”, because that’s just the fact the price is 4 times higher compared to the old phone
For example for the same price you can get a pixel 7 or an iPhone 12 (or an Samsung A54, S20 FE or a flip 3, which aren’t that great considering they are on sale currently, and I’m comparing this price to the normal prices of the other two), imo the pixel is a lot better value than the iPhone in that case
Also the retailer in question is czc.cz, probably the best retailer in Czechia for tech because others just focus on appliances or aren’t as good (but tbh they do quite suck since they just for some reason have crazy prices or don’t have some things other retailers here and around the world have)
What I always found odd is that many people will try Android. And at the first problem they’ll switch to iPhone.
However the iPhone may demonstrate the same exact problem, among many more, yet they just deal with it anyway.
Probably because on Android there is likely a way to fix it, but it involves a bit of research and picking the best way.
Whereas on iPhone, thats yhe wayvits intended to be so “suck it up”.
Some people just dont want to have to deal with the choices
This topic is about mobile devices, not desktop. Last I checked, Windows and Linux aren’t mobile OS’s.
There are mobile Linux distros.
I am looking forward to installing Ubuntu Touch on my device:
https://ubuntu-touch.io/
https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/There are also a bunch of others, which I haven’t looked into.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_mobile_devicesMaybe now, but Postmarket, Ubuntu phone, and Purism could be relevant in the future
Android is linux.
You know what they mean.
Windows is a disgrace.
Why windows… apple does a better job in general and that’s saying something
“In general” isn’t really a metric you can use to compare operating systems.
Apple isn’t an operating system
How is Windows ever an option? What a troll
Although I agree with you it is not a good choice.
Depending on your threat model it is acceptable. Everyone has different trade offs.
Not only about threat models, some software is simply available for Windows only. If you need it for work, you’re stuck, and that’s that.
Firefox doesn’t even support pwa, this is a weird community to post this
Firefox for Android supports PWAs, only Desktop Firefox dropped the support
And there is FirefoxPWA, an extension to add pretty solid PWA support on desktop.
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I am using https://lichess.org/ and prefer it over the native iOS App for this free chess website. It is in fact a smoothly running PWA and even supports notifications (e.g. to remind one to move in correspondence games).
Same goes with Voyager ( https://vger.app/ ), that was used to create this post.
F* you, Apple!
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Same goes with Voyager ( https://vger.app/ ), that was used to create this post.
Voyager is the best PWA I’ve ever seen.
Someone fill me in:
Can they really force this once EU opens the gates to the third-party app stores?
They will try. This is about OS-level APIs. In order for a browser to to install and run PWAs, it needs certain OS APIs for e.g. home screen installation, storage and notifications. iOS currently has these APIs but Safari severely limits what you can do with it. Now the DMA will force Apple to accept other browsers, which have no such limitations. So, Apple now wants to remove these APIs altogether and kill PWA support outright, before that portion of the DMA takes effect.
There probably will be a lawsuit and Apple will probably lose, but it will take years to resolve that. And in the mean time PWAs remain dead and the only way on the iOS home screen in paying the 30% app store cut.
I see. So it doesn’t look good for now. Thanks for the insight!
Isn’t it the other way around? Afaik the EU commission investigates them, makes a decision, and sets a due date for Apple to comply or pay a potentially hefty fine. It would be Apple who’d have to sue against that, and they’d have to pay the fine until a court confirms or nullifies it.
The fine will have to be pretty hefty to cancel out the risk to Apple of PWAs taking off.
A free and open app platform sitting above the OS is surely a terrible threat to both Google and Apple.
Up to 10% of global revenue, 20% if they keep repeating the same offense, so nothing to sneeze at.
Google and apple both allow pwas right now though, don’t they? I don’t think it’s a threat. It’s just apple trying to say fu to the eu. The eu will slp a billion dollar fine on them. They’ll pay it.
A PWA running in a browser engine that they can’t control can have access to features that they can’t vet and restrict. If PWAs aren’t restricted to 50MB of storage and have near feature-parity with native apps then they’ll eventually lose the ability to enforce their revenue cut on In-App Purchases.
Not sure how it works on android, but on iOS I’m pretty sure this means that mobile game devs will start shipping games as WebGL/WASM with asset streaming and implement their own payment channels for micro-transactions.
Apple can’t risk it and I believe they will fight it tooth and nail to the bitter end.
Yes because what they are doing is just removing websites from the app-store. Other app-stores might add those websites to their store if they want but for the user it is almost always better to just save the website to their homescreen, which gives the exact same UX as previous web-apps but now you don’t need to go to the app-store to download it, the app takes up no storage on your device and the web app can’t access your privacy sensitive device IDs that might be used for cross-app tracking.
This is so frustrating because this is a big hit to browsers like firefox because Apple has such a large userbase, but this same userbase does not give a shit, and this is because they bought an apple in the first place. Frustrating
Thank you Tim Apple
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Firefox on Desktop doesn’t support PWAs
Apparently Firefox on Android does
A PWA installed with Firefox on Android does not appear in the app launcher, but only on the home screen. I don’t know whether this is the fault of Firefox or Android but it’s a major flaw.
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Partly android, but a custom launcher could solve it themselves
Hmmmm. I can see how that’s not ideal and how it would bother some people.
It really just adds a shortcut right? How hard would it be to add a second shortcut in the app launcher?
There is a project on github that adds that function.
you’re a cunt Tim
They are not sabotaging “web apps” (aka websites), you just need to save the website to the homescreen if you want to use a web app, (this is both quicker and takes up less storage on your device so it is better for the end-user).
They are removing these “apps” from the appstore because they are not native apps.
PWAs (Progressive Web Apps) are their own categories of websites and they do indeed have the ability to behave like an actual app. They are much more than just a shortcut, which apple is reducing them to.
On android, my PWA that I developed for fun can go full screen and appear as though a browser isn’t wrapping the page, I can send notifications, I can access the microphone and camera, I can do nearly everything you could expect an app to do, I can support offline mode, I can store data locally, and I can manage my PWAs permissions as well as uninstall my app at an OS level. My entire family uses my PWA, and they see it as an app.
Are there some things native apps can do that PWAs can’t? Absolutely, but that is not the point. PWAs are an open and clearly defined technology to the web. Windows supports them as well.
Apple is refusing to accept that though. They are removing notifications, badges, etc, and reducing them to what you have described, just a shortcut to a Safari window. They are citing security concerns even though other operating systems are able to implement security around them just fine.
The real issue is Apple wants more control over how you use your device and is acting against the consumer.
On android, my PWA that I developed for fun can go full screen and appear as though a browser isn’t wrapping the page
That is literally how I am using kbin.social right now even though it’s just a website
I can send notifications, I can access the microphone and camera, I can do nearly everything you could expect an app to do
All of those are defined in the web spec as well so you wouldn’t need an app for that (if apple implemented all of them, not sure if they have)
I can support offline mode
Your cached web page can do that too (even though most web pages don’t because it’s not a common usecase)
I can store data locally
Cookies have existed for much longer than the iPhone
uninstall my app at an OS level.
A website added to your home page basically acts like an app: it has an icon on your home screen and you can longpress > delete it just like apps
Badges might be the only valid complaint (I don’t know if they are part of the web spec)
[Apple] is acting against the consumer.
Not sure how this is hurting the consumer. This has been announced many years ago and devs haven’t been able to publish new or update old web apps for ages, so this change only applies to those very old apps still on the appstore.
The distinction is web workers and offline mode.
It means your PWA can preload everything it needs to run offline, and you can actually use it offline. That is different from a “cached website” which can only cache the pages you’ve already visited and otherwise does not allow you to update data locally.
Your website can just preload all pages needed for offline mode
