You think Palestinians like to get killed for Internet fame? That makes no sense, you have no idea what a martyr is here, it’s anyone who dies from the occupying forces.
Your argument boils down to “it’s their fault they died because they wanted to” and “they deserve it because of their backward views” none of which are based in reality. I’ve given you a huge variety of sources you can easily verify on your own accord. Yet you consider that a ‘trick’ unlike the official IDF narrative supported by many western media outlets despite a record of falsified information. Even Biden has literally repeated IDF talking points such as the 40 beheaded babies, until it was quickly proven false and walked back.
Hey when you can’t make an argument call me a racist, which is ridiculous.
I supported statehood for Gaza through October 6. I protested the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
They are not at all comparable to this war right here, though. This war began with an a terrorist-invasion of mass shootings and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Israel is in fact a “flawed democracy” by the consensus of political scientists. Still a democracy.
My logic is that a military target and a fair warning is sufficient to negate any charge of intentional bombing of civilians and therefore there is no genocide taking place in Israel.
Seperate is the question of the morality of proceeding with a bombing mission that will knowingly kill civilians, even if you’ve warned them. That’s a question for the ballot box.
My logic as to the question of genocide the same logic as every major western power and NATO. My view is hardly unique and whole hard to swallow, not flawed, if I may say so myself.
My logic is that a military target and a fair warning is sufficient to negate any charge of intentional bombing of civilians and therefore there is no genocide taking place in Israel.
Too bad it’s still a war crime to bomb a hospital in this way, even if the IDF (notice how it’s them who decide what is a target and what is not) say it’s a military target. Also too bad that the “warnings” you’re talking about are minutes, chaotic, and don’t reach all citizens especially since Israel keeps cutting off internet and cellular. They don’t do it adequately, on purpose, and frankly it seems like people have been trying to show you this but you dismiss their facts and evidence as “being tricked”.
It’s not a war crime if there’s a legit military target and a reasonably tailored warning.
People have tried and failed to show me where the IDF has failed to warn. Read the articles people have shared with me, and articles that you read, carefully. Can you identify the date and location of the bombing? As in South Africa’s complaint, the most sensational and horrific stories are attributed to anonymous “reports” or even straight from Hamas.
My followon thought process is simple: when the “reports” do not include material information sufficient to fact check the story, I color in the blanks based on the evidence from the reports I can fact check. And every single time I have fact checked one of these horrific stories, it turns out to be not so horrific because I’ve been able to find attributed sources describing the warnings, sometimes including audio recordings and screenshots, of the warnings that the decedents received, as well as the IDF explanation.
And the next part is simple too: I find the information shared by IDF and Hamas so incongruent that it can only mean that one side is completely lying, and I find that Hamas is the liar because: Hamas never admits it’s fighter are among the dead, and never admits that it’s weapons or infrastructure are in or under the destroyed buildings. It stands to reason that with tens of thousands of rocket attacks and hundreds of miles of tunnels, the air strikes must sometimes be killing Hamas fighters or infrastructure. Therefore, I find Hamas not credible.
I could still find Israel to be not credible, however it has anti corruption practices in place and competent, legitimate law enforcement and military justice apparatuses, under the command of elected representatives, and those institutions are working to prosecute incitement to genocide and war crimes. Whereas, Hamas openly embraces corruption, social crimes, and war crimes; rather than prosecuting criminals that target civilians; that is Hamas’s objective and in Gaza people are rewarded for doing so, not punished.
To ignore the above reasoning, and nevertheless give credit to unattributed reports or Hamas’s reports, seems like a trick, to me.
It’s not a war crime if there’s a legit military target and a reasonably tailored warning.
It is when it’s disproportionate and kills tens of civilians and endangers their lives further by destroying infrastructure… and the “reasonably tailored warning” is not reasonable nor tailored.
That’s where we disagree, it seems.
People have tried and failed to show me where the IDF has failed to warn
Let’s see you refute these by anything other than the equivalent of “Trust me, bro, the IDF said so!”
The Washington Post: “A sniper from the Israel Defense Forces shot the women “without warning” and “in cold blood” Saturday, the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, an ecclesiastical office for the Latin Catholics in the region, said in a statement earlier. The two were sheltering at the Holy Family Parish, where the majority of Christian families in Gaza have taken refuge during the war, it said.”
Euronews: Other video showed the chaotic aftermath in the hospital - among those present was Mohammad Lafy, who survived the mosque strike. “We were sitting in the house, they hit the mosque directly next to the house without warning,” he said.
France24: The campaign on the territory run by Islamist group Hamas has killed at least 230 Palestinians, including 65 children, Gaza health authorities say, and displaced tens of thousands from their homes. Many bereaved relatives say their family members are being bombed without warning, while others say their telephones have rung, but they were not given enough notice. This was the case on Saturday for Jawad Mehdi, the owner of Jala Tower in Gaza City that was until Saturday home to the offices of two foreign media outlets. Mehdi said an Israeli intelligence officer warned him he had one hour to ensure the building was evacuated, and his plea for “10 extra minutes”, broadcast live on television, was denied.
I think what you do is call them “reports” when they collide with your view matching the IDF, but you call it “truth” when it’s an IDF report, an army that literally violates international and humanitarian law all the time with almost perfect impunity. Please…
I could still find Israel to be not credible, however it has anti corruption practices in place and competent, legitimate law enforcement and military justice apparatuses, under the command of elected representatives, and those institutions are working to prosecute incitement to genocide and war crimes.
This cannot be true with 75 years of documented fucking Apartheid and ethnic cleansing. You’re not being honest if you ignore their human rights violations detailed by Amnesty, B’Tselem, the UN, WHO, etc, etc, etc…
You’re doing the same thing again with the half truths and exaggeration.
The first link is about one person being shot. I can’t read the whole thing but would if I could.
The second link talks about two explosions. One in North Gaza killed twenty people four days ago, cannot identify the specific location other than “a roundabout in Gaza City.” The article doesn’t say anything about whether or not there was a warning. The only statement from IDF is that they are investigating. It takes a few days for one hand to know what the other is doing with regard to IDF statements on missions it has conducted. I’ll try and keep an eye out and see if more info comes out. The second explosion killed five people at a mosque at Rafah. A neighbor who survived heard the blast and said he was not warned. I see only three outlets reporting this bombing, and it seems Euronews has copy and pasted the story from Qatari and UAE state media. No statement from the IDF as far as I can find yet. I don’t see how this is sufficient information to draw conclusions.
The third link is literally about a guy being warned, evacuating his entire building, and no civilians being killed, as a result of the warning, back 2021.
If it’s foolish of me to trust Israel’s institutions, it’s still more foolish to trust Gaza’s institutions.
In Palestine, the term shahid for “martyr” is used to mean any person who was killed by an aggressor, whether targeted or untargeted, and regardless of religion. Researchers Neil Whitehead and Nasser Abufarha state that the shahid concept of a victim who falls at the hands of an oppressor became a symbol of the First Intifada and was congruent with the political dynamics of the time when efforts were made to lobby international support for Palestinians’ pursuit for independence.
You have all the links to learn about the history of Israel practicing Settler Colonialism and the creation/maintainance of an Apartheid State. You choose to ignore them
Yes, we Palestinians celebrate resisting colonial oppression, and even though a “martyr” is essentially an Islamic term used to describe people who die fighting the enemy, we Palestinians use it for any and every Palestinian of every religion or of no religion out of respect for their struggle, whether they die while fighting or in their homes alongside their whole family.
Yes I know, and glorify them as heroes for the cause. Does Hamas not force people to stay and be killed? Does Hamas not lie to people about whether they are safe, about whether to evactuate? Do not some Palestinians knowingly ignore warnings so that they can be “martyred?”
I don’t think Hamas forces people to stay in places to be killed lol
Do some Palestinians ignore warnings? Yeah I think some decided they’d rather die together as a family with dignity and not risk the risky roads to the “safe zone” and die instead on the streets. I hope you never have to make such a choice in your life…
But no, I don’t think it’s a widespread phenomena to stay in harm’s way… Except when Israel put harm all around you.
It’s funny because it’s literally Israel that orders people into a safe zone then bombs them there…
I hope I never have to make such a choice either. Hamas really sold out every person in Gaza with those tunnels and terrorist attacks, huh?
Does Hamas lie to people to trick them into staying, yes or no? And if yes (it is yes), why?
Orders them into a safe zone, *then calls them on the phone again before the bombing, you mean. *Bombs a military target under the building, not the “them.” That’s the evidence.
You think Palestinians like to get killed for Internet fame? That makes no sense, you have no idea what a martyr is here, it’s anyone who dies from the occupying forces.
Your argument boils down to “it’s their fault they died because they wanted to” and “they deserve it because of their backward views” none of which are based in reality. I’ve given you a huge variety of sources you can easily verify on your own accord. Yet you consider that a ‘trick’ unlike the official IDF narrative supported by many western media outlets despite a record of falsified information. Even Biden has literally repeated IDF talking points such as the 40 beheaded babies, until it was quickly proven false and walked back.
If I didn’t know any better, I’d say that JustZ guy/gal thinks Gazans are a bunch of camel-piss drinkers…
Classic colonial argument, “We have to bring them democracy! They don’t know any better!”
Worked for the US when invading Iraq and it’s sure as hell working for Israel now lol up to a point.
Hey when you can’t make an argument call me a racist, which is ridiculous.
I supported statehood for Gaza through October 6. I protested the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
They are not at all comparable to this war right here, though. This war began with an a terrorist-invasion of mass shootings and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Your basic logic is:
Not only is the idea of Israel being a democracy questionable at best, but also your logical reasoning is flawed.
I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, I’m saying your logic is bad.
Edit: formatting
You’ve mistated or misunderstood my argument.
Israel is in fact a “flawed democracy” by the consensus of political scientists. Still a democracy.
My logic is that a military target and a fair warning is sufficient to negate any charge of intentional bombing of civilians and therefore there is no genocide taking place in Israel.
Seperate is the question of the morality of proceeding with a bombing mission that will knowingly kill civilians, even if you’ve warned them. That’s a question for the ballot box.
My logic as to the question of genocide the same logic as every major western power and NATO. My view is hardly unique and whole hard to swallow, not flawed, if I may say so myself.
Too bad it’s still a war crime to bomb a hospital in this way, even if the IDF (notice how it’s them who decide what is a target and what is not) say it’s a military target. Also too bad that the “warnings” you’re talking about are minutes, chaotic, and don’t reach all citizens especially since Israel keeps cutting off internet and cellular. They don’t do it adequately, on purpose, and frankly it seems like people have been trying to show you this but you dismiss their facts and evidence as “being tricked”.
It’s not a war crime if there’s a legit military target and a reasonably tailored warning.
People have tried and failed to show me where the IDF has failed to warn. Read the articles people have shared with me, and articles that you read, carefully. Can you identify the date and location of the bombing? As in South Africa’s complaint, the most sensational and horrific stories are attributed to anonymous “reports” or even straight from Hamas.
My followon thought process is simple: when the “reports” do not include material information sufficient to fact check the story, I color in the blanks based on the evidence from the reports I can fact check. And every single time I have fact checked one of these horrific stories, it turns out to be not so horrific because I’ve been able to find attributed sources describing the warnings, sometimes including audio recordings and screenshots, of the warnings that the decedents received, as well as the IDF explanation.
And the next part is simple too: I find the information shared by IDF and Hamas so incongruent that it can only mean that one side is completely lying, and I find that Hamas is the liar because: Hamas never admits it’s fighter are among the dead, and never admits that it’s weapons or infrastructure are in or under the destroyed buildings. It stands to reason that with tens of thousands of rocket attacks and hundreds of miles of tunnels, the air strikes must sometimes be killing Hamas fighters or infrastructure. Therefore, I find Hamas not credible.
I could still find Israel to be not credible, however it has anti corruption practices in place and competent, legitimate law enforcement and military justice apparatuses, under the command of elected representatives, and those institutions are working to prosecute incitement to genocide and war crimes. Whereas, Hamas openly embraces corruption, social crimes, and war crimes; rather than prosecuting criminals that target civilians; that is Hamas’s objective and in Gaza people are rewarded for doing so, not punished.
To ignore the above reasoning, and nevertheless give credit to unattributed reports or Hamas’s reports, seems like a trick, to me.
It is when it’s disproportionate and kills tens of civilians and endangers their lives further by destroying infrastructure… and the “reasonably tailored warning” is not reasonable nor tailored.
That’s where we disagree, it seems.
I remember giving you one such example where the IDF did not warn anyone, but you told me I was “being tricked in real time.”
Let’s see you refute these by anything other than the equivalent of “Trust me, bro, the IDF said so!”
I think what you do is call them “reports” when they collide with your view matching the IDF, but you call it “truth” when it’s an IDF report, an army that literally violates international and humanitarian law all the time with almost perfect impunity. Please…
This cannot be true with 75 years of documented fucking Apartheid and ethnic cleansing. You’re not being honest if you ignore their human rights violations detailed by Amnesty, B’Tselem, the UN, WHO, etc, etc, etc…
You’re doing the same thing again with the half truths and exaggeration.
The first link is about one person being shot. I can’t read the whole thing but would if I could.
The second link talks about two explosions. One in North Gaza killed twenty people four days ago, cannot identify the specific location other than “a roundabout in Gaza City.” The article doesn’t say anything about whether or not there was a warning. The only statement from IDF is that they are investigating. It takes a few days for one hand to know what the other is doing with regard to IDF statements on missions it has conducted. I’ll try and keep an eye out and see if more info comes out. The second explosion killed five people at a mosque at Rafah. A neighbor who survived heard the blast and said he was not warned. I see only three outlets reporting this bombing, and it seems Euronews has copy and pasted the story from Qatari and UAE state media. No statement from the IDF as far as I can find yet. I don’t see how this is sufficient information to draw conclusions.
The third link is literally about a guy being warned, evacuating his entire building, and no civilians being killed, as a result of the warning, back 2021.
If it’s foolish of me to trust Israel’s institutions, it’s still more foolish to trust Gaza’s institutions.
Second sentence of your link:
You have all the links to learn about the history of Israel practicing Settler Colonialism and the creation/maintainance of an Apartheid State. You choose to ignore them
Yes, we Palestinians celebrate resisting colonial oppression, and even though a “martyr” is essentially an Islamic term used to describe people who die fighting the enemy, we Palestinians use it for any and every Palestinian of every religion or of no religion out of respect for their struggle, whether they die while fighting or in their homes alongside their whole family.
Yes I know, and glorify them as heroes for the cause. Does Hamas not force people to stay and be killed? Does Hamas not lie to people about whether they are safe, about whether to evactuate? Do not some Palestinians knowingly ignore warnings so that they can be “martyred?”
I don’t think Hamas forces people to stay in places to be killed lol
Do some Palestinians ignore warnings? Yeah I think some decided they’d rather die together as a family with dignity and not risk the risky roads to the “safe zone” and die instead on the streets. I hope you never have to make such a choice in your life…
But no, I don’t think it’s a widespread phenomena to stay in harm’s way… Except when Israel put harm all around you.
It’s funny because it’s literally Israel that orders people into a safe zone then bombs them there…
What is your source? Curious.
I hope I never have to make such a choice either. Hamas really sold out every person in Gaza with those tunnels and terrorist attacks, huh?
Does Hamas lie to people to trick them into staying, yes or no? And if yes (it is yes), why?
Orders them into a safe zone, *then calls them on the phone again before the bombing, you mean. *Bombs a military target under the building, not the “them.” That’s the evidence.
You made the claim about Hamas, you provide the evidence.