Hey when you can’t make an argument call me a racist, which is ridiculous.
I supported statehood for Gaza through October 6. I protested the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
They are not at all comparable to this war right here, though. This war began with an a terrorist-invasion of mass shootings and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Israel is in fact a “flawed democracy” by the consensus of political scientists. Still a democracy.
My logic is that a military target and a fair warning is sufficient to negate any charge of intentional bombing of civilians and therefore there is no genocide taking place in Israel.
Seperate is the question of the morality of proceeding with a bombing mission that will knowingly kill civilians, even if you’ve warned them. That’s a question for the ballot box.
My logic as to the question of genocide the same logic as every major western power and NATO. My view is hardly unique and whole hard to swallow, not flawed, if I may say so myself.
My logic is that a military target and a fair warning is sufficient to negate any charge of intentional bombing of civilians and therefore there is no genocide taking place in Israel.
Too bad it’s still a war crime to bomb a hospital in this way, even if the IDF (notice how it’s them who decide what is a target and what is not) say it’s a military target. Also too bad that the “warnings” you’re talking about are minutes, chaotic, and don’t reach all citizens especially since Israel keeps cutting off internet and cellular. They don’t do it adequately, on purpose, and frankly it seems like people have been trying to show you this but you dismiss their facts and evidence as “being tricked”.
It’s not a war crime if there’s a legit military target and a reasonably tailored warning.
People have tried and failed to show me where the IDF has failed to warn. Read the articles people have shared with me, and articles that you read, carefully. Can you identify the date and location of the bombing? As in South Africa’s complaint, the most sensational and horrific stories are attributed to anonymous “reports” or even straight from Hamas.
My followon thought process is simple: when the “reports” do not include material information sufficient to fact check the story, I color in the blanks based on the evidence from the reports I can fact check. And every single time I have fact checked one of these horrific stories, it turns out to be not so horrific because I’ve been able to find attributed sources describing the warnings, sometimes including audio recordings and screenshots, of the warnings that the decedents received, as well as the IDF explanation.
And the next part is simple too: I find the information shared by IDF and Hamas so incongruent that it can only mean that one side is completely lying, and I find that Hamas is the liar because: Hamas never admits it’s fighter are among the dead, and never admits that it’s weapons or infrastructure are in or under the destroyed buildings. It stands to reason that with tens of thousands of rocket attacks and hundreds of miles of tunnels, the air strikes must sometimes be killing Hamas fighters or infrastructure. Therefore, I find Hamas not credible.
I could still find Israel to be not credible, however it has anti corruption practices in place and competent, legitimate law enforcement and military justice apparatuses, under the command of elected representatives, and those institutions are working to prosecute incitement to genocide and war crimes. Whereas, Hamas openly embraces corruption, social crimes, and war crimes; rather than prosecuting criminals that target civilians; that is Hamas’s objective and in Gaza people are rewarded for doing so, not punished.
To ignore the above reasoning, and nevertheless give credit to unattributed reports or Hamas’s reports, seems like a trick, to me.
It’s not a war crime if there’s a legit military target and a reasonably tailored warning.
It is when it’s disproportionate and kills tens of civilians and endangers their lives further by destroying infrastructure… and the “reasonably tailored warning” is not reasonable nor tailored.
That’s where we disagree, it seems.
People have tried and failed to show me where the IDF has failed to warn
Let’s see you refute these by anything other than the equivalent of “Trust me, bro, the IDF said so!”
The Washington Post: “A sniper from the Israel Defense Forces shot the women “without warning” and “in cold blood” Saturday, the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, an ecclesiastical office for the Latin Catholics in the region, said in a statement earlier. The two were sheltering at the Holy Family Parish, where the majority of Christian families in Gaza have taken refuge during the war, it said.”
Euronews: Other video showed the chaotic aftermath in the hospital - among those present was Mohammad Lafy, who survived the mosque strike. “We were sitting in the house, they hit the mosque directly next to the house without warning,” he said.
France24: The campaign on the territory run by Islamist group Hamas has killed at least 230 Palestinians, including 65 children, Gaza health authorities say, and displaced tens of thousands from their homes. Many bereaved relatives say their family members are being bombed without warning, while others say their telephones have rung, but they were not given enough notice. This was the case on Saturday for Jawad Mehdi, the owner of Jala Tower in Gaza City that was until Saturday home to the offices of two foreign media outlets. Mehdi said an Israeli intelligence officer warned him he had one hour to ensure the building was evacuated, and his plea for “10 extra minutes”, broadcast live on television, was denied.
I think what you do is call them “reports” when they collide with your view matching the IDF, but you call it “truth” when it’s an IDF report, an army that literally violates international and humanitarian law all the time with almost perfect impunity. Please…
I could still find Israel to be not credible, however it has anti corruption practices in place and competent, legitimate law enforcement and military justice apparatuses, under the command of elected representatives, and those institutions are working to prosecute incitement to genocide and war crimes.
This cannot be true with 75 years of documented fucking Apartheid and ethnic cleansing. You’re not being honest if you ignore their human rights violations detailed by Amnesty, B’Tselem, the UN, WHO, etc, etc, etc…
You’re doing the same thing again with the half truths and exaggeration.
The first link is about one person being shot. I can’t read the whole thing but would if I could.
The second link talks about two explosions. One in North Gaza killed twenty people four days ago, cannot identify the specific location other than “a roundabout in Gaza City.” The article doesn’t say anything about whether or not there was a warning. The only statement from IDF is that they are investigating. It takes a few days for one hand to know what the other is doing with regard to IDF statements on missions it has conducted. I’ll try and keep an eye out and see if more info comes out. The second explosion killed five people at a mosque at Rafah. A neighbor who survived heard the blast and said he was not warned. I see only three outlets reporting this bombing, and it seems Euronews has copy and pasted the story from Qatari and UAE state media. No statement from the IDF as far as I can find yet. I don’t see how this is sufficient information to draw conclusions.
The third link is literally about a guy being warned, evacuating his entire building, and no civilians being killed, as a result of the warning, back 2021.
If it’s foolish of me to trust Israel’s institutions, it’s still more foolish to trust Gaza’s institutions.
I bolded them for you. There’s not much more I can do. 🤷
If it’s foolish of me to trust Israel’s institutions, it’s still more foolish to trust Gaza’s institutions.
Gaza’s institutions according to you: any news outlet that’s not the IDF, including France24, the BBC, the CNN, The Guardian, AP, Al-Jazeera… and certainly all human rights organizations like B’Tselem or Doctors Without Borders, and also the personal testimonies of any Palestinian in Gaza, except if they agree with the IDF
If I didn’t know any better, I’d say that JustZ guy/gal thinks Gazans are a bunch of camel-piss drinkers…
Classic colonial argument, “We have to bring them democracy! They don’t know any better!”
Worked for the US when invading Iraq and it’s sure as hell working for Israel now lol up to a point.
Hey when you can’t make an argument call me a racist, which is ridiculous.
I supported statehood for Gaza through October 6. I protested the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
They are not at all comparable to this war right here, though. This war began with an a terrorist-invasion of mass shootings and indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Your basic logic is:
Not only is the idea of Israel being a democracy questionable at best, but also your logical reasoning is flawed.
I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, I’m saying your logic is bad.
Edit: formatting
You’ve mistated or misunderstood my argument.
Israel is in fact a “flawed democracy” by the consensus of political scientists. Still a democracy.
My logic is that a military target and a fair warning is sufficient to negate any charge of intentional bombing of civilians and therefore there is no genocide taking place in Israel.
Seperate is the question of the morality of proceeding with a bombing mission that will knowingly kill civilians, even if you’ve warned them. That’s a question for the ballot box.
My logic as to the question of genocide the same logic as every major western power and NATO. My view is hardly unique and whole hard to swallow, not flawed, if I may say so myself.
Too bad it’s still a war crime to bomb a hospital in this way, even if the IDF (notice how it’s them who decide what is a target and what is not) say it’s a military target. Also too bad that the “warnings” you’re talking about are minutes, chaotic, and don’t reach all citizens especially since Israel keeps cutting off internet and cellular. They don’t do it adequately, on purpose, and frankly it seems like people have been trying to show you this but you dismiss their facts and evidence as “being tricked”.
It’s not a war crime if there’s a legit military target and a reasonably tailored warning.
People have tried and failed to show me where the IDF has failed to warn. Read the articles people have shared with me, and articles that you read, carefully. Can you identify the date and location of the bombing? As in South Africa’s complaint, the most sensational and horrific stories are attributed to anonymous “reports” or even straight from Hamas.
My followon thought process is simple: when the “reports” do not include material information sufficient to fact check the story, I color in the blanks based on the evidence from the reports I can fact check. And every single time I have fact checked one of these horrific stories, it turns out to be not so horrific because I’ve been able to find attributed sources describing the warnings, sometimes including audio recordings and screenshots, of the warnings that the decedents received, as well as the IDF explanation.
And the next part is simple too: I find the information shared by IDF and Hamas so incongruent that it can only mean that one side is completely lying, and I find that Hamas is the liar because: Hamas never admits it’s fighter are among the dead, and never admits that it’s weapons or infrastructure are in or under the destroyed buildings. It stands to reason that with tens of thousands of rocket attacks and hundreds of miles of tunnels, the air strikes must sometimes be killing Hamas fighters or infrastructure. Therefore, I find Hamas not credible.
I could still find Israel to be not credible, however it has anti corruption practices in place and competent, legitimate law enforcement and military justice apparatuses, under the command of elected representatives, and those institutions are working to prosecute incitement to genocide and war crimes. Whereas, Hamas openly embraces corruption, social crimes, and war crimes; rather than prosecuting criminals that target civilians; that is Hamas’s objective and in Gaza people are rewarded for doing so, not punished.
To ignore the above reasoning, and nevertheless give credit to unattributed reports or Hamas’s reports, seems like a trick, to me.
It is when it’s disproportionate and kills tens of civilians and endangers their lives further by destroying infrastructure… and the “reasonably tailored warning” is not reasonable nor tailored.
That’s where we disagree, it seems.
I remember giving you one such example where the IDF did not warn anyone, but you told me I was “being tricked in real time.”
Let’s see you refute these by anything other than the equivalent of “Trust me, bro, the IDF said so!”
I think what you do is call them “reports” when they collide with your view matching the IDF, but you call it “truth” when it’s an IDF report, an army that literally violates international and humanitarian law all the time with almost perfect impunity. Please…
This cannot be true with 75 years of documented fucking Apartheid and ethnic cleansing. You’re not being honest if you ignore their human rights violations detailed by Amnesty, B’Tselem, the UN, WHO, etc, etc, etc…
You’re doing the same thing again with the half truths and exaggeration.
The first link is about one person being shot. I can’t read the whole thing but would if I could.
The second link talks about two explosions. One in North Gaza killed twenty people four days ago, cannot identify the specific location other than “a roundabout in Gaza City.” The article doesn’t say anything about whether or not there was a warning. The only statement from IDF is that they are investigating. It takes a few days for one hand to know what the other is doing with regard to IDF statements on missions it has conducted. I’ll try and keep an eye out and see if more info comes out. The second explosion killed five people at a mosque at Rafah. A neighbor who survived heard the blast and said he was not warned. I see only three outlets reporting this bombing, and it seems Euronews has copy and pasted the story from Qatari and UAE state media. No statement from the IDF as far as I can find yet. I don’t see how this is sufficient information to draw conclusions.
The third link is literally about a guy being warned, evacuating his entire building, and no civilians being killed, as a result of the warning, back 2021.
If it’s foolish of me to trust Israel’s institutions, it’s still more foolish to trust Gaza’s institutions.
I bolded them for you. There’s not much more I can do. 🤷
Gaza’s institutions according to you: any news outlet that’s not the IDF, including France24, the BBC, the CNN, The Guardian, AP, Al-Jazeera… and certainly all human rights organizations like B’Tselem or Doctors Without Borders, and also the personal testimonies of any Palestinian in Gaza, except if they agree with the IDF