It was taking around 24 hours to drain just ~1—3 liters of water in my kitchen sink. Probably comparable to IV drip speeds. After a huge effort and expense, I finally fixed it without demolishing the kitchen – which would have been my next and final move¹. Sequence of events:
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tried many boiling pots of water to melt any grease
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tried 3 varieties of cheap drain cleaners, the contents of which are not always known due to trade-secret protectionism (when most likely it’s just bleach or lye). Also poured down ordinary household bleach (likely in the typical 15% concentration).
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removed trap and all joints… down to just the wall opening.
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snaked the line with a simple snake. Took all day to get the snake inserted because apparently there are many hard 90° turns. It kept hitting a wall & required lots of force and spinning. Poured boiling water in with the snake inserted and it drained quickly. Pulled the snake out and it was slow again. Repeated the process several times and one late night just left the snake inserted figuring i would deal with it in the morning. Pulled the snake out and it was permanently curled up like a pig’s tail. I guess it hit such a hard turn that it coiled up inside rather than progressing down the line.
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cut off the meter or so of curled up snake. Used a blow torch to soften the new end and pulled on it with pliers so the end was a little stretched as they come from the factory. Bent some copper pipe, drilled a hole in it, threaded it, added a screw, so I could use the pipe to force the snake to spin close to the drain entry point. Made no difference. Bizarre twist: a small amount of hair was on the end of the snake, yet this is a kitchen drain. This suggests the snake went deep enough to reach intersecting drain pipes. But if that’s true, then why was it coiled up? That remains an unsolved mystery. After the last use a new kink occurred higher up so the snake is ruined.
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every week poured a different brand of enzyme based drain cleaner following warm water to warm up the pipes & let it sit for 6+ hours. Used 3 different enzyme brands on weekly rotation.
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tried a two component drain cleaner: ① sodium hydroxide + ② sodium hyphchorite with sodium hydroxide (yeah, sounds redudant but bleach is really in both components)
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custom built a leaf blower connection using a series of PVC pipes, some softened with a heat gun to tightly fit to the blower. Not kidding. Gave it full force and got no results. Thought at the time that this was the nuclear option.
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bought an “auger”, which is a snake inside a box with a crank & essentially the same features I added to the simple snake. It also hit a wall & could not make one of the turns. It came out clean, but with a kink from pushing on it (which is what you do when nothing else works).
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asked IRC chem channel for advice. My questions were chem related but they really do not want to hear too much home improvement chatter. Can’t say I blame them but the best chem knowledge would come from chemists not home DiYers. Someone said get sulfuric acid “if you can”.
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(illegal) found a source for sulfuric acid, which is illegal for consumers in my region. Poured only ~30ml down the drain (much less than directed but this stuff is costly), heard it sizzling. Instructions say wait 15 min then pour cold water. I waited 20 min before topping off with cold water. No progress. Took all night to drain as far as i could see. Poured ~300ml more down the drain. Sizzling. Smells like vomit. Bits of white junk show up… probably part of a “#fatberg”. But still no progress. When the visible drain is clear, added ~170ml more (giving a cumulative total of ½ liter at this point, which is actually the directed amount to pour in one shot). Still no progress.
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bought a bicycle pump style plunger. This thing can mate directly with the pipework. Used it just to push water down. It worked to just quickly push the water further down, but then topping up with water showed it’s still clogged. So then I did the pumping action with the plunger. I wanted to resist this because I don’t exactly want sulfuric acid getting sucked into the new plunger and slashing around. Finally the clog is clear. Cleaned the plunger with several full pumps of clean water.
Now it drains 5 liters of water in 29 seconds. Wow what difference. I can even see the tornado in the sink, which I don’t recall if I ever saw that in this sink.
Costs of chemicals and tools were, shit, roughly like:
25- snake (destroyed)
25- auger (cheap compared to most augers, kinked)
20- brand A enzymes
18- brand B enzymes
21- brand C enzymes
5- standard drain cleaner brand X
8- drain cleaner brand Y specialized in hair (because common drain cleaners are useless on hair)
10- drain cleaner brand Z
20- 1 liter sulfuric acid
15- PVC parts for leaf blower
8- simple plunger (useless because it just pushes trap water out the overflow)
10- bicycle pump style plunger (apparently the most critical tool)
So probably roughly ~150 in costs.
IMO the sulfuric acid was essential for loosening whatever I had in there (probably a fatberg), but the final success came from the bicycle pump style plunger directly on the line.
(edit)
Adding footnote 1: well, I did have one really bizarre idea that I was going to try next before demolishing the kitchen. An unused toilet happens to have accumulated a colony of “sewer drain moth fly larvae”. I thought: why not scoop up those worm-like things and drop them in the standing water of the clogged drain? They’re generally considered pests, but if they were to chow down on the clog, they would be helping me out. Luckily it did not come to this. They may have also have risked adding to the clog. In fact, for all I know, they could have been contributing to the clog. I don’t know for certain if it was a fatberg or what down there.
(Apologies to anyone who happened to be chowing down on a burger from #Fatburger while reading this post.)
Options that I nixed:
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someone suggested bailing wire. It’s stiffer than a coat hanger so I really don’t think it can handle all the sharp twists and turns of my drain pipe.
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pressure washer hose designed for drain cleaning-- I think it’s also too stiff for the sharp turns of my drain pipes. The plastic hose would get scraped on every turn and thin out the walls of the hose. The tip has an overhang that could get stuck when pulling it out. I think these are just for big outdoor drains/downspouts.
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huge doses of enzymes, not just the weekly maintenance amounts-- enzymes are /costly/ & my expectation of them working to clear a big amount of junk at once is quite low. I think they are good for just slightly removing thin layers of buildup.
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gasoline, matches-- became increasingly tempting
Unanticipated damage:
The acid fizzed up and overflowed a bit. It’s like pouring a beer and not well anticipating size of the head. The water top may have been closer that I thought. Some dripped onto galvanized steel radiator pipes that run below the drain and a PEX pipe. The PEX seemed to take it okay but sulfuric acid is said to be extremely corrosive to metal. The pipes were very shiny right where the drops landed and had black rings around those splatter points. Then the shiny part rusted within hours. I think those areas of the pipe are now de-galvanized. I rubbed the affected area with steel wool then painted using a Rustoleum type of paint which is meant to go straight onto rust.
How many times did you think “I should hire someone” but then you remembered how expensive it would be?
Exactly… that was constantly on my mind. Last time I hired a plumber to fix a leak while I was away, the plumber was incompetent. Did not find the leak (which was in /exposed/ pipework), charged 200 cash and ran with the money. The plumber actually charged 4 times as much as I paid a doctor to make a house call.
Some plumbers can legally buy sulfuric acid for this purpose. So in fact by law I was essentially being forced to hire a plumber, in effect.
My way of thinking is that I’m going to learn something & my tooling costs will be less than a plumber. I’ll “own” the problem for the next time. This one about drove me to the edge, considering I was about to experiment with borderline parasites.
A pro would have had an expensive snake cam… so there’s that. I would not want to put my own snake cam down the pipe because it’s not made for such filthy environments… would likely ruin the cam.
I blame whatever plumber installed the drain. They used many hard-right 90° fittings that hinder snakes. Then they installed no clean-out. And no vent. I also suspect the pipes under the floor may be goffred (accordian-like). So the lesson here is that snakes are not always the answer if the pipes are lousy.
Where do you live that sulfuric acid is illegal?! It’s a basic chemical, I use it all the time. Tried some last night in an ultrasonic cleaner last night. (Didn’t work for that project. 🤷🏻♂️) You can go to the auto store and get a 5-gallon bucket.
And talk about environmentally neutral, doesn’t get much better. I forget the chemistry term, but it “dilutes” in water instantly. That is to say, it ain’t sulfuric acid anymore. When I’m working with it, I just leave the tap running in case of a spill. Or, just throw baking soda on it, receive water and carbon dioxide.
Most of mine comes from draining old car batteries. If I have to give the battery back for proper recycling and get my $10 back, I’m keeping the acid. What if you do that? Illegal to buy, own or both?
Where do you live that sulfuric acid is illegal?!
I think it’s like this in all of Europe. I know in the US you can get 32 oz. of it at Menards for $8. But that’s not an option here. I have no idea what people do if they need to build a battery. The stuff I got would be different than what’s in batteries. Probably the battery acid is more pure. What they sell to pro plumbers is a bottle labelled as /drain cleaner/ with sulfuric acid as a main active ingredient. It likely has a cocktail of additives to optimize it for drain pipe usage or perhaps make it inconvenient for other usages.
What if you do that? Illegal to buy, own or both?
I doubt it’s a possession offense. They are controlling the sales. If you go to a pro plumbing shop and try to buy it, they will require proof that you’re buying on behalf of a company that was constituted for the purpose of plumbing.
I subscribe to a Youtube channel of a guy who does nothing but clean drains with a pressure washer setup and have looked at doing similar work on my own house and it’s actually pretty reasonable (like $120). I’m sure OP spent more in time and money than that and could have possibly damage their plumbing with the chemical cocktails.
From watching enough videos, OP’s clog may have been from wipes, sanitary products, roots, grease/fat, or a broken pipe. Almost none of these can be fixed with chemicals.
It’s a kitchen drain but not like in the US. Garbage disposals are banned here. So there would be no way for wipes, qtips, or anything bigger than a pea to enter the drain. It’s a terraced house in a dense city, so no trees, which likely rules out roots.
The city water is /very/ hard, and past residents likely put plenty of oil down the drain. Every time the drain regurgitates something, it’s a stinky white substance that appears to have coffee grounds embedded in it. I know not to put oil or coffee down the drain but past residents are another story. So I think a mass of fat, coffee, and minerals from the hard water could be culprits.
WRT using a pressure washer, I think that would be an option if there were a cleanout with a straight shot. That youtuber would probably be paralyzed when coming into a ridiculous series of tight 90s and no cleanout or vent, and possibly goffred pipes. Or does he have some kind of special extra flexible high pressure hose?
Garbage disposals are banned here.
LOL, just asked you about sulphuric acid and now this? What’s the reasoning behind that ban? Keeps organic waste out of the system?
What’s the reasoning behind that ban?
The drain infrastructure in most US cities is relatively modern. The city drain pipes are big & thus able to handle a big amount of food waste coming from residents. I think I heard some minority of US cities also ban garbage disposals because for whatever reason their pipework can’t handle the load.
Old cities have small pipes that could not sustain the onslaught of thick food waste, as I understand it. In my city, rats outnumber humans by 2 to 1 and I think they thrive in the sewer. So I’m not sure if it’s also an effort to not feed rats. In any case, the city’s preferred way of dealing with waste food is to put it in the trash.
Recently they required food waste to be separated into a different color bag than the others. So they collect the food waste together and compost it. In the end, this is probably the most forward-thinking approach despite the sewer system being quite behind.
Thanks! That makes sense. I’m American, so our sewers aren’t nearly as old as other parts of the world. Plus, people like me aren’t even on a sewer system. If I want to jam out my septic system, and pay for it to be cleaned more frequently, that’s on me.
I had a stubborn clog like this. Draino did nothing. Drain took an entire 25ft snake and found nothing. I went and bought a drain bladder. You hook it up to a water supply and it expands to seal itself in be pipe and then uses pressure to blast the clog out. I figured I had a 50/50 shot at either clearing the clog or exploding a pipe in my wall.
I have no idea where the clog was or where it ended up, but I haven’t had a problem in the 2 years since
I don’t think those bladders are sold in my area, but it sounds like something that would have worked in my situation. So to be clear, once it fills with water, does not also discharge water on the opposite side that it is fed water? Is the pressure then limited to the household water supply pressure?
Exactly right. There’s a small hole in the free end that creates enough restriction for the bladder to inflate but lets the water come out once it’s sealed in the pipe
You need to find the drain outside. Also, your main line might be damaged.
When it clogs up again in 6 months you should call a professional to blast it from outside and do a TV inspection
Can you explain why you say this?
The same branch is shared by a bathroom (toilet, shower, sink) and those bathroom drains have never had a clog. Although they always periodically stunk despite full traps so I suspect a leak was always there. But since it’s only occasional I wonder if it’s a leak at the top of a pipe, not spillage. Well, otoh there might be spillage going on in the bathroom because there are drain flies, which might be feeding on spillage from somewhere. It just seems bizarre that the odor only manifests occasionally.
The big branches meet at a main Y connector. That Y connector is new. The basement had a serious leak under the concrete a couple years ago. The basement floor was dug up and new pipe was installed. I doubt there would be any issues with this new pipework. I think the only segment that’s quite dicey is from the kitchen sink to wherever it joins the bathroom.
(edit) are you perhaps thinking that the clog has moved along and will clog again downstream? I doubt that, because the diameter of the kitchen drain is 40mm and it eventually joins a branch that’s like 90mm in diameter. If this thing were to snowball for some reason, it could probably be reached from the cleanout at the main Y fitting, no?
Whatever the issue is, I think you should clean it from outside and towards inside, instead of going outwards from inside.
This usually requires a sewer truck. Or you can put a hose up the Y clean out. That can also be done with a power washer snake attachment, but at that point it’s easier to call the sewer truck, because these consumer gadgets aren’t really that great. I’ve tried everything and in the end I had to call the truck anyway. You’re already hundreds of dollars into gadgets and chemicals. Stop it. Cut your losses and call a professional next time.
I can’t quite work out if you’re making a prediction of a clog returning, or if you’ve not realized that there is no longer a clog.
For weeks I have been fighting clog. But the clog is finally gone and the drain is now faster than I have ever seen. The drain actually keeps pace with the faucet on full blast. In the past, even in the best of times, I think the fastest it drained was 1 liter in 20 seconds. Now 1 liter drains in 6 seconds.
You’re already hundreds of dollars into gadgets and chemicals. Stop it. Cut your losses and call a professional next time.
Pros give different results in different areas. I called a plumber for a leak once. I was out of town, but a simple leak was dripping and forming a puddle on the floor. The leak was in exposed PEX pipe visibly strapped to the wall (yes that room is quite ugly). The plumber spent little time, failed to find the leak, blamed something that was fine, and charged €200. We called him back and he made the outrageous claim that the puddle was due to “condensation”. Left and gave no refund. I would love to have a reliable & trustworthy plumber. But since I don’t have that I have to become the plumber.
My costs in the drain fight were ~¾ of €200 (less than the incompetent plumber’s charge for simply showing up). Every time I redo the pipes I’m appalled by the work of past plumbers. So I think I’m just not in a good place to hire plumbers. There is no quality control of any kind in my area. No Better Business Bureau of sorts to record complaints. So the infrastructure is not setup for bad plumbers to fail.
Ok, so as you noted at the end, sulfuric acid was a bad idea for the pipes.
The problem you will quickly run into is that you poored many chemicals in your pipe, so new chemicals might react with them. It is especially dangerous when you mix bleach and acid, as that can make deadly combat gas (I don’t remember exactly what produces what, but as a rule, avoid cooking various chemicals together, it’s very dangerous).
Bleach is not a dissolvant, it’s a disinfectant. It’s of no use to free a pipe.
To my limited knowledge, the best chemicals are acid chlorhydric or soda. Never ever use both. acid chlorhydric might be bad for the pipes though, so soda is usually better. Acid chlorhydric is best to remove limestone. Soda is best to remove biomater. Both of these are very cheap.
But you already poured chemicals in the pipe, so you need to clean that first. Have water flow in this for some time before you pour anything more into that.
PS: I forgot about the warning : working with chemicals is dangerous. Get gloves, and if possibles, glasses. A chemistry jacket would also protect your clothes, and sometimes your skin.
Ok, so as you noted at the end, sulfuric acid was a bad idea for the pipes.
Not exactly. The sulfuric acid likely solved my problem (in combination with a plunger). It overflowed a little & attacked radiator pipes due to me underestimating the foam expansion rate (user error - perhaps poured too fast), but AFAIK it did not harm the drain pipes. Sulfuric acid would not be a good early stage choice, but when most chemicals and techniques have been exhausted it’s one of the most effective options.
The problem you will quickly run into is that you poored many chemicals in your pipe, so new chemicals might react with them.
That’s good general advice. But note that my episode spans many weeks. I know not to mix them (acid & bleach in particular). Every chemical went in on a different day with a water flush in between (which often took ½ day or a full day).
Bleach is not a dissolvant, it’s a disinfectant. It’s of no use to free a pipe.
I’m a bit confused on this because many of the consumer grade drain cleaners seem to rely on bleach as the active ingredient. Some of them are simply “thick bleach” (in a gel form).
To my limited knowledge, the best chemicals are acid chlorhydric or soda. Never ever use both. acid chlorhydric might be bad for the pipes though, so soda is usually better. Acid chlorhydric is best to remove limestone. Soda is best to remove biomater. Both of these are very cheap.
Do you mean hydrochloric acid & caustic soda (aka sodium hydroxide/NaOH)?
The hair-specific drain cleaner I have is based on sodium hydroxide.
The 2-component one was based on sodium hydroxide & sodium hypochlorite (aka bleach). I don’t recall what the other cleaners were.
Another point of confusion: chemists told me consumer drain cleaners are useless against hair. Then I noticed hair-specific drain cleaners on the shelf, which somewhat supports the idea that universal/generic drain cleaners lack effect on hair. But then the hair-specific drain cleaner I bought only mentions sodium hydroxide as an active ingredient, and this is the same common ingredient in many non-specific drain cleaners.
Ok, so the names can be very confusing because they’re very different in my language.
Acid chlorhydric is indeed hydrochloric acid. HCl.
What I called soda is indeed caustic soda, or sodium hydroxide, NaOH.
Bleach for me is also sodium oxychlorid, NaClO.
The first 2 are meant to dissolve things. The third is disinfectant. Never use bleach with an acid, because it makes Cl2 which is a deadly gas (used in ww1). But apparently you know how to take safety precautions, which is good.
I don’t know for where you leave, but the only drain cleaners I ever used where based on caustic soda. You don’t always need it to be gel form. The gel form is meant to stay longer while falling along the pipe and is safer for the user because it doesn’t splash. To my limited knowledge, consumer drain cleaner will usually make the soda less dangerous or smell better, but also usually less concentrated.
Welcome to home ownership.
It’s lovely…
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Sulphuric acid can damage some plastics but mainly the bendy accordion style or metal pipes.
If it is used in drain cleaners some additives must be used to slow it’s reactivity. Lye, or NaOH, has one disadvantage - it makes scares and then you feel burning. H2SO4 burns and then makes scares.
That’s worrying just because I have a suspicion that there are accordion pipes. So I just did a test. Plugged the drain & filled the sink to the top with water. Pulled the plug and ran to the basement. There is a strong gushing from the main pipe. So I’d say at least most of the water is going to the right place. So certainly it’s not a case where the sewage found a complete alternate path. The clog is in fact gone. Though there’s always a chance of leaks, which in this case would be into or below a concrete slab.
If I’m in this forum asking why my whole kitchen floor smells like sewage in a few weeks from now, plz remind me about this.
Do you know concentration of the acid? I think it is only case in higher concentrations like 80% or above.
Maybe if I track down the MSDS it might say, but I can say for sure. The bottle is labelled as a pro drain cleaner for that purpose. So it’s not likely laboratory or military grade or anything intense.
Ok seems like 90% or above with these additives it should be fine.
Drain cleaners should be used very sparingly, especially if you have any metal pipes. What happens is they stay in the drain aRM and damage it, causing an eventual leak in the wall, or they drip down the vent stack at the intersection of it and the drain arm. That’s worse, because when the water does start flowing, it doesn’t wash it away, so it stays in the vent stack to corrode it. This is a particularly common mode of failure in houses built in the 50s, and it’s costly to fix because you have to rip out relatively large sections of wall.
Just something to think about.
Meanwhile, a plumber could have inserted a high quality camera to see exactly what was in there, then dealt with it using the bare minimum of force to not wear your pipes excessively. The cost of fixing the clog isn’t necessarily the cost of the fix. It includes the wear you put on your pipes that eventually causes a failure. Maybe your pipes are all great condition pvc and you have nothing to worry about.
Thanks for the quality read. My blood pressure is probably going to spike when I have my next plumbing issue.
Don’t you have professional drainers in your area who would do the job in less than 30 minutes?
Plumbers are a nightmare in my area. I give some details in other replies. I am also a nightmare for them because my screwed up town gives them nowhere to park. So they often don’t even want to come. Their fee just for showing up is about what I spent on tools and chemicals.
Ok, I see.
If you really do have multiple sharp bends in the drain line I have to wonder who the hell did the install. Good luck with that crap in the future. Oh and in the future, spilled hydrochloric acid should be cleaned up immediately with water and/or some baking soda or similar to summer and neutralize it respectively.
Random question OP, but have you ever seen the 1997 movie Mousehunt?
no… hadn’t heard of it.
The sodium hydroxide left in there would probably turn any remaining fats into water soluable soap (and biodiesel), but it’ll also destroy any copper pipe it spends a lot of time in contact with as I recall.
That’s interesting, but would you ever expect to find drain pipes in copper? My house came with a box of old scrap parts, one of which was a thick metal trap for a sink. It wasn’t copper though. All drain pipes I’ve seen in the house are PVC (mostly gray, some white and some orange).
Depends on the house, they’re sometimes built like the rings of a tree with different materials in different parts of it. I’ve got a copper drain line for some reason.
did you snake it from the cleanout? the pipe outside that’s designed to “clean out” clogs from the clog side?
I so much wish I had a cleanout. If I reached the step of demolishing the kitchen, I certainly would have installed a cleanout at that point, as well as a vent, and I would refuse to use tight 90° fittings (unless they have a long “swept” shape).
(edit) I have a main line cleanout, but there would be several splits & turns to make if i tried to use it to reach the kitchen. Might be possible if there exists a quite fancy snake that would have a cam on the end and a controllable bending mechanism. Not sure if such a tool even exists.
I have ADHD so I’m not reading everything but ChatGPT tells me that you didn’t mention what type of piping your drainage system is. I am wholly willing to bet that the sulfuric acid didn’t fix your problem but rather put a hole in the pipe itself above the blockage. I guarantee that you are now draining the contents of that drain directly into either a wall or some unseen cavity and are not actually draining out of your home/apartment/wherever.
you didn’t mention what type of piping
I didn’t build it. I can see that the entry fitting & 2nd fitting is gray PVC, but that’s all I can see without a snake cam for wet environments. The behavior with the snake clearing the line temporarily, then the line being “clogged” after pulling the snake out somewhat suggests that maybe I have a shitty goffred (accordian) pipe. Maybe it’s getting kinked or folded somewhere.
I am wholly willing to bet that the sulfuric acid didn’t fix your problem but rather put a hole in the pipe itself above the blockage. I guarantee that you are now draining the contents of that drain directly into either a wall or some unseen cavity and are not actually draining out of your home/apartment/wherever.
That was my worry indeed. But I figured my next step is to replace the pipe anyway, so it was time to test the nuclear¹ option. The main sewer line in the basement is accessible just before going out to the street. I could clearly hear the water running through the main exit pipe when the kitchen sink is draining. But I can’t quite judge if the sound is gushing to the extent that it should be. So jury is out on this.
There is a cleanout at this central point where all big pipes merge. I could get more certainty if there was a way to divert all water from the main cleanout to a bucket. Then I could put 5 liters down the drain and see if 5 liters comes out. But I’m not sure now to rig up that diversion (or if it’s worthwhile).
(edit) footnote 1. I originally thought attaching the leaf blower to the drain pipes was the nuclear option… that it might blow pipes off their joints. It’s kinda like #BruceWillis in #pulpFiction in the pawn shop, where he picks up a weapon then realizes the nuke is yet to come… progressively upgrades weaponry as more options come to light.
Jesus christ. So, how are your pipes now? And…all these psycho pipes are in walls? Or floors? God. We’re in a single story with a crawlspace and all our pipes are PVC, and so, super obvious and accessible in the crawlspace.
The drain is working well now after the sulfuric acid cleanse. But I suspect it’s double trapping or something because after draining water some gurgling goes on for a while. I suspect the pipes are embedded in a concrete slab on the ground floor, so rework would require lots of demolition.
This is wild. Curious how many feet in was the clog (based on how far in you pushed the snake)?
The episode spans several months, so my memory is fuzzy. But I recall on one occasion I got full penetration with the snake. I went to the main cleanout in the basement and saw that the snake made there. But that was before the occasion where i had /only apparently/ got full penetration, then pulled out the snake and it was permanently curled up. I think the snake was ~10—15 meters long originally. I didn’t log every attempt. Many times i only got partial penetration with the snake & made a mental note of how far but didn’t log it. There is one point that is very hard to get past… I think like 3 meters or so in.
Well I hope your family or housemates appreciate how much work you put into this. This is some crazy shit.
