after St. Louis police unions instructed officers to publicly display The Punisher’s insignia (the mark of a lawless, fascist murderer) the comic book community was quick to point out the stupidity, and the frankly horrifying message sent by supposed peace officers endorsing a maniac. So it’s a good thing The Punisher personally confirms he hates cops who see him as a friend… making every cop who “wears his mark” or calls themselves a “fan” look like shameful fool in the process.
– Andrew Dyce, The Punisher Confirms: He HATES Cops Who Support Him
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If fascists could read they’d be very upset
They like him because they want to LARP as a reckless, vengeance seeking gunslinger who eliminates anyone who they feel has wronged them or who is “wrong”. As in so many other circumstances, they’ve missed the point and the intended message.
The ol’ Walter White/Rick Sanchez/Joker/Patrick Batemen “hes literally me fr fr” but for adult men doing an actual job. It’d be cringey if they weren’t in a position of authority.
Still pretty cringey tbh. The fact that there’s so many people (mostly white men) who run around fantasizing about gunning down people they disagree with is sad, and terrifying. It’s a whole subculture of violence obsessed gun nuts with a victim complex and low self esteem.
There was a whole bunch of lenmings salivating when someone shot a youtube prankster for getting in his face, pathetic as fuck
Rick & Morty this season really turned a corner with how they interpret Rick and how truly lonely/shitty his life can be because of his very serious personality flaws. Big fan of what they’re doing. Lots of self reflection on the show, more nuanced debates about rick and morty’s (toxic) relationship somehow despite how often it’s brought up, strong mirrors back on the audience. It’s strong stuff
I didn’t even know the new season came out already :P
I’m guessing you are kind of joking, but to be clear this came out years ago haha
Most cops in North America barely even passed high school, you think they’d pick up on literary concepts like an anti-hero or even a morally gray character? They see protagonist, they probably automatically assume they’re unambiguously the good guy for every story.
Idk I actually feel like they’ve seen exactly what the point is. You just have the occasional writer trying to morally absolve Frank for a few pages and then go right back to murdering with his super cool big guns
Hell let’s leave the comics for a second. Watch the opening of season 2 of the punisher on Netflix and tell me if that looks like any attempt at nuance/reflection on season 1 lol
The punisher is a murdering lawless maniac but I don’t think he’s a fascist, is he?
Punisher 2099 was fascist (Wouldn’t kill cops, and became part of Doom 2099’s regime when he took over America.) but Frank Castle Punisher (A.k.a. the one we know.)? Pretty much equal opportunity murderer of criminals and baddies.
I don’t think that makes him fascist, just a broken person with twisted morals attempting to do good (in his mind). IIRC, he makes no attempt to push his morals beyond himself.
In fact, doesn’t he specifically tell people not to be like him?? That’s very much NOT fascie behavior.
Idk, a lot of fascist ideology revolves around a single person being able to save society via strength and commitment. Instead of society being able to enact meaningful changes through the proper means, we need someone who can cut through the bureaucracy and just take out the “bad guys”.
Unfortunately a lot of western writing reinforces the belief that individual greatness can overcome even the most difficult situations. This isn’t saying that all western authors are fascist, rather that most of the stories we tell require a first person perspective for us to resonate with it.
This is why the most popular propaganda films in Nazi Germany weren’t films like triumph of the will, but instead were films like The Lives of a Bengal Lancer and Gabriel Over the Whitehouse.
I mean, isn’t that literally why he tells people to not be like him?
I think he was created to point at that exact issue.
I think it highlights the difficulty of attempting to profit from attempting to satire fascism. The people who understand nuance aren’t typically the crowd that needs to be reminded that fascism is bad, and the people who do need that reminder are so often selectively deaf to nuance that conflict with their ideology.
Punisher may have started as satire on fascism, but over the years there are going to be authors who are going to asses the importance of that aspect of the character differently. Some are going to take the original message to heart and make it the centerpiece of the story, others are just going to use it as a set piece to get to the vengeance and violence.
Over time the character turns from the cautionary tale of an antihero, to a piece of intellectual property used to sell stickers to chuds. Unfortunately the author has very little control of how people interpret their work.
See the entire collection of Warhammer lore.
lindsay ellis has a great video about satirizing fascism
I assume they mean “murderer of fascists?”
Has he ever been portrayed in comics killing fascists?
I haven’t actually read any Punisher, but it sounded more plausible than The Punisher being fascist
I haven’t read a lot, but it would be interesting to see how corporate comics would write an ‘antifa’ Punisher. They would absolutely slander the movement, like with the Joker (Johann Most + L’Homme qui rit), the Flag Smasher, or Anarky. But it would still be a curious read.
Red Skull, Dr. Doom, and Hatemonger II, though the first two weren’t mainline continuity.
Holy shit, Hatemonger II’s weapon is a “Hate Ray” and he uses it on the Punisher to make him kill an antifascist Journalist! Punisher takes the assignment not because he hates fascists, but because they’re infringing on Captain America’s brand 🤣
A fascist is someone who supports a single strong leader with total control of the nation. ‘Dictator’ was an actual position in the Roman Republic; the people could vote to give one man absolute power for a period of time. Makes sense if you’re dealing with a natural disaster or invasion and don’t have time to go through the usual channels. Fascism became popular in the chaos of the post WW1 era. Things were changing rapidly, and conservatives wanted to rein in the ‘undesirables.’ Ironically, the Communist Russian Revolution was a huge spur to the creation of numerous fascist parties across Europe.
Frank Castle, the Punisher, is not a fascist. He isn’t interested in taking power for himself, and doesn’t want a dictator. He often speaks of having the greatest respect for Captain America, the guy who always chooses the side of liberty and fair play. Frank knows that he’s a criminal and a murderer. He just doesn’t care. IMHO if he and the Joker were both locked up and unable to kill each other, the two would get along fine.
Even captain america does plenty of fascist things mate, Punisher is definitely very close to fascism by the mere fact that he represents someone who thinks they are above the law and they know better and that they can deliver their version of justice.
Of course that alone doesn’t make him fascist, but the things superheroes are portrayed doing nowadays are very much things fascists like.
Id recommend checking out this excellent video from Folding Ideas for example
I don’t really see how he could be construed as one, other than the kneejerk “fascism is when bad things”.
The whole point is that he’s not like cops.
How fascist he is depends on who is writing him. His symbol is literally a stylized Nazi totenkopf, and while he has never voiced support for totalitarian leaders, his solution to crime - escalating the violence - is consistent with fascist ideology.
People used skulls as a symbol of death long before the Nazis.
Associating his symbol with that is a huge stretch.
Stretch? Gerry Conway, the original author, planned the character to use the totenkopf, and the artist re-worked the symbol.
Oh wow, I didn’t know that. I simply meant that they look nothing alike other than being skulls.
I don’t see the relation? Not all skull motifs are a totenkopf.
Seems like they specifically changed it in Pre production
Last time I went through US customs the agent checking me had his backpack behind him with a punisher patch (plus a thin blue line one, because of course he did). Gotta use true fashy believers to check all them damn immigrants and all that…
Thin blue line is a gang symbol. We need to normalize asking people with thin blue line bullshit why they’re flying gang symbols.
I’ve occasionally seen the black and white American flag with one red line instead of the blue one. Apparently it’s meant to show support for paramedics and firefighters. I wish that one was more popular.
Yeah, you really only see those often if you know firefighters/EMTs it seems.
I wish these groups would be more original and stop bastardizing the US flag. It also gives a creepy paramilitary vibe to what should be social support organizations.
The way they cropped it, they leave out the best part. Here’s the full interaction. 4 pages from Punisher #13:
Yeah, the whole bit about how they should be looking up to Captain America as a role model is the most important part.
Who is on the roof
Not immediately revealed in that issue, but in the next one it’s clear Black Widow has been following him.
Thank you. I was irritated that I couldn’t find this, but you’ve linked more and better versions anyway.
He’s definitely a lawless murderer, and the types of cops that display his insignia certainly seem to lean fascist, but what makes the Punisher fascist?
I think in this case “fascist” means “anything I don’t like.” You know, like “socialism”.
Am I that old? Words used to have meaning…
It means both things, you just have to pick apart who’s saying it.
Put another way, if someone is a fascist, one of the best things they can do is muddy the waters. Fascists love confusion about what they are. You’re never not going to deal with this problem.
Believes might makes right? But I read the headline here that he’s a fascist-murderer not a Fascist who is a murderer
Yeah, a murderer who targets fascists is how i read it.
Great point - I hadn’t considered that reading of it…
Yeah, but the Punisher isn’t a coward.
There’s a saying I first heard from cops in my country and then later saw pop up in several TV shows, the last one clear in memory being The Rookie.
The saying embodies that whenever cops decide to group together to the point of getting a symbol or name for said group, it’s only a matter of time before they go to jail.
In corrupt countries, they may not actually go to jail, but the point is that whenever cops do this, criminality will always ensue.
I don’t know where the US fits in your consideration of corruption but cops very rarely go to jail here, even (especially?) when they form up around a symbol. Here’s one example: the long-lived murderous LA Sheriff’s Department gangs. https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history/
The point is that when they label themselves with a symbol or name, they up to some criminal shit already or before long.
And yes, sections of US police are corrupt as cops get away with murder on a daily basis.
Corruption doesn’t need to mean they are on the take (although there’s probably plenty that are), it can also simply mean that they turn any level of blind eye for their own or external groups.
Here’s the full comic scene so you don’t need to skim through the whole article to get the bits and pieces of it.
I saw a Don’t Tread on Me sticker right next to a Thin Blue Line sticker the other day (on the back of a giant fuck-off Ford truck, of course) and was like “that dude needs to make up his fuckin’ mind.”
“Tread harder, daddy!” seems more like it
I mean, to me the meaning of that juxtaposition is pretty clear.
The Gadsden flag highlights individual primacy, but the thin blue line sticker makes it clear that it’s his individual primacy that he’s concerned with. For an anti-authoritarian evoking that symbolism, the ‘me’ refers to the general autonomy of humanity or at least Americans, but in this case it probably literally refers to that specific individual’s autonomy or to the autonomy of the United States as a country in a nationalistic sense.
He’s basically just representing his subculture and thumping his chest about how nobody better tell him what to do or get in his way, while also showing that he’s affiliated with a big gang. Whether he’s aware of the racist speech the symbol is referencing or the symbol’s deeper meaning is kind of up in the air, but it still probably wouldn’t produce much conflict with his sense of nationalist autonomy in an authoritarian context regardless.
Honestly, it’s that context that I think makes the association with Punisher inevitable. Whether the character supports the current gang in charge or not, he clearly believes in an authoritarian model of crime and punishment; that’s the lens he views the world through and the impetus for his actions. If it’s satire, it certainly doesn’t read that way. Though, to be fair, the show is probably a lot more egregious in that regard than the comic (while also likely being more widely consumed).
Frank Castle supports authoritarian measures so much that he goes beyond what the legal system allows for. He literally names himself after an action designed to reinforce authoritarian hierarchy. Sounds pretty on the nose to me.
It’s a lot easier to lick boots when they are stepping on you.
The image is kind of wrong. The punisher does not hate cops. He doesn’t like cops that celebrate what he does.
I have read a lot of punisher over the years, and the thing that always infuriates me is how much handwringing there is by some of the writers that always ends up backsliding into “but it’s still pretty cool that he murders people with his super cool guns and a skull on his chest.” The only way to truly break from that image is to completely abandon who the punisher is and enter a new phase entirely that does not regress again. It needs to be like God of War 4. Kratos is not the same person he once was. Yes he is capable of violence, but he clearly does not relish it and does everything he can to avoid conflict as well as truly tries to teach his son that actions have consequences. He has had a spiritual change, essentially, and it is reflected in his actions and demeanor. No, he has not mastered it, no it is not perfect, but he is consistently trying to be better and grow. I cannot say the same for Frank Castle. It always becomes “…but I have to” when he’s barely tried anything else as he then instigates conflict.
Brief moments of “the punisher is actually kind of bad y’all“ that is always surrounded by constant firearm fetishization and glorifying murder/masculinity is just not convincing. No amount of little moments of clarity can fix that.
It’s like all those non-Catholic Christians who display Crusader symbols. They are forgetting that the Crusaders would have murdered believers like them in a heartbeat. Plus the Crusaders probably killed more Christians than Muslims and Jews, since the Muslim conquerors would force the local Christian population to fight on their side.
The Christians, at least during the 3rd crusade fought because they knew the crusaders would murder them despite being Christian. King Richard ‘the lion heart’ had entire towns brutally murdered for mere convenience. Christians looked to Saladin since he was their refuge from the europeans and when he sacked cities didnt banish or commit genocide. Saladin ended up losing his support in the end because he limited his army from pillaging.
Cops are some of the biggest fan boys out there. The movie ‘The French Connection*’ inspired them to wear Popeye’s hat and ankle holster. Magnum PI inspired them to grow mustaches. The TV show Hill Street Blues got them wearing turtlenecks.
*If you haven’t seen it, watch ‘The French Connection.’ Great New York locations, Oscar winning actors, and one of the best car chases ever filmed.
The Punisher is a monster whose only redeeming feature is that he preys on those worse than him.
I don’t even think that is a redeeming feature since he probably gets his targets wrong as frequently as cops do.
Gwenpool knew what to do with The Punisher.
Co-opting stuff isn’t about understanding.
What are the chances that this is about my last comments?
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