For You
One of the more interesting topic I discuss with people is why exactly they formed their vegan belief system. Some point out that they saw a documentary of Youtube video showing the horrors of animal agriculture, but that just points to our gut reaction, not necessarily the logical backing making us change our lifestyles. With that being said, where do you personally derive your beliefs from? Do you hardline certain deontological sticking points like exploitation? Do you just care about the relative net impact on creatures and their ability to thrive? Or is it something else entirely?
Personal Viewpoint
Personally, I draw my entire ethical world view on broad utilitarian viewpoints. So if a chicken were to suffer because of something I did, I must have done something wrong. Equally, if a chicken were to thrive because of something I did, I did something good. However, I do not think about the exploitation nor commodification of that chicken, because those are anthropomorphic ideas that they likely do not care about. Sure, commodification and exploitation are usually wrong because they excuse people’s actions, but, it seems to me that there are some niche cases where these qualities, which we often find as bad, are in fact morally neutral.
I think I realized that after seeing a video of someone who saved several hens from factory farms who were still producing eggs, and continued to use the eggs for their personal usage (feeding carnivorous animals and supplementing their own diet so far as the chicken did not have any physical stressors). I tried to look at the situation objectively to find some issue with the chicken being malnourished, abused, or made to do something they didn’t like. But alas, the hens involved had no medical issues, were able to thrive in a safe and comfortable environment, and were nutritionally supplemented to ensure their well being (i.e., no nutritional deficiencies). Plus, carnivorous animals got a meal so less animals as a whole were harmed.
The humans involved in the prior example did not need to consume the chickens eggs, but doing so posed no ethical issue, so for me, it was ethically neutral - a non issue.
Other Example
If you still want to read, here’s another example of my views. I personally avoid wool as I know where it comes from and the suffering that must be inflicted in our system. However, I acknowledge that there are ways in which wool can be a viable fabric while still allowing for thriving lives for sheep.
First, I think about a normal house dog. They usually hate getting a hair cut when they’re younger because they are scared of the razor. After you get a razor with a cooling blade mechanism and get them exposed to it, they learn to not be afraid of it and instead enjoy the experience since the hair cut doesn’t actually provide any physical pain. For that, I feel no moral qualms with giving them a hair cut because they seems to enjoy or be unbothered by it. If I put in the effort to utilize the hair I cut off in a meaningful way, it’d be fine to do. Especially because I just throw it away otherwise.
Equally, a sheep “wool” is simply their hair. Some breeds have the genetics to grow more or less, but growing it and having it removed do not have to bring about harm - we just do it because we value cheap goods year round far more than their livelyhoods so we adopt cruel standards. If I were to some day have some sort of homestead, where I raised sheep from their adolescence all the way to their death of natural causes, and continued to give to shave their wool, I see not problem with doing so. Given that they are well fed, not hurt in the process, and were given access to natural pastures that they can use to thrive. In fact, I’d argue that is a good thing to do as I’ve taken care of them their entire life (protection from normal predators, warm home, access to food, etc) without harming them in the process.
TL;DR exploitation and commodification are usually bad, but I find the reason for them being bad to be the harm (direct and indirect), not just the fact that they are exploited.
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If I have to say what most convinced me in my head canon/ethics, it would be the one thought experiment where if you got to choose what the world would be like but you couldn’t choose who you would be in the world, what would you want that world to be like?
And I would choose a vegan world every time. So I practice what I want the world to be.
To me, I am the cow, I am the pig, I am me. We are all that blind space traveler. None of us got to choose what body we ended up in.
There are a number of different branches I can go on here, but I’ll just post high level thoughts to start.
The issue with trying to define these lines in a capitalist society is they’ll always be blown past when any leeway is given. If you say “eggs can be harvested ethically”, what you’ll end up with necessarily is the egg industry we have today, where we macerate 10s of millions of baby male chicks a day because they’re not profitable.
If it’s done outside of a capitalist system, then you still have to contend with the idea that permitting these types of exploitation will mean that the people who want the things (eggs/wool/etc.) will do the exploitation on the grounds that they want those products, not because they want to take care of these animals and they have some byproduct you happen to use. The “caretakers” will be focused on their productive output instead of caring for them as pets. This is bad.
More abstractly, utilitarianism has some issues. Approaching morality as a simple math equation can lead to justifying atrocities much easier. When you can just say “the pleasure I get from this is more good than the pain you get is bad”, then you can justify exploitation from a utilitarian perspective. If you take a step back though, it should be obvious that the idea of justifying suffering with pleasure is horrendous, yet this is the core calculus of utilitarianism.
A focus on rights and their violations leads to a moral view that doesn’t allow you to use your own pleasure, or pleasure more generally, to justify inflicting harm. It’s a better system for the oppressed, while utilitarianism is better for the oppressors.
I’m answering first and reading your answer and replies after.
- It is not necessary to consume animal products to meet or exceed nutritional and energy requirements. They are not necessary to clothe or shelter us.
- Consumption of animal products is an inefficient use of land and resources, causing deforestation and food insecurity.
- If culturally normalised globally, meeting demand for animal products results in enormous suffering, to humans and animals. CAFOs cause psychological, ecological, and biological damage. Using products they produce (vegetarianism) usually ends up with them still entering in the same suffering and premature death system because of economic incentives.
- Animals are sentient and prefer a state of relative wellbeing and satisfaction of natural instincts just like we do. Making excuses to violate animals does not align with principals of nonviolence and compassion for beings.
- Altering animals genetically via breeding practices to make them more suitable for our purposes (increasing wool on sheep, increasing meat or egg size on chickens) causes unnecessary suffering.
- We are an exceptionally numerous and powerful species whose actions transform the world. We can make choices that lead to flourishing or to horror on massive scales. We can’t take an “individualist” approach assuming that our specific way of doing things (such as a quaint family farm) would scale across billions of people.
I really admire those who sacrificed sensory pleasures to meet these objectives, but in my part of the world I don’t even have to. While I sacrificed the specific sensory pleasure of specific foods, for me analogous just as satisfactory replacements exist. It’s really not too much different than moving away from a place where you had one favorite restaurant to a place where that restaurant doesn’t exist so you pick a new favorite restaurant.
Sorry, long post ahead:
I agree with points 2, 5, and parts of the others. But I disagree on specifics of a few of said points.
It is not necessary to consume animal products to meet or exceed nutritional and energy requirements. They are not necessary to clothe or shelter us.
It is true that humans can go without an animals byproducts and survive with ease. However, I will note that in an ideal scenario of no-slaughter and high-welfare laws, wool is a superior alternative to plastic clothing given how wasteful plastic products are. However, this is only relevant for cold parts of the world where normal cotton clothing is inadequate. I myself opt for plastic and second hand wool, but would rather have an option of a sheep in my care which would never encounter any harm if we are to continue to experience cold environments. Additionally, eggs specifically serve as a great means to care for non-human animals that do indeed need animal-based foods. Maybe in the future, lab grown meat will replace the need for this, but currently it seems to be the best option to reduce suffering overall. Finally, just because something is not necessary, does not mean we shouldn’t do it. If indeed my hypothetical care for a hen is only positive (nutritionally thriving, warm home, freedom to roam the yard to scavenge and perch, etc), then eating the non-fertilized eggs they produce is a neutral act. As with the example in the original post, if you were to use a dogs hair they let out from shedding as a coat, I would view that as a completely neutral option. Maybe slightly positive since it would be thrown out otherwise.
Using products they produce (vegetarianism) usually ends up with them still entering in the same suffering and premature death system because of economic incentives.
Usually, yes. but I do not advocate for this. I advocate for a future of companionship between humans and chickens that features either a commensalistic or mutualistic relationship. One where no one is harmed. Something along the lines of how people treat their dogs/cats now. I believe this is quite achievable with animal welfare laws.
We can’t take an “individualist” approach assuming that our specific way of doing things (such as a quaint family farm) would scale across billions of people.
Sure, a quaint farm wouldn’t scale across a billion people. But you do not need it to. I am specifically pointing to this being a good relationship, not that all people should have it. Similarly, I advocate for people to grow their own food. However, I understand that mass farming is necessary for plant foods to be grown for a majority of people. If we are to assume that my hypothetical situation features no harm to the chickens while giving them a great life (like I might give for my dog), then I see it as a net good.
Animals are sentient and prefer a state of relative wellbeing and satisfaction of natural instincts just like we do. Making excuses to violate animals does not align with principals of nonviolence and compassion for beings.
This is my biggest drop off in views. Non-human animals definitely do prefer a state of well being and do seem to have senses of individualism and other traits we value. However, it is important not to assign anthropomorphic ideas to them. For example, I know my dog loves to go outside and run around. If I were to give him full freedom and access to express his natural instincts, I would just let him outside to roam free. However, I know that I can give him a superior that features living in a warm area with access to food at standard times, frequent treats, and lots of time exercising outside with me or others present. I would view chickens in the same way I view said dog. An animal I ought to take care of while letting them express their instincts to a reasonable extent as to not harm them. So i’d give them a heated barn to protect them from the elements and predatory animals as well as provide nutritional assistance as foraging is not always ideal. During the day, they’d be free to roam the yard and fulfill their wishes.
I think it’s very important to acknowledge how awful living in the wild really is. Obviously, the current treatment of animals is worse, but I wouldn’t say we shouldn’t live with them as a part of our lives. Just a far better relationship featuring care and never harm.
I had a similar discussion here, if you’re not in a long conversation sorta mood. Nevoic and I talked about the relative merits of rights vs welfare approaches. I think my conclusion after speaking with them is that I still find utilitarian systems of practice to be more reasonable, but I understand and can empathize with the deontologists
I choose not to refer to myself or other people with philosophical terms. I prefer to use the words to describe specific arguments. Basically a person can make a deontological argument without referring to themselves as a deontologist. I think the scenarios of life are diverse enough that a person may find one way of reasoning more applicable in a certain realm and another in another. Or you could even want to justify an action with multiple arguments. Sometimes, I make deontological arguments for my social relationships but I don’t commonly use them outside. I often find utilitarian arguments useful, but they also have their limitations.
I didn’t enjoy giving up wool when I became a vegan because I was a needlefelter. I also don’t think anyone can deny that wool is a material with great properties.
But in the reality of the world we live in, and specifically for me, my use of wool is potentially tied up with a system of live transport. Typically when animals used for wool reach the end of their lives, they’re packed up on ships in a brutal manner and sent to be processed for meat. I’d hate to make a mistake and accidentally support that, either by making an errant purchase or stochastically inducing someone else to buy wool who would likely buy it from that system instead of mutualistic scenarios.
I don’t really have a enough of a problem with someone buying secondhand wool to protest it. There are products that I purchased before becoming vegan that I’m using until the end of their lifespan.
Personally, I don’t necessarily have a problem with mutualistic relationships between animals and humans, such as we see in certain sanctuaries. I’d be willing to evaluate moral decisions in such situations on a case by case basis. But I do think that in today’s climate, animal welfare is just a smokescreen for animal exploitation. So many people justify eating meat from CAFOs with the idea that they buy from family farms some percentage of the time. The urgency for me is to stop the massive exploitation than to entertain edge cases, and the way to do that is to advocate veganism.
As to whether it would be morally neutral for me to eat an egg from a backyard hen in specific scenarios, perhaps it is. I just don’t really see why I would, when I don’t have any real reason to. I think that feeding eggs from rescued hens to other rescued animals is potentially justifiable, although I would want to learn more and rule out alternatives before I would confidently vote yes that its ok to do it.
Yeah, green/ethical washing seems to be annoyingly more prevalent these days. One thing that you might be interested in, given your pluralist approach to ethics, is this strategy guide to the welfarist approach. It acknowledges that we need to change people’s mind, but also presents the idea that cultures change slowly so we should probably target easy to achieve goals (cage free -> pasture raised -> no slaughter ->). I will always tell people to just stop doing what they’re doing, but if I have to focus on a wide scale issue, i’ll focus on something achievable to get the ball rolling. After all, it’s very easy to go from flexitarian to vegetarian/vegan than it is to go from a carnist to a vegan.
I’m just curious- how much footage / information have you seen about what actually goes down in the “cage free” egg industry? Why exactly do you see that as “better”?
To me, all that does is convince someone to buy more expensive eggs, when they could just not and save themselves the surcharge.
I am quite aware of each of the labels and their often times meaningless qualities. Have spent about 5 years in the activism space, although there’s always something new.
But I will say, each step is indeed better. You are right to point out that others will just buy the caged-chicken eggs as they’re cheaper. This tells me we need better legislation so standards are not up to struggling individuals, but enforced laws. But people will not vote for law makers nor will law makers introduce and vote on bills that are unpopular with people. We need more people to feel that cage-free is the default. This is obviously just a stepping stone, but it is a vital one.
Each step, while incremental, is vital to changing the world. There are a significant portion of people currently alive that will never change there ways unless given an easier solution. They ought to change, but we need to work with what we can for the time being. With that, we can advocate for policy changes, research in good alternatives, and bring about campaigns without the corporate sphere, even if it seems like we’re doing very little.
Even if the goal is the abolition of human and non-human interaction, we need logical steps to get there. Otherwise, we don’t move the world forward.
I come from the perspective of someone who felt tricked into years of animal exploitation by the welfarist position. I wasted hundreds if not thousands of dollars buying grassfed, free range, yada yada bullshit.
And in my view I should have just either kept that money or just went vegan. I don’t think jt did anything good, I don’t think it moved the world further at all. All it did was make me poorer and make me delay doing the right thing, the thing that does make a difference, which is going vegan.
Its not to say I wouldn’t engage in dirty pragmatism when I’m arguing with others. I emulate my best friend who made the biggest impact on me. I’m ok using any means necessary to make carnists reduce their consumption of animal products, including praising “small steps” like Veganuary or meatless monday or something. But my friend never coddled my delusion of animal welfarism and I also draw the line there.
Would I vote on a bill that made battery cages illegal? Sure. Would I try to convince carnists to also do that? Sure. That’s the extent of it. I’m not going to tell someone cage free is ok or better. Id just focus on how bad battery cages are.
I think that is a reasonable approach. I also reason personally that just not buying the eggs is better than the pasture raised eggs. That being said, my OP was about the theoretical on what is right and wrong, not the practical advice I’d tell others in their purchasing decisions.
Good discussion on how we ought to engage with people. 10/10 would do again
My current stand is reduce the suffering in the world as much as possible. You can’t be perfect.
I have an interesting question. My girlfriend is a vet and she has a vet pharmacy. She has saved a lot of animals and in the same time she sells animal food and most of it is made from meat.
Without selling animal food the pharmacy will not exist since it’s the most of the income and without the pharmacy she will not be able to save animals.
Is selling meat in this case justified, in your point of view?
Vets are not interested in animal welfare. Your wife’s profession exists to enable and enhance the exploitation of animals. Without disrespect.
I don’t think it makes sense to kill an animal to “rescue” another animal from any ethical point of view. We do it because we love one animal more than another, or because one animal is more valuable as property than another animal, or other reasons that have nothing to do with animal ethics.
I See your point but I don’t agree. Saing vets are not interested in animal welfare is like saying doctors are no interested in human welfare.
In a perfect world people will not have pets. I don’t now where you are from but here we have a big problem with homeless dogs and cats. Its because of people like her the animals on the street are having a better life and preventing from more animals ending the same way.
From me is important the difference that a person is able to make. Not selling food will not change anything because people are going to buy it from someware anyway. Saving few hundred animals makes a difference.
That’s just not a valid comparison.
A doctor has a duty of care to their patient. A doctor must not do anything that is not in their patient’s best interests.
A vet has a duty of service to their patients OWNER. A vet will do anything to their patient that the owner pays for. If I own a bull, and I want to hold his heart in my hand just because I think that would be cool, a vet will help me make that happen.
They are not at all the same thing.
Most vets work in the field of animal agriculture. They are facilitating cruelty and violence on an industrial scale. They are not looking out for the welfare of animals. The animals that they treat are property; those animals exist for some function that serves humans, and vets very obviously exist to facilitate that exploitation, not to come to the aid of the exploited animals.
Why shouldn’t stray animals that cannot take care of themselves and have no human guardians be destroyed? Why should we instead kill OTHER animals so that these ones can be kept alive? No animals are being saved! You’re just choosing to kill a bunch of food animals instead of one pet. It’s self-interested speciesism, not altruistic compassion!
