yours is not the only one captivated. mine and many across latin america are so captivated we actually elect these people to power lol. it’s fine anyway since I selfishly want the government in iran to remain in power long enough to kill israel you can selfishly want the anti-american governments to stay in power to oppose your country. also honduras is a western country too lmao
you can selfishly want the anti-american governments to stay in power to oppose your country. also honduras is a western country too lmao
Yes this is exactly the point being made here. Its not even selfish. Its just how Lenininst antiimperalism works. Wanting American hegenomy to be hurt as an American is actually the opposite of selfish?
Also for the last line, yes its in the western hemisphere but its not part of the imperial core. Which is why we carefully use that language instead. The tem “western” is fairly useless for this reason.
You are probably thinking about the foundations of leninism by stalin, specifically the chapter on the national question.
Relevant section being:
The same must be said of the revolutionary character of national movements in general. The unquestionably revolutionary character of the vast majority of national movements is as relative and peculiar as is the possible revolutionary character of certain particular national movements. The revolutionary character of a national movement under the conditions of imperialist oppression does not necessarily presuppose the existence of proletarian elements in the movement, the existence of a revolutionary or a republican programme of the movement, the existence of a democratic basis of the movement. The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such “desperate” democrats and “Socialists,” “revolutionaries” and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism. For the same reasons, the struggle that the Egyptians merchants and bourgeois intellectuals are waging for the independence of Egypt is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the bourgeois origin and bourgeois title of the leaders of Egyptian national movement, despite the fact that they are opposed to socialism; whereas the struggle that the British “Labour” Government is waging to preserve Egypt’s dependent position is for the same reason a reactionary struggle, despite the proletarian origin and the proletarian title of the members of the government, despite the fact that they are “for” socialism. There is no need to mention the national movement in other, larger, colonial and dependent countries, such as India and China, every step of which along the road to liberation, even if it runs counter to the demands of formal democracy, is a steam-hammer blow at imperialism, i.e., is undoubtedly a revolutionary step.
Lenin was right in saying that the national movement of the oppressed countries should be appraised not from the point of view of formal democracy, but from the point of view of the actual results, as shown by the general balance sheet of the struggle against imperialism, that is to say, “not in isolation, but on a world scale”
Revolutionary defeatism means opposing your own nation, not “both sidesing”. In effect, that means lesser of two evils thinking is inherent to revolutionary defeatism. I get if you are allergic to moralistic phrasing of the concept, but it does ultimately come down to destroying ones own empire above all else because it’s what you have understanding of and any ability to influence. Which, when speaking of global events, de facto forces any Americans or westoids to first and foremost prioritize targeting “the greater evil” of the Anglo-American empire.
Biden is an imperialist. Why would opposing one’s own empire lead to supporting one’s own imperialists? Do you hear yourself? America is the “greater evil”. Any pro-America bourgious politician of any stripe is an enemy and the “greater evil”. The “lesser evil” is foreign influence and stuff like Russian money to spread anti-western propaganda (such as Richard Medhurst or Ben Norton do most likely)
you need to reread lenin he never said anything about “imperial core” that’s just stuff made up by wallerstein called world-systems theory and is neither leninist or marxist
see I’m gonna trust lenin and marx over a yale and colombia professor who only has ties to the british. zero ML countries adhere to world-systems theory and for good reasons
depends country to country at different points in time. obviously first i’d have to ask who’s side you were on in the sino-soviet split just as a baseline. or to go further, whether or not you support stalin’s decision to recognize and send aid to israel when it declared independence
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but no Latin American nations are included in “the collective west” which is purely white and rich nations. They don’t allow you in the club. Americans and Europeans don’t consider south or Central America white despite how white the local comprador classes consider themselves
This conversation is obviously a waste of time given people are trying to explain what the West actually constitutes and you’re claiming that means those people are racist.
But yes, racism is very much essential to the concept of the West.
croatia is a majority catholic slavic country
You sort of hit the nail on the head there.
This was the portrayal of Germany in WW1, drawing on the ‘asiatic hordes’ imagery (dating back to and before when Europe was getting wrecked by Eurasian people):
essentialist definitions of the west based on racial categories
Yes this is how the West defines itself.
you can ask anyone in the latin america world, which is hundreds of millions of people, and they’ll tell you they’re western due to historic and cultural and religious ties.
I agree entirely.
why even bring up the germany ww1 portrayal thing are you trying to argue that germany wasn’t western until after ww1?
The point is that “Western” is a changing category (for those outside the five eyes anyway) without any rigorously defined criteria. Russia is a good recent example.
your argument against that is because you can imagine some reactionary in america or europe who would disagree?
I don’t need to imagine that, and they do disagree. And the reason why what a reactionary thinks matters is because they are unfortunately have a great deal of power.
The point is that “Western” is a changing category (for those outside the five eyes anyway) without any rigorously defined criteria. Russia is a good recent example.
It’s not a changing category. It’s just Europe.
Within Europe, those borders can change. But nothing outside of Europeans (including European Americans) will ever be treated as “Western”
you can ask anyone in the latin america world, which is hundreds of millions of people, and they’ll tell you they’re western due to historic and cultural and religious ties.
lmao
Clemente: “I’m in the club too amigos!!”
Cletus: cocks shotgun
thousands of people who look like you, who were US citizens, were illegally deported to Mexico by US police. This would never happen to an indigenous inhabitant of an actual Western country, even if they were here illegally. Illegal immigrants from Poland don’t get questioned on the street, while LEGAL US CITIZENS OF MEXICAN DESCENT get illegally deported: does that sound like people who are part of the same bloc to you?
I personally know light skinned US-born Indians, who would “pass” as any Latino ethnicity, perfect US-American accent, who were killed in broad daylight in the rural areas of Missouri and the police purposely ignored it
You are just not western and you never will be. You seem obsessed with being considered part of the west, but the reality is that you just aren’t.
Nobody here is obsessed with race, our enemies are obsessed with race (and they know better than to admit it in public). So we learn quickly
As a European I can tell you that Croatia is not considered part of Europe proper. Its where we go for vacations and cheap booze.
It doesn’t matter that they’re white and Christian. They’re Slavic or Balkan which means they’re not “european” in the common conception.
Same goes for Slovenia.
The Czech kind of get an on/off perception of wether or not they’re European. The Czechs are mad about this, since they are very obviously “culturally” european, however they’re also an old east block country, which makes them slabs, which means they cannot possibly be real europeans.
Why does the US consider everything south of it its “backyard” and not Canada? I promise you the average American doesn’t think of some white German descendent when you talk about South America unless it’s Argentina
the monroe doctrine definitely included canada after it stopped being a UK colony. and what does americans thinking latin america being full of germans have to do with anything?
also if you’re looking for “Germanic” looking people in Argentina you’ll be pretty disappointed. They’re basically 30% Native (Mapuche, Toba, and Guarani) and 70% Southern European (Spanish Italian)
Doesn’t matter, that’s not what people in America or Europe think and they don’t consider them in the club. The “collective west” and the “global north” and the “first world” are racist clubs filled with white people and nobody in those groups consider Latin America part of it
I’m talking about the media classes and elite and rulers who use the terms. When they say “first world” they are not talking about a single country south of Texas
uh no? It’s entirely the common people in the west too.
the average white westerner uses “North America” as a term that excludes Mexico, for god sake. Yes, whites are literally retconning the geographic term “North America” to constitute an ethnoracial zone which excludes Mexico, in the same way that they retconned the terms “Caucasian” “Indian” “continent” “Aryan” and many more, all of which had actual rigorous definitions but now literally just mean “white people”
any Latino who thinks they’re “western” in any sense other than cardinal directions is beyond me, they’ve literally been doing this shit for 300 years kek
I agree with you. This user was being a pedant so I went with the most airtight argument and just accused western elites of being white supremacists instead of the majority of westerners as it’s easier to prove
media classes and elite in what country and language? different countries and different languages have different media and different terms. also first world is different from western
It doesn’t matter, almost everyone in Europe speaks fluent American English, and in 20 years’ time you can remove the “almost”
European American culture influences Europeans 100x more than vice versa. Most Americans can’t name anything about modern European mindsets or politics. Most Europeans know everything about America’s dirty laundry and social culture.
Almost every European country would not be willing to help Colombia if it had a major crisis.
The only Euro country majorly willing to help was Spain, which makes some sense considering the entire continent is partial descendants of them.
But even then, Spain was less willing to help Colombia than it would other Southern European and even Northern European countries which are MUCH richer than Colombia.
Since Colombia is a Latin American country which was recently loosely allied with the West, doesn’t have any major geopolitical disputes with them (unlike Cuba Bolivia Venezuela), and also since it’s a very solidly “Mestizo” country (unlike Bolivia Peru) it is a very good proxy for basically any Latin American nation. Their opinion on Colombia, basically, is “as good as it gets” for Latin American countries.
You are not white and never will be, and the honest and emotional conception of the term “Western” is entirely based on race and collective racial interests of white people. Russia isn’t in it because Russia wants more stuff at the expense of other Whites. Latin American countries aren’t in it because they’re not white.
I’m not sure why so much of the rest-of-the-world outside the West is delusional about this. Maybe they’re projecting their natural goodwill onto white people lmao? Or maybe they’re so ridiculously prideful that they’re allergic to seeing themselves as an “oppressed group” that they’ll deny the most basic evidence of reality in order to boost their ego?
Some of those results are very funny and interesting. Italy having a specific grudge against Germany that isnt even remotely mutual is my favorite. Followed by Spain being willing to help everyone, except the UK
You’ll be surprised to know that people in Europe don’t even consider most of Europe “western” and most definitely not middle or south America.
It’s not about religion or culture really. Sweden and France doesn’t have a lot in common, but they’re both “the west”. Poland isn’t though. Spain just barely qualifies.
Are you being some kind of weird nazi pick-me, or are you just severely misinformed?
The average person in Mexico, Central America, Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Peru, Chile, Bolivia, and like 75% of Brazil just doesn’t pass as a white person here in the US.
that’s like 90% of Latin America or 75% of South America. They’re not white, they’re admixed with Europeans. Just like Black Americans are.
I know a lot of you think you’re white because you’re lighter skinned than black people. Arabs and lighter skinned Indians also think that a lot of the time. They’re not. Almost everyone in Northern Europe and Anglo America can tell the difference
and tbh even Argentinians don’t really look that white to me on average.
Also, South America is FAR poorer than Croatia. Latter is $17k GDP per head. Average South American GDP is $10k according to stats, but these don’t weight for population so small rich countries like Chile and Uruguay make it falsely larger. South America is dominated by Brazil whose GDP is $7k per head, so yea Latin American avg GDP/capita is something like $9,000 if we’re being very optimistic.
And like somebody already said, Croatia itself is the periphery of the west
We’re not “obsessed with race”, we’re just aware that the rightists who invented the social construct that is “the west” and talk about it all the time are. They’re white supremacists. And “the west” is a white supremacist construct. Being aware of that is a good thing. I dont understand what your disconnect is.
Youre being so pendantic for no reason. Its widely understood that the modern concept of “the west” is a white supremacist concept. Regardless of origina. Thats how they justify things like America and Canada “belonging to white people”. Thats how they justify all sorts of imperialist actions (the west civilizing the barbarians).
I can assure you that the vast majority of people in the world, and probably the united states, are not as clued up about white supremacist phraseology as you and when they hear the term western culture don’t immediately start to think of roman salutes and blood quantum
Look, neither you or I get to define what “the West” means. It is a racist concept, but that’s the unfortunate reality of the situation. “The West” is not defined by who thinks they should belong to it, it’s defined by the material reality of exploitation. It’s nearly synonymous with “Imperial Core.” If you’re in the periphery, you are not part of “The West” no matter how much your society mirrors so-called western culture. Just as a regular worker is not part of the bourgeoisie no matter how much they want to be. There are the exploiters and the exploited. Latam, on the global stage, is exploited by the imperial core and there is no escaping that fact. The exploiters will never see it as part of their club because they’re exploiting it! It’s not like we (hexbears or leftists in general) see this as a good thing or want to perpetuate it. We want to tear it the fuck down. But we can’t deny material reality, and it seems like that’s what you’re trying to do by insisting that Latam is western and getting mad at us for the fact that it’s largely racism that determines who belongs to the in-group “Western” and who doesn’t.
Well, the Philippines is a majority Christian country that speaks English.
For another example, Zambia is a majority Christian country that speaks English.
The “West” is an overwhelmingly racist concept that produces bizarre things like the categorisation of countries in South America as not being western despite for example Uruguay or Argentina having a majority of people with predominantly European ancestors
the phillipines speaks over 100 malayo-polynessian languages and zambia speaks a similar number of bantu languages. neither of them speak english as a primary language nor do they have the same connection to the west that latin america does
they speak lots of english in vietnam doesn’t make vietnam western. and there are different types and styles of colonization and imperialism it’s not just a one mode thing
The “West” is an overwhelmingly racist concept that produces bizarre things like the categorisation of countries in South America as not being western despite for example Uruguay or Argentina having a majority of people with predominantly European ancestors
a ton of Black Americans also have predominantly European ancestors, I guess racism is solved since they’re all “western” right?
You can cope or bloviate all you want about this stuff, but real white people know the score and are playing the game. If you’re pale with at least brown hair and have an American accent then sure, you pass regardless of what your ancestry is
The “West” is and HAS to be a racial concept, because if it weren’t basically half if not the majority of the world could be considered Western and the term would just be meaningless. The racial concept is also in accordance with how westerners (actual ones) act.
The “West” is an overwhelmingly racist concept that produces bizarre things like the categorisation of countries in South America as not being western despite for example Uruguay or Argentina having a majority of people with predominantly European ancestors
This is not bizarre at all.
Uruguay and Argentina are exceptions. The average person in most South American countries save Uruguay, Argentina, and southern Brazil have close to 50% Euro admixture. In some countries like Peru, Bolivia, and others, it’s lower than 25%. And in some of those countries they still speak Native American languages in significant parts.
This Euro admixture comes entirely from southern Europe. Italian Americans were discriminated well into the 1990s (possibly even now), while Irish Americans lost their stigma in the 1930s. Looks matter. And South Americans’ European ancestry comes from an already visibly darker population (Spanish rather than Germans/Anglos)
,
Also: Europeans have predominantly Middle Eastern ancestors. They’re literally 60% Middle Eastern by blood (on average–it’s closer to 80% in Southern Europe). However, they got extra depigmented due to dark climates and mixture with northern aboriginals. Guess what? They look different, so they are able to do racism based on these physical differences. Hence, European and Middle Eastern are different blocs, despite the former being majority derived from the latter.
Guess who also looks different from Europeans? Every single Latino population, yes even the Argentinians. Despite them being derived from Europeans, they are not European. It is visually obvious that they are not European, even if they are majority European DNA. And so racism can be done to them. And so they cannot ever be considered part of the same bloc.
And yes, there are technically “white Argentinians”, this is irrelevant. Only 30% of Argentinians (I’m spitballing here) look unnoticable from a US white person to me.
I agree with you as a Guatemalan. I’ve always considered our countries part of the West and think it’s a little patronizing how richer Western nations don’t consider us Western. The diaspora like to push this idea that we’re majority indigenous and that indigenous cultures are more prevalent than they actually are.
We’re kind of like the Balkans. They go on and off as to whether or not we’re included as Western or not.
I’ve always considered our countries part of the West and think it’s a little patronizing how richer Western nations don’t consider us Western
Don’t you think that if your people are treated as second-class citizens in core Western countries, that you might actually NOT be Western in the eyes of anyone who actually cares about these terms?
Like, why can’t you take the hint? Or have you really not figured it out yet?
How is observing reality patronizing? Why do you be want to considered “Western” so bad? Why can’t you just be happy being Latin American?
person a: “you’re dumb”
person b: “wow I’ve always noticed that my friend is so patronizing to me?”
person c: “uh maybe they’re not actually your friend then”
person b: “wow your patronization is right on cue”
It is patronizing when you consider agreeing with your position to be
the UTMOST FUNDAMENTAL basis upon which to change your lives
Like yeah, thanks buddy, I’ll go with our Honduran comrade in trying to remind Hexbear that latin american people should be taken as having their own thoughts and motivations
I’m palestinian honduran so I wouldn’t even bother trying to argue with the few people I’d run into that seriously consider race what makes someone western. I still don’t see why it matters so much to american leftists tho. is bashing on the west too awkward for them if you include poorer countries in the americas and balkans? I don’t get the point in bashing anyway I’m not gonna feel guilty for being born in the west
Leftists have already figured out the difference between these regions, if you’re curious. The Balkans are peripheral Europe. https://hexbear.net/post/1385667
Western can be a misnomer like global south. Half the time when I say NATO I’m mentally including Japan and Australia and occupied Korea. Japan and occupied Korea are pretty damn Western now depending on how you mean that.
I’m palestinian honduran so I wouldn’t even bother trying to argue with the few people I’d run into that seriously consider race what makes someone western.
those “few people”, aka the entirety of the population who actually cares about this shit lmao. Including the cunning ones who pretend to consider you guys “western” just for optics, and then support every standard right-wing American position
Nobody considers Christian, Portugese-speaking Angola to be “Western”. Race is literally half the criteria.
I still don’t see why it matters so much to american leftists tho
uhhh…because it matters to american rightists? If you spent a few months in America in a rural area with an Islamic name I think you’d learn pretty quick
“Western” = politically western European, and white
Russia isn’t politically western so they don’t fit
Poland used to not be western, but now is
Parts of the Balkans are part of the west (certainly not in the core though)
Japan and Korea are rich and vassal states of NATO, but are not white
America is technically mixed race, but the average white American is 98.5% white (and western european to boot), unlike any “white” person in any Latin country where even the least mixed people are still 20% Native admixed
Nothing in Latin America is Western in any sense other than cardinal directions. Yes, you’re all Christian and part Spanish/Portu, but any “camaraderie” you see there is a completely one-way street–the people in Europe do NOT feel that way mutually about you, even if they don’t get as violent about it as in the US. You could MAYBE make an exception for Argentina and Uruguay because it seems a lot of them (still not all) are close enough on racial criteria to “pass” visually. Places like Mexico and Colombia will never be western, because you can’t be part of a group if your people get hatecrimed on sight (with no repercussions) in said countries .
there’s some Indian American kid (same skin tone as the average Colombian or Peruvian) who got put in a chokehold at his school in Texas and then suspended for 3 days while his bully got 1 day (no he didn’t even fight back)
this happened in suburban Texas btw, I know people whose friends have been killed in rural areas of the plains states.
I’ve always considered our countries part of the West and think it’s a little patronizing how richer Western nations don’t consider us Western.
They don’t consider you part of their racist white supremacist club, that’s a fact. Why do you want to be in it so bad and consider it offensive when they don’t include you? It should be an honor to be separate from the West, the West TM is fascist scum
No, I think Latin America has more in common with itself. Tons of countries in Asia and Africa (basically every country) has significant and sometimes complete fluency in a European language, and are Christian, but not considered Western.
Not to mention that many Latin American countries and subregions have huge cultural influences from regional Native American cultures and enslaved Africans
Latin America has never received economic benefits from the Western umbrella in the way that the EU states have. And they probably never will, and their racial origin is the most major reason for this. They are not Western.
Latin America has been westernized by continuous economical, cultural, and imperialist influence by the United States (and other global north countries), it doesn’t make sense to think of our countries as some non-Western society, it’s inaccurate and a bad framework to try to change our life. Our religions have been westernized, our mode of production is capitalism, our cultural references are western cultural products, our music is dependent on western notions of what is “good” music. The products that we buy and we sell, that we most value are influenced by westernized perceptions of value.
Yes, there are bubbles, territories, regions, where this is not true, maybe even glimpses in everyday life, but it’s not the case for the vast majority of people living in Latin America. We may not be part of the west in a historical sense, but we are westernized countries living in the world that the West has created for us with violence.
Latin America has been westernized by continuous economical, cultural, and imperialist influence by the United States (and other global north countries), it doesn’t make sense to think of our countries as some non-Western society, it’s inaccurate and a bad framework to try to change our life.
I’m going to paste what I said in another comment replying to another user just because it mostly applies here too.
Look, neither you or I get to define what “the West” means. It is a racist concept, but that’s the unfortunate reality of the situation. “The West” is not defined by who thinks they should belong to it, it’s defined by the material reality of exploitation. It’s nearly synonymous with “Imperial Core.” If you’re in the periphery, you are not part of “The West” no matter how much your society mirrors so-called western culture. Just as a regular worker is not part of the bourgeoisie no matter how much they want to be. There are the exploiters and the exploited. Latam, on the global stage, is exploited by the imperial core and there is no escaping that fact. The exploiters will never see it as part of their club because they’re exploiting it! It’s not like we (hexbears or leftists in general) see this as a good thing or want to perpetuate it. We want to tear it the fuck down. But we can’t deny material reality, and it seems like that’s what you’re trying to do by insisting that Latam is western and getting mad at us for the fact that it’s largely racism that determines who belongs to the in-group “Western” and who doesn’t.
We may not be part of the west in a historical sense, but we are westernized countries living in the world that the West has created for us with violence.
Absolutely. So you do see it is “The West” that unfortunately gets to define who belongs in the club, and it does so via violence. The West has violently created the world you live in, but that does not make the world you live in part of it, no matter how many people around you mistakenly think it does.
If it has been “westernized” then you are basically admitting right there it is not the west.
Yes, much of the world has been colonized and injected with white supremacist ideology, ie “westernized”. That doesn’t make much of the world “The West”
it doesn’t make sense to think of our countries as some non-Western society, it’s inaccurate and a bad framework to try to change our life.
wrong, it’s the UTMOST FUNDAMENTAL basis upon which to change your lives
if Latinos can’t even agree that they are their own bloc, then how do you expect change to ever occur? Imagine if China was 20 different countries, with squabbles about the North being “uhhh totally Mongol/Russian acktschyually” do you think they would have ended up better or worse materially? Obviously a lot worse!
why is India doing better than Nepal Pakistan Sri Lanka etc? Why do they have 300 nukes and a space program?
Because it’s a union of smaller countries like Punjab Tamil Nadu Kerala and etc. India is still bad, but if there were a communist revolution there, there’s nothing the West could do! While in a small country like Niger or Kenya, they can just overthrow it easily!
and if the Indian nation-states (meaning Punjab and Kerala and Maharashtra and Assam) can unite, there’s no reason that Latin American countries can’t do so. The Indian ones have 4-10k years of uninterrupted history and ethnic differentiation, so I think a continent where everybody already speaks Spanish and Portuguese can manage the same thing
Also: if an average person from your bloc can get hatecrimed on sight in another country with no repercussions then guess what? that country is not a part of your bloc! Neither geopolitically NOR ethnoculturally! basic logic!
yours is not the only one captivated. mine and many across latin america are so captivated we actually elect these people to power lol. it’s fine anyway since I selfishly want the government in iran to remain in power long enough to kill israel you can selfishly want the anti-american governments to stay in power to oppose your country. also honduras is a western country too lmao
Yes this is exactly the point being made here. Its not even selfish. Its just how Lenininst antiimperalism works. Wanting American hegenomy to be hurt as an American is actually the opposite of selfish?
Also for the last line, yes its in the western hemisphere but its not part of the imperial core. Which is why we carefully use that language instead. The tem “western” is fairly useless for this reason.
It’s “useless” because only people who live in the west know what it actually means: western and white
Or in other words, European (minus Russia)
Non-white people who live outside of the US/Northern Europe don’t know. They’re playing checkers while everyone else is playing chess lol
lesser of the two evilism has NOTHING to do with Lenin keep his name out of your mouth before actually opening a book for once
Sorry im taking my lead here from every ML ive ever encountered’s opinion on geopolitics. If its ignorant i apologize.
Eta: honestly based on your post history i dont see you as someone i have to take particularly seriously lol
You are probably thinking about the foundations of leninism by stalin, specifically the chapter on the national question.
Relevant section being:
The same must be said of the revolutionary character of national movements in general. The unquestionably revolutionary character of the vast majority of national movements is as relative and peculiar as is the possible revolutionary character of certain particular national movements. The revolutionary character of a national movement under the conditions of imperialist oppression does not necessarily presuppose the existence of proletarian elements in the movement, the existence of a revolutionary or a republican programme of the movement, the existence of a democratic basis of the movement. The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such “desperate” democrats and “Socialists,” “revolutionaries” and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism. For the same reasons, the struggle that the Egyptians merchants and bourgeois intellectuals are waging for the independence of Egypt is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the bourgeois origin and bourgeois title of the leaders of Egyptian national movement, despite the fact that they are opposed to socialism; whereas the struggle that the British “Labour” Government is waging to preserve Egypt’s dependent position is for the same reason a reactionary struggle, despite the proletarian origin and the proletarian title of the members of the government, despite the fact that they are “for” socialism. There is no need to mention the national movement in other, larger, colonial and dependent countries, such as India and China, every step of which along the road to liberation, even if it runs counter to the demands of formal democracy, is a steam-hammer blow at imperialism, i.e., is undoubtedly a revolutionary step.
Lenin was right in saying that the national movement of the oppressed countries should be appraised not from the point of view of formal democracy, but from the point of view of the actual results, as shown by the general balance sheet of the struggle against imperialism, that is to say, “not in isolation, but on a world scale”
Revolutionary defeatism means opposing your own nation, not “both sidesing”. In effect, that means lesser of two evils thinking is inherent to revolutionary defeatism. I get if you are allergic to moralistic phrasing of the concept, but it does ultimately come down to destroying ones own empire above all else because it’s what you have understanding of and any ability to influence. Which, when speaking of global events, de facto forces any Americans or westoids to first and foremost prioritize targeting “the greater evil” of the Anglo-American empire.
Removed by mod
Biden is an imperialist. Why would opposing one’s own empire lead to supporting one’s own imperialists? Do you hear yourself? America is the “greater evil”. Any pro-America bourgious politician of any stripe is an enemy and the “greater evil”. The “lesser evil” is foreign influence and stuff like Russian money to spread anti-western propaganda (such as Richard Medhurst or Ben Norton do most likely)
you need to reread lenin he never said anything about “imperial core” that’s just stuff made up by wallerstein called world-systems theory and is neither leninist or marxist
Because in their times there were still competing imperial powers. There wasnt unipolarity at the time.
see I’m gonna trust lenin and marx over a yale and colombia professor who only has ties to the british. zero ML countries adhere to world-systems theory and for good reasons
Cuba and the DPRK dont see the United States as an imperial hegemon?
I don’t think either call it hegemonism that’s a chinese thing and even then there’s a big leap going from hegemonism to imperial core
So what is the view of imperialism in ML countries and how does it contradicr?
depends country to country at different points in time. obviously first i’d have to ask who’s side you were on in the sino-soviet split just as a baseline. or to go further, whether or not you support stalin’s decision to recognize and send aid to israel when it declared independence
I’m going to trust the DPRK who have never been wrong over leftcom ultras who consistently get it wrong
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but no Latin American nations are included in “the collective west” which is purely white and rich nations. They don’t allow you in the club. Americans and Europeans don’t consider south or Central America white despite how white the local comprador classes consider themselves
you do realize south america is full of white people and is as rich as like croatia or whatever right?
Is this a bit account? Croatia is barely a western country
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This conversation is obviously a waste of time given people are trying to explain what the West actually constitutes and you’re claiming that means those people are racist.
But yes, racism is very much essential to the concept of the West.
You sort of hit the nail on the head there.
This was the portrayal of Germany in WW1, drawing on the ‘asiatic hordes’ imagery (dating back to and before when Europe was getting wrecked by Eurasian people):
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Yes this is how the West defines itself.
I agree entirely.
The point is that “Western” is a changing category (for those outside the five eyes anyway) without any rigorously defined criteria. Russia is a good recent example.
I don’t need to imagine that, and they do disagree. And the reason why what a reactionary thinks matters is because they are unfortunately have a great deal of power.
It’s not a changing category. It’s just Europe.
Within Europe, those borders can change. But nothing outside of Europeans (including European Americans) will ever be treated as “Western”
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lmao
Clemente: “I’m in the club too amigos!!”
Cletus: cocks shotgun
this is pretty much how that goes
No we recognize racism exists and are pointing it out to you. You are in denial
thousands of people who look like you, who were US citizens, were illegally deported to Mexico by US police. This would never happen to an indigenous inhabitant of an actual Western country, even if they were here illegally. Illegal immigrants from Poland don’t get questioned on the street, while LEGAL US CITIZENS OF MEXICAN DESCENT get illegally deported: does that sound like people who are part of the same bloc to you?
I personally know light skinned US-born Indians, who would “pass” as any Latino ethnicity, perfect US-American accent, who were killed in broad daylight in the rural areas of Missouri and the police purposely ignored it
You are just not western and you never will be. You seem obsessed with being considered part of the west, but the reality is that you just aren’t.
Nobody here is obsessed with race, our enemies are obsessed with race (and they know better than to admit it in public). So we learn quickly
As a European I can tell you that Croatia is not considered part of Europe proper. Its where we go for vacations and cheap booze.
It doesn’t matter that they’re white and Christian. They’re Slavic or Balkan which means they’re not “european” in the common conception.
Same goes for Slovenia.
The Czech kind of get an on/off perception of wether or not they’re European. The Czechs are mad about this, since they are very obviously “culturally” european, however they’re also an old east block country, which makes them slabs, which means they cannot possibly be real europeans.
Why does the US consider everything south of it its “backyard” and not Canada? I promise you the average American doesn’t think of some white German descendent when you talk about South America unless it’s Argentina
the monroe doctrine definitely included canada after it stopped being a UK colony. and what does americans thinking latin america being full of germans have to do with anything?
also if you’re looking for “Germanic” looking people in Argentina you’ll be pretty disappointed. They’re basically 30% Native (Mapuche, Toba, and Guarani) and 70% Southern European (Spanish Italian)
Doesn’t matter, that’s not what people in America or Europe think and they don’t consider them in the club. The “collective west” and the “global north” and the “first world” are racist clubs filled with white people and nobody in those groups consider Latin America part of it
that’s not what people in the US think, perhaps, but you’ll be surprised to learn europe is a fairly diverse place with a range of opinions
I’m talking about the media classes and elite and rulers who use the terms. When they say “first world” they are not talking about a single country south of Texas
uh no? It’s entirely the common people in the west too.
the average white westerner uses “North America” as a term that excludes Mexico, for god sake. Yes, whites are literally retconning the geographic term “North America” to constitute an ethnoracial zone which excludes Mexico, in the same way that they retconned the terms “Caucasian” “Indian” “continent” “Aryan” and many more, all of which had actual rigorous definitions but now literally just mean “white people”
any Latino who thinks they’re “western” in any sense other than cardinal directions is beyond me, they’ve literally been doing this shit for 300 years kek
I agree with you. This user was being a pedant so I went with the most airtight argument and just accused western elites of being white supremacists instead of the majority of westerners as it’s easier to prove
media classes and elite in what country and language? different countries and different languages have different media and different terms. also first world is different from western
If it isn’t in English, German or French then it’s not First World it’s just Sparkling Collective West
It doesn’t matter, almost everyone in Europe speaks fluent American English, and in 20 years’ time you can remove the “almost”
European American culture influences Europeans 100x more than vice versa. Most Americans can’t name anything about modern European mindsets or politics. Most Europeans know everything about America’s dirty laundry and social culture.
not really
https://i.postimg.cc/MWGZ93zF/image.png
Almost every European country would not be willing to help Colombia if it had a major crisis.
The only Euro country majorly willing to help was Spain, which makes some sense considering the entire continent is partial descendants of them.
But even then, Spain was less willing to help Colombia than it would other Southern European and even Northern European countries which are MUCH richer than Colombia.
Since Colombia is a Latin American country which was recently loosely allied with the West, doesn’t have any major geopolitical disputes with them (unlike Cuba Bolivia Venezuela), and also since it’s a very solidly “Mestizo” country (unlike Bolivia Peru) it is a very good proxy for basically any Latin American nation. Their opinion on Colombia, basically, is “as good as it gets” for Latin American countries.
You are not white and never will be, and the honest and emotional conception of the term “Western” is entirely based on race and collective racial interests of white people. Russia isn’t in it because Russia wants more stuff at the expense of other Whites. Latin American countries aren’t in it because they’re not white.
I’m not sure why so much of the rest-of-the-world outside the West is delusional about this. Maybe they’re projecting their natural goodwill onto white people lmao? Or maybe they’re so ridiculously prideful that they’re allergic to seeing themselves as an “oppressed group” that they’ll deny the most basic evidence of reality in order to boost their ego?
Some of those results are very funny and interesting. Italy having a specific grudge against Germany that isnt even remotely mutual is my favorite. Followed by Spain being willing to help everyone, except the UK
You’ll be surprised to know that people in Europe don’t even consider most of Europe “western” and most definitely not middle or south America.
It’s not about religion or culture really. Sweden and France doesn’t have a lot in common, but they’re both “the west”. Poland isn’t though. Spain just barely qualifies.
Are you being some kind of weird nazi pick-me, or are you just severely misinformed?
The average person in Mexico, Central America, Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Peru, Chile, Bolivia, and like 75% of Brazil just doesn’t pass as a white person here in the US.
that’s like 90% of Latin America or 75% of South America. They’re not white, they’re admixed with Europeans. Just like Black Americans are.
I know a lot of you think you’re white because you’re lighter skinned than black people. Arabs and lighter skinned Indians also think that a lot of the time. They’re not. Almost everyone in Northern Europe and Anglo America can tell the difference
and tbh even Argentinians don’t really look that white to me on average.
Also, South America is FAR poorer than Croatia. Latter is $17k GDP per head. Average South American GDP is $10k according to stats, but these don’t weight for population so small rich countries like Chile and Uruguay make it falsely larger. South America is dominated by Brazil whose GDP is $7k per head, so yea Latin American avg GDP/capita is something like $9,000 if we’re being very optimistic.
And like somebody already said, Croatia itself is the periphery of the west
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We’re not “obsessed with race”, we’re just aware that the rightists who invented the social construct that is “the west” and talk about it all the time are. They’re white supremacists. And “the west” is a white supremacist construct. Being aware of that is a good thing. I dont understand what your disconnect is.
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Youre being so pendantic for no reason. Its widely understood that the modern concept of “the west” is a white supremacist concept. Regardless of origina. Thats how they justify things like America and Canada “belonging to white people”. Thats how they justify all sorts of imperialist actions (the west civilizing the barbarians).
I can assure you that the vast majority of people in the world, and probably the united states, are not as clued up about white supremacist phraseology as you and when they hear the term western culture don’t immediately start to think of roman salutes and blood quantum
This is delusional. “The West” in modern sense is white supremacist. If you deny this you have internalized white supremacy
Look, neither you or I get to define what “the West” means. It is a racist concept, but that’s the unfortunate reality of the situation. “The West” is not defined by who thinks they should belong to it, it’s defined by the material reality of exploitation. It’s nearly synonymous with “Imperial Core.” If you’re in the periphery, you are not part of “The West” no matter how much your society mirrors so-called western culture. Just as a regular worker is not part of the bourgeoisie no matter how much they want to be. There are the exploiters and the exploited. Latam, on the global stage, is exploited by the imperial core and there is no escaping that fact. The exploiters will never see it as part of their club because they’re exploiting it! It’s not like we (hexbears or leftists in general) see this as a good thing or want to perpetuate it. We want to tear it the fuck down. But we can’t deny material reality, and it seems like that’s what you’re trying to do by insisting that Latam is western and getting mad at us for the fact that it’s largely racism that determines who belongs to the in-group “Western” and who doesn’t.
it’s a majority protestant country that speaks spanish. you think it has more in common with east asia or muslim countries or something?
Well, the Philippines is a majority Christian country that speaks English.
For another example, Zambia is a majority Christian country that speaks English.
The “West” is an overwhelmingly racist concept that produces bizarre things like the categorisation of countries in South America as not being western despite for example Uruguay or Argentina having a majority of people with predominantly European ancestors
the phillipines speaks over 100 malayo-polynessian languages and zambia speaks a similar number of bantu languages. neither of them speak english as a primary language nor do they have the same connection to the west that latin america does
Nah, they speak lots of English there. Being colonized they do have rather similar relations
they speak lots of english in vietnam doesn’t make vietnam western. and there are different types and styles of colonization and imperialism it’s not just a one mode thing
a ton of Black Americans also have predominantly European ancestors, I guess racism is solved since they’re all “western” right?
You can cope or bloviate all you want about this stuff, but real white people know the score and are playing the game. If you’re pale with at least brown hair and have an American accent then sure, you pass regardless of what your ancestry is
The “West” is and HAS to be a racial concept, because if it weren’t basically half if not the majority of the world could be considered Western and the term would just be meaningless. The racial concept is also in accordance with how westerners (actual ones) act.
Yes, we are agreeing.
I think this is supposed to be directed to the other person who seemingly cannot accept that Honduras is not part of the “West”.
I was disagreeing with this part of yours:
This is not bizarre at all.
Uruguay and Argentina are exceptions. The average person in most South American countries save Uruguay, Argentina, and southern Brazil have close to 50% Euro admixture. In some countries like Peru, Bolivia, and others, it’s lower than 25%. And in some of those countries they still speak Native American languages in significant parts.
This Euro admixture comes entirely from southern Europe. Italian Americans were discriminated well into the 1990s (possibly even now), while Irish Americans lost their stigma in the 1930s. Looks matter. And South Americans’ European ancestry comes from an already visibly darker population (Spanish rather than Germans/Anglos)
,
Also: Europeans have predominantly Middle Eastern ancestors. They’re literally 60% Middle Eastern by blood (on average–it’s closer to 80% in Southern Europe). However, they got extra depigmented due to dark climates and mixture with northern aboriginals. Guess what? They look different, so they are able to do racism based on these physical differences. Hence, European and Middle Eastern are different blocs, despite the former being majority derived from the latter.
Guess who also looks different from Europeans? Every single Latino population, yes even the Argentinians. Despite them being derived from Europeans, they are not European. It is visually obvious that they are not European, even if they are majority European DNA. And so racism can be done to them. And so they cannot ever be considered part of the same bloc.
And yes, there are technically “white Argentinians”, this is irrelevant. Only 30% of Argentinians (I’m spitballing here) look unnoticable from a US white person to me.
I agree with you as a Guatemalan. I’ve always considered our countries part of the West and think it’s a little patronizing how richer Western nations don’t consider us Western. The diaspora like to push this idea that we’re majority indigenous and that indigenous cultures are more prevalent than they actually are.
We’re kind of like the Balkans. They go on and off as to whether or not we’re included as Western or not.
Don’t you think that if your people are treated as second-class citizens in core Western countries, that you might actually NOT be Western in the eyes of anyone who actually cares about these terms?
Like, why can’t you take the hint? Or have you really not figured it out yet?
The patronization is right on cue
How is observing reality patronizing? Why do you be want to considered “Western” so bad? Why can’t you just be happy being Latin American?
person a: “you’re dumb”
person b: “wow I’ve always noticed that my friend is so patronizing to me?”
person c: “uh maybe they’re not actually your friend then”
person b: “wow your patronization is right on cue”
You are person b. I am c.
It is patronizing when you consider agreeing with your position to be
Like yeah, thanks buddy, I’ll go with our Honduran comrade in trying to remind Hexbear that latin american people should be taken as having their own thoughts and motivations
You’re free to have whatever thoughts you want, just don’t expect to be treated like an actual Westerner when you enter an actual Western country
*unless you’re really pale and can speak with an American accent. Then you will be!
I’m palestinian honduran so I wouldn’t even bother trying to argue with the few people I’d run into that seriously consider race what makes someone western. I still don’t see why it matters so much to american leftists tho. is bashing on the west too awkward for them if you include poorer countries in the americas and balkans? I don’t get the point in bashing anyway I’m not gonna feel guilty for being born in the west
Leftists have already figured out the difference between these regions, if you’re curious. The Balkans are peripheral Europe. https://hexbear.net/post/1385667
Western can be a misnomer like global south. Half the time when I say NATO I’m mentally including Japan and Australia and occupied Korea. Japan and occupied Korea are pretty damn Western now depending on how you mean that.
Yeah, real difference in vocabulary vibes on this exchange
those “few people”, aka the entirety of the population who actually cares about this shit lmao. Including the cunning ones who pretend to consider you guys “western” just for optics, and then support every standard right-wing American position
Nobody considers Christian, Portugese-speaking Angola to be “Western”. Race is literally half the criteria.
uhhh…because it matters to american rightists? If you spent a few months in America in a rural area with an Islamic name I think you’d learn pretty quick
“Western” = politically western European, and white
Russia isn’t politically western so they don’t fit
Poland used to not be western, but now is
Parts of the Balkans are part of the west (certainly not in the core though)
Japan and Korea are rich and vassal states of NATO, but are not white
America is technically mixed race, but the average white American is 98.5% white (and western european to boot), unlike any “white” person in any Latin country where even the least mixed people are still 20% Native admixed
Nothing in Latin America is Western in any sense other than cardinal directions. Yes, you’re all Christian and part Spanish/Portu, but any “camaraderie” you see there is a completely one-way street–the people in Europe do NOT feel that way mutually about you, even if they don’t get as violent about it as in the US. You could MAYBE make an exception for Argentina and Uruguay because it seems a lot of them (still not all) are close enough on racial criteria to “pass” visually. Places like Mexico and Colombia will never be western, because you can’t be part of a group if your people get hatecrimed on sight (with no repercussions) in said countries .
i’ve been to rural america with an “islamic name” lol. you people are crazy
apparently not for long enough?
there’s some Indian American kid (same skin tone as the average Colombian or Peruvian) who got put in a chokehold at his school in Texas and then suspended for 3 days while his bully got 1 day (no he didn’t even fight back)
this happened in suburban Texas btw, I know people whose friends have been killed in rural areas of the plains states.
They don’t consider you part of their racist white supremacist club, that’s a fact. Why do you want to be in it so bad and consider it offensive when they don’t include you? It should be an honor to be separate from the West, the West TM is fascist scum
No, I think Latin America has more in common with itself. Tons of countries in Asia and Africa (basically every country) has significant and sometimes complete fluency in a European language, and are Christian, but not considered Western.
Not to mention that many Latin American countries and subregions have huge cultural influences from regional Native American cultures and enslaved Africans
Latin America has never received economic benefits from the Western umbrella in the way that the EU states have. And they probably never will, and their racial origin is the most major reason for this. They are not Western.
Latin America has been westernized by continuous economical, cultural, and imperialist influence by the United States (and other global north countries), it doesn’t make sense to think of our countries as some non-Western society, it’s inaccurate and a bad framework to try to change our life. Our religions have been westernized, our mode of production is capitalism, our cultural references are western cultural products, our music is dependent on western notions of what is “good” music. The products that we buy and we sell, that we most value are influenced by westernized perceptions of value.
Yes, there are bubbles, territories, regions, where this is not true, maybe even glimpses in everyday life, but it’s not the case for the vast majority of people living in Latin America. We may not be part of the west in a historical sense, but we are westernized countries living in the world that the West has created for us with violence.
I’m going to paste what I said in another comment replying to another user just because it mostly applies here too.
Look, neither you or I get to define what “the West” means. It is a racist concept, but that’s the unfortunate reality of the situation. “The West” is not defined by who thinks they should belong to it, it’s defined by the material reality of exploitation. It’s nearly synonymous with “Imperial Core.” If you’re in the periphery, you are not part of “The West” no matter how much your society mirrors so-called western culture. Just as a regular worker is not part of the bourgeoisie no matter how much they want to be. There are the exploiters and the exploited. Latam, on the global stage, is exploited by the imperial core and there is no escaping that fact. The exploiters will never see it as part of their club because they’re exploiting it! It’s not like we (hexbears or leftists in general) see this as a good thing or want to perpetuate it. We want to tear it the fuck down. But we can’t deny material reality, and it seems like that’s what you’re trying to do by insisting that Latam is western and getting mad at us for the fact that it’s largely racism that determines who belongs to the in-group “Western” and who doesn’t.
Absolutely. So you do see it is “The West” that unfortunately gets to define who belongs in the club, and it does so via violence. The West has violently created the world you live in, but that does not make the world you live in part of it, no matter how many people around you mistakenly think it does.
If it has been “westernized” then you are basically admitting right there it is not the west.
Yes, much of the world has been colonized and injected with white supremacist ideology, ie “westernized”. That doesn’t make much of the world “The West”
wrong, it’s the UTMOST FUNDAMENTAL basis upon which to change your lives
if Latinos can’t even agree that they are their own bloc, then how do you expect change to ever occur? Imagine if China was 20 different countries, with squabbles about the North being “uhhh totally Mongol/Russian acktschyually” do you think they would have ended up better or worse materially? Obviously a lot worse!
why is India doing better than Nepal Pakistan Sri Lanka etc? Why do they have 300 nukes and a space program?
Because it’s a union of smaller countries like Punjab Tamil Nadu Kerala and etc. India is still bad, but if there were a communist revolution there, there’s nothing the West could do! While in a small country like Niger or Kenya, they can just overthrow it easily!
and if the Indian nation-states (meaning Punjab and Kerala and Maharashtra and Assam) can unite, there’s no reason that Latin American countries can’t do so. The Indian ones have 4-10k years of uninterrupted history and ethnic differentiation, so I think a continent where everybody already speaks Spanish and Portuguese can manage the same thing
This is a conflation of different uses of the term western. There’s cultural, economic, and geographic definitions for it, etc.
Also: if an average person from your bloc can get hatecrimed on sight in another country with no repercussions then guess what? that country is not a part of your bloc! Neither geopolitically NOR ethnoculturally! basic logic!
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According to US policy more like the middle east yeah.