Beeper reverse-engineered iMessage to bring blue bubble texts to Android users::The push to bring iMessage to Android users today adds a new contender. A startup called Beeper, which had been working on a multi-platform messaging
i had no idea that having green chat bubbles upset people so much.
I’ve seen a lot of people complain online about getting dropped by a tinder date/etc because they swapped numbers and the other person realized they didn’t have an iPhone from the green text. Probably best not to date someone who would drop you over that, but there’s a weird elitism over blue/green texts.
Attempting to get a date in the current US scene was hard enough without this petty bullshit. While it was certainly disheartening to see another one slip away, knowing I was dodging a bullet was worth the time. I did enjoy (only once) getting “ugh green bubbles? Srs?” And sliding back “yeah sorry I have a Fold#, iPhones r for brokies” and blocking the contact
(People are free to own iPhone and you’re free to make your own descicions or debate the merits of android/iphone, I am more just intolerant of the fan elitism - not iPhone owners in general, hope you have a nice day)
Weird, is that an excursively US American thing? I am European and have never experienced “phone racism”.
It has started in Sweden with younger generations that wants to replicate everything from the US.
Don’t you guys use WhatsApp though as the base messaging app?
Swedes don’t use whatsapp. Mostly Facebook messenger or sms/imessage.
I’ve never heard of that, that’s kinda hilarious and really helps them dodge a bullet.
Apple has spent a significant amount of effort over creating a sense of elitism for using its products but that’s largely unique to the western world. Most of the world uses android devices by far.
In the US, every millenial is a communist until a green bubble shows up in the group chat… then the poverty jokes commence
Millennials are pushing 40
Oof, that hurts.
gen z*
Dumb kids are always dumb. And cruel.
I think they’re hated because they’re synonymous with broken group chats and low res photos. Hopefully EU forcing rss adoption fixes these instead of having to download an app to ‘fit in’.
why should the EU have anything to do with who “fits in”? maybe i misunderstood what you’re saying here…
EU implements legislation forcing Android + Apple to use standards that actually work properly with each other. (they usually spearhead this type of change)
People using android no longer break group chats or have terrible sent image/video quality when messaging Iphone users.
With this ammunition gone, teens stop using it to attack each other for their familys (lack of) income. Ie those kids ‘fit in’ better.
Oh, OK. I did misunderstand what was being said. Thank you for clarifying.
I’d say it’s people using Apple that break group chats, since Apple doesn’t utilize SMS/MMS correctly.
Not Android’s fault that Apple butchers MMS quality.
Though carriers have some culpability here, even if a carrier allowed higher quality MMS (Verizon), iPhone still wouldn’t use that capability, while Android can if configured to do so.
Thats a fair argument; though in this context it’s more about how the teens causing social issues perceive it.
It’s not the Iphone users getting picked on in schools.
People are dumb af
Doesn’t bother me at all.
The issue isn’t so much the message color. It’s the ability to send videos that aren’t potato quality and other media.
It’s all the other features in iMessage that android users “ruin” in group chats. Things like read receipts, typing indicators, reactions, animated/spoiler text messages, sending media in full quality, etc… A single android user is enough to downgrade an entire group chat, so apple users tend to be a little bit resentful.
It’d be a little bit like if one person on a Discord server disabled all the fun parts of Discord, and it killed the functionality for everyone on that server. Now nobody in the server can add fun little reactions to messages, or start threads, or send embedded gifs. All because that one person decided they didn’t like it.
All because that one person decided they didn’t like it.
More like “all because Discord decided to remove those things from anyone not using Windows”
Nothing in this scenario is in the users hands, it’s all Apple, what any given user likes or want makes no difference.
This shit seems like a perfect target for an antitrust suit, no?
Apple, Google, and Microsoft commit antitrust violations too fast and numerous for the legal systems to keep up.
That and they spy on consumers for the US government so that gives them free passes at a lot of things.
I’m absolutely blown away by the number of people who actually think this is about bubble colors…
Well it is because that bubble color on Apple means issues for people on Apple devices.
I have millenial family members, they hear it from their peers. Probably even worse in younger folks.
This is a good video explaining things, for anyone who doesn’t know about the situation Apple created.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=BuaKzm7Kq9Q
Alternative 🔗:
https://yewtu.be/watch?v=BuaKzm7Kq9Q
https://piped.video/watch?v=BuaKzm7Kq9Q
It’s not just about the color of the bubbles. I have Wi-Fi at work but poor cell signal. Because I have an iPhone and my husband has an android, we have to use another chat client to text while I’m at work. No cell signal means no texting android phones for me, because I can only text people with iMessage over Wi-Fi.
Plus, remember: kids have phones. They do get bullied over chat bubble colors, just like I got bullied for wearing clothes from Walmart in school. It doesn’t have to be this way, it’s Apple’s fault for making iMessage a walled garden.
Is it even a garden though? I don’t see any benefit in using it over something like Signal other than it coming pre-installed on your phone.
Sure, but they wont. The insidious thing about iMessenger is that it isnt iChat. It is the apple default text messaging app. Which is good because it means that all your messages are in one place, and you dont have to try to convince your older family member to install a 3rd party chat app. You just have a chat app. This tricks users not into thinking that texting is just better on apple.
But its bad because it only works between other apple products and users. This is objectively Apple’s shortcoming, however there are enough iPhones in the wild and enough people in the US who defaulted to just hitting the sms/mms icon instead of downloading a chat app that the odd man out might be the android user. And it’s not just about the green bubble being green. If you invite an a green bubble to a group text then all your rich chat messenger features go away and it turns into an MMS thread. Which is objectively bad.
But yes they could just download and use whatsapp,line, telegram, signal, facebook messenger(and in the early days things like aim/yim/msn) But they dont. The fact is their default messenger app works, and it works well with most people they talk to so the problem is the green text.
It’s especially silly when you consider the “there’s an app for that” generation of user and so many things are apps but they refuse to engage on other chat channels. People download different apps to get dates, the navigate, to browse websites that shouldnt even be apps, to order food, order groceries, order taxi’s, but a chat app just to talk with you? ehhhhhhhhh.
You know honestly, now that I’ve typed that I’m not sure. I don’t do a lot of texting audio snippets or other stuff other people do, so maybe, maybe not.
The problem is, I should be able to text people at default without worrying I have cell signal or if group chats are going to work correctly, instead of needing to ask people what 3rd party chat service they prefer.
In some cases you can manually select the type of service on your phone. Try changing your phone manually to 3g and see if that helps. I find it works well in areas where I have poor LTE/5G coverage.
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They should add login and subscription handling on their website as well like so many do, with 30% off on the subscription fee because there’d be no Google tax.
Is it just you can’t pay for the subscription or the notification process (MicroG GCM) doesn’t work?
Looks like both. Beeper mini (and a lot of other apps) ask the play store if the user paid for the app, which is a heavily pretexts part of goggles services… so using non-Google services means I can’t sign into beeper mini at all. They can’t prove I paid for it, especially since I don’t have a Google account at all.
Oh, so no Google account. Yea, looks like Beeper Mini relies on GCM, so without an account there’s no way to notify you that messages are to be retrieved.
I was really wondering if the issue was MicroG.
Hopefully the devs will be willing to work on using a notification process outside of GCM, even if that means polling by Beeper, once they get to a level of stability.
Though I think they’ll likely work on integrating other messengers first.
Well I do have GCM, it’s how all my other apps are able to work, even pokemon etc.
I think it’s purely that beeper is relying on Google authenicating that I paid for the app. Could there be a cracked apk? Probably, but I’m not willing to risk using that.
What OS are you on?
CalyxOS, which uses microG.
Assuming that it’s actually reverse engineered, this is great news. If not, there’s a massive lawsuit brewing.
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They did for Beeper Mini but not for the original Beeper (now called Beeper Cloud) which uses Mac’s as a server.
Seems like Beeper will see the cleartext of the replies, though, since they send the notifications via BPNs, right?
[edit: thanks for the replies. I see now the footnote on their BPNs diagram: “Push notification does not contain message contents” so it seems like the answer is “no they will not”]
No, they know that a message has been received, but the phone is what decrypts the message. Beeper can’t see it.
No, with this new app messages are encrypted between you and Apple’s iMessage servers using iMessage encryption more or less the same way an iPhone does.
The push service simply notifies your device it has a message waiting, no message content passes through Beeper servers.
I don’t know for sure, but often mobile notification protocols are more like “wake up and check your incoming messages” than “user foo says bar”. If this is true then the best they could do is collect timestamps of when you probably received messages.
It still needs Apple’s servers, which tells me they will try and find a way to shut it down. Now that Apple is going to implement RCS, I care a lot less about this.
What exactly do you mean with it requiring Apple’s servers? All of the services Beeper integrates with require it to communicate with the servers those services belong to.
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I don’t, I want modern messaging features like typing indicators, read receipts, and videos that have more than 10 pixels total
I really want to sign up for Beeper, but the fact I have to give them my phone number to sign up for a waitlist seemed like a red flag. How is their security profile?
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By that logic, there’s nothing guaranteeing iMessage on iPhones is secure or private either because it’s closed source. If you don’t want to trust Beeper mini, you’ll be free to run their iMessage bridge on your own Matrix stack when they open source it at some point, which they’re promising to do (and you still won’t know that Apple isn’t scraping your messages on the iOS side). When I decide to trust a company, it’s because I look at what they’re transparently communicating to their end users. Every indication is that they are trying to get out of the middle of handling encrypted messages. Their first move to make this happen was allowing people to self host their own Beeper bridges (which you can still do with Beeper Cloud if you prefer and you will know that your messages are always encrypted within the Beeper infrastructure). They aren’t going to release the source for their client ever because that’s the only way they make any money.
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You should read the docs. It’s impressive.
I get where you’re coming from, but after readinhow badly security is implemented in iMessage frankly I trust the Beeper devs more than Apple.
Get this, iMessage delivers the AES encrypted message in a package with the AES key, that package is encrypted with your RSA key.
iMessage lacks forward secrecy. So if anyone ever got your RSA key, they could read all your messages, including past messages, because your RSA key never changes!
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I assume you’re not using iMessage anyway then because Apple’s Messages stack isn’t open source. If you’re not using iMessage anyway, it shouldn’t matter to you what Beeper Mini is doing. This app isn’t for the ultra paranoid. Neither is Google’s RCS in Google Messages. This is where Signal and Matrix would be better choices. If you are using iMessage on an Apple device, you’re choosing to trust Apple despite their app being closed source and you’re not choosing to trust Beeper, which is fine and I don’t judge you at all for that stance. But at that point, your qualms aren’t simply about Beeper Mini being closed source, the implication is that you don’t trust Beeper as a company and/or its developers which, again, is a valid stance even if it’s one I don’t share.
But I am personally pretty sure I can trust Beeper and Apple enough with my relatively meaningless conversations.
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They do have to run servers in order to keep the service alive. If you want to run this stuff yourself on your own server that’s possible using PyPush. The reason they have to run those servers for you is to keep the notification service alive.
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Yeah, sorry, I got confused. Beeper mini does need servers to keep the notification service alive. And thus not crazy to ask for 2$ a month. Beeper cloud could indeed do without servers I guess, but I don’t know anything about that. I was just keeping up with the development of pypush (the python poc) and reverse engineering progress.
I don’t understand your point of “you have to log in with a google account”. I understood that was a requirement to check subscription status (and as such limit fraudulent apk’s).
But that seems to be a different story than “opensourcing this would mean a competitor could do it for free”.
You can already do this for free with pypush. And if you want to use something else then python you could build something based on it with any language as pypush is completely open source.
Your Google account is required because it uses GCM for notifications on the phone. The Mini servers act as a middleman between GCM and ANP (Apples background notification protocol).
They talk about this in the docs, they didn’t think it was realistic to try to reproduce ANP on Android, besides Android already has a service.
Notice how in the article they say “we’re not the middle man… Any more”? That’s because, up until now, Beeper has been working on a system where they operate as a middle man for your data.
To be fair they never claimed otherwise and all of the code for the bridges are open-sourced and can be run on your own servers so that those servers you control (as opposed to Beeper-owned servers) act as a “middle man” and none of your messages need be trusted to a 3rd party.
To put it simply: only the actual bridge on Beeper Cloud has access to unencrypted messages and you do have the option to run the bridge yourself while continuing to use the Beeper app. You can use as many or as few self-hosted bridges as you’d like.
A few bridges are preconfigured for self-hosting with just a couple of clicks for free through fly.io here
This post is referring to beeper mini. It’s confusing naming, but that’s not the same as beeper(cloud service). Beeper mini is available to everyone on the play store and is not a cloud service. You just get it, login to Google (to pay the subscription cost) and it works. No invite needed
Want a invite code? Its just to prevent people from mass signing up
@Merlin404@lemmy.world
Yes please, I would love an invite code
@Merlin404@lemmy.world
Can I get a code, please please?
That’s to prevent multiple entries by one person. Their security is very good, with audits and their products being largely open source (for this, PyPush. For Beeper Cloud, their Synapse fork and their bridges.). Only the parts that don’t matter to security (the clients, mostly) are closed source.
Btw will they continue to live as Element changed licences to Synapse and Dendrite projects ?
Yes. They have a fork of Synapse that they can continue to use even if the license prevents them from using upstream (which doesn’t seem true, but I could be wrong).
This is the best summary I could come up with:
What may hold it at bay is the Digital Markets App (DMA), a law in Europe that says big tech companies will have to have an interoperable interface for their chat networks.
In addition, Beeper uses certificate pinning, which makes network traffic analysis more difficult to perform in order to verify its claims.
To work around this limitation, the team built BPNs to connect to Apple’s servers on the user’s behalf when the app isn’t running.
When the Android phone’s battery died, however, the texts reverted to green bubbles and did not make it to Beeper’s app — they went to Google Messages instead.
The company is also hoping to gain trust by building in public, with 50-plus projects that it’s published to GitHub with the open source code that goes into the app.
Founded in 2020, Beeper comes from former Y Combinator partner Eric Migicovsky and CTO Brad Murray, previously of wholesale marketplace startup Faire and Fitbit.
The original article contains 1,306 words, the summary contains 158 words. Saved 88%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Are their messages from their app going to show blue to iMessage users or something? Cuz I don’t see why you’d need to reverse engineer that otherwise. Even then… How hard is it to spoof a Mac address or other hardware identifier that says the message came from an iPhone?
The fact this is even an issue is just ridiculous to begin with. If you give that much of a shit: Use a different god damn messenger that treats everyone the same.
afaik, their while thing is that they do everything on-device, so your device is the only one with access to your messages
We literally shut down another app doing this last week because it was so sketchy
The other app was running iMessage on Macs owned by the company and relaying the messages insecurely to its Android app. What we see here is a third-party implementation of the iMessage protocol running on Android devices directly, an example of adversarial interoperability.
The article specifically address this and explained the difference.
No. This is much more impressive, useful, secure, and sustainable because it’s totally different internally.
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In exchange for security loss, is it really worth it?
Edit: the downvotes are very expected. You people need to lean about why this is important
https://www.androidauthority.com/beeper-app-opinion-3345142/
First, the elephant in the room needs to be addressed: security. In Beeper’s start-up guide, the first thing you see is a huge alert box: “Beeper may be less secure than using encrypted chat apps by themselves.” Fundamentally, there’s no way to fix this. To use any of the chat apps, you need to link Beeper to that service using your credentials, which is inherently more insecure than logging into the app directly. Beeper is quick to defend itself by pointing out its robust privacy policy, its ethical business practices with a user-centered focus, and its use of end-to-end encryption (E2EE). However, that doesn’t protect your credentials from hackers that could gain access to Beeper and send your grandma a message through WhatsApp pretending to be you and asking to wire $1,000 to an account in China.
More in depth: https://www.reddit.com/r/beeper/comments/13hhx9e/transient_key_retention_a_suggestion_to_solve/?rdt=61709
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Or read before typing? 😂
What security loss, mate?
These: https://www.androidauthority.com/beeper-app-opinion-3345142/
First, the elephant in the room needs to be addressed: security. In Beeper’s start-up guide, the first thing you see is a huge alert box: “Beeper may be less secure than using encrypted chat apps by themselves.” Fundamentally, there’s no way to fix this. To use any of the chat apps, you need to link Beeper to that service using your credentials, which is inherently more insecure than logging into the app directly. Beeper is quick to defend itself by pointing out its robust privacy policy, its ethical business practices with a user-centered focus, and its use of end-to-end encryption (E2EE). However, that doesn’t protect your credentials from hackers that could gain access to Beeper and send your grandma a message through WhatsApp pretending to be you and asking to wire $1,000 to an account in China.
More in depth: https://www.reddit.com/r/beeper/comments/13hhx9e/transient_key_retention_a_suggestion_to_solve/?rdt=61709
That’s about beeper, not beeper mini. Mini was just launched, that’s older information that only applies to the MITM version (beeper which is now beeper cloud).
Beeper mini talks directly to the services you use, no MITM, which is why they plan on adding more services to mini until it can replace the older Beeper (cloud).
My understanding is that this absolutely applies to their previous iterations, but not this – there’s no authenticating with your Apple ID, for example. It’s sending and receiving iMessage data directly between the Apple servers and your device, now.
