Sounds fair to me, we need less religion everywhere.
What I don’t get is the right wing pushing this and the left wing being against it, while the hero of the far left said ‘Religion is the opium of the masses.’
Islam doesn’t force women to wear the hijab. There’s nothing about it in the Quran.
It’s a cultural thing, and while many women are pressured or even forced to wear it, many others wear it of their own free will.
The state telling women they can’t wear it in their workplace doesn’t solve the issue.
And those women who are forced to wear it are effectively banned from working now, which makes the issue much worse.
I mean yes there is the command to cover yourself in the quran, [24:31] for example (“… And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their chastity, and not to reveal their adornments except what normally appears. Let them draw their veils over their chests, and not reveal their ˹hidden˺ adornment…”).
Still, the idea of women generally being forced to wear it by their family/social circle is wrong.
There is over 14300 years debate material about if this specific order to a time where women were targeted because who the were, or a general islamic rule.
Regardless it is never, telling man what and what not to wear, but always telling women what and what not to wear.
If the really care about Muslims women being forced to wear it, the law should be:
if you force female to wear or not wear anything then you go to prison. Then that would aolve the problem and gave people the freedom to wear or not wear religious symbols.
Ah where did this debate take place with ehich people? AFAIK all 4 sunni schools are unanimous in their intepretation, that people have to cover their bodies.
It is also very much telling men what and what not to wear. The specific body parts that have to be covered differ from school to school, for women and for men, but every muslim scholar says that every human has to cover certain parts of their body from the gaze of other people.
Well this is factually not true as Islamic law prescribes men dress modestly but at least cover themselves from at **least their belly buttons to their knees. ** If the shorts get too short men do get called out for it.
Furthermore you are insinuating that a woman cannot, of her own free will, choose to wear a headscarf. So you the big important male must decide it for her. Which is not very feminist of you.
How many women wearing hijab do you actually know, to come to the conclusion they would all get beaten and forced to wear it?
Because from the women i know none of them is forced to do so. And given that noone is around that could force them, as they are expats and they are exposed to plenty women not wearing hijab, both nin religious and muslim, i am certain that they choose to wear hijab on their own accord.
I bet the male dominated and generally oppressive culture behind it has nothing to do with their willingness, out of their own volition, to decide to wear it.
Next time i’ll see her i’ll ask the researcher with a Phd in physics who lived in western countries since 15 years, if she is too stupid to realize the difference between the village she grew up in and the great European countries were millions of liberators like you are waiting to liberate her by forbidding her to wear a hijab at work.
I know enough women who were forced to wear hijab by their families and most of them nowadays have gotten away from their families and havent spoken to their families in years. Also one of the families tried to lure their daughter to Iran and another family were stopped at the airport after one of the women told border police that she was at the airport against her will.
The free will of women wearing the hijab comes from fear of gOd and social pressure of being impure. No person on its right mind would choose to wear it.
I for sure would prefer if women wouldn’t be forced to wear it. But lets be realistic: banning it doesn’t make things better, only worse. These women won’t stop wearing a hijab, they will just stop going outside. And now you made the situation even worse for them.
Obviously, the ones who view it as a form of repression, would have already not been wearing headgarb in EU. The ones that do probably think different.
After all it’s not as if everyone belonging to one religion is viewing it in the same way.
thats bad, but still not as bad as the government responding with mandates on what women are or are not allowed to wear, nor is this an answer to the problem
like, how do you reckon this is going to pan out? you reckon women who actually are coerced into covering up are going to take it off when they go to public buildings (including schools), or do you reckon the men in their life just wont let them go to public buildings (including schools) anymore?
the right either has not thought about this law or is completely disingenuous about why they support it
The rest of the quote is: “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.” Take from that what you will.
I also don’t know that most people who identify as or are called left wing would call Marx their hero.
Opium is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of the heartless world, the soul of soulless conditions.
The answer to this by you is: Ban opium!
My answer would be: Fight oppression!
The fight is not about drugs, it is about self-determination, dignity, freedom. It is the fight against capitalism. And today the search is on how to prevent the socialist society from turning into an autocracy.
Children have questions, e.g.: Where is grandma now? Until we have a satisfactory answer to this, religion will exist. But in a free world it will no longer be addictive.
And everyone can put on or take off whatever they want. We should start with this immediately.
The problem is that you have to treat religion equally and for a lot of European countries that would mean pushing Christian symbols out of public offices as well. Most Nordic countries, Greece and Malta have crosses on their flags for example. Many countries like Germany have parties, which are explicitly Christian. The Bundeswehr uses the Iron Cross as a symbol, which is in direct heritage from a crusader order.
The problem for those countries is that baning Islamic symbols is very often just racist rethoric to hit Islam, rather then a proper separation of state and religion.
It would be religionist, not racist. Islam is followed by many different races. But I get where you’re coming from. I’m all for getting rid of all the religious symbolism etc.
When the right talk about Islam they aren’t talking about the religion. They have no problem with the Muslims from Kosovo for instance. They are specifically targeting Arabs and Africans.
No, you were the one brought up Arabs and Africans. You are the one stereotyping Arabs and Africans as the only Muslims who wear headscarves just to further your argument.
No one here has issues with Arabs or Africans. Headscarves and crosses are just inappropriate for public sector workplaces as they are supposed to be neutral and unbiased in secular societies.
You’re ignoring the context of why I brought it up. Right wingers who complain about religious hair dresses don’t give a shit about someone wearing a cross on their necklace. They know they can’t go after people because of race so they use Islam as a backdoor.
But I am not a right winger. I believe in a secular society, public administration should be religiously neutral and that means no one gets special privileges. Also I have rarely ever seen muslim Africans wear headscarves aside from Somalis. Usually when I think of headscarves, I think of Turks, Chechens or people from the Arabian Peninsula.
Denmark, Iceland, Greece and Malta have some form of Christianity as their state religion. Norway only separated church from the state in 2017. Finland requires a change of the constitution to change the church law, which gives the local lutheran church special rights. Sweden is secular since 2000, but even today grants the local lutheran church special rights.
The right wing is pushing specifically for the banning of things like the hijab or other religious head coverings usually worn by women. They justify it by saying that these head coverings are a symbol of oppression against women, and have no place in a free society.
Thing is though, how free is a society if it feels it has to dictate what women can and can’t wear?
There have been plenty of efforts and attempts to ban hijabs completely, in different European countries at different times. The debate started probably around the time the first Islamicimmigrants came to Europe.
Because banning something so petty like a hijab is just a dick move which serves no purpose other than cause more tension, if any women is wearing something by her choice, who the fuck are we to judge? Isn’t that the whole point of tolerance and being left wing?
I agree that forcing them is a problem, but a lot of these women themselves complained to the authorities, so i doubt in this particular case they are being forced, and how does outright banning it help the issue? People are forced to work with poor wages, why not ban all jobs?
It’s only banning in the workplace, not an outright ban.
There are plenty of Muslim females I have worked with who never wore a hijab in or outside of work, so if it’s no issue for them, why should it be an issue for these women?
How does it help the issue though, I have no idea.
I think you are missing my point here or yourself are confused, wearing a hijab these days in a modern society is very likely a choice, if a muslim women choses not to, it’s her decision
But banning it and calling it a religious symbol on top of that is a clear statement that they don’t support a personal harmless decision of an individual BECAUSE they follow a religion, and that in my opinion is just racism
And even a slightly controversial take of mine is that we shouldn’t really ban religious symbols either as long as they are not harmful, why would any sane person care if they see a women with a hijab or a burka? Or a person wearing a cross? No one unless they just don’t like anyone whose beliefs or ideology or opinion don’t match with them. The only thing these kinds of laws will do is potentially radicalize more people
The thing is we can’t bring all of humanity on an agreement on even a small issue, let alone something as complex as religion, however what we could do is try to set apart our differences and focus on the overall good for us. This law however is just a step in the opposite direction
It’s only banning in the workplace, not an outright ban.
Well, it’s a first step, isn’t it? The more Europeans don’t give a shit about freedom and democracy, the more we vote for rightwing extremists, the more we will be ready to put a crescent on the clothing of Muslims, don’t you think so.
Who would fight for their freedom, you?
so if it’s no issue for them, why should it be an issue for these women?
Because women are individuals, even Muslim women, who would have thought.
And we’re living in a culture that celebrates itself for protecting the freedom and the rights of the individuals.
And who are you to tell what’s other people choices and what not. That’s unbelievably arrogant.
Wearing jeans (or any other iconic piece of clothing) isn’t your choice, it’s just normal where you grew up. You just adapted to the culture you live in. You’re just a conformist. Or a ‘Spießer’ as we say in German.
And this probably isn’t limited to dress codes. How about ideas, ideologies, worldviews different from yours?
If Muslim women no longer wore headscarves because they weren’t allowed to, how would you recognize the oppressed people you want to “liberate”.
See, now I know you either just didn’t read it or didn’t understand. It applies to all religious symbols, not just a hijab. Can you argue it’s unfair to non western religions like the above commenters? Yes and probably should. But what you said is wrong. They are not “banning something so petty like the hijab”.
There’s a rather considerable current of leftism that is libertarian. Over-regulation of what a person can do, especially with something as, well, personal as appearance, is at odds with left-libertarian values.
Left-authoritarianism is of course compatible with such regulations.
Sounds fair to me, we need less religion everywhere.
What I don’t get is the right wing pushing this and the left wing being against it, while the hero of the far left said ‘Religion is the opium of the masses.’
The left is generally against legislating what women are allowed to wear.
Then wouldn’t they be against Islam forcing women to wear the hijab??
Islam doesn’t force women to wear the hijab. There’s nothing about it in the Quran.
It’s a cultural thing, and while many women are pressured or even forced to wear it, many others wear it of their own free will.
The state telling women they can’t wear it in their workplace doesn’t solve the issue.
And those women who are forced to wear it are effectively banned from working now, which makes the issue much worse.
The “culture” is religious though, like we can’t pretend it’s a social thing, absent religious doctrine.
I mean yes there is the command to cover yourself in the quran, [24:31] for example (“… And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their chastity, and not to reveal their adornments except what normally appears. Let them draw their veils over their chests, and not reveal their ˹hidden˺ adornment…”).
Still, the idea of women generally being forced to wear it by their family/social circle is wrong.
There is over 14300 years debate material about if this specific order to a time where women were targeted because who the were, or a general islamic rule.
Regardless it is never, telling man what and what not to wear, but always telling women what and what not to wear.
If the really care about Muslims women being forced to wear it, the law should be:
Ah where did this debate take place with ehich people? AFAIK all 4 sunni schools are unanimous in their intepretation, that people have to cover their bodies.
It is also very much telling men what and what not to wear. The specific body parts that have to be covered differ from school to school, for women and for men, but every muslim scholar says that every human has to cover certain parts of their body from the gaze of other people.
Well this is factually not true as Islamic law prescribes men dress modestly but at least cover themselves from at **least their belly buttons to their knees. ** If the shorts get too short men do get called out for it.
Furthermore you are insinuating that a woman cannot, of her own free will, choose to wear a headscarf. So you the big important male must decide it for her. Which is not very feminist of you.
Yeah if you don’t wear it you get beaten… Totally not forced.
How many women wearing hijab do you actually know, to come to the conclusion they would all get beaten and forced to wear it?
Because from the women i know none of them is forced to do so. And given that noone is around that could force them, as they are expats and they are exposed to plenty women not wearing hijab, both nin religious and muslim, i am certain that they choose to wear hijab on their own accord.
I bet the male dominated and generally oppressive culture behind it has nothing to do with their willingness, out of their own volition, to decide to wear it.
Nothing at all.
Next time i’ll see her i’ll ask the researcher with a Phd in physics who lived in western countries since 15 years, if she is too stupid to realize the difference between the village she grew up in and the great European countries were millions of liberators like you are waiting to liberate her by forbidding her to wear a hijab at work.
You do that
I know enough women who were forced to wear hijab by their families and most of them nowadays have gotten away from their families and havent spoken to their families in years. Also one of the families tried to lure their daughter to Iran and another family were stopped at the airport after one of the women told border police that she was at the airport against her will.
A lot of women are totally forced to wear hijab.
The free will of women wearing the hijab comes from fear of gOd and social pressure of being impure. No person on its right mind would choose to wear it.
I for sure would prefer if women wouldn’t be forced to wear it. But lets be realistic: banning it doesn’t make things better, only worse. These women won’t stop wearing a hijab, they will just stop going outside. And now you made the situation even worse for them.
A group of iranian college students visited my town in the summer.
None of the girls used any sort of head cover and at some that came as a topic.
Even in Iran, as much as they can, every woman goes without it, unless the religious police is somewhere nearby.
The general, widespread view is that it is a form of repression and nothing else, yet their government/religious authority enforces it.
Although unpopular and understood as fascist, these decisions in european countries echoe impositions islamic countries make to foreigners.
Obviously, the ones who view it as a form of repression, would have already not been wearing headgarb in EU. The ones that do probably think different.
After all it’s not as if everyone belonging to one religion is viewing it in the same way.
I’m not going to even step into that debate.
They seem to be somewhat in denial about it. Which is quite sad
I think it would be hard to find a leftist who is not supporting the struggle of Iranians against being forced by law to wear a hijab.
And equally we are against Western governments forcing women to not wear a hijab.
Forcing people is the wrong doing. Easy to understand, isn’t it?
thats bad, but still not as bad as the government responding with mandates on what women are or are not allowed to wear, nor is this an answer to the problem
like, how do you reckon this is going to pan out? you reckon women who actually are coerced into covering up are going to take it off when they go to public buildings (including schools), or do you reckon the men in their life just wont let them go to public buildings (including schools) anymore?
the right either has not thought about this law or is completely disingenuous about why they support it
Are they ever ingenuous?
This one is the most likely outcome.
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The rest of the quote is: “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.” Take from that what you will.
I also don’t know that most people who identify as or are called left wing would call Marx their hero.
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Opium is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of the heartless world, the soul of soulless conditions.
The answer to this by you is: Ban opium!
My answer would be: Fight oppression!
The fight is not about drugs, it is about self-determination, dignity, freedom. It is the fight against capitalism. And today the search is on how to prevent the socialist society from turning into an autocracy.
Children have questions, e.g.: Where is grandma now? Until we have a satisfactory answer to this, religion will exist. But in a free world it will no longer be addictive.
And everyone can put on or take off whatever they want. We should start with this immediately.
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The problem is that you have to treat religion equally and for a lot of European countries that would mean pushing Christian symbols out of public offices as well. Most Nordic countries, Greece and Malta have crosses on their flags for example. Many countries like Germany have parties, which are explicitly Christian. The Bundeswehr uses the Iron Cross as a symbol, which is in direct heritage from a crusader order.
The problem for those countries is that baning Islamic symbols is very often just racist rethoric to hit Islam, rather then a proper separation of state and religion.
It would be religionist, not racist. Islam is followed by many different races. But I get where you’re coming from. I’m all for getting rid of all the religious symbolism etc.
I am interested, what exactly constitutes a “religious symbol” for you?
When the right talk about Islam they aren’t talking about the religion. They have no problem with the Muslims from Kosovo for instance. They are specifically targeting Arabs and Africans.
Kosovars rarely wear hijabs though. Same goes for Bosnians and Albanians and many Lebanese, Egyptian and Syrian Muslims. So not it isnt about race.
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No, you were the one brought up Arabs and Africans. You are the one stereotyping Arabs and Africans as the only Muslims who wear headscarves just to further your argument.
No one here has issues with Arabs or Africans. Headscarves and crosses are just inappropriate for public sector workplaces as they are supposed to be neutral and unbiased in secular societies.
You’re ignoring the context of why I brought it up. Right wingers who complain about religious hair dresses don’t give a shit about someone wearing a cross on their necklace. They know they can’t go after people because of race so they use Islam as a backdoor.
But I am not a right winger. I believe in a secular society, public administration should be religiously neutral and that means no one gets special privileges. Also I have rarely ever seen muslim Africans wear headscarves aside from Somalis. Usually when I think of headscarves, I think of Turks, Chechens or people from the Arabian Peninsula.
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Denmark, Iceland, Greece and Malta have some form of Christianity as their state religion. Norway only separated church from the state in 2017. Finland requires a change of the constitution to change the church law, which gives the local lutheran church special rights. Sweden is secular since 2000, but even today grants the local lutheran church special rights.
The right wing is pushing specifically for the banning of things like the hijab or other religious head coverings usually worn by women. They justify it by saying that these head coverings are a symbol of oppression against women, and have no place in a free society.
Thing is though, how free is a society if it feels it has to dictate what women can and can’t wear?
That’s the catch 22 isn’t it… “You’re not free to dictate that women must wear a hijab, because we are dictating they can’t wear one.”
However, this is only legislating public workplaces not everywhere, so it’s less dictatey than Islam.
There have been plenty of efforts and attempts to ban hijabs completely, in different European countries at different times. The debate started probably around the time the first Islamicimmigrants came to Europe.
Because banning something so petty like a hijab is just a dick move which serves no purpose other than cause more tension, if any women is wearing something by her choice, who the fuck are we to judge? Isn’t that the whole point of tolerance and being left wing?
I would hardly put a hijab in the category of ‘by her choice’…
I agree that forcing them is a problem, but a lot of these women themselves complained to the authorities, so i doubt in this particular case they are being forced, and how does outright banning it help the issue? People are forced to work with poor wages, why not ban all jobs?
It’s only banning in the workplace, not an outright ban.
There are plenty of Muslim females I have worked with who never wore a hijab in or outside of work, so if it’s no issue for them, why should it be an issue for these women?
How does it help the issue though, I have no idea.
I think you are missing my point here or yourself are confused, wearing a hijab these days in a modern society is very likely a choice, if a muslim women choses not to, it’s her decision
But banning it and calling it a religious symbol on top of that is a clear statement that they don’t support a personal harmless decision of an individual BECAUSE they follow a religion, and that in my opinion is just racism
And even a slightly controversial take of mine is that we shouldn’t really ban religious symbols either as long as they are not harmful, why would any sane person care if they see a women with a hijab or a burka? Or a person wearing a cross? No one unless they just don’t like anyone whose beliefs or ideology or opinion don’t match with them. The only thing these kinds of laws will do is potentially radicalize more people
The thing is we can’t bring all of humanity on an agreement on even a small issue, let alone something as complex as religion, however what we could do is try to set apart our differences and focus on the overall good for us. This law however is just a step in the opposite direction
Well, it’s a first step, isn’t it? The more Europeans don’t give a shit about freedom and democracy, the more we vote for rightwing extremists, the more we will be ready to put a crescent on the clothing of Muslims, don’t you think so.
Who would fight for their freedom, you?
Because women are individuals, even Muslim women, who would have thought.
And we’re living in a culture that celebrates itself for protecting the freedom and the rights of the individuals.
Sounds kind of crazy, doesn’t it?
And who are you to tell what’s other people choices and what not. That’s unbelievably arrogant.
Wearing jeans (or any other iconic piece of clothing) isn’t your choice, it’s just normal where you grew up. You just adapted to the culture you live in. You’re just a conformist. Or a ‘Spießer’ as we say in German.
And this probably isn’t limited to dress codes. How about ideas, ideologies, worldviews different from yours?
If Muslim women no longer wore headscarves because they weren’t allowed to, how would you recognize the oppressed people you want to “liberate”.
See, now I know you either just didn’t read it or didn’t understand. It applies to all religious symbols, not just a hijab. Can you argue it’s unfair to non western religions like the above commenters? Yes and probably should. But what you said is wrong. They are not “banning something so petty like the hijab”.
“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread”
They are…, no other religion really has something like this like one of the comments here said,
almostall cases are about hijabsAlso how tf is hijab a ‘religious symbol’ anyway? It’s just a piece of clothing which is no different than those caps you find in jackets or hoodies
I see no point in doing something so stupid like this, why not ban cigarettes instead of discriminating for wearing a piece of clothing?
Edit: kinda misunderstood your comment, you called them out for discriminating non western religions, sorry its 4AM and i am cranky AF
There’s a rather considerable current of leftism that is libertarian. Over-regulation of what a person can do, especially with something as, well, personal as appearance, is at odds with left-libertarian values.
Left-authoritarianism is of course compatible with such regulations.
Almost like left ideologies are more complex than an just a yes or no, huh?
Wait until you notice they change over time as they evolve with society.