Tara Rule says her doctor in upstate New York was “determined to protect a hypothetical fetus" instead of helping her treat debilitating pain.
If doctors (or pharmacists) want the choice to impose their own religion on their patients, then at minimum need need to disclose that before ever meeting a patient. Additionally it would disqualify them from accepting any patients that are subsidized with taxpayer money.
This could act like the Surgeon General’s warning on a pack of cigarettes:
WARNING: this physician acts with their own religion in mind before your well being. This could be a danger to your health.
I don’t understand why this is even allowed. If someone had a religious opposition to consuming or enabling the consumption (cooking, serving, etc) of certain foods – shellfish, pork, sweets during lent, meat in general, whatever – that person could not reasonably expect to get a job in a restaurant where that food is regularly served. Like, if a waiter showed up for work at a steakhouse one day and refused to touch any plate with meat on it on religious grounds, no one would be on that waiter’s side when there are vegan restaurants that waiter could have applied to instead.
Doctors are held to a different standard because… the mental gymnastics say it’s totally fine when it’s a woman being denied service I guess?
If these healthcare “professionals” only want to treat men like they deserve humane care, they should be in a field more suited to their preferences.
Failing that, yes, I agree with your comment entirely.
Don’t get it either. I am sure it is quite possible to be a doctor and not be involved with abortion. I am an engineer and I have strong objections to working on military stuff, so I don’t work for military contractors. Other ones don’t so they do.
I’m going to try again (and you know, maybe I’m just wrong but here’s what I’m seeing).
There are doctors in the medical field already, with specific beliefs that may be sexist but are not generally speaking, sexist people. There is also a shortage of doctors.
Do we really want to throw out an entire doctor (that takes years of training) because they don’t want to do a particular procedure?
There is a secondary point of when is refusal to do a procedure sexism or religion vs genuine medical objection to the harms caused (in their medical opinion).
There is an additional point where I fundamentally think legal compulsion is a terrible tool in a free society and should be used as an absolute last resort.
When it comes down to something as sensitive as medicine, I’d rather my doctor be on board or I find a different doctor vs my doctor being compelled to do something they don’t believe in or outright having no doctor to go to because … there aren’t enough.
There’s also the possibility (and it seems like in the video) that the Roe v Wade issue is also making this doctor far more skiddish even in New York State. We really haven’t heard his side and that really is an important perspective.
Surely there’s somebody else this woman could see as well? There’s no way this guy is the only one that knows about these medications and maybe another doctor would like to use a different medication anyways. There are plenty of other cases of doctors saying “you’re fine” to people regardless of gender or sex and them needing to see a different doctor before getting the right treatment.
I originally went after your analogy because it’s so beyond comparison. You might as well make an analogy between a rocket scientist and a scientologist. There are so many layers of nuance here. Driving politics into medical decisions is part of how we got here … is adding more complex “do I need a lawyer (to do what I believe is the best practice)” to a doctor’s practice really a good idea?
That presumably kind of worked for racism but I still can’t imagine the truly racist doctors were giving their best service; like we didn’t just say “you must see black patients or leave medicine” and then the problems were fixed. There are plenty of black people alive today that still distrust the institution of medicine – including my neighbor who refused to get vaccinated because he doesn’t trust doctors – because of what’s been done in the past.
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Analogies are tools to assist understanding, and having opposition debate the analogies themselves instead of the actual points they’re used to make is a sign of a weak rebuttal.
So let’s ignore all the haggling over the analogy and bring it back to the broader point: People should not be in jobs which their personal beliefs prevent doing significant or important aspects of. And equality between genders is objectively an important aspect of health care. These “professionals” should not be in the health care field at all, save perhaps male-focused care fields like prostate or testicular health.
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No, they should have their medical license revoked. Doctors have to swear an oath to not intentionally or knowingly harm a patient for a reason, because their well being is their top priority. If they can’t adhere to that oath because of arbitrary religious/philosophical/political/whatever beliefs, then they have no business being a medical professional.
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Your word salad is confusing.
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Based on what I’ve read in r/childfree, it’s far more common than not for doctors to prioritize the needs of a hypothetical husband or fetus over those of a real live woman. I’ve also known someone in real life who couldn’t get a painful medical condition fixed until her mid 30s because the treatment caused sterility. The problem goes way beyond religion; it’s more a matter of institutional sexism and the hubris of doctors thinking they know better than any woman who says she doesn’t want kids.
Also, if she wanted to do it, adoptions are always needed.
Or, and hear me out, don’t let them deny medical care based on their religion.
You’d have to prove it was purely religion and not their “genuine medical opinion”.
The people refusing are openly stating that it is because of their religious beliefs. If they try to hide it then it will become apparent very quickly when their opinion always ends up with something other than the thing they oppose.
It is so easy to lie about your intentions and hide it behind legit sounding excuses, like “but you could have a child one day”.
Medical review boards.
Claiming this is due to religion isn’t accurate. This happens all the time due to plain old misogyny. Women have a tough time getting proper medical treatment at all, not just when it overlaps with religious fruitcakes.
How does anyone even become a doctor and still hold onto religion?
“Maybe -I’M- god?”
The human mind is something else. I work with so many skydaddy fearing engineers. Utterly freaken brilliant people without which civilization ends in fire and feces.
I was struggling with Biology for my associates degree back in 2007. I happened to teach Tae Kwon Do to the daughter of one of the state university Biology professors (I was only in community College at the time) and I asked the mom to tutor me.
And goddamn. As smart as she was regarding Biology, she bought into Christianity hook, line, and sinker (her husband was a pastor).
We could start our own list. When I say “we” I mean someone else, because I’m both not smart enough to build that, and not in the right place in the world.
I like that. Makes it a lot easier to vote with your wallet.
Except it doesn;t. Right now, roughly 20% of all hospitals in the US are owned by a religion; most are Catholic, and about 1/4 of them are ‘some other religion’. That is up from 12% is 1995. What that means is that, in many cases–especially when it’s an emergency–you won’t have any choice at all except to accept religion-tainted healthcare.
I’ve lived in places where the only option covered by my insurance was religions.
IMO that’s more of an insurance issue and a fair competition issue.
It’s becoming a religion issue as Catholic groups take over more and more hospitals, because they’re going to eliminate health care for things that are against their religious principles.
IMO healthcare should not be permitted to have religion interfering.
Hmm… yeah or at least, maybe not be permitted to set policy for an entire hospital?
Even worse then the headline…
One of the nurses started calling other hospitals lying about what happened, and even found the patient on Facebook and messaged her partner
She knows has to travel outside of the state to get appointments
Well that sounds like an open-and-shut HIPPA violation case.
*HIPAA
*HIPPO
*HIPPOPOTAMUS
*WATERHORSE
And I thought the time my mom got “fired” from her primary care because the nurse flatout lied about her interaction with her was overkill…
Holy fucking Handmaid’s Tale.
“Your womb is worth more than you.”
I hope they take his license after the insurance companies drop him.
Maybe I’m just being pessimistic but I’m nervous that she’s going to lose and this whole misery machine is just going to keep churning.
Albany Medical Health Partners is who she’s suing.
The specific hospital was Glenn’s Falls.
For anyone wondering.Dang, If it was going to be an upstate hospital I figured it would have been St Peters health partners. That group is fucked.
Glenn’s Falls
What Glenn should do as she would be denied abortion in Murica!
Damn, unbelievable this shit is still happening. It was outrageous then, it’s just barbaric now.
Conservative = Regressive. The worst part is that they only pine for it because of nostalgia and nostalgia has a tendency to be viewed through rose colored glasses
To paraphrase a wise owl, when you look at something through rose colored glasses, all of the red flags are just flags.
I wonder which writer wrote that line. They should get recognition.
…. Wouldn’t they appear to be black flags?
…. So what you’re saying is you’d still have to be a total dumb ass to keep going in that direction? That’s an excellent point you made
Conservative = Regressive.
“Great Again” is just a euphemism for this.
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Also Canadian here, our insane conservatives would do the exact same thing if we give them power… I suspect we are soon to find out
Do your damnedest to keep them away. I’ve come to realize that the core of modern conservativism bypasses nationalities. All Western conservative leaders have the same goals.
(Conservative here meaning socially conservative largely. Fascists, not all capitalists necessarily)
I’m worried Canada is going to build a wall
As someone who’s about to go to the hospital, plz send help…and bugles
Yes, crazy town for sure, but from the headline alone it seems like this is an open and shut case of malpractice.
IANAL so wtf do I know
I’m currently watching a handmaid’s tale. I know it’s fictional but my love for Canada has increased while watching the show.
I visited last month and it made me realize just how bad it’s gotten. I had it in my head that I was in a reasonably safe area of the US, but it’s getting worse. I may have to actually consider the asylum for trans people if it becomes a reality :~;
Glens falls hospital is a toilet with entire floors that are abandoned. They don’t even have fans for the women in the birthing center because “people keep stealing them” according to the staff so all this horribly hot summer, women that are about to have or just had a baby have to sit in a pool of sweat with no moving air in their rooms. It cost several thousand a day to stay there, but they can’t provide $20 desk fans.
This kind of shit makes me sad every time I see it. Unbelievable the lengths some women have to go to get the medication they need. I am so tired of these types of doctors.
Not just medication, but just choices regarding their bodies in general. It’s appalling. A friend of mine doesn’t want kids at all. She has been denied twice to have an elective hysterectomy. The doctors told her they won’t in case she decides to have kids.
This sort of thing has been common practice since long before Dobbs. And it is usually motivated by the doctor’s fear of getting sued over birth defects, especially if there is an alternative prescription that is not known to be associated with birth defects. And there almost always is an alternative.
And it is usually motivated by the doctor’s fear of getting sued over birth defects
I’d love to see some kind of citation or a medical professional’s opinion. this seems like bullshit but I’m willing to read supporting evidence if you have any.
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if the patient isn’t pregnant, tests not pregnant, and says they won’t get pregnant, and if they happen to get pregnant, abort the fetus, what the fuck is your problem? this woman asserted all this to the medical ‘professional’ and was still treated like a child who needed someone else’s permission to receive the treatment she needed.
Ever had a migraine?
Comparing it to Thalidomide? FUCK YOU. The drug company knew it had multiple issues with pregnancy and still put it out. Docs warned each other. This is not the same thing, but you’re trying to scare people into thinking there’s an equivalence. https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3415
if the patient isn’t pregnant, tests not pregnant, and says they won’t get pregnant, and if they happen to get pregnant, abort the fetus, what the fuck is your problem? this woman asserted all this to the medical ‘professional’ and was still treated like a child who needed someone else’s permission to receive the treatment she needed
Because people say that, change their minds, and then sue and win after the fact. That’s why. If we weren’t in a lawsuit happy society, and if waivers and legal agreements weren’t ignored by judges, doctors wouldn’t have to be petrified to give shit to people. PEOPLE act like children, and that’s we get treated that way not. She’s proving that with this lawsuit.
Ever had a migraine?
Ya, and they’re fucking terrible, which is why I said I feel for her, but that changes nothing. I couldn’t get on TRT because my levels were “in range” while I was in the shitter over it, Docs hate giving it, Insurance tries to not prescribe it in levels that actually fix anything, so I bypassed them, went to a cash pay clinic and got what I wanted. I didn’t sue the fucking doctor, we live in a anti man society and they’ll get shit on by their practice for doing their job.
Comparing it to Thalidomide? FUCK YOU. The drug company knew it had multiple issues with pregnancy and still put it out. Docs warned each other. This is not the same thing, but you’re trying to scare people into thinking there’s an equivalence. https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3415
I’m very aware of it’s history, and it was fucking people up LONG before it got pulled wasn’t it?
we live in a anti man society
Lol imagine writing this
“LOL”, idiot. Youre clearly not in the States obviously.
I am, indeed, in the US.
ah it’s always that way huh? dirty patients lying to their docs?
get fucked.
hopefully you get a migraine this weekend to remind you to be humane to others.
Quote me saying “dirty patients lying to their docs”
I said people change thier minds. Can’t keep going without putting words in my mouth huh? Thats telling.
My migraines were addressed. I dont get them anymore. Luckily I had docs that worked at finding the issues and didn’t prescribed me drugs they weren’t comofortable with.
At no point was I not “humane”, nice theatrics though! People like you are the reason docs are like that. Anything you dont like you throw a tantrum like a child, and then relynon virtue signaling others to cry for you with mob mentality. Thanks for proving my point.
Another poster already mentioned the issue with Depakote, aka valproate:
See also:
And yes, valproate is also used to treat cluster headaches, so it could easily be the drug that the woman in the article can’t obtain.
so if anything can go wrong it shouldn’t be prescribed?
Tell that to the millions of men who have high blood pressure but pop viagra all the time. Women get a double standard of treatment and it’s bullshit. This woman didn’t want children and affirmed she would seek an abortion if she became pregnant despite birth control. Docs still put her through this garbage.
High blood pressure. Viagra can lower your blood pressure. If you’re taking medication to treat high blood pressure, taking Viagra could cause your blood pressure to drop even further. In some cases, this could make you feel dizzy or lightheaded or cause you to faint. And if you have high blood pressure that’s not controlled (measuring higher than 170/110 mmHg), your heart may not be healthy enough for sex. If you have high blood pressure, talk with your doctor about whether Viagra is right for you. If you’re able to take Viagra, your doctor will usually prescribe a dosage for you that’s lower than the typical dosage.
Oh and this one: Potential for cardiac risk with sexual activity in patients with preexisting cardiovascular disease; therefore, treatment for erectile dysfunction generally should not be instituted in men for whom sexual activity is inadvisable because of their underlying cardiovascular status.
Viagra is pretty safe, as drugs go. Are you thinking of Vioxx? That stuff was taken off the market.
taking viagra with a heart condition is dangerous. but these dr’s apply two sets of rules, one for potential breeding stock and one for the rest of humanity. people are not breeding cattle, these docs need to stay in their fucking lanes and practice medicine, stop injecting their religious opinions onto patients healthcare.
Most people who take Viagra have hypertension, because hypertension is the main cause of ED. That doesn’t mean Viagra is dangerous, but you shouldn’t combine it with certain other drugs.
There is a world of difference between valproate and Viagra. Valproate causes birth defects and cognitive delay in 30-50% of pregnancies, which is astonishingly high. If Viagra caused permanent harm to even 5% of users, it would already be off the market.
so patients should be allowed to use drugs even if there are risks involved.
huh, it’s almost like you’re asserting that people should have agency. like the woman in the article, except her docs decided for her that even though she wasn’t going to have a baby either way, so no risk to pregnancy, they wouldn’t put her on that med because…? it’s disgusting.
Yup. Common practive with anti-epileptics - some have worse implications for babies than others which is why those said others are used first.
I just noticed this in the article:
Where are we drawing the line here? Are hospitals going to require someone to share a pregnancy test
Nearly all hospitals have long required pregnancy tests for some things, like getting a CT scan (which involves radiation exposure). And if the test is positive, the doctor is supposed to consider alternatives.
Exactly. It’s not a “where do we draw the line” thing here, the line is already drawn as you allude to. It’s not just CT scans as well, some actual medications need pregnancy tests or at least active contraception use. Roaccutane, methotrexate and other DMARDs etc - everything in medicine is a risk vs reward thing and I’m sure many patient would prefer not to be on a drug that messes up their fetus whether they’re planning to keep it or not in the case they get pregnant. You’d rather just avoid the risk of that situation occuring altogether.
You cut the quote off, that’s just part of what was said. That quote in full doesn’t just talk about a pregnancy test, but that on top of and as well as sterilisation, before being allowed to take a necessary drug.
What birth defects would there be in this case?
I don’t know, because the medication in question hasn’t been identified.
But in general, if a medication causes any birth defects (or, more often, miscarriages) in lab animals then it won’t be used at the equivalent dose in pregnant patients. It would be unethical to try to find out what it does to a human fetus.
that is not the case here at all. READ THE GODDAMN ARTICLE. SHE WASN’T EVEN PREGNANT.
But she could become pregnant while taking the medication, which would likely lead to birth defects. Why are you struggling to understand this so badly?
even though she said she’d abort if she did, and was not attempting to get pregnant, and may have been on birth control?
It’s not a danger to the baby if you’re already committed NOT TO HAVE A KID. what part of this are YOU struggling with so badly?
Do you think we should ban women from extreme sports once they reach child bearing age? After all, it’ll put a hypothetical foetus at risk, right?
This is such a faulty line of reasoning as to be laughable. The doctor didn’t offer contraception or an alternative medicine as the WHO gives guidance on, instead he made inappropriate enquiries about her sex life and the quality of her partner.
Pragmatism is giving a patient all the information they need to make a decision, not gatekeeping access to meds because you can’t view women as anything other than a foetus factory.
So the woman was pregnant?
From the text in the original post, I assume she was not.
“determined to protect a hypothetical fetus"
She’s not pregnant, but doctors try to avoid long-term prescription of teratogenic drugs to patients who might become pregnant while taking them.
Which is super not ok. You get that, right?
No, I don’t get that. If a drug might result in birth defects, it should only be used as a last resort. And that’s not just me or some random NY docs saying it, it’s the WHO and European Medicines Agency
It is okay if there is a non teratogenic alternative that treats the targeted disease. Why risk teratogenicity when you can altogether avoid it?
I don’t think so. But if a med is not to be used in pregnant patients, then it’s only used as a last resort for patients who could become pregnant while taking it.
Again, this is not about religious beliefs, it’s standard CYA for health care providers.
In the case of valproate, there are even European regulations against using it in women during childbearing years.
NOT IN THE ARTICLE. not sure what bullshit this thread’s asserting
Next week: drinking age for women raised to 50, just in case.
I suspect that such decisions are being driven by fear of tort liability WAY more than any religious or social beliefs of the medical practitioners. I’m not trying to argue in favor of denying women needed medical treatment in any way, shape, or form—it’s just that my lawyer senses are tingling, and I wonder if this is an area where Doctors are overall more likely to get sued if they offer the treatment than deny the treatment. Any MDs in here want to offer a more informed opinion of what the F is going on with such denial of care situations?
No, not in New York. These were personal decisions on the part of the health care providers, and I think this lawsuit is not only appropriate but desperately needed.
The suit is exactly targeted. When fetal personhood is considered to outweigh the life of the mother, it’s absolutely something that needs to be fought tooth and nail. When a hypothetical future fetus is determined to be more important than the life and health of the mother, we’ve entered into a zone that can only be called psychotic.
There is no case that makes it more clear that they’re turning women into sub-persons.
Thanks.
Amen, Republicans saw the gradual erosion of sexism and took that personally. I suspect part of this now is revenge.
We need groups like the Satanic Church to fight fire with fire. Sue against things that could possibly hurt a fetus if you got pregnant tomorrow. Undue stress at work? Being exposed to harmful vapors and substances? Being treated roughly by police? Sue the ever living fuck out of them.
I don’t doubt that Republicans will apply a double standard, but we need to make sure that double standard is constantly broadcasted so the people turn on them.
Couldnt the MD get a written confirmation from the patient that they informed them about the risks for a potential fetus?
That’s unlikely to make a difference in court. Doctors are responsible for recommending the least risky treatment options. They aren’t supposed to leave everything up to the patient.
Yes, this is very likely driven by fear of a malpractice lawsuit. Medications that can harm a fetus are supposed to be a last resort for those who can get pregnant. So if there are other potential medications for this woman, she will likely find it difficult to get a prescription for this one regardless of the doctor’s religious beliefs.
I’m surprised this happened in NY. That’s the kind of BS you’d expect elsewhere.
This is so fucked up.
Up-state NY is more rural and conservative. Towns in the mountains can be fairly small and isolated; those areas vote extremely red.
Maybe but it was apparently in the Albany metro,
I know folks commute there from the Adirondacks but Albany’s one of the least religious cities in the world apparently
As soon as you see “upstate”, you can bet it’s as provincial as any near midwestern state. I grew up along the southern border with PA. It’s more conservative than most people think. The Amish and Mennonite residents feel right at home in those communities.
Ah, I had no idea.
This wasn’t along the border though it was in Albany.
Upstate just means “not the city” of New York. I’m telling you about my knowledge of part of New York State, and, while anecdotal, I believe it is indicative of the more rural parts.
It’s upstate. Isn’t that like republican central?
Upstate, downstate, all around state. Anywhere outside of large urban centers-state.
It’s the same all around America. Further from the cities you get, the more you find people exhibiting inexplicable Southern affectation, MAGA cultism and general shitheel behavior. Like, there are portions of North East OH that are geographically closer to Canada than the Mason Dixon Line, yet they’re still flying traitor flags and sound more southern than actual southerners.
That Erie Canal route basically drags the rest of the state around kicking and screaming.
Even if the Syracuse, Utica, Rochester, Buffalo types resent being associated with NYC, they still vote the same shade of blue more often than not. Just a difference between east coast lefty vs Midwest lefty, because seriously, Erie Canal cities are just the furthest flung eastern fringes of the Midwest
Good. They need to be sued.
Don’t get your hopes up. She sued pro se, which means she couldn’t find or doesn’t want a lawyer to take her case. Either way, it is very unlikely she will win.
I have chronic pain. I also have the privilege of being male, so I do not have to go through what she went through, but I would probably not make it out of it alive considering how severe my pain is and what I tried to do about it once before.
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Anti-choice people shot and bombed doctors and clinics so it’s not exactly unprecedented.
So, you’re okay sinking to those same lows?
The thing is…it worked. People training to be doctors stopped going into abortion-related fields, some schools stopped teaching late-term abortion techniques, and it overall became more difficult to get abortions. And now abortions are becoming illegal again in many states. Their side won.
You say, “won” like nothing can ever change. Dobbs is definitely a step back but I am certain it’ll change back in my lifetime. I’m not an American, but where I am, we’ve adjusted to the threats against abortion providers and I think many US states have done the same.
As the saying goes, “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.”
Not yet. A lot of doctors are leaving those states so that they can practice freely without fear of being prosecuted for doing what’s best for their patients. Looking at you, Idaho
Yes. Do you think we’re really going to take a doctor like this and sit him down and make him a functioning member of society who treats women with respect?
No, he should lose his medical license and potentially suffer other consequences, but that’s through the process of a civilized society. The nurse practitioner’s actions sound criminal and should be prosecuted as such. No need to act barbaric.
And that’ll fix society? Because we’ve been trying it that way for a very long time. Things are getting so much better doing it that way right?
Day by day society is getting more progressive and moving away from things like this right? Right?
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Yes, society is getting more progressive.
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Even if it didn’t, violence won’t solve anything.
We are getting more progressive? When did we get roe versus Wade back? Did we stop trying to outlaw trans people? When did the police stop executing black people in the street just for fun?
These people do what they want because it’s literally legal for them to do it. Nobody is doing anything to stop them. Now if they all started getting drug into the middle of the street and sat on fire they would think twice.
I don’t disagree that violence isn’t the correct answer in this situation, but “Violence never solves anything” is just a nice platitude and is demonstrably false. Most of the rights and privileges we have today only came about through violent means. It is more accurate to say violence doesn’t solve everything.
Or to put it another way:
The Magna Carta was a peace treaty.
The ideas of a democratic republic were born of the French and American Revolutions
MLK was the peaceful side of a civil rights movement that would not have had the same power without Malcom X and the black panthers.
Overtime, the 5 day work week, unions and most labor protections came at the expense of a LOT of blood in the United States.
Women’s Suffrage was not a peaceful movement either.In the history of most countries, mass violent protest has been the protest most likely to achieve its goals. Saying “Violence never solves anything” is to turn a blind eye to history.
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I’ve been saying this for years. Hope you don’t get banned.
If I do I do. But that’s where I am. We keep trying the ‘right’ thing to fix society and get past this shit.
Its. not. fucking. working.
It really is working. It might not be as fast as we want, and it’s definitely a bit of “two steps forwards, one step back,” but society is generally moving in the right direction.
Tell this woman and the thousands of others like her that it’s working. I fucking dare you to go to her account and post don’t worry society is getting better just live with it for now.
I’m not responding to her specific situation, but the movement of society in general.
To be quite frank, we are beyond the time where incremental change is going to save us on so many issues, we might as well drastically raze the entire structure to the ground and rebuild anew. We shortly will not have the planet we used to because we’ve been trying this current method of polite effort. We need to be rude, aggressive, and dangerous to our opposition because they are trying to kill us. They are actively killing us. We are not winning yet and I don’t know if I have time to see us get there.
It seems a lot more like half a step forward, one step back.
By any means necessary.
