How do you figure that? Wagner faced little to no resistance all the way up, they even had local police joining their convoy. Then, it took negotiations with Belarus to get them to stop. How does that show support for Putin’s government?
To me, it sounds like Wagner didn’t really want to shed Russian blood, they simply wanted guarantees of support in the form of supplies and ammunition. They apparently got what they wanted from their talks with the Belarusian President. However, that doesn’t change the fact that many people outside of Moscow were willing to either stand by and let pass or stand with Wagner.
Literally everyone of any importance in Russia basically told the Wagnerites to listen to Putin and stand down. Even people in the street went up to them and asked them to come to their senses. The fact that this didn’t get violent is a testament to both the maturity of the Russian society in general, and the confidence of the Russian government in being in complete control as well as their ability to remain calm and not react emotionally or rashly in a crisis.
This was literally the best possible outcome. It would have only played into the hands of Russia’s enemies for anyone to try and stop the Wagnerites using force. That would have escalated into a total shitshow and would have cost Russia valuable equipment and manpower. It was vital for everyone to remain calm and do nothing that could escalate into real violence. The fry cook got nothing except for being allowed to go into exile and not be imprisoned or killed…for now.
The unity that this little temper tantrum showed exists in Russia really pours cold water on any hopes the West may have had for a real coup. The West will of course try to salvage whatever they can out of it, they will try to twist the narrative to claim that this supposedly shows that Putin is weak because he didn’t crush the mutineers with force, because he showed leniency and restraint. But that little PR win will be short lived and is ultimately a poor consolation prize considering this basically confirmed that whatever hopes they may have had for their strategy of drawing out the war until just maybe some black swan event happens in Russia that will lead to the collapse of the war effort are essentially dead.
This was their best chance of trying to precipitate an internal fracture by exploiting a crisis created by what can only be described as the mental breakdown of a degenerate lowlife with an overinflated ego, all while Ukie psyops were working overtime playing up grievances and disseminating fakes inflating the appearance of serious internal conflicts, and they failed. It turned out that the overwhelming majority of Russians - including all government and military power structures, and even the majority of Wagner - didn’t take the bait and the whole gambit fizzled out.
The fact that the Kremlin prevailed so quickly and decisively, and most importantly without loss of life, and minimal property damage and disruption to civilian life, has just massively increased the stability of the state. Another beneficial side effect is that a number of western assets will also have been burned and many fifth columnists have exposed themselves. The FSB will be busy for the next few weeks looking very closely into anyone who was a bit too enthusiastic about supporting the mutiny. There will be purges that much is sure.
And finally, this whole episode will lead to the general enthusiasm for the concept of PMCs being somewhat lessened which is always a good thing. Mercenaries are yet again proven to be unreliable scum. Russia will almost certainly incorporate them much more tightly and with much greater oversight and control into the official armed forces now to prevent other similar episodes occurring in the future, which is good for discipline and general morale.
The Kremlin didn’t prevail though, Prigozhin backed down only after speaking to Lukashenko. And we don’t know the terms that this was ended under, but it would be a safe assumption that it would involve less integration of PMC’s (or at least Wagner) than what was already happening, as this was one of the main reasons they started their march north.
Do you seriously believe that Lukashenko is just some random third party here? This was a way to provide a way out for Prigozhin and diffuse the situation.
I’m certainly not saying Lukashenko isn’t in allegiance with the Kremlin, however it’s true to say that the Kremlin didn’t negotiate down the coup. Lukashenko did.
Also it’s most likely these terms were somewhat favourable to Wagner and don’t involve its complete integration into Russia’s military and directly under MoD control.
I’m really not sure what point you’re trying to make here to be honest. Kremlin found a way to resolve the situation without bloodshed, and where Prigozhin was removed from wagner while preserving wagner as an effective organization. Wagner is in fact now signing contracts with the MoD, so yes it is directly under the control of the MoD going forward. Basically, Russia managed to resolve the situation in the best way possible.
The Kremlin didn’t find a way to resolve the situation, Lukashenko brokered a deal between Putin and Prigozhin. Without Lukashenko’s intervention the Kremlin had no way of backing down. Lukashenko is an ally of the Kremlin, but he is not the Kremlin, and the Kremlin had already taken the position of harsh punishment.
I don’t think your take is accurate. Wagner isn’t directly under the control of MoD, rather some of Wagner’s troops are being given the option of joining/signing contracts. In fact, it’s only the ones who did not take part that get this option.
The implication is that the rest of Prigozhin’s troops, perhaps his most loyal and most effective, might be going with him to Belarus.
The best way possible would have been to not have the insurrection to begin with. Ideally, by properly supplying troops as promised.
Luka was almost certainly acting on behalf of the Kremlin because for image purposes the Kremlin could not be seen to be the ones making the offer of leniency to traitors, they needed to be the bad cop to Lukashenko’s good cop. In the interest of avoiding a dangerous escalation Luka was used as an ostensible (but not really) “third party” to give the leaders of the mutiny who had backed themselves into a corner a way to still get out of this with their lives so that they wouldn’t fight to the death and take valuable rank and file soldiers with them.
We don’t know what the terms were exactly, we’ll have to wait and see, but from what has been openly stated at least there is no indication that any of the demands of the mutineers were conceded to, personnel changes were not even discussed (imo there was never a snowball’s chance in hell of the government agreeing to that, can you imagine how bad it would be for discipline to allow some uppity mercs to dictate who the commanders of the armed forces are? it would be an enormous violation of the chain of command!), and the integration of Wagner into the official armed forces has only accelerated.
On the whole i think this was unavoidable at some point because the contradiction of giving so much power and prominence to a mercenary group was always going to create conflict, but the way it was handled was just about the optimal way to do it and Russia will come out of this stronger. There will be some who will say that Russia should have foreseen this and not allowed it to come this far in the first place, and maybe that is true, but maybe it was also good it happened the way it did because it offers an opportunity for a more thorough cleanse and a more decisive break with previous policy toward PMCs.
More consolidation under the official state power structures is a good thing for when communists take over again. Mercenaries with too much influence and autonomy would be a nasty problem to deal with. And at the very least the image of Wagner and especially that of certain personalities involved with it is irreversibly tarnished in the eyes of the Russian public, and again i can’t say that that is bad, they were getting too full of themselves and starting to have a negative morale impact by denigrating the performance of the regular armed forces without whom they could never have even operated the way they did to begin with.
and the integration of Wagner into the official armed forces has only accelerated.
The thing is, only those that did not take part in the march are being given the option of signing contracts with the MoD. That means there are significantly fewer Wagner troops available for Russia - the rest will presumably be going to Belarus with Prigozhin. Also, it sounds like they’re still going to be PMCs, just with different contracts.
You make some good points but I don’t think a lack of an attack signals a lack of support. Wagner doesn’t seem like a junior to be trifled with, even if it was only a portion of the unit that headed to Moscow.
It doesn’t make much sense to me for e.g. police to go vigilante and try to stop Wagner on the way up. It would make sense for an order to organise a defence to be coordinated beyond ‘everyone between Ukraine and Moscow needs to individually try to stop Wagner’. If this had turned really bloody within Russia, I imagine the plan would be to ensure a quick victory and to plan for a defense where that was possible.
@TWeaK@lemm.ee at it again. Why do we have to have such people here if all they gonna do is propel their own shitty liberal shit all over the discussions? We are not lemmy but lemmygrad for a reason.
Lol I didn’t even see the words you’re talking about, nor do I care.
I’ve replied to people that replied to me. Like you, when you revived a 2 week old conversation and commented directly to me. That’s kind of how conversations work, ya know?
/Edit: ahh wait, I think Lemmy notifies you of edits to replies. Maybe you’ll see a fresh comment in your inbox now. I saw a fresh comment, but strangely it appeared below some newer comment I hadn’t cleared; your comment had a newer date but appeared below that other comment. I originally ignored your comment, then you edited it somehow, then after I replied you edited it again to remove “libtard”. I don’t really care either way about that (except in the interest in finding lemmy bugs), but in making your first edit you were apparently summoning me. I still raise the question at the bottom, which you have left unanswered. /e
/Edit2: I should also point out that your first reply was made, then deleted. I downvoted that deleted reply because you downvoted me. Then you edited your reply to bring it back with:
Is that why you keep dumping and jumping all over the thread coz can’t see own shit?
Btw, edited those two words out that hurt you most.
which then gave me something to reply to here. So my guess is your edit was in response to my downvote, lol. /e2
You still haven’t told me what liberal shit I’ve been spreading. To be clear, that accusation is the bullshit I was referring to, because your accusation is baseless.
Over or just postponed?
I don’t think anything is going to happen at this point. If anything, this demonstrated that pretty much everyone is behind the government.
How do you figure that? Wagner faced little to no resistance all the way up, they even had local police joining their convoy. Then, it took negotiations with Belarus to get them to stop. How does that show support for Putin’s government?
To me, it sounds like Wagner didn’t really want to shed Russian blood, they simply wanted guarantees of support in the form of supplies and ammunition. They apparently got what they wanted from their talks with the Belarusian President. However, that doesn’t change the fact that many people outside of Moscow were willing to either stand by and let pass or stand with Wagner.
Literally everyone of any importance in Russia basically told the Wagnerites to listen to Putin and stand down. Even people in the street went up to them and asked them to come to their senses. The fact that this didn’t get violent is a testament to both the maturity of the Russian society in general, and the confidence of the Russian government in being in complete control as well as their ability to remain calm and not react emotionally or rashly in a crisis.
This was literally the best possible outcome. It would have only played into the hands of Russia’s enemies for anyone to try and stop the Wagnerites using force. That would have escalated into a total shitshow and would have cost Russia valuable equipment and manpower. It was vital for everyone to remain calm and do nothing that could escalate into real violence. The fry cook got nothing except for being allowed to go into exile and not be imprisoned or killed…for now.
The unity that this little temper tantrum showed exists in Russia really pours cold water on any hopes the West may have had for a real coup. The West will of course try to salvage whatever they can out of it, they will try to twist the narrative to claim that this supposedly shows that Putin is weak because he didn’t crush the mutineers with force, because he showed leniency and restraint. But that little PR win will be short lived and is ultimately a poor consolation prize considering this basically confirmed that whatever hopes they may have had for their strategy of drawing out the war until just maybe some black swan event happens in Russia that will lead to the collapse of the war effort are essentially dead.
This was their best chance of trying to precipitate an internal fracture by exploiting a crisis created by what can only be described as the mental breakdown of a degenerate lowlife with an overinflated ego, all while Ukie psyops were working overtime playing up grievances and disseminating fakes inflating the appearance of serious internal conflicts, and they failed. It turned out that the overwhelming majority of Russians - including all government and military power structures, and even the majority of Wagner - didn’t take the bait and the whole gambit fizzled out.
The fact that the Kremlin prevailed so quickly and decisively, and most importantly without loss of life, and minimal property damage and disruption to civilian life, has just massively increased the stability of the state. Another beneficial side effect is that a number of western assets will also have been burned and many fifth columnists have exposed themselves. The FSB will be busy for the next few weeks looking very closely into anyone who was a bit too enthusiastic about supporting the mutiny. There will be purges that much is sure.
And finally, this whole episode will lead to the general enthusiasm for the concept of PMCs being somewhat lessened which is always a good thing. Mercenaries are yet again proven to be unreliable scum. Russia will almost certainly incorporate them much more tightly and with much greater oversight and control into the official armed forces now to prevent other similar episodes occurring in the future, which is good for discipline and general morale.
The Kremlin didn’t prevail though, Prigozhin backed down only after speaking to Lukashenko. And we don’t know the terms that this was ended under, but it would be a safe assumption that it would involve less integration of PMC’s (or at least Wagner) than what was already happening, as this was one of the main reasons they started their march north.
Do you seriously believe that Lukashenko is just some random third party here? This was a way to provide a way out for Prigozhin and diffuse the situation.
I’m certainly not saying Lukashenko isn’t in allegiance with the Kremlin, however it’s true to say that the Kremlin didn’t negotiate down the coup. Lukashenko did.
Also it’s most likely these terms were somewhat favourable to Wagner and don’t involve its complete integration into Russia’s military and directly under MoD control.
I’m really not sure what point you’re trying to make here to be honest. Kremlin found a way to resolve the situation without bloodshed, and where Prigozhin was removed from wagner while preserving wagner as an effective organization. Wagner is in fact now signing contracts with the MoD, so yes it is directly under the control of the MoD going forward. Basically, Russia managed to resolve the situation in the best way possible.
I’ll distill it down for you:
Luka was almost certainly acting on behalf of the Kremlin because for image purposes the Kremlin could not be seen to be the ones making the offer of leniency to traitors, they needed to be the bad cop to Lukashenko’s good cop. In the interest of avoiding a dangerous escalation Luka was used as an ostensible (but not really) “third party” to give the leaders of the mutiny who had backed themselves into a corner a way to still get out of this with their lives so that they wouldn’t fight to the death and take valuable rank and file soldiers with them.
We don’t know what the terms were exactly, we’ll have to wait and see, but from what has been openly stated at least there is no indication that any of the demands of the mutineers were conceded to, personnel changes were not even discussed (imo there was never a snowball’s chance in hell of the government agreeing to that, can you imagine how bad it would be for discipline to allow some uppity mercs to dictate who the commanders of the armed forces are? it would be an enormous violation of the chain of command!), and the integration of Wagner into the official armed forces has only accelerated.
On the whole i think this was unavoidable at some point because the contradiction of giving so much power and prominence to a mercenary group was always going to create conflict, but the way it was handled was just about the optimal way to do it and Russia will come out of this stronger. There will be some who will say that Russia should have foreseen this and not allowed it to come this far in the first place, and maybe that is true, but maybe it was also good it happened the way it did because it offers an opportunity for a more thorough cleanse and a more decisive break with previous policy toward PMCs.
More consolidation under the official state power structures is a good thing for when communists take over again. Mercenaries with too much influence and autonomy would be a nasty problem to deal with. And at the very least the image of Wagner and especially that of certain personalities involved with it is irreversibly tarnished in the eyes of the Russian public, and again i can’t say that that is bad, they were getting too full of themselves and starting to have a negative morale impact by denigrating the performance of the regular armed forces without whom they could never have even operated the way they did to begin with.
The thing is, only those that did not take part in the march are being given the option of signing contracts with the MoD. That means there are significantly fewer Wagner troops available for Russia - the rest will presumably be going to Belarus with Prigozhin. Also, it sounds like they’re still going to be PMCs, just with different contracts.
You make some good points but I don’t think a lack of an attack signals a lack of support. Wagner doesn’t seem like a junior to be trifled with, even if it was only a portion of the unit that headed to Moscow.
It doesn’t make much sense to me for e.g. police to go vigilante and try to stop Wagner on the way up. It would make sense for an order to organise a defence to be coordinated beyond ‘everyone between Ukraine and Moscow needs to individually try to stop Wagner’. If this had turned really bloody within Russia, I imagine the plan would be to ensure a quick victory and to plan for a defense where that was possible.
@TWeaK@lemm.ee at it again. Why do we have to have such people here if all they gonna do is propel their own shitty liberal shit all over the discussions? We are not lemmy but lemmygrad for a reason.
Lets not use the term “libtard” please, it is just an abelist slur portmanteaued to lib.
What liberal shit was I spreading in this thread?
You’re spreading nothing but bullshit, so how are you in any position to call me out?
Is that why you keep dumping and jumping all over the thread coz can’t see own shit?
Btw, edited those two words out that hurt you most.
Lol I didn’t even see the words you’re talking about, nor do I care.
I’ve replied to people that replied to me. Like you, when you revived a 2 week old conversation and commented directly to me. That’s kind of how conversations work, ya know?
/Edit: ahh wait, I think Lemmy notifies you of edits to replies. Maybe you’ll see a fresh comment in your inbox now. I saw a fresh comment, but strangely it appeared below some newer comment I hadn’t cleared; your comment had a newer date but appeared below that other comment. I originally ignored your comment, then you edited it somehow, then after I replied you edited it again to remove “libtard”. I don’t really care either way about that (except in the interest in finding lemmy bugs), but in making your first edit you were apparently summoning me. I still raise the question at the bottom, which you have left unanswered. /e
/Edit2: I should also point out that your first reply was made, then deleted. I downvoted that deleted reply because you downvoted me. Then you edited your reply to bring it back with:
which then gave me something to reply to here. So my guess is your edit was in response to my downvote, lol. /e2
You still haven’t told me what liberal shit I’ve been spreading. To be clear, that accusation is the bullshit I was referring to, because your accusation is baseless.