Much credit to this post.

  • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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    14 days ago

    If you have strong data to the contrary on the accuracy of police testimony, then just present it, and we can get to the bottom of this. You would have done this already if you weren’t so busy trying to bait me. Since you haven’t, I assumed your rationale is not based on hard facts at all. You are more than welcome to prove me wrong.

    Yes, a technicality was employed, I’ve not denied that either. I don’t see the problem with it. The prosecutor should follow the letter of the law and use their most effective tools.

    He was just in a bar fight, you very conveniently quoted me around that part.

    Again, present data if you’ve got it, and we can put this to rest.

    Ah, I see. “Match works cited”, I did gloss over that part. So you’re saying that if I click on the link part of OPs post that says the man did not commit the crime, I will encounter that claim within that article? Because I’m pretty sure it was the one I personally linked to, and I don’t recall that being in it. Perhaps they mixed the links up though, mistakes do happen.

    Regarding your six, defense lawyer incompetence I already granted. The technicality is irrelevant. Cop unreliability awaits data, otherwise I addressed it. Other witnesses I addressed in my first comment. One witness being a cop is irrelevant. Presumption of innocence I’ll grant since the conviction was thrown out. This does not automatically grant release though, any more than you’d automatically go free while awaiting an initial trial. OPs verbatim I’ve just addressed.

    And the rest of that looks like more bait.

    The heart of this disagreement is about the accuracy of police testimony, as best as I can tell. Can you actually back your words? I’m open to changing my mind, but it’s going to take more than clever rhetoric to do it. I like numbers, and I am deeply suspicious of people that think they can predict the actions of individuals based on the systems they are in or their group membership.

    • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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      14 days ago

      If you have strong data to the contrary on the accuracy of police testimony, then just present it, and we can get to the bottom of this.

      I will gladly spend the time compiling this once you fully acknowledge the bad faith I’ve had to deal with in this engagement and when you show any curiosity whatsoever in learning about this topic. I am not going to compile and explain this information while receiving bad faith pushback, as the conclusion would surely just be me receiving more dismissive comments that do not address what I say and probably without even reading the references I produce.

      You would have done this already if you weren’t so busy trying to bait me.

      I am spending basically all of my time trying to get you to read and respond to what I say and not make things up. I gave you many early opportunities to do so and now have to say it directly. The behavior does not seem to be improving.

      Since you haven’t, I assumed your rationale is not based on hard facts at all. You are more than welcome to prove me wrong.

      This is a highly entitled position and I doubt many people indulge you this way.

      Yes, a technicality was employed, I’ve not denied that either.

      What I said was that you missed the point and have ignored me mentioning it (twice). You still are not responding to what I have actually said about the technicality. I told you why. I explained it.

      Do you see why I am not going out of my way to preemptively compile educational resources for you? We are currently working at the level of, “can this person read and respond germanely and not resort to straw men”.

      I don’t see the problem with it. The prosecutor should follow the letter of the law and use their most effective tools.

      What did I have to say about this and where is the error in my thinking?

      He was just in a bar fight, you very conveniently quoted me around that part.

      I literally included your mention of a bar fight. Do you know how to quote text? This would help with understanding exactly what you are responding. You know, you have already skipped over entire sets of paragraphs that I wrote in response. Just ignored them.

      This will be my last response to you until you can demonstrably engage in good faith.

      Ah, I see. “Match works cited”, I did gloss over that part.

      Yes the part that is most directly in opposition to your entire complaint that I have repeated 4 times.

      So you’re saying that if I click on the link part of OPs post that says the man did not commit the crime, I will encounter that claim within that article? Because I’m pretty sure it was the one I personally linked to, and I don’t recall that being in it. Perhaps they mixed the links up though, mistakes do happen.

      OP had several links, remember? You remember saying that early on? One of them, as I have said several times now, has exactly the claim OP made that you dispute.

      Regarding your six, defense lawyer incompetence I already granted.

      Do you think so? Review what I said about it and tell me how you “granted” it.

      The technicality is irrelevant.

      I explained how it is relevant and you had failed to recognize the claim at all and have still failed to dispute it.

      Cop unreliability awaits data, otherwise I addressed it.

      It awaits you learning about this topic and not appreciating your own ignorance over knowledge of systemic functions and outcomes. Or even just any personal experience, as that tends to teach this lesson. On this topic you have expounded at length about irrelevancies and straw men but not my direct challenges.

      Other witnesses I addressed in my first comment.

      You discussed it in your third comment as a way to inaccurately summarize the dispute and ignored my response to that and subsequent mentions of it.

      One witness being a cop is irrelevant.

      I have mentioned how it is relevant and you had neither acknowledged me pointing this out and have yet to dispute what I said.

      It is clear that you prefer to claim irrelevance as an excuse to avoid engaging with what is said.

      Presumption of innocence I’ll grant since the conviction was thrown out.

      Do you also grant that you ignored this point and are thus completely and utterly wrong in your mischaracterization of my sentiment as just “acab”? Did you forget why I was listing numbers of points?

      This does not automatically grant release though, any more than you’d automatically go free while awaiting an initial trial.

      Again, the rationale given was a technicality and not something based on a merit. You’ve gotta remember the basic facts and think of them consistently together, not inconsistently in isolation. Otherwise you will be confused and wrong.

      OPs verbatim I’ve just addressed.

      And you were simultaneously condescending amd confused and wrong about that. And, again, are forgetting why this list was presented and why I challenged you to respond to it.

      And the rest of that looks like more bait.

      " I will continue ignoring the things I don’t know how to respond to buy also feel the need to project that I am still right to do so".

      The heart of this disagreement is about the accuracy of police testimony, as best as I can tell.

      I literally just got done listing 7 points, only one of which is about that, and you just got done providing inadequate or wrong responses to them. You are now fully aware that it would be a lie to try and yet again try to simplify it down to this alone.

      And if I were to describe the heart of this disagreement, it is actually that you are wrong about OP being misleading and that you should apologize, but instead of acting in good faith you are engaging in fibs and deflections and ignoring what is said. I believe that you can do better, but you will have to respect yourself more first.

      Can you actually back your words? I’m open to changing my mind

      Exhibit A in contradiction of this: this entire conversation, pulling teeth to get you to almost respond to what I say instead of making things up.

      In short, I, reasonably, do not believe you. You have to dig yourself out of a hole first to have any presumption of good faith or curiosity. The fact that you want to wait around for the person you’re ignoring to lay it out for you on a platter is contradictory of this.

      but it’s going to take more than clever rhetoric to do it.

      My rhetoric is not clever, it is very basic and direct.

      I like numbers, and I am deeply suspicious of people that think they can predict the actions of individuals based on the systems they are in or their group membership.

      Contradictory exhibit B: the entire field of sociology.

      • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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        14 days ago

        … you have to compile it? You can just direct me to reputable sources that you are aware of, I can look myself. I won’t trust random internet person anyway. No compiling necessary, if you know where the information is located, you can just point me at it.

        That’s cute, but you’ve clearly begun trying to bait me into getting angry by framing all of my disagreements as ignorance that you are superior to, instead of dealing with my arguments fairly. It’s not that easy though, I’m fairly resistant to being talked down to and belittled. I do not believe in your “correctness” you see, as I do not share your faith. And I’ve been around enough internet people to see the tricks. The lmfaos are a pretty strong indicator as well.

        Actually people present evidence when challenged all the time. It’s a horribly efficient way to prove the other fellow wrong.

        Hm, so you did. I suppose I’m skimming over the quoted segments rather quickly. Regardless, you failed to address it, only pointing out a previous weapons conviction that served to reinforce my point about a dangerous individual. This links into your next issue, of the technicality, to keep a dangerous individual off of the streets. You claimed it was “harassment” as I recall, as if she was just petty? This is unlikely.

        So, if one of the several articles had that claim of OPs, then why did the actual link arrived at by clicking on those words not contain that claim? Am I expected to have time to read all of the articles? It’s Thursday, there’s things to do. I find it a reasonable expectation that a link should go directly to the article that supports its claim. But, like I said, I’m willing to take you at your word and give OP the benefit of the doubt, perhaps they simply mixed the links up.

        Defense lawyer incompetence I acknowledged as a flaw. Does it make your argument correct in its entirety? No, it’s a point well-made though.

        Technically we’ve discussed, I’ve explained why I consider it irrelevant and you have failed to address my arguments. To summarize: dangerous man, behind bars.

        Still awaiting data. Not compiled data, something I can research and look up myself. You can name a book if you like, or direct me to a study. Even a well-researched article. You can pretend its some big hassle, but this is the internet, back your argument with proof is really common, and should be expected. Cops lie often is a strong claim. If you genuinely know this as a confirmed fact, you should know where statistics can be found.

        I didn’t mischaracterize them at all. They are two witnesses, that disagree with two other witnesses. This is very simple, and I addressed it. One being a cop is irrelevant though, they could be from different departments, different offices, etc. This snitches idea indicates you consume too much fiction. While yes, pressure to agree with other cops does happen, remember we have millions of police officers. The average is likely nowhere near your dramatized account. See? Irrelevant, without backing data at least.

        No, I will not. See next:

        It’s about results. The prosecutor and defense exist in intentional opposition to each other, with each side intentionally using every legal tool at their disposal to accomplish their goals. This is the way our system was designed, for better or for worse. It is unreasonable to expect one side to only play by “the merits”. Otherwise defense attorneys would never represent extremely guilty people you see.

        Absolutely hilarious that you accuse me of condescension. Pot calling the kettle black much? I’m not the lmfao-ing one, I’ve actually been pretty reasonable.

        And now you’re just calling me a liar. Very classy of you. Perhaps you recognize the argument is not actually going your way? I imagine you don’t usually lose these, it might be a strange feeling.

        Lastly, pointing at an entire field of study is a pretty good sign you’re not actually in possession of the evidence you claim.

        I rest my case.

        • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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          14 days ago

          As I see nothing indicating any real curiosity about cops as witness testimony nor an acknowledgement of the repeated bad faith behavior, I will not be replying further.

          • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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            14 days ago

            Very convenient excuse to avoid sourcing. Really shouldn’t be difficult at all to source a basic fact, if the whole field of sociology agrees. If you asked me for data indicating the CO2 emissions are rising, something agreed on by climate science, I could have it for you in less than a minute.