Much credit to this post.

  • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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    15 days ago

    Well worth it to actually click through and read some of the specific articles on topics of interest. The descriptions are not all accurate.

      • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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        14 days ago

        Many of these are about a case of a man supposedly throwing a knife under a car, for instance. “A crime he didn’t commit” is inaccurate, it remained very much in question.

        https://laist.com/news/kpcc-archive/san-fernando-valley-man-s-freedom-hangs-in-appeal

        Really, I recommend reading through any that strike your interest, and not simply trusting the one-shot summaries provided by a random person on the internet.

        • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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          14 days ago

          Many of these are about a case of a man supposedly throwing a knife under a car, for instance.

          So far as I can tell, a single bullet point is about this, just with multiple links.

          “A crime he didn’t commit” is inaccurate, it remained very much in question.

          It’s a claim straight from one of the links and I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that a conviction based solely on cop testimony, later contradicted by other witnesses, with an incompetent defending lawyer that was later disbarred, is plenty enough to make that claim.

          Really, I recommend reading through any that strike your interest, and not simply trusting the one-shot summaries provided by a random person on the internet.

          Sure, but read them critically and not with a pro-cop bias.

          • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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            14 days ago

            It was also a point of at least one of the other bullets.

            Also need to read them without an anti-cop bias, it’s about conflicting witnesses. This puts the case into question based on an unbiased reading of the evidence at hand.

            Definitely read them critically, certainly. But remove all bias, not just pro-cop bias. There’s a whole bunch of nuance in the handful I clicked on that the pithy shorts neglect or outright spin.

            • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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              14 days ago

              It was also a point of at least one of the other bullets.

              It was mentioned in a summary article of Kamala’s reactionary behavior as AG that is at the head of the other bullet points about this. It was a small part of a summary article that is entirely correct in its thesis.

              You are being misleading in your criticisms and should retract your false framing of OP’s post.

              Also need to read them without an anti-cop bias

              No I don’t. An anti-cop bias means being correct about power structures and, in this case, why you cannot trust them to tell the truth in court, let alone as the primary or sole evidence for guilt. In contrast, a pro-cop bias suggests either naivete or knowing sympathy with the legalized gang boot.

              it’s about conflicting witnesses.

              It’s about the primary evidence being the claims of two cops that were later contradicted by other witnesses (one of whom was also a cop!), the incompetent atyorney and the impact it had on the defense, like I said. Please address what I actually said, this is becoming repetitive and you are saying things already contradicted by myself and the articles in question. You read them, right? You recommended everyone do so. Why are you mischaracterizing them by omitting important information?

              I didn’t even mention how this reflects on Harris, who used a technicality to keep harassing this person rather than address or accept the material facts.

              This puts the case into question based on an unbiased reading of the evidence at hand.

              It puts the conviction and its fundamental basis into question, making it spurious. That is, unless you have the misapprehension that cops don’t routinely lie in their reports and in court. It is laughable to take the original case seriously.

              Definitely read them critically, certainly. But remove all bias, not just pro-cop bias.

              It speaks to a status quo naivete to presume the best position is one “without bias”. That is not only an impossible thing, it is a counter-productive thing to persue. Are you going to read the article without a language bias, where the words could mean anything or something, it is all the same to you? Will you be reading the case without a temporal bias? Maybe the events happened in a totally different order, who knows! Maybe 27 years is actually a day. Understanding the world and its systems necessitates bias.

              Such as that a case built on the testimony of two cops is, to make it simple, horseshit.

              There’s a whole bunch of nuance in the handful I clicked on that the pithy shorts neglect or outright spin.

              Given that you were wrong and misleading about this one, I am not optimistic about this, but feel free to share your other critical readings.

              • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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                14 days ago

                I am not being misleading at all, this is strongly slanted content.

                Your “correct about power structures” betrays you. I think it is quite reasonable to see even police as individuals, capable of individual action. To me it’s testimony of two against two. The defense attorney’s incompetence is another issue entirely, but does not make the man innocent. Maybe he threw the knife, maybe he did not. Until we get a better answer in court, that’s all we’ve got.

                I really don’t think we need to consider temporal bias, unless this happened in low light conditions. Nor language bias. Simply bias towards the witnesses. You are disregarding two of them due to your own perceptions of structural power, I am disregarding none of them. I prefer my way. The rest of your rhetoric is rather silly.

                I read a few of these this morning, and saw legitimate cause for concern. I do not recall which specific ones I clicked on though, I tried to pick a handful at random. Regardless, a cautioning to be wary about internet spin is far from misleading, and this is definitely spun. I strongly suspect you simply like the spin out of an acab position, which I clearly do not ascribe to. You can call me naive if you like, I am certainly aware of the incentives for police to get convictions. I do not find such a position sufficient to simply disregard all police testimony, however. That simply should not be good enough, regardless of your philosophical leanings.

                • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
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                  14 days ago

                  I am not being misleading at all, this is strongly slanted content.

                  I have explained how your claim is misleading twice now and you have not responded to that.

                  Your “correct about power structures” betrays you.

                  Betrays me how? You never elaborate on this later on.

                  I think it is quite reasonable to see even police as individuals, capable of individual action.

                  And yet the system produces a legalized gang that watches each others’ backs and routinely lies on reports and on the stand. You can’t just ignore that reality away, though clearly you would like to because knowing that cops are unreliable witnesses against defendants blows up the entirety of the prosecurion’s case. It is an absurd thing, and gullible, to think that cops’ testimony is enough to presume any level of guilt.

                  To me it’s testimony of two against two.

                  “If you stop making me think about context and facts, it’s simple, really! My position is nuanced!” lmfao

                  The defense attorney’s incompetence is another issue entirely

                  No it is not. It also undermines the original conviction, highlights the cruelty of Harris’ intervention, and provides a hint at the systemic issues re: the criminal punishment system that should lead you to have a less pro-cop, pro-prosecutor bias.

                  but does not make the man innocent. Maybe he threw the knife, maybe he did not. Until we get a better answer in court, that’s all we’ve got.

                  The burden of proof is on the positive claimant. Claims of crimes are not, by default, ambiguously true just because they are prosecuted or because there is cop testimony. Your logic is that of the southern white lynch mob.

                  And it reflects poorly on your comments, not on OP. You should withdraw your claim and apologize.

                  I really don’t think we need to consider temporal bias […]

                  I was obviously being absurd on purpose in both cases. Bias is inherent to having a correct understanding of something. The problem here is not bias at all, it’s being biased towards cops and prosecutors. You should be biased against them in these examples as they have a poor track record and it is for systemic reasons. And, to boot, they were contradicted by others, including another cop. This normally puts a huge target on the back of a “snitch”. See how useful bias is? It means you understand the forces at work and can judge the value of actions in context.

                  Simply bias towards the witnesses. You are disregarding two of them due to your own perceptions of structural power, I am disregarding none of them. I prefer my way. The rest of your rhetoric is rather silly.

                  I have actually listed at least 6 arguments around this, from different aspects of the case, and you have ignored nearly all of them. Noting the irrationality of your problem bias is just one part of explaining one of those angles.

                  Because I think you have forgotten, I will remind you that you are claiming the OP is being misleading and that the content of the articles does not match the claims, listing one example so far (and in a different misleading way, as I have noted twice!): that it isn’t kosher to say an innocent man was convicted (despite one of the articles saying this verbatim), that it is actually ambiguous and man, you just can’t tell. I will add a 7th argument: you are entirely missing the real point of those articles anyways, which is that Harris stepped in to harass this man in a technicality, i.e. the exact timing of challenges and the presentation of witnesses.

                  The rest of your rhetoric is rather silly.

                  Oh dear.

                  I read a few of these this morning, and saw legitimate cause for concern.

                  Yet you have only listed one example and didn’t even characterize it right in its basic framing, as it was only stated in one bullet point.

                  I do not recall which specific ones I clicked on though, I tried to pick a handful at random.

                  By this I will take it to mean you refuse to provide more examples despite claiming to have them.

                  Regardless, a cautioning to be wary about internet spin is far from misleading, and this is definitely spjn.

                  Only if you are biased towards cops and prosecutors and do things like, say, try to remove context from consideration or look at the case in its totality because that would contradict your narrative. You don’t see the irony in this behavior while decryjng “internet spin”?

                  I strongly suspect you simply like the spin out of an acab position, which I clearly do not ascribe to.

                  Feel free to respond directly to what I say and ask questions and you might be able to make accurate conclusions about my positions.

                  You can call me naive if you like, I am certainly aware of the incentives for police to get convictions.

                  And this describes the totality of your understanding of how much and why cops lie in reports and in court?

                  I do not find such a position sufficient to simply disregard all police testimony, however. That simply should not be good enough, regardless of your philosophical leanings.

                  I will take that as a “yes” to my question.

                  • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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                    14 days ago

                    No, you’ve tried, but all you’ve got is acab. That’s not good enough. My assessment stands.

                    Certainly, cops do sometimes lie, no question. In a country with millions of police officers, though, the anecdotal accounts your media is likely flooded with are insufficient, as is your faith in a single structural philosophy. The fact of the matter is that police give thousands of testimonies every day, some are true, some are false. It makes no sense to simply disregard police testimony as a default. While I doubt we have actual statistics on something so complex, I find it very unlikely that police are lying more often than not. We should note, though, that when they’re being honest, you will not hear news of it, because its not newsworthy. This skews your perceptions.

                    You’re also neglecting that this individual had previous convictions and had just been in a bar fight. Clearly a violent man. While yes, it was cruel to keep him locked up during the appeals process, I don’t dispute that, I do dispute the characterization that he should still be presumed innocent. Could the additional two witnesses have swayed the decision? Maybe. That’s the best we have. To presume they would have is inappropriate though, and there is valid reason to keep him behind bars while the process plays out.

                    I clearly disagree that we should automatically be biased against police testimony. All witness testimony should be considered with a certain measure of doubt, but I would need some harder data to convince me police testimony is false a statistically significant amount of the time.

                    You’ve now listed a long string of arguments, but you didn’t earlier, you’re mischaracterizing. Your previous comment can be summed up entirely with four words: You don’t trust cops. This is fine, but I have higher standards. I neither trust nor distrust them by default, I sit between the two. I am willing to accept their testimony in this case.

                    Oh dear?

                    When I get around to reading news articles again, likely tomorrow morning, I’ll provide you a few more and we can resume this. For now though, correct, I am not going to go back through them.

                    I’m not interested in a systemic discussion with you, is what that means. I know full well we’d be going back and forth for quite some time, given the strength of your beliefs. Given that I do not think a systems-basef view captures even most of the necessary information, I would find the exercise rather pointless.

                    You certainly like your pithy comebacks, but I prefer a more rigorous and colder logic. Ultimately, the man was a danger, and this was an appropriate exercise of prosecutorial power.