We’re not, unless your idea of “Tankie” includes people with pretty severe critiques of both the SU and Current (and pre-Deng) China. There are a lot of MLs and various Mao-associated tendencies, but I’m a Luxemburgist (less keen on strict party control than MLs, more sceptical of National Self-determination), and I’ve seen Council Coms, Bordigists, Gonzalists, Trots of Every Stripe, and anarchists here. Even a few reformists. You’ll have a good time if you understand that we tend to take Communist and Socialist states as acting, however flawed, in good faith, and act similarly to members of all tendencies as long as they’re socialist, internationalist, and LGBTQ+ positive etc, and, though sometimes a good Trot joke is hard to resist.
The answer to both options is yes, we are.
We very, very occasionally end up with the same positions as the far right sometimes, though from vastly different principles. Most of us support, with caveats, both the Soviet Union and Current China, as well as other states like Cuba, DPRK etc. Additionally we generally take an anti-imperialist stance here. Which means our opinions on Ukraine range from “A plague on both their houses” to “Revolutionary Defeatism” to “Putin deserves the wall even more than Zelensky, but a fast peace is preferable, preserves what remains of some pseudo socialist currents in the Donetsk Republics, and more importantly weakens the USA.” Some are even more sympathetic to Ukraine, but acknowledge that NATO is not their friend, and that Ukraine has a very real fascist problem. We also have opinions on US politics that acknowledge Bernie Sanders as the milquetoast Social Democrat that he is and the Democrats as incapable of substantive reform even if Biden declared the DIctatorship of the Proletariat tomorrow. There is a substantial diversity of views there as well, though.
We meme a lot because we have a lot of injokes here, and it’s a quick way of getting across a point that’s been done to death, or quickly dunking on an opinion in a way regulars will immediately understand. Also, we’re a pretty chill and jokey community here even when struggle sessioning.
Thank you. Apologies, but there are a ton of responses here that answer my questions many times over and I can’t respond to each and every bullet, so I will zero in on the unique ones instead. In this case, I’m curious about this one, specifically for the DPRK.
Most of us support, with caveats, both the Soviet Union and Current China, as well as other states like Cuba, DPRK etc
I can see the reasoning for current China and the Soviet Union based on the principles of the ideology, regardless if they practice what they preach; but what are the things the DPRK is doing right in your opinion? What I see from my (apparently limited and one-sided view) is Kim, his cronies, military leadership, and the elite class living comfortable to luxurious lives while the common people are serving in the military or living peasant lives without access to proper nutrition, healthcare, and the convenience of modern technology. To me, these are caveats, which sound eerily similar to capitalism, so what is the good side?
Follow up question: Does it ever come to a point where the caveats far outweigh what aligns with your views (more bad vs. good)? And does that change your view and support of that specific country?
I’m…very critical of the DPRK personally. I think Juche as an ideology, while it has some interesting points, is pretty idealist and departs far too far from Marxist principles. And yes, the Kim personality cult rubs me the wrong way. That said the American Civic Cult gives me the same vibes. As does the Australian Anzac Cult, Britains hard on for Churchill and Nelson and the Royals etc etc
The DPRK has many flaws; it’s over militarised. Its inner cadre is insular and often slow to adapt. Its relations with China could be a lot better if they’d roll back on the Juche just a bit. There’s a nasty stink of Neo-Confucianism all over some of its political organs (but then, we might say that western communist parties often adopt some of the negative aspects of Christian ideology like millenarianism and purity cults.)
But it’s not the starving absolute monarchy often depicted in western media (though like Cuba it did have a fairly severe famine in the 1990s, after the SU fell and before it could re-normalise Chinese relations (the DPRK was on the soviet side of the split, if you recall). Kim is mostly a figurehead, he has power as does his family, but less than Stalin or Mao did, and those too were not the dictators people make them out to be, frequently losing votes and having preferred policies blocked by the rest of the party. The Kim family live privileged lives, sometimes spoiled lives, but no more than the US president. They don’t actually own all those palaces, and if they step too far out of line the Party won’t hesitate to take them away and find a third cousin to pick up the torch of Kim il Sung’s legacy.
As for the inner party, yeah, it sucks and I’d prefer Sankara’s approach of making their upper officials drive second hand 30 year old rust buckets and live in studio apartments. But then you have headlines in the west “North Korea so poor, their ambassador can’t afford a car or proper clothes.” The unfortunate fact is that appearances need to be kept up, and also, upper officials in any nation tend to work 80+ hours a week under high stress conditions where loss of acuity is not an option. I know we laugh at Biden and Sunak, but they (or at least their handlers) are actually terrifyingly smart people who can work crunch for years at a time without flinching. They need the comfortable offices, drivers, and business-class flights to do their jobs effectively.
Yes, it has a lower standard of living, but like Cuba, it can’t trade with anyone (and no, trade with China isn’t easy when a company that trades with the DPRK cannot, at any point in any operation, use a single Western financial institution, business, or NGO in any transaction (even those with non DPRK companies) without getting hit by the sanction hammer.) People there live ok lives, they eat regularly, they buy consumer goods, they go to their jobs, which sometimes suck. There’s a robust health and welfare network, there’s pretty good education, and while the military take up too much GDP, there is opportunity for economic expansion and it has in fact been catching up. It is fairly easy to get involved with local political committees and the average citizen has more control over local and even national policy than in western nations.
There’s an old joke. In the USA you can choose your party, but not the policy. In China, you can choose the policy, but not the party. The same goes for the DPRK. By the time an issue reaches a caucus, it’s been passed back and forth through representatives a thousand times, and every sector of society has had its say. The parliament is a rubber stamp because all the arguing happens at a lower level where people have more direct involvement. It’s still not perfect, or even good, but I don’t think it’s worse than a Parliamentary republic, and better than a Presidential one.
Defectors are unreliable because they’re often paid better the more outlandish their stories are, which is where we get people like Park talking about the one train that Korea has that they have to get out and pull in the winter and if you fall down in the cold they shoot you with an anti aircraft gun and send your family to the mines to pay the cost of the bullet. Many defect because they were smugglers or black marketeers who found themselves on the run, which is how they had the connections to cross the border in the first place. Others are disaffected military personnel, or cadre that lost a political infight and may have pointed critique that is at least worth trying to pick through. Some just watch too many bootleg shows, and those ask for repatriation more often than you might think.
I’ve actually had the pleasure of knowing a couple of North Koreans as casual aquaintances, and they’re normal, if somewhat insular people, who live normal lives. They laugh, they get annoyed, they have an unfortunate addiction to Chilean Tempranillos of dubious quality…
Yes, it does come to a point where I won’t defend a nation or group, somewhere not too far beyond where the DPRK is. Unlike others here I don’t offer Russia as it stands critical support, nor do I offer it to any nation that doesn’t at least pay lip service to Socialism. Something like Pol Pot I unequivocally condemn, as masking a murderous agrarian reaction in a red flag. There are (mercifully small) factions in the CPC that could move China in a direction I could not follow.
PatSocs, Nasbols, etc are also not deserving of critique. In fact my standards for non ruling parties are far higher than for ruling ones. After all, no plan survives contact with reality.
they have an unfortunate addiction to Chilean Tempranillos of dubious quality
Of all the things i’ve learned about North Korea and its people from this post, a description of their wine tastes is the weirdest one. I can’t say i’ve tasted a Chilean Tempranillo, but I can’t imagine it being very good.
I’ve mostly known Chile for their french grapes, but it checks out that a heavy spanish red would do well in some regions there. I’ll be on the lookout for one next time the weather allows for me to drink a heavy red, i can’t do it with this heat.
Yeah, Chilean Malbecs are my favourite wines, except for some Malbecs from a very particular part of Basque country where they don’t have the slightly muddy flavour you often get from French Malbecs (which is why they’re generally blended into a Bordeaux, but here in Aus we tend not to blend outside of a GSM.)
I count myself lucky because I live in a place that has a lot of autochtonous variety diversity, so I rarely drink any French grapes. That being said I’ve always been a fan of right bank Bordeaux, and those have malbec in healthy amounts, so I’m no stranger to it. Most of my experience with unblended Malbec comes from Argentinian ones though, and those can be hit-or-miss.
it basically comes down to most of the media about the DPRK in the west using outright fabrications as the basis for their thesis that it’s an awful place. like take Yeonmi Park spouting literal gibberish and yet getting taken seriously by western media - yeah mate, no one in the DPRK poops, that’s definitely a real thing and not a shitpost to make this website blush, thank you for printing it. it’s got its problems - how could it not, given the sanctions and the brutal war with the US - but it’s in a similar boat to most of the other AES states like Cuba, China, and Vietnam.
In addition to the wonderful write-ups and materials shared on the DPRK, some important context can be found on Season 3 of the podcsat Blowback, which also happens to be a super fun and informative listen.
A good deal of relation of hexbear to the DPRK is to underline that being critical of western news is quite important. The opinions about the DPRK vary a lot, but in general the user base thinks a country will never be just good or just bad. They are also aware of violence, i.e. the US having more than 1% of their population in prison (4 million) and a multiple of that in other incarceration/parole settings (and then you often are not allowed to vote anymore!), we do not say that to say actions of other states are not a problem, but to work out standards and to analyze how power of states is yielded.
We’re not, unless your idea of “Tankie” includes people with pretty severe critiques of both the SU and Current (and pre-Deng) China. There are a lot of MLs and various Mao-associated tendencies, but I’m a Luxemburgist (less keen on strict party control than MLs, more sceptical of National Self-determination), and I’ve seen Council Coms, Bordigists, Gonzalists, Trots of Every Stripe, and anarchists here. Even a few reformists. You’ll have a good time if you understand that we tend to take Communist and Socialist states as acting, however flawed, in good faith, and act similarly to members of all tendencies as long as they’re socialist, internationalist, and LGBTQ+ positive etc, and, though sometimes a good Trot joke is hard to resist.
The answer to both options is yes, we are.
We very, very occasionally end up with the same positions as the far right sometimes, though from vastly different principles. Most of us support, with caveats, both the Soviet Union and Current China, as well as other states like Cuba, DPRK etc. Additionally we generally take an anti-imperialist stance here. Which means our opinions on Ukraine range from “A plague on both their houses” to “Revolutionary Defeatism” to “Putin deserves the wall even more than Zelensky, but a fast peace is preferable, preserves what remains of some pseudo socialist currents in the Donetsk Republics, and more importantly weakens the USA.” Some are even more sympathetic to Ukraine, but acknowledge that NATO is not their friend, and that Ukraine has a very real fascist problem. We also have opinions on US politics that acknowledge Bernie Sanders as the milquetoast Social Democrat that he is and the Democrats as incapable of substantive reform even if Biden declared the DIctatorship of the Proletariat tomorrow. There is a substantial diversity of views there as well, though.
We meme a lot because we have a lot of injokes here, and it’s a quick way of getting across a point that’s been done to death, or quickly dunking on an opinion in a way regulars will immediately understand. Also, we’re a pretty chill and jokey community here even when struggle sessioning.
Thank you. Apologies, but there are a ton of responses here that answer my questions many times over and I can’t respond to each and every bullet, so I will zero in on the unique ones instead. In this case, I’m curious about this one, specifically for the DPRK.
I can see the reasoning for current China and the Soviet Union based on the principles of the ideology, regardless if they practice what they preach; but what are the things the DPRK is doing right in your opinion? What I see from my (apparently limited and one-sided view) is Kim, his cronies, military leadership, and the elite class living comfortable to luxurious lives while the common people are serving in the military or living peasant lives without access to proper nutrition, healthcare, and the convenience of modern technology. To me, these are caveats, which sound eerily similar to capitalism, so what is the good side?
Follow up question: Does it ever come to a point where the caveats far outweigh what aligns with your views (more bad vs. good)? And does that change your view and support of that specific country?
Thank you!
I’m…very critical of the DPRK personally. I think Juche as an ideology, while it has some interesting points, is pretty idealist and departs far too far from Marxist principles. And yes, the Kim personality cult rubs me the wrong way. That said the American Civic Cult gives me the same vibes. As does the Australian Anzac Cult, Britains hard on for Churchill and Nelson and the Royals etc etc
The DPRK has many flaws; it’s over militarised. Its inner cadre is insular and often slow to adapt. Its relations with China could be a lot better if they’d roll back on the Juche just a bit. There’s a nasty stink of Neo-Confucianism all over some of its political organs (but then, we might say that western communist parties often adopt some of the negative aspects of Christian ideology like millenarianism and purity cults.)
But it’s not the starving absolute monarchy often depicted in western media (though like Cuba it did have a fairly severe famine in the 1990s, after the SU fell and before it could re-normalise Chinese relations (the DPRK was on the soviet side of the split, if you recall). Kim is mostly a figurehead, he has power as does his family, but less than Stalin or Mao did, and those too were not the dictators people make them out to be, frequently losing votes and having preferred policies blocked by the rest of the party. The Kim family live privileged lives, sometimes spoiled lives, but no more than the US president. They don’t actually own all those palaces, and if they step too far out of line the Party won’t hesitate to take them away and find a third cousin to pick up the torch of Kim il Sung’s legacy.
As for the inner party, yeah, it sucks and I’d prefer Sankara’s approach of making their upper officials drive second hand 30 year old rust buckets and live in studio apartments. But then you have headlines in the west “North Korea so poor, their ambassador can’t afford a car or proper clothes.” The unfortunate fact is that appearances need to be kept up, and also, upper officials in any nation tend to work 80+ hours a week under high stress conditions where loss of acuity is not an option. I know we laugh at Biden and Sunak, but they (or at least their handlers) are actually terrifyingly smart people who can work crunch for years at a time without flinching. They need the comfortable offices, drivers, and business-class flights to do their jobs effectively.
Yes, it has a lower standard of living, but like Cuba, it can’t trade with anyone (and no, trade with China isn’t easy when a company that trades with the DPRK cannot, at any point in any operation, use a single Western financial institution, business, or NGO in any transaction (even those with non DPRK companies) without getting hit by the sanction hammer.) People there live ok lives, they eat regularly, they buy consumer goods, they go to their jobs, which sometimes suck. There’s a robust health and welfare network, there’s pretty good education, and while the military take up too much GDP, there is opportunity for economic expansion and it has in fact been catching up. It is fairly easy to get involved with local political committees and the average citizen has more control over local and even national policy than in western nations.
There’s an old joke. In the USA you can choose your party, but not the policy. In China, you can choose the policy, but not the party. The same goes for the DPRK. By the time an issue reaches a caucus, it’s been passed back and forth through representatives a thousand times, and every sector of society has had its say. The parliament is a rubber stamp because all the arguing happens at a lower level where people have more direct involvement. It’s still not perfect, or even good, but I don’t think it’s worse than a Parliamentary republic, and better than a Presidential one.
Defectors are unreliable because they’re often paid better the more outlandish their stories are, which is where we get people like Park talking about the one train that Korea has that they have to get out and pull in the winter and if you fall down in the cold they shoot you with an anti aircraft gun and send your family to the mines to pay the cost of the bullet. Many defect because they were smugglers or black marketeers who found themselves on the run, which is how they had the connections to cross the border in the first place. Others are disaffected military personnel, or cadre that lost a political infight and may have pointed critique that is at least worth trying to pick through. Some just watch too many bootleg shows, and those ask for repatriation more often than you might think.
I’ve actually had the pleasure of knowing a couple of North Koreans as casual aquaintances, and they’re normal, if somewhat insular people, who live normal lives. They laugh, they get annoyed, they have an unfortunate addiction to Chilean Tempranillos of dubious quality…
Yes, it does come to a point where I won’t defend a nation or group, somewhere not too far beyond where the DPRK is. Unlike others here I don’t offer Russia as it stands critical support, nor do I offer it to any nation that doesn’t at least pay lip service to Socialism. Something like Pol Pot I unequivocally condemn, as masking a murderous agrarian reaction in a red flag. There are (mercifully small) factions in the CPC that could move China in a direction I could not follow.
PatSocs, Nasbols, etc are also not deserving of critique. In fact my standards for non ruling parties are far higher than for ruling ones. After all, no plan survives contact with reality.
Of all the things i’ve learned about North Korea and its people from this post, a description of their wine tastes is the weirdest one. I can’t say i’ve tasted a Chilean Tempranillo, but I can’t imagine it being very good.
They are generally very good, south american grapes make the best heavy reds…just not this one.
I’ve mostly known Chile for their french grapes, but it checks out that a heavy spanish red would do well in some regions there. I’ll be on the lookout for one next time the weather allows for me to drink a heavy red, i can’t do it with this heat.
Yeah, Chilean Malbecs are my favourite wines, except for some Malbecs from a very particular part of Basque country where they don’t have the slightly muddy flavour you often get from French Malbecs (which is why they’re generally blended into a Bordeaux, but here in Aus we tend not to blend outside of a GSM.)
I count myself lucky because I live in a place that has a lot of autochtonous variety diversity, so I rarely drink any French grapes. That being said I’ve always been a fan of right bank Bordeaux, and those have malbec in healthy amounts, so I’m no stranger to it. Most of my experience with unblended Malbec comes from Argentinian ones though, and those can be hit-or-miss.
some links where people have written up stuff on the DPRK before:
it basically comes down to most of the media about the DPRK in the west using outright fabrications as the basis for their thesis that it’s an awful place. like take Yeonmi Park spouting literal gibberish and yet getting taken seriously by western media - yeah mate, no one in the DPRK poops, that’s definitely a real thing and not a shitpost to make this website blush, thank you for printing it. it’s got its problems - how could it not, given the sanctions and the brutal war with the US - but it’s in a similar boat to most of the other AES states like Cuba, China, and Vietnam.
In addition to the wonderful write-ups and materials shared on the DPRK, some important context can be found on Season 3 of the podcsat Blowback, which also happens to be a super fun and informative listen.
Here is a youtube video by some australian socialist shit posters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BO83Ig-E8E
A good deal of relation of hexbear to the DPRK is to underline that being critical of western news is quite important. The opinions about the DPRK vary a lot, but in general the user base thinks a country will never be just good or just bad. They are also aware of violence, i.e. the US having more than 1% of their population in prison (4 million) and a multiple of that in other incarceration/parole settings (and then you often are not allowed to vote anymore!), we do not say that to say actions of other states are not a problem, but to work out standards and to analyze how power of states is yielded.
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