What’s the fatality rate for right-on-green? That scenario always seems more dangerous to me than right-on-red unless you have a light where pedestrians get a cycle to themselves. You have the same danger with not seeing a pedestrian, but now you aren’t even supposed to stop first, just make the check and decision while moving.
At least in the UK, the pedestrian/cyclist green light turns green before the motor’s. So by the time the cars reach the crossroad, there’s already a stream of pedestrians to prevent the cars to go. So they are forced to wait until that stream is over.
That being said, if you’re not within the first stream, it’s still pretty dangerous.
There are two pedestrian crosswalks out of dozens in the town I live in that work this way. Confuses the crap out of the pedestrians and the drivers, as they aren’t expecting it to work that way.
All the other intersections are timed so drivers and pedestrians go at the same time. If we switched all the intersections to allow pedestrians to go first, I think that would be safer. Getting city council to do anything is another issue.
In the UK pedestrians will never have a green light while cars have a green light and the timings wait until pedestrians will have finished crossing before allowing cars. There might be some slow walkers or people who crossed without green (it’s dangerous but not illegal) but everything is done to ensure neither pedestrians nor cars are told to go while the other isn’t told to stop.
On a green light, pedestrians are not expecting the car to stop so would be foolish to walk in front of it until it does.
Bicyclists are another story. As a driver I wouldn’t turn across another car since I won’t be turning across one. However I will be turning across a bike lane so could I miss one? It does seem like a gap in practice with an increased risk
Pedestrians very often get the green walk sign at the same time as cars in the same direction get the green straight ahead sign that implicitly allows right turns as well. In that scenario, the cars are often located just behind the pedestrian’s peripheral vision, and the cars are looking up and ahead at the light (or maybe to their left if they were previously hoping to execute a right on red and waiting for a gap in traffic), so it becomes basically exactly what you were talking about with bikes. Cars turning across a “lane” of pedestrian traffic with neither party having good visibility of the other. There are a couple of solutions/mitigations in use for this problem, dedicated “all-red” pedestrian cycles, protected intersections that move vulnerable road users further forward to be more visible, and advanced pedestrian greens that make cars wait until pedestrians are already in the intersection and more visible before getting the go ahead. Or, if your city is like mine and car-centric, they might stick up a yellow sign on the opposite light post across the stroad that says “pedestrians yield to turning vehicles” in text that is just barely legible from across the street at an intersection that has audible wait and walk indicators for blind people who definitely can’t read that sign and will thus be endangered for not getting the memo (not that car drivers are reading it either, so several considerate drivers will wave the pedestrians forward, further confusing the right of way situation). Fun!
In short, every turn you make as a driver should be accompanied by a check for vulnerable road users like cyclists and pedestrians because our infrastructure will not necessarily put them in a place that is easily visible to you
In the UK when there’s a green man (pedestrian crossing signal) it means that all traffic is stopped, and (though not officially recommended) you could cross diagonally and it’ll be fine. In the US and some other countries, it doesn’t seem to have that meaning, so other traffic may still have a green light or be allowed to pass a red light where pedestrians are being told it’s safe to cross.
Pedestrians very often get the green walk sign at the same time as cars in the same direction get the green straight ahead sign that implicitly allows right turns as well. In that scenario, the cars are often located just behind the pedestrian’s peripheral vision, and the cars are looking up and ahead at the light
It seems to me that that’s the wrong way round, if there’s no pedestrian crossing it’s safer to cross when the traffic is moving from the left-right of you than in front and behind you.
My suggestion is that pedestrian crossing signals should stop all car traffic in the junction and if no signal exists the guidance should be to cross where the traffic is visible (left and right) not when it comes from behind you.
Obviously it depends on the junction, but for anyone who’s not familiar with UK crossings here’s a touch more context:
It’s not necessarily all traffic at that entire junction, just traffic going across that specific crossing point that’s guaranteed to be stopped. So if there would be the possibility for a turn onto a road that has a green pedestrian light either all the traffic going that way would be on a red light, or there would be a filter light where only the relevant traffic (straight or a turn) would be on red.
Pedestrians have the right of way and get the walk signal on the green, is it really that foolish? Also children, elderly, visually/auditory impaired people all also cross the street. It is 100% the responsibility of the driver to ensure the intersection is clear before traveling through it, this includes clear of pedestrians.
What’s the fatality rate for right-on-green? That scenario always seems more dangerous to me than right-on-red unless you have a light where pedestrians get a cycle to themselves. You have the same danger with not seeing a pedestrian, but now you aren’t even supposed to stop first, just make the check and decision while moving.
Drivers don’t t have to look left on right in green, so should naturally look in the direction they’re going, and thus see pedestrians and cyclists.
They also have time to spot them while waiting.
At least in the UK, the pedestrian/cyclist green light turns green before the motor’s. So by the time the cars reach the crossroad, there’s already a stream of pedestrians to prevent the cars to go. So they are forced to wait until that stream is over.
That being said, if you’re not within the first stream, it’s still pretty dangerous.
There are two pedestrian crosswalks out of dozens in the town I live in that work this way. Confuses the crap out of the pedestrians and the drivers, as they aren’t expecting it to work that way.
All the other intersections are timed so drivers and pedestrians go at the same time. If we switched all the intersections to allow pedestrians to go first, I think that would be safer. Getting city council to do anything is another issue.
In the UK pedestrians will never have a green light while cars have a green light and the timings wait until pedestrians will have finished crossing before allowing cars. There might be some slow walkers or people who crossed without green (it’s dangerous but not illegal) but everything is done to ensure neither pedestrians nor cars are told to go while the other isn’t told to stop.
All turns should be taught and enforced to be yields and performed at extremely low speeds.
On a green light, pedestrians are not expecting the car to stop so would be foolish to walk in front of it until it does.
Bicyclists are another story. As a driver I wouldn’t turn across another car since I won’t be turning across one. However I will be turning across a bike lane so could I miss one? It does seem like a gap in practice with an increased risk
Pedestrians very often get the green walk sign at the same time as cars in the same direction get the green straight ahead sign that implicitly allows right turns as well. In that scenario, the cars are often located just behind the pedestrian’s peripheral vision, and the cars are looking up and ahead at the light (or maybe to their left if they were previously hoping to execute a right on red and waiting for a gap in traffic), so it becomes basically exactly what you were talking about with bikes. Cars turning across a “lane” of pedestrian traffic with neither party having good visibility of the other. There are a couple of solutions/mitigations in use for this problem, dedicated “all-red” pedestrian cycles, protected intersections that move vulnerable road users further forward to be more visible, and advanced pedestrian greens that make cars wait until pedestrians are already in the intersection and more visible before getting the go ahead. Or, if your city is like mine and car-centric, they might stick up a yellow sign on the opposite light post across the stroad that says “pedestrians yield to turning vehicles” in text that is just barely legible from across the street at an intersection that has audible wait and walk indicators for blind people who definitely can’t read that sign and will thus be endangered for not getting the memo (not that car drivers are reading it either, so several considerate drivers will wave the pedestrians forward, further confusing the right of way situation). Fun!
In short, every turn you make as a driver should be accompanied by a check for vulnerable road users like cyclists and pedestrians because our infrastructure will not necessarily put them in a place that is easily visible to you
In the UK when there’s a green man (pedestrian crossing signal) it means that all traffic is stopped, and (though not officially recommended) you could cross diagonally and it’ll be fine. In the US and some other countries, it doesn’t seem to have that meaning, so other traffic may still have a green light or be allowed to pass a red light where pedestrians are being told it’s safe to cross.
It seems to me that that’s the wrong way round, if there’s no pedestrian crossing it’s safer to cross when the traffic is moving from the left-right of you than in front and behind you.
My suggestion is that pedestrian crossing signals should stop all car traffic in the junction and if no signal exists the guidance should be to cross where the traffic is visible (left and right) not when it comes from behind you.
Obviously it depends on the junction, but for anyone who’s not familiar with UK crossings here’s a touch more context:
It’s not necessarily all traffic at that entire junction, just traffic going across that specific crossing point that’s guaranteed to be stopped. So if there would be the possibility for a turn onto a road that has a green pedestrian light either all the traffic going that way would be on a red light, or there would be a filter light where only the relevant traffic (straight or a turn) would be on red.
Pedestrians have the right of way and get the walk signal on the green, is it really that foolish? Also children, elderly, visually/auditory impaired people all also cross the street. It is 100% the responsibility of the driver to ensure the intersection is clear before traveling through it, this includes clear of pedestrians.