Due to the severity of the situation and the fast flowing news cycle, we have decided to create a general megathread for discussion regarding the conflict.
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Why do Palestinians and Israelites hate each other?
Tl;dr Israel showed up and kicked Palestinians out, Palestinians want their land back. Ensue 80 years of complications
Also Israel has two means of aquiring citizenship. First is having Jewish ancestry. The second and more problematic is that anyone who converts to Judaism can apply in a slower process that grants them citizenship. People who aquire citizenship can then live there and gain govt benefits that subsidize living cost, in other words, govt sanctioned stealing of Palestinian homes/land. Thats why Palestinians say they often hear settlers with Brooklyn accents. People who live in places like NYC with high costs of living are basically given the option to have much cheaper housing if they convert and forget their morals about theft.
So basically Israel recruits citizens from groups of people who have financial incentives to move there and lack a sense of humanity to turn down “free stuff stolen from destitute opressed people” and thus you build a citizenry who is totally comfortable with this Apartheid/Genocidal bullshit.
There’s more than 2 ways to get Israeli citizenship.
Both of those fall under the “right of return” for Jews.
Non-Jews with permanent residency can become citizens after 3 years if they give up their previous citizenship. Meanwhile, Jews are allowed to be dual citizens. For example, some Druze in the Golan Heights became Israeli citizens that way, particularly due to the Syrian Civil War.
Also, in 1952, Israel passed a citizenship law that gave citizenship to anyone who had been a national of the British mandate in 1948, had registered as an Israeli resident in 1949, and hadn’t left Israel before claiming citizenship. So about 170k Arabs were granted citizenship, while the ~720k who fled or were expelled during the war were excluded, although they expanded eligibility a bit in 1980 to include Arabs who had returned to Israel after the war.
It’s even simpler
Israel showed up and kicked the Palestinians out, those either unable to or unwilling to leave are now being subject to ethnic cleansing.
Or even simpler: Israel’s sole purpose is to exterminate Palestine.
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Israel also wants to keep the support from the US so they are cleansing slow enough that the US won’t care.
Like when Russia creates it’s breakaway regions as an excuse to take a chunk out of a country. No one cares when they did it to Georgia or when they are doing it to Moldova but with Ukraine they became too visible and got a pretty big backlash. The trick is to not do crimes too visibly.
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And there wasn’t a place called the United States of America until 1776?
Because Israel took over more land that was fully inhabited by the Palestinians (for the second time)
Assuming you’re arguing in good faith, which is a huge assumption, the answer comes down to negotiating power. Egypt was able to get the entire Sinai peninsula back during these negotiations. Israel never fully gave up the Gaza strip, hence the second part of my tl;dr above: “Palestinians want their land back. Ensue 80 years of complications”
Hey fella: they “showed up” from where, and why?
Have any other questions?
There were always Jewish people in the area who were often treated as second class citizens by a Muslim majority, btw.
When the west promised Israel to the Jewish people around the globe and the population already living there, many other Arab/Muslim countries were also already gladly exiling their Jewish population as well.
It wasn’t “just the west”.
With the promise of a state and Zionism as a religious driver they stomped the people already living there, although these people were simultaneously promised their own state called Palestine.
While many Palestinians do hate the Zionists and vice versa, framing the conflict as between two powers that hate each other for religious reasons or racist reasons or what have you is what leads to such terrible “Two religions fighting again for the billionth time!” analysis.
Israel is a modern colonial state. While most outright colonist countries are no longer around, Israel is the exception. One of the reasons why it’s allowed to be the exception is because it’s a stronghold for American interests in an incredibly important region - whoever controls the world’s oil supply, controls everything that depends on oil, which is a LOT of things. Lately, it’s also increasingly a weapons manufacturer and cybersecurity base - their technologies are tested out on Palestinians as if they are guinea pigs, and then these systems are sold to various countries for use in their own populations. In general, Palestinians today have low qualities of life and the amount of territory they control shrinks by the year as Israel shoves Palestinians out of their homes and puts Israeli settlers in those homes instead. Naturally, the Palestinians are not happy about this at all, but resistance is difficult even when you’re not surrounded on all sides (Gaza has the sea, Israel, and Egypt bordering it, and Egypt is currently sympathetic to the Israeli side due to a coup that put Sisi in power; while the West Bank has Israel and Jordan, and Jordan is also sympathetic to Israel currently).
Palestine wants a state for themselves, which is a fairly reasonable thing to want. Israel absolutely does not want a two-state solution let alone to give Palestine all its land back. The two are therefore at an impasse - there’s a fundamental contradiction here that cannot be solved by some middle of the ground solution. Palestine has attempted on numerous occasions to try and resist, both peacefully and violently - both methods get them killed in the thousands while the West says nothing, because again, it’s extremely important to have Israel in the region as a Western imperialist outpost. Have you ever noticed that the only time the phrase “… has a right to exist”, it’s always in reference to Israel? Few other nations seem to have this “right” in the West’s eyes. Yugoslavia sure didn’t. Neither did the USSR, or for that matter modern-day Russia given the rhetoric going around a year or so ago about how they wanted to subdivide Russia into a dozen oblasts.
There are other powers in the region that are against Israel, with the weaker ones being Syria and Lebanon, while the strongest is Iran. Up until fairly recently, while Hezbollah (a sort of state-within-a-state military force separate from the rest of Lebanon but also integrated into it) has scored a few points on Israel in the past, they were broadly speaking outgunned by Israel. Additionally, Israel has nukes, which made a war to actually overthrow Israel essentially impossible without the risk of nuclear bombs being dropped on Beirut, Damascus, Tehran, etc. This has changed in the last few years, due to a mixture of Israel (and the West broadly speaking) becoming relatively weaker because so much military aid has been sent and destroyed in Ukraine, and Iran and friends becoming stronger. The threat of nuclear annihilation still exists, and it’s one of the major problems still for the anti-Israel resistance, but given Hamas’ victory in Gaza a week ago, there is blood in the water and the sharks are coming.
I hope this all shows that thinking along the lines of “X hates Y and so they’re fighting” obfuscates a lot of what’s actually going on geopolitically. It’s extremely important to say that the fact that Israel is a Jewish state doesn’t mean that they have, according to various right-wing conspiracy theories, some kind of outsized influence over so-and-so countries. Israel does have an influence over various countries because their propaganda department is very active in the West to shut down anti-Zionist (which is unequivocally NOT the same as anti-semitism) viewpoints, and the aforementioned cybersecurity and weapons development programs, but this is a two-way street. The West needs Israel. Israel needs the West. The United States is essentially what has kept Israel alive for the better part of the last century.
This isn’t to say that Zionist and Islamic beliefs have no impact on the calculus here - they have a lot to do with it, in fact - but merely to say that this isn’t just some inherently religious war.
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What you say it’s not wrong, but you completely ignored the unilateral expansion thing. There’s no free territory, for Israel to expand, someone else has to leave.
If the United States starts expanding into Canada, there would be international outrage.
Israeli settlers need to give back the land they stole.
Imagine what a court in your country would decide in this case:
A man breaks into a house, kills some of the residents, and locks the rest in the basement. He then lives there and raises a family in this house. Decades later, his children still live there, and there are still prisoners in the basement, and they are routinely abused. The children obviously know all this.
Do you consider that all of Israel?
Yes. You can make an argument that some of the land was legally purchased, but even at the time, this was part of a plan of colonization and ethnic cleansing, so it’s essentially property owned by a criminal enterprise or its members. Palestinians also deserve restitution for decades of oppression. So IMHO all property owned by Israel, any Zionist institution, or any Israeli found guilty of taking part in the oppression may be seized.
The vote to create Israel included many countries, but they didn’t let the Palestinians vote. Curuoislu both Inida and Pakistan (who had recently gotten independence from Britain and had a similar psrtiton happen to them) both voted against it.
I dont think an argument that it was legal could be made if they didn’t bother letting the people who were living there vote on it.
Palestinians want freedom and sovereignty, the Israeli government wants the exact opposite, and most Israeli people either support the government or don’t care what happens (particularly because they get
free real estatesettlements out of it).the British took over Palestine from the Ottomans, suppressed decolonization movements, then partitioned it to form Israel. during the formation of the Israeli state, Palestinians were slaughtered and driven out of their homes in an event known as the Nakba - which translates as “The Catastrophe”. since then, there have been a series of wars resulting in the slow but steady encroachment of the Israeli state - look ip maps of the region over the decades - and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. in such an atmosphere, nothing but mutual hate is possible.
The British did not partition Israel. A civil war between Zionist settlers and Palestinian Arabs broke out in the wake of the UN partition plan vote, the British noped out, the Zionists declared independence and fought & won a war against the Arab League.
Hmm, why would Palestinians hate European settlers that stole their land via the imperial edict of Britain? 🙄
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No, we can’t… because it’s not. It’s only “complicated” due to pro-Israeli propaganda and nothing else - it’s no more “complicated” than Apartheid South Africa was.
There’s only two teams. The imaginary side you made up in your head doesn’t exist.
It’s Hamas or Israel. Pick one.
Almost a troll-like insistence on lack of nuance to an extremely complex situation
The invocation of nuance is a trick to get you to not take a stance that matters and to stay trapped in your own head cooking up imaginary solutions that can never and will never happen.
The actually nuanced position is to support Hamas despite its flaws, because they’re the only material force that is fighting for Gaza.
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Hamas is resisting Zionism, not Jews. They’re pretty explicit about that.
So if you oppose race/religion-based tribalism you support Hamas, because they’re the ones opposing it.
I chose “or”.
“European settlers” in the sense that they hadn’t been in Israel since the Romans kicked them out in '65 for causing too much trouble with all their messiahs and religious zealotry.
2000 years!
They hadn’t ever been in Israel, they were born and raised in Europe by parents that were born and raised in Europe by grandparents that were born and raise in Europe etc. etc. They were Europeans, complete with white skin and European culture and European language.
This wasn’t refugees returning to their home. It was settlers invading nonwhite people’s land and stealing it for themselves.
The only Israeli citizen I know was born in Scottsdale, Arizona.
Yeah, if we stretch this logic even further down, we all get to claim our ancestral land in Africa from 200 millennia ago.
The Netherlands had better watch out… my ancestors came from there about 300 years ago, and that automatically gives me the right to rape, torture and murder my way through Antwerp!
Every Russian in Lithuania better pack their bags. I’m tearing up my Pennsylvania birth certificate and returning home! I can’t wait to open the first Primanti Bro’s in Vilnius.
Anrwerp is Belgium, though ;)
Pshhh… there’s a difference?
They speak more elegant… or French
Yes, all ancestral land claims are ultimately at least a little bit silly.
Yes, the vague equivalent would be for the Native Americans to reclaim the United States via superior force ~1800 years from now.
Not even Native Americans!
It would be the equivalent of people with extremely diluted ancestry and no connection to any tribe, white people who practice a Native religion and speak an extremely deformed English dialect of some Native language but are otherwise just US Americans.
A third of Israelis are (family of) refugees/emigrants from the middle-east or north Africa.
It’s not a ‘white european’ country, which you’d know just looking at them.
Imposing simplistic American notions of race on a complicated conflict is stupid and embarrassing.
Yeah, now. That’s because they imported Jews from everywhere they could to become Israeli. It started as a European settler project.
But if you look at the positions of power, the government and businesses and celebrities, you’ll see mostly white faces. Israel definitely has a white supremacist bent to it - you don’t think an Ethiopian Jew will ever be the prime minister do you?
America’s white majority is going to disappear too, but you don’t think that will actually end American white supremacy right?
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You still see white faces in high places. That’s why Europe and America are Israel’s greatest supporters - they want an ethnosate in the middle east.
That’s why you aren’t going to ever see an Ethiopian Prime Minister. Now you’re right, race isn’t exactly like it is in the US. It actually reminds me more of colorismo in Latin America, where racial prejudice is based more on how dark your skin is than being clear cut along racial lines. Light skinned Asians get to have this privilege in the racial majority.
But there is a racial component to Israel’s apartheid regime and its unlimited support from Europe and America, and you have to acknowledge this.
You didn’t answer any of the questions. And I’ll add one more. Who are these high profile white people? But I’m more interested in the other questions first.
Out of interest, would you describe Romani people (pejorative ‘gypsy’) as being white?
I’ll be honest. Most Americans don’t even realize Roma are a real group of people. They hear gypsy and think crystal balls and magic. The population is much smaller and more integrated in the US than in Europe so many have never met someone from that group. But I mean if you want the honest answer, a person that looks white in America is considered white until a reason is given otherwise. Maybe a name. Maybe a symbol. Maybe they say something. My youngest son can pass for white easily. Asheknazi jews are white by current american standards, but I don’t see white southern baptists churches needing armed security during service. And I’m one generation shy of when Jews weren’t allowed in to certain places.
Race is weird in America. And Americans are very touchy about it on both sides. I think it’s because it’s built on a house of cards, but so many fundamental things revolve around it. Racial justice on the left. Umm… other things on the right. Like racism is definitely real. I can make it through police checkpoints without getting stopped, while my wife gets stopped every time. But Americans like to pretend there is some true hard standard when it is all a wobbly social construct.
If they were given their own settler colony and started being treated as an equal by all the other white countries? Yes.
I wouldn’t consider a European Jew before the formation of Israel to be white, but they’re sure as fuck white now.
If someone of white European heritage burns down a synagogue frequented by what you consider people of white European heritage, would you still consider that racist given they’re the same race? Or would you consider that less racist than someone burning down a church frequented by black people?
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HMM WHY DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR?!
History repeats, I guess.
Keep screeching for nuance while Israel bombs evacuation routes and refugee camps with the full throated support of Europe and America.
It was their turn to be the boot. /s
While I won’t argue in support of the amount of force Israel is using, I am curious what you believe they should do. For this current situation and the whole situation at large.
Return the land they stole and reform the single Palestinian state so they can peacefully coexist within Palestine.
Which land is that, exactly?
And who is responsible for that, eh? The same “western civilization” that is now using Israel as a kapo state to do it’s dirty work in the middle-east, perhaps?
Its almost like you want to collapse all Jews and the settler colonial state of Israel into one group to fit a simpler narrative of what’s happening.
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-- Atallah Abu Al-Subh, former Hamas minister of culture
--Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council
-- Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Hamas leader
--Hamas communiqué
Well Israel is a settler-colonial project propped up by a global military empire who wants a military ally/outpost in the middle east, and that settler-colonial project is ripping people out of their homes to give land to settlers.
Palestinians are the ones getting ripped out of their homes, having legal rights stripped away from them, and ultimately being corralled into what are fenced-in, open air concentration camps as Israel continues expanding its borders. This is what has resulted in conditions like what we see in Gaza, which is currently one of the highest population density places on earth as a result of Palestinians having more and more of their land colonized and the families who weren’t murdered in ethnic cleansing campaigns had to live closer and closer together as they were driven out of their homes. And as more and more people keep getting shoved into smaller and areas of land as Israel closes its borders in more and more via military occupation, Israel uses its control of the land surrounding these settlements to restrict food, medicine, and electricity from getting to Palestinians. Gaza usually only gets 4 hours of electricity every day despite living in an arid climate where not having air conditioning can result in death from heat stroke on particularly hot days. ~95% of the water in Gaza is not safe to drink, so death from starvation and dehydration are both incredibly common. And with extremely limited access to medical resources, very few people live to/past middle age, with the average age in Gaza currently sitting around 19 years old. Living conditions are so bad that suicidality among children is incredibly common, with over half of people under 18 reporting that they have no will to live when surveyed. And when Israel is not expanding its borders and settling more land, it preys on the desperation of the Palestinian people who have had their lives ripped away from them by employing them for cheap labor to make the lives of the settlers more comfortable. Those are the Palestinians who also have citizenship in Israel so that they can work in Israel, but even with citizenship they are second-class citizens without access to most political and legal rights.
Israelis don’t have any particular reason to hate Palestinians, they’re just doing what every settler-colony does and they keep experiencing blowback from the people they are colonizing. All of the propaganda about thousands of years of Holy War over a Holy Land is just a founding mythos used to obscure this colonizer/colonized relationship by pretending that these are two groups on equal standing that are bickering with each other because they just can’t get along.
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Most normal people don’t. But the political situation of “we were here first” vs. “This is now the land of Israel” causes whatever you see happening nowadays.
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Hamas and other groups surrounding the area, for example the Hisbollah from Iran, hate Jewish people and see them as literal enemies of Allah. Since Palestinians in Gaza want to end being controlled by Israel, Hamas was able to get in power. They want a pure Muslim country, with Israel gone, and some Palestinians and Palestinian activists around the world agree with them. Though, not all. Some want a two state solution.
The current leader of Israel and some of the Israelis didn’t accept the borders to the Palestinian areas in the past and today. Although they claim to not occupy Gaza, most people disagree since they control the access to the place (together with Egypt) and especially Gaza was left in a poor state because of it, basically depending on the mercy sometimes and sometimes not shown by Israel. Some Israelis, again, don’t agree with this and want a two state solution.
If you look at a map you can easily see the problem. Gaza is caught in a tiny corner between Egypt and Israel. The other part of Palestine is the Westbank. With Israel taking up more and more space in the middle over the last ~70 years Palestine is now divided.
This was the original two state plan btw:
The hatred between the two groups grew in part because they are uneven. And there were several wars and other violent incidents between the two states. Israel is getting supported mostly by the west, and therefore has a huge military force. Palestine is getting supported mostly by some Muslim countries but since access is difficult they don’t have a big military, instead rely on groups like Hamas.
Israel grew in part because Jewish people all around the globe were killed and exiled throughout history and fled to Israel. The west basically promised them Israel as compensation. But there was always a Jewish population in the area. Even before the conflict.
Also, Jerusalem is a whole other can of worms since both groups want that city very very much.
Beneath it all lies a complicated history of the whole area before it was Israel/Palestine (you would have to start with reading up on Transjordan or Kerak, going all the way back to the ancient world). And to make it even more complicated, the internet is littered with propaganda, fake news and one-sided reports from both sides.
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thank you for the info, will check those links for more information
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Usually it’s oil. But this time it’s airable land and water.
*arable
It’s an option. An outpost in the Middle East that serves as a vanguard to easily start proxy wars with the oil countries. Then deploy boots on the ground while hiding behind plausible deniability. “We just supported our allies.”
It’s like War on Terror, an excuse for the corporations to get more dollaroos. The problem is not that they are running out, the problem is that others still have some.
Zionist colonisers from Europe forced Palestinians from their land 75 year ago and have continued to inflict death and misery on those that remain.
It goes back a bit further than that, right?
The Jaffa riots, for example, were back in 1921. Palestinians rioted and killed about 50 Jews, and British police killed about 50 Palestinians while trying to restore order.
You mean the world finally allowed the Jewish people to establish a country in their ancestral homeland (which has maintained a Jewish presence in that land for the last 4000 years) and the Arab world continually rejects a partition plan that would allow 2 states for 2 people, instead resorting to terrorism and a repeated call for the extermination of the Jewish people, resulting in Israel having to do what it must to protect its interests and the interests of the Jewish people everywhere.
Let’s not forget - the people referring to themselves as Palestinians could have had a state any number of times in the last century, but it’s not really about that, it’s about killing Jews. If a state is what they wanted, they could have had it by now:
San Remo conference decisions, 1920 League of Nations decisions, 1922 Peel Commission proposal, 1937 UN General Assembly proposal, 1947 Israel’s stretched out hand for peace, 1948 Israel’s offer of fixed official borders, 1949 Israel’s stretched out hand for peace, 1967 Begin/Saadat peace proposal, 1978 Rabin’s contour-for-peace, 1995 Barak/Clinton peace offer, 2000 Sharon’s peace gesture, 2005 Olmert/Bush peace offer, 2008 Netanyahu’s invitation for peace, talks, 2009 Obama/Kerry contour-for peace, 2014
Oh look… a genocide apologist has shown up.
What do you mean, “the world,” apologist? Antisemitism is purely a western invention - don’t blame the entire world for that which white people did.
Also, don’t pretend that Zionism is (somehow) a Jewish idea - the idea originated in Christian countries that wanted to dump Jewish people in Palestine due to… drumroll, please… the west’s antisemitism.
Do tell, Clyde… which part of the world’s murderous antisemitism is the root cause of the idea of a modern-day Israel even making sense to many Jewish people, eh?
Stop pretending that Christian Zionism doesn’t predate Jewish Zionism - that cat is out of the bag, Clyde.
Oh, look… the genocide apologist is pretending the side that has been engaging in genocide somehow isn’t and that it’s the people experiencing genocide that is the cause of the fucking genocide.
They don’t it’s a bit to keep the west from crowding their tourist spots.
Yeah, these attacks and bombings are just an elaborate stage play to keep out the tourists… 🤦♂️
What’s the matter with you?