- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmit.online
The Egyptian government has announced a ban on the wearing of the face-covering niqab in schools from the beginning of the next term on 30 September.
Education Minister Reda Hegazy made the announcement on Monday, adding that students would still have the right to choose whether to wear a headscarf, but insisted it must not cover their faces.
He also said that the child’s guardian should be aware of their choice, and that it must have been made without any outside pressure.
Agreed. I don’t understand why this is so difficult a concept for people who claim to be trying to help women. Banning certain head garments because they’re “symbolic of women’s oppression” is just another way of restricting women’s choices and doesn’t promote their independence at all. Just let women choose how to dress themselves, same as men, it’s really not that complicated.
Problem is while other hijabs might be voluntary I don’t think anyone voluntarily wears a niqab
I agree that this aspect of it makes this issue very complicated. I wore a hijab aged 12 (out of choice, but really it was religious indoctrination) and took it off at 17. Almost every other Hijabi and Niqabi I know doesn’t really want to wear it or wishes it was not part of their lives or a religious obligation. A large number of said women eventually took it off. And of course a handful wanted to wear it and enjoy the look of modesty.
However, how does banning the Niqab help any of these women? 😬
One argument my partner made while discussing this is that it could help some women forced to wear it to be able to take it off… But I doubt that is the situation in Egypt given the culture, traditions, and law.
I know several women who wear the niqab by choice, and in the face (pun not intended) of social pressure.
That completely misses the point. The issue is that women should be allowed to wear whatever they want, same as men do. Banning a garment, even when no woman elects to wear it, serves no purpose except to restrict women’s choices.
not trying to shit stir, but can men really wear balaclavas anywhere they want?
I’ve seen plenty of delivery people wearing them during the colder months in my city. Since they aren’t worn for religious reasons, I suspect most men don’t wear them indoors, but I’m unaware of any law that prohibits them from doing so. Sure, maybe there are some high-security places where you wouldn’t be allowed to wear anything that covers your face, but that applies equally to men and women.
Covering your face in public space is banned in France.
I’m not sure what your point is, as the bans in question were clearly sprung from concerns about Islamic face coverings in particular. They may have used generalized language in the laws to mask that focus, but it’s clearly there. Am I missing something here?
If their guardian decides, its not “their choice”'. How are you even agreeing with the statement above?
I’m talking about women, not their guardian. I don’t think parents should be able to force their children to wear restrictive clothing, unless there’s some sort of medical reason for it. Certainly not for religious reasons.
The statement seemed to me to say it should be their choice and not a “guardian”. How are you confused by the response above?
Exactly. No one is saying those women should be forced to wear a Niqab by society. We are actually saying the exact opposite, Egyptian women should be more free to take the hiajb or niqab off if they like, and not have to live with legal or societal consequences.
There are feminist organizations already working on that. It’s not like the only two choices are a ban or no ban.
That’s one way to solve the issue in a method that works, rather than going around to destroy all “symbols of oppression”. Like go ahead and bash at all these symbols, but make sure you don’t bash women along with it.
My understanding is that feminists themselves are split on this, sad as that is. At least with respect to the ban in France, I know some feminists have argued in favor of a ban on the hijab, exactly using the “symbol of oppression” argument. I don’t pretend to know what the divide in opinion is among feminists, percentage-wise, but clearly a significant contingent of them are supportive of this bullshit.
Again, I don’t understand why this is such a difficult concept, but it apparently is. That, or my standards for human intelligence are just too high. Probably the latter.
One reason may be that Hijab and Niqab are politicized. Culture wars are happening on the expense of these women who just want a normal life and basic human rights.
Edit: I also just read the news article on Aljazera Arabic and one thing I did like is that they emphasized that all female students are free to wear Hijab as long as it’s their choice and they are not being forced by parents, but there is a full ban on face covers for school-aged girls. This changes my view on a bit, I think up to a certain age it should not be okay to come to school with a totally covered face (unless it’s for some reason necessary). However, once you get to high school level or bans in the workplace, it gets problematic.
I would still have much rather seen schools take a bigger active role in the lives of students who wear the Niqab and discuss the issues with the parents.
This is the beauty of the French system, it’s all religious paraphernalia banned in schools.
I feel like France is whacko. Religion is a normal part of human existence. Why would I prevent children from displaying these sentiments or developing parts of their personality that have a spiritual or religious connection? What kind of jerk would I need to be? 😬
The problem isn’t any spiritual or religious connection the children form. The problem is that most monotheistic religions are very rigid in their exclusive prerogative of interpretation concerning all things fundamental and truth-related.
Having more than one exclusively-dominant religion represented in any one space must lead to unsolvable conflict. Contradicting absolutes cannot tolerate each other.
Given that a functioning state must necessarily assume the role of a sovereign, banning religion from public spaces is pretty much the only solution for preventing religious conflicts.
I agree with what you say about religion. However, I don’t agree that bans are useful or effective. Doesn’t seem to be “preventing religious conflicts” all that much imo.
It’s not about preventing religious conflicts. It’s about not giving those conflicts a forum at school, the place where children learn to be tolerant from people who aren’t their potentially fundamentally religious parents.
But that was the last sentence in your previous comment.
My previous sentence sets the principle, your answer rejects the principle on an all-or-nothing basis, my following comment clarifies the application of said principle within the comparatively narrow setting of schools.
I’m not sure what’s left unclear.
Sometimes I feel like when a discussion reaches this level it’s no longer “good faith” sounding.
That’s like saying slavery is a normal part of human existence because we’ve been doing it for thousands of years.
Why would you want children indoctrinated into a system of beliefs that reject reality? Only a jerk would want that.
Is it really the same? Slavery vs spirituality and following a religious path? 😬 Does it cause the same type of harm? How are these comperable?
But yeah, I do agree that just because people have done soemthing for X years does not make it legitimate.
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The problem is, you know most (80-90%) of these girls are forced by their parents to wear religious clothing. Not doing so will result in beatings or, when they’re older, being kicked out of the house.
How are you, as a society, going to protect these children? Just sitting behind your keyboard philosophizing that you shouldn’t restrict their free choice does not protect them at all, as history proves.
Stop being cheeky, it’s not that cute. I am not society and it’s not my job to protect these folks. I have always been of the opinion though that Western nations should not be taking in immigrants from Islamic countries that practice these strict religious codes that are incompatible with our mores. For the families that are already there, they’ll have to deal with them via the same CPS systems they currently have in place. The parents will have to learn to assimilate and adopt Western morals surrounding child rearing or lose custody of their children. Maybe the French government could run adverts encouraging people to adopt Muslim girls so they don’t all wind up in group homes. It’s a shitty situation, born of a culture clash that could have been avoided.