I hear all this talk about women’s safety when out on the streets (a real issue which I do acknowledge) and how we as men need to do our part to make sure they feel comfortable, safe, and that we hold other men accountable when doing the same thing. Absolutely have no problem with this. But one of the main issues men have is a rise in male loneliness and the expectation to be the one to take an active role in interaction especially those that are romantic in nature. How are we supposed to take the lead and approach while keeping women safe at the same time when approaching her could make her feel uncomfortable, even in safe environments such as social groups, bars & clubs, workplaces, etc?
I found a couple of videos which explains why men are out here street harassing women. The link to this video there’s a section called “bottom line”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZiaTDxJ-rQ
The guy here basically goes on to explain that a woman is not gonna make a move on him, that he needs to show her he’s the man and have a wolf mentality. Obviously, the way he worded this is just wrong but this is the mentality I see from men who are trying to be the take charge types. I don’t think this kind of thinking comes from nowhere. Men already deal with the expectation to approach and make the first move. If you put that much pressure on men, it’s gonna make them wanna find communities that will tell them how to do exactly that. Guess where they turn to? The redpill/PUA. These are the communities that teach them the alpha-beta nonsense, how they got ideas that “a woman loves a confident masculine man, show her that by letting her feel your strong presence” and they learn messed up tips and tactics to do exactly that, which then leads to men making women feel uncomfortable.
For anyone that watches the 12 hour video of a woman walking down the street, within those hours, a lot of men came out to talk to her. I don’t think these men would be doing that if they didn’t face any expectations to be the pursuers in courtship. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A&ab_channel=RobBliss
Over 90% of women don’t initiate interactions with men first & often expect them to do it, and I think this is a huge problem that’s contributing to both men & women’s issues. Safety is a big issue for women on the daily and I think male expectations in dating are a big factor for that. The expectations for men to do something first will make women not take an active role, resulting in most men feeling undesired (& also lonely tho male loneliness is a multi-faceted issue), and when they decide to do something about it, they turn to communities that will teach them strategies beyond the mainstream to give them that success, which then turns into having a lot of men out there street harassing women. It doesn’t just have to be street harassment. This can also happen in social groups, friend groups, bars and harassment can very much happen there.
So the first step here is for society to stop expecting men to make the first move and not just that. Stop expecting them to read signs (especially signs women gives as an invitation as her “first move” as they’re subtle, not obvious), stop expecting men to start flirting, and stop expecting men to be the first ones to initiate conversations about sex. We should start telling women to be more active (and obviously active) and do some of these things to take the pressure off of men.
This doesn’t mean that dating should completely fall into the woman’s hands. What I am saying ultimately is to not have expectations of any gender to bear the heavy burden of doing everything. Once we get rid of those expectations, then we can start implementing some gender neutral courtship rules that allows men and women to take active agency without much pressure. But I don’t believe we as a society (given our current practices) should partake in active agency with dating until we’ve gotten rid of those expectations.
Taking the expectations off isn’t going to stop SOME men from being psychos, there’s always going to be bad apples in society that makes things uncomfortable for everybody. But I don’t believe women are getting approached only by these types. Chances are, they’re getting approached by men who are dealing with societal expectations of being a man (this doesn’t mean u should entertain him. If he makes you feel unsafe just do what u have to do to gtfo there. Just cuz men have the expectation doesn’t mean u throw away your need to feel safe. If no man is allowed to approach on the streets, then any man, even if he is decent and friendly in their approach, should be doing that as that is street harassment and would make you feel uncomfortable.). How is it that the average man can go a day without having a woman or another man bother him, but women can’t go a whole day without having any man try his shot with her? This all goes back to the expectations we have of men.
We should not be doing any active courting in dating nor give out any dating advice until we have reached a point where society doesn’t expect men to be the initiators all the time. That means adults telling boys that they don’t need to take up that role and that it’s okay for women to make the first move. That means women telling their female friends to not expect guys to make the first move and do the heavy lifting, especially in the beginning stages.
We have already been told not to assume that a woman wants us to approach just because she’s dressed a certain way. We have already been told that we shouldn’t be out here bothering anyone on the streets. We have already been told that if we get told “no” or get a “no” signal, we accept it and move on. Absolutely fine with that. But we cannot have these rules and then conform men to the expectations of being the pursuer all the damn time and not expect that most of these interactions will turn into street harassment, especially when these men turn into martyrs when they do go to TRP/PUA communities that will tell them practical yet messed up tips that just end up making women feel unsafe. This is just backwards and will only ensure that this toxic cycle continues.
No, just no. This is a typical “forever alone” take, and the proposed solutions are unrealistic at best. Not gonna happen.
By being gentlemen about it. Be confident in our approach, but be respectful when turned down.
And understand that many women react the way they do because of a series of negative experiences they’ve had. It’s tragic that bad men ruin it for the good ones. But that shouldn’t mean the good ones should give up.
Because there are so few places that teach positive and respectful ways of dating. I really think this is an issue primarily of education (by other men and by male communities, as well as parents). Most boys are left to their own devices when it comes to this, which means peer groups, social media, and Hollywood. Is it any wonder they don’t learn healthy behaviors?
TRP and PUA at least offer solutions that work to some extent, unhealthy as they may be. Where are the healthy alternatives?
Not gonna work. This is too deeply ingrained in our nature, which evolved over millions of years. Sperm is cheap, and pregnancy is still a heavy burden. Most women are always going to be more careful about selecting who to have sex and relationships with. Take it as a fact of nature.
I’m not saying it can’t change, but don’t build your dating strategy on expecting it to change. That’s how guys end up forever alone.
and
Then enjoy being forever alone. Most men are going to pass on that, because it is unnatural, and the urge to have sex and to be in a relationship is simply too strong.
Your proposed plan of action is entirely unrealistic, and I would say even damaging to boys and young men seeking healthy dating strategies that work.
Yes, it’s a quagmire navigating all the conflicting advice, which is why I say that more experienced men showing others the way is so important.
I’m all for being able to accept a ‘no’ and moving on but as I mentioned in my comments, most women aren’t gonna outright say no and instead find socially acceptable ways to exit a conversation. Many guys aren’t aware of what’s really going on here and just end up confused. In the worst case scenario, they’ll continue trying to talk to her cuz they felt they didn’t ‘try enough’ or in the best case scenario, they just leave things alone and go back to doing their own thing.
I agree with that as well but one question. Do you agree that women can and are able to make the first move? Cuz my position is I think they do, but many of them won’t make that first move and often times expect men to do it. So even with places to teach positive and respectful ways of dating, that pressure for men is still going to be there and I don’t think the side effects of it are going to be pretty. Cuz if they’re the ones who are still expected to approach, they’re inevitably gonna make women feel more uncomfortable even if they mean well. But we already got there in the first place because of what I’ve described. This was mainly the reason why I suggested getting rid of these expectations first. I can go on and explain in detail exactly what men should do to approach a woman, start a conversation with her, read the signs and move on. But it’s not easy taking that much emotional toll from this many rejections (which if it builds up can lead to a point where they lash out at another rejection.), it’s also not easy for men to gauge weather they are successful or not which can result in them reading situations wrong, coming off a more aggressive than intended, or even into searching for methods to achieve said results (even if done from immoral means). If men don’t feel expected to live up to these standards, then they can follow these healthy dating advice without feeling those same pressures I was talking about, which could mean women won’t have to put up with much aggressive creepy behaviour they see from men like they currently do now.
Many men are lost when it came to mainstream dating advice as it doesn’t deliver results. The only dating advice that’s delivering results now are advice that tie our self worth into arbitrary values i.e if you are a man and can make a lot of women have sex with you, then you’re valuable. If you’re a woman and you can withhold sex for 3 months and make him fall in love with you before the sex, then you’re valuable. Adversarial dynamics.
On a side note, I actually do know some healthy yet practical dating sources that I’ve learned from so they are out there, but TRP/PUA/FDS material are in heavy abundance and not much channels that discuss the nuances in dating. But they’re not gonna do much as long as men feel they have to bear the burden of doing the heavy lifting initially all the time.
I’m not talking about dating strategies here, I’m talking about expectations. I’m all for men to make the first move, to initiate flirting, and even to escalate to sex. Having the skill to do that is very valuable, but the expectations men face to even live up to that are gonna lead to some unfavourable outcomes for both men and women. In terms of meeting women, it can make men to be aggressive in getting a number just to build options, and will often try tricks to ensure a woman has sex with them in a somewhat manipulative kind of way. It makes it physically and emotionally unsafe for everybody involved. It wouldn’t even matter if there are healthy alternatives out there if they’re still expected to do the heavy lifting initially.
And healthy dating advice that’s currently out there are geared towards masculine men and feminine women, leaving the more feminine men in the dust as being in a position to lead for these types of men is exhausting, speaking from experience myself, and finding women who are okay with being in that leading position is very rare.
I had to make another post on this due to character limit, but yea I personally think it’s too risky putting out healthy dating advice for men as if we’re still expecting them to do the heavy lifting, women are still gonna have to put up with us approaching them even at times when they don’t want us to, which means we could indirectly be encouraging harassment in these cases. And considering dating has a of factors, it’s quite risky to do that if men feel like they gotta make something happen or if they don’t and relax a little, then nothing will happen. And if they mess up on it, the woman ends up being very uncomfortable or he may say or do something the wrong way that really messes up the interaction.
Let’s say a woman decides to make the first move on a man given the current practices we have established. Because the average man doesn’t get that much attention, he’s gonna latch onto any positive affection given to him, making him clingly and needy which can make it unsafe for her. If the man is secure enough to handle a direct approach from her, fine, but many men feel lonely so they’re not emotionally developed to handle that (which again I link this back to male expectations.).
Me personally, I don’t think we can have a conversation about healthy practical dating advice if we’re still encouraging practices that potentially put women in a position where she constantly has to deal with men approaching her which is where most harassment cases comes from and why they feel perpetually unsafe.
This is primarily the reason why I suggested we should get rid of expectations for men first. You get rid of the expectations, they don’t feel pressured, which means some of the lengths they would go to they won’t need to go that far anymore as they feel they get enough attention & validation, enough feeling of being desired, so they can take it easy. This shouldn’t stop them from taking their shot, if they see someone they find attractive they should shoot their shot if they want something to happen, they just won’t feel that intense pressure to be doing so all the time.