- cross-posted to:
- 196@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- 196@lemmy.world
Agree with you in general, but I think a lot if people here are not really informed what differences there are materialistic ideologies.
Yes, Stalin bad.
But Guevara is not Stalin.
Marx is not che
Engels is not Marx
China is not communist.
Marxism is not materialism
Socialism is not communism
Also the amount of people bringing the “the 3 times people tried socialism were bad, so the whole ideology must be bad” argument are way to high IMHO.
How many times was capitalism tried? How many times it worked out? Is the USA a “functioning” state with all the oppression, racism, greed, invading other countries out of monetarian interest and environment destruction?
While I agree with you, that oppression is bad, no matter what the oppressor calls himself, we should talk about policies without resorting to dogmas and generalising people in favor of fear the hegemonic class is propagating to stay in power.
Based.
They already have lemmygrad.
Honestly, I don’t think we need them here.
tankies more like no thankies
Thank fuck. I thought Lemmy was some ultra militant leftist hellhole before the shift.
I don’t like extreme radical left any more than extreme radical right.
Fuck Che Guevara. Read a book.
This comment section is really something uh
Tankies on their way to explain why teaming up with the Nazis to conquer Poland is actually based and totally in line with Marxist philosophy.
Can you give an actual example?
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I got banned from lemmygrad for saying acab means all cops lmao
they yearn for the glorious people’s boot
500 years ago these mfs were the pro monarchy serfs
Meanwhile anarchist organizing doesn’t have cops, it has Agents of Community Defense who definitely aren’t cops!
I have nothing against anarchists, but you need to see past slogans to be anything but a useful idiot to neoliberals.
I mean any person or entity that enforces oppressive laws is a bastard. The government of China is far from some sort of benevolent state.
Just removed like 40 comments and banned a buncha people.
holy shit they kicked the tankies out of 196
based
Based mod team
I do my best :)
based. also hiii moss :3
Hiiii :33 howru
im good! glad u got made a mod here as well!
I am too! I love contributing to communities that I like!!
thank u for ur service :3
lmao I moderate a website I’m not a firefighter
x3 small deeds still matter
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finds social media developed by tankies
looks inside
finds tankies
fr I’m down with having a good old purge eventually but noone should be surprised
What are some good actual communist lemmy communities that aren’t supporting the fucking capitalist imperialist russian invasion?
look for anarchists if you desire a classless, stateless, moneyless society.
communism has been coopted by auth apologists infatuated with the color red.
But what if I’m not an anarchist? I like Marx but not Lenin, so I can’t be an ML either.
There are an infinite variety of flavors of socialism, at some point you gotta learn to find folks you don’t disagree with on anything too important. In my experience anarchists are generally chill.
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anarchism acknowledges Marxist theory, but rejects the need for a state/beaurocratic apparatus, as it is considered to be fundamentally oppressive.
the state is an abstraction of capital, and cannot liberate the working class, as it exists to perpetuate its own hegemonic existence, our subjugation.
governance need not be heirarchichal; I promote collective mutual determination as an egalitarian system by which society can organize.
can’t dismantle the master’s house with the master’s tools
governance need not be heirarchichal; I promote collective mutual determination as an egalitarian system by which society can organize.
I don’t. I don’t think all hierarchies are unjust, I evaluate them based on their effect on the world. If a hierarchy can solve a problem better, it’s the preferable solution.
Everyone believes they are capable of behaving reasonably themselves. If they think laws and police are necessary, it is only because they don’t believe that other people are. But if you think about it, don’t those people all feel exactly the same way about you?
But what if we all have a different idea of what behaving reasonably means?
Anarchists argue that almost all the anti-social behavior which makes us think it’s necessary to have armies, police, prisons, and governments to control our lives, is actually caused by the systematic inequalities and injustice those armies, police, prisons and governments make possible.
That’s silly. Systemic inequalities don’t make people park their vehicles on the bike path or murder their wife because they think she cheated on them. If anarchism is all about thinking people are angels unless bad, bad oppressive systems make them do evil things they couldn’t do on their own then I don’t think we’ll ever get along. It’s alternate reality and an incredibly naive way of looking at the world and human nature.
Edit: could you kindly not respond to this? I don’t have an option to silence this thread on my end, and don’t want to hear about it any further.
Edit: could you kindly not respond to this? I don’t have an option to silence this thread on my end, and don’t want to hear about it any further.
So I have to ask… Why would you respond and then deny someone the same respect?
I promote collective mutual determination as an egalitarian system by which society can organize.
In practice, direct democracy? Or, how would that work - how would we organize society? Positions would still need to be held, no? Roles appointed, decisions made, lines drawn. No one can be up-to-date on all matters in their local nor global environment. And certainly not at the same point in time. How would anything work with any cohesiveness?
Sorry to be so dismissive, I’m actually kinda curious on your thoughts. Only ways I see are AI governance or a hive mind. Not sure about either tbh.
anarchism acknowledges Marxist theory, but rejects the need for a state/beaurocratic apparatus, as it is considered to be fundamentally oppressive.
Acknowledges Marxist theory as much as acknowledging Newtonian gravitational theory may be a way to put it. Most of the ones I know either accept Marxist general theory as a whole, non-critically, and the rest are anti-communist/anti-marxist idealists, as much as any fascist would be. Because the true essence and reason for the existence of fascism is anti-communism.
There are many social relations that are oppressive, why limit it to state? Parents are oppressive, teachers, professors, bosses, cops, military higher officers, spouses, parents in law, … prison guards … they are all oppressive. Is it just the state? Is it a different class of people who oppress from those being oppressed?
the state is an abstraction of capital, and cannot liberate the working class, as it exists to perpetuate its own hegemonic existence, our subjugation.
Between the late 1800s and early 1900s the state became an insurer of labor law and justice, the welfare state was born, rights to pension, an 8hr day, sick leave, vacation, overtime pay, were all provided and were promised by the state. So we can say the state backed off and became hostile to capital. Between struggle (labor syndicalism) and the capitalist state there was a dialectic transformation, the social democracy was born. Today the state has absolutely surrendered to the powers of the banking financial world system, made out of a handful of banks and financial institutions mainly based in NY, London, Frankfurt, Paris, maybe even in HKong, Tokyo, to a lesser extent. All states owe to private global markets to such a degree that just one or two clicks down on their bond ratings and they are bankrupt and in the hands of IMF and other bankers to implement the most vicious neo-liberal reform anyone can imagine.
This means that when leninists propose on taking over a state that just means removing it from the markets and sentencing the population to starvation and misery. “Abolishing the state” is just as suicidal. Should there be a thing like political responsibility for genocide proposed by pseudo revolutionaries, who want to enforce their fantasy on people already suffering because of capitalism?
governance need not be heirarchichal; I promote collective mutual determination as an egalitarian system by which society can organize.
As long as you speak of “a system” you imply, like it or not, a centralized system, a system that supervises whether the system is implemented correctly or not. That constitutes an authority. Whether this authority and enforcement is conducted by “anti-authoritarians” who as a minority forced their terms and conditions on a society, we are speaking of a revolutionary vanguard, an authoritarian force over the entire society (under the state and within state borders).
By the way, the collapse of the Syrian state had a gradual effect of Turkey moving sourth, Israel and Libanon moving further east, Iran moving west, I am uncleat of Jordan is taking a piece of the pie, and some Iraqi authorities are eyeballing the Kurdish management of some areas they would like to grub as well. So by abolishing a state these days the remaining states in the globe legitimize the neighbors all grubbing a piece without anyone being a state to protest. Assad’s only friend is too busy fighting the entirety of NATO playing a game on the heads of the residents of ex-Ukraine.
can’t dismantle the master’s house with the master’s tools
As long as your focus is to destroy and dismantle instead of constructing an alternative and an escape route from capitalism you will be condemned by history as a force of nothing beneficial to humanity.
As long as you preach -isms- from a high tower looking down on people without ideology, and you refuse to accept that the dialectic between leninism and libertarianism has already materialized, that more than a million people have been living OUTSIDE of capitalism, in autonomous communities, for nearly 30years (this next new year’s eve), decide in their communities EVERYTHING about their own lives, mostly using consensus, and their federation (2 levels) is designed to serve the community not to dictate to the community, you are more authoritarian and stuck up than you really think. Now these people have liberated themselves from capitalism, they live outside it, they are unaffected by it, other by having to fend off some para-military attacks here and there 2-3 times a year, their values and principles are even more strict than the early 1900s CNT constitution, and they laugh really hard and stick a finger up to all revolutionary vanguards, but you keep speaking hypothetically, what if society did this and that and the other thing.
If you want to be heard, you should be looking up to indigenous peasants, farmers, not down. If you want the residents of the favela to follow bureaucrats and academics to social change, you are in worse shape and dillusion than the average tankies. If you want children industrial workers in SE Asia to look up to your ideology and rhetoric, to buy your story, I assure you they think you are dumber than they are.
Who gives a flying ** what “anarchism” acknowledges.
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I don’t know how any of that applies to what I said here.
Edit: I skimmed through the text on the first read because I was sleepy. After reading more carefully I guess you’re agreeing with me somewhat: yes, the necessity for certain types of organization in specific situations is why I dislike anarchism.
I don’t know why a certain ineffective administrative model would have to be coupled with a more equitable economic model. Although I didn’t want to argue that point, rather express a preference.
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I disagree that he ever did anything approaching Marxism. His writings and his actions are pretty distant from one another.
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communism has been coopted by auth apologists infatuated with the color red.
Which happened almost instantly. I don’t have much hope that other radical leftist movements will fare much better.
I’m on the FMHY instance and the only political ideology community that’s been showing up in my feed has been Anarchism, so it’s probably the instance to join if you’re libleft and don’t want to deal with Auth shit.
there’s literally a community called “moretankie196”, they should go infest that one instead
Can we have something like tankiejerk here? I seriously liked browsing that sub after a bad day with the red fashs.
Vaush moment
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Tankies are not communists. They are blanquists at best.
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Your comment has the “Karen is a racial slur” kind of energy.
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And “liberal” is the Tankie go-to for “those we dislike.”
Just like it is for the ring-wing fascists.
Well then, what do you call people stopping workers from seizing means of production while at the same time proclaiming themselves to be champions of the working class?
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Damn, you call Lenin a liberal?
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What you described was a liberal. People who virtue signal to garner support but do nothing for the working class.
Yeah, Lenin: the counterrevolutionary bastard that seized the power for himself and dismantled all real worker power.
anti authoritarian*
you’re telling on yourself
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left unity is tankie gaslighting.
auth socs put anarchists against the wall before the dust of revolution settles
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I don’t want unity with tankies. We aren’t fighting for the same thing.
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Hello actual communist here. Commies rock, tankies sucks. We really don’t need or want authoritarian behavior in communist communities.
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no state has achieved the liberation of the working class, because the function of the state is to expand and perpetuate its hegemonic power and influence. state authority is fundamentally oppressive.
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The State power- as a lesson of history- Cannot be wielded for good. It is a corrupting power with its own momentum and incentives.
This is precisely why any positive accomplishments of the Leninist states were undone by corruption, bureaucracy, and power-seeking.
Because the very structure of a state by itself makes it not only possible, but inevitable.
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What if class was to be determined by both economics (exploitation) and power (oppression), therefore in the USSR all the leninist reformists did was to exchange the wealthy upper class for the all powerful upper class. So at best Leninism is a bad reform of capitalism.
No state can ever achieve anything more than the liberation of the capitalist class. The only liberation for the masses is to seek alternative ways to self govern and abolish any centralized power structures from reforming again.
This is another reason why the rest of the left calls Tankies Red Fascists. So much behavior is shared.
Like the arrogant mislabeling of everything they dislike as “liberals”.
tankies aren’t communists lmao, stay mad
uh oh you said the forbidden word, here come several of the world’s most unfuckable people to tell you about how anti authoritarians are the real fascists and if you’d just spend half a year fully immersing yourself in russian state propaganda, you’d get it too.
oh no they’re gonna totally own me with their terminally online amount of factoids while telling me how Genocide Is Okay When We Do It, Actually
magats, but make it left
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don’t care + didn’t read + stay mad + L + ratio
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That’s a nice link you provided. Quick search shows it’s from same people (Ben Norton) as Grayzone, which is described in wikipedia as such:
The Grayzone is an American far-left news website and blog founded and edited by American journalist Max Blumenthal. The website, initially founded as The Grayzone Project, affiliated with AlterNet before becoming independent in early 2018. A fringe website, it is known for misleading and sympathetic coverage of authoritarian regimes. The Grayzone has denied human rights abuses against Uyghurs, promulgated conspiracy theories about Venezuela, Xinjiang, Syria and other regions, and promoted pro-Russian propaganda during the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Grayzone has been described by Commentary as a propaganda shop devoted to pushing pro-Assad, pro-Maduro, pro-Putin, and pro-Hamas narratives.
This is some truth social level shit
Take something antifascists and edit to be … still antifascists.
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ITT: a bunch of lying ideologues that deny basic historical realities like the deliberate engineering of the holodomor or the brutal repression of dissent in soviet states
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A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is
What dialectics does to a mfer
undefined> he political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution
I think the history has shown this to be false
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Yes, they were both bad. Enemy of my enemy is not necessary my friend.
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So you agree that the premise that the state would just wither away is false?
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Please, the liberals in this thread don’t even know what an Engels even is.
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300 Comments already. Oh my god! Lol.
Gotta love it