• Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    What Israel is doing to Palestine today is exactly what America did and is doing to their indigenous population. Why do you think they’re allies?

    • Dkarma@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Why does anyone think Israel was there first??? Lmfao. Their own Torah says otherwise.

      “God gave this to us” isn’t a legitimate argument.

    • gh0stcassette@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 year ago

      I mean, the US sucks, but they don’t just support settler colonial states for its own sake. They support Israel because it’s strategically useful to have a US friendly state in the middle east that’s small enough that they will basically do what we say (unlike Saudi Arabia). Also a significant portion of Republicans in congress think that Israel/Palestine being controlled by Jews is a necessary precondition for the Rapture. The US is more indifferent to the genocide of the Palestinians than anything, which imo is just as bad, but it’s important to look at the material causes for things instead of just saying “these two countries have similar ideologies so they’ll be allies”.

      • Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        All of that is true AND they have an ideological solidarity. Think of it like this: If there was a genuine landback movement and the Illegal Occupation of Palestine was seen as what it is, then people are going to start looking at the Americas and noticing similarities. For a country that was built on the same settler colonial genocide, claims to be democratic when it’s clear they’re not, and subjugation of minorities. Oops.

        • Narauko@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Every square inch of land on earth has “changed hands” so to speak, multiple times by multiple peoples, mostly non-peacfully. How far back does a “land back movement” plan to go? The only fair option would be to DNA test bones from before the last glacial maximum and find descendents with the highest genome similarly and reshuffle all existing populations back based on their earliest ancestors. Or move all humans back to Africa and leave the rest of the world to the native wildlife. Or is it just the US and Canada because they were the most recent? Will we include Mexico and make them give the country back to the Aztec, or do they get a pass because Spain isn’t considered as bad as those pesky Brits? Do we try and find populations of tribes conquered and replaced by the Aztec?

          Do we have the authority to freeze all national borders as they are right now in perpetuity to preserve national and racial identities? Are you in favor of the world going to war against Russia to prevent colonial genocide against Ukraine? What do we do with the current peoples existing on their lands now? Do we break every country on earth up into ethnic tribal lands, or City-States? European colonialism of Africa and the Americas was broadly terrible at the time with many lasting issues, but it’s not exactly unique in human history, so I am honestly curious what the end goals look like.

          • Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            How far back does a “land back movement” plan to go?

            Chief, I’m not reading whatever genocide denial you’re about to write after this. We’re talking about a genocide so big and widespread that it not only put the holocaust to shame, but was literally the thing that directly inspired the nazis to do it.

            • Narauko@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Not sure where you get genocide denial out of what amounts to “humans have been genociding each other since the Homo genus common ancestor split off”. I am asking if anyone actually expects any country on earth to decide that decades, or more likely centuries, in their past they conquered the land they now claim from another people group and now we feel bad about what our ancestors did so we are giving the country back to the most direct descendants of that group.

              Are there actual expectations that the US is actually going to give everything or anything east of the Mississippi back to the native tribes, and/or Texas back to Mexico? Do we expect Canada to give BC back to their indigenous tribes? Obviously current relations with both groups need to be fixed because there are ongoing issues, nor should we celebrate the atrocities that happened during any of the colonial movements.

              The Americas are also different from the colonialization of Africa, Asia, and the Middle East because the colonists moved there and stayed there instead of setting up exploitation of resources to send back, thus allowing “decolonizing” of those places to happen. And then decolonizing caused further problems by the colonizers drawing borders on their way out. This isn’t to advocate that they stayed colonies, nor do I think these places would have peacefully self-assembled into their own countries if Europe had just dropped everything and left. Human nature would have still had different land and resource wars happen as the native populations filled back in the power gaps.

              Genocide is still as bad now as it was then, and even less acceptable because of our modern and “enlightened” morals. This applies to all ongoing genocides and ethnic cleansing attempts. I’m saying the cat is out of the bag on this though, and no government realistically fears any land back movement causing them to support any other country’s existence.

              • Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                Not sure where you get genocide denial out of what amounts to “humans have been genociding each other since

                👋

                • Narauko@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Ah, yes, I understand. I did sadly expect there to be nothing articulable backing up this nebulous land back idea beyond apparently a general “US (or maybe just people of European descent in general) bad, and so we must somehow undo centuries of colonization by just giving some undefined land back to undefined people, which is totally possible because sovereign countries voluntarily give up their territory all the time”. I thank you for the enlightening discourse on this topic.

  • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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    1 year ago

    What matters isn’t who came first. What matters is that no one has the right to expel a human from a land they’re living in. That is the core of the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

    I am pro Palestine, but have no issue with the increase of Jewish migrations in the 19th century. The problem is not Jewish migration. It is the fact that Israel expelled Palestinians from their homes, murdered them, suffocated them, and made their lives miserable.

    And this is the same thing that was done to the native people of the modern day Americas.

    • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      This is an honest question, is Wikipedia just wrong on that? Because there they write that Palestine also expelled all Jews and that they moved to Israel for that reason (because they weren’t allowed in Palestine). And also they write that Hamas specifically want all Jews to be gone.

      If Wikipedia is wrong, where do you get your information from?

      • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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        1 year ago

        Please feel free to ask any questions! I am happy to answer them all

        Can you please cite which part of Wikipedia is saying this?

        “Palestine” and “Israel” are two names for the same region, so it doesn’t make sense to be expelled from one into the other. I think there must be a misunderstanding here.

        I bet this is referring to certain Arab States expelling Jews during the creation of Israel and the British occupation of Palestine, as a retaliation (which was horrible and stupid and I fully condemn it). But keep in mind this is well into the conflict, when Zionists and British occupation were already well into committing heinous acts and massacres, and that this is Arab States who sympathized with Palestine, not Palestine itself.

        What I was referring to was treatment of Jews in Palestine before the Zionist project.

        As for Hamas’ anti-semitism, I think some background information is important here.

        When it was founded, Hamas was not a popular group by any means. Popular Palestinian resistance groups at the time were socialist and progressive, such as the PFLP and other members of the PLO. Hamas was founded as a Muslim brotherhood affiliate, and its charter had many anti Semitic references.

        Israel saw this as a huge opportunity, and it propped up Hamas while fighting off other groups. Fast forward to the 2000’s, every Palestinian resistance group was left defeated, and Hamas was left as the only group left fighting. Palestinians had no choice but to support Hamas.

        This was a major change for Hamas. It saw hoardes of Palestinians join its ranks, and most were not ideologically aligned with them. There are even Christians fighting among its ranks. This caused an ideological shift within Hamas. It was even reflected in its new charter in 2017, which dropped anti-semitic rhetoric and said it is fighting against Israel, not because of its religion, but because of the Zionist occupation. You can find this charter translated online easily.

        Since then, many Hamas officials reiterated their position that they are not fighting to expel Jews, but against Zionist occupation.

        Palestinians today see Hamas as a vehicle for their liberation, and not as an ideological alignment. But even then, most of the people in Hamas do not hold anti Semitic opinions anymore, and we should keep in mind this major shift throughout its history.

      • TheSanSabaSongbird@lemdro.id
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        1 year ago

        Wikipedia is kind of wrong in the sense that there’s always been Palestinian Jews.

        The issue is that due to Zionism, a ton of European Jews moved into the region starting at the turn of the last century and accelerating following the Holocaust.

        Said Jews then set about building a thriving western-style industrialized democracy that was opposed at every turn by an Arab and Islamic population that opposed its very existence on what can only be thought of as religious grounds.

        All of which can only be taken as an indication of how deeply corrupting and counter-progressive are virtually all forms of institutionalized organized religion.

        Fuck all of them. Organized religion sucks ass and should rightly be seen as a vestige of the past.

        • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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          1 year ago

          Said Jews then set about building a thriving western-style industrialized democracy that was opposed at every turn by an Arab and Islamic population that opposed its very existence

          I am pretty sure that they were concerned about being expelled from their homes and massacred, and not because they hated “thriving industrialized democracy”.

    • ThatFembyWho@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 year ago

      Didn’t Arabs and Palestinians just flat out refuse to coexist with a Jewish state from the start? The international community proposed a solution and they refused to accept it.

      Certainly if they chose to fight, and lost, then they have to face the consequences which might include losing their land.

      That’s hardy unprecedented, the very city I live in was largely founded by seizing lands from the British during the American war of independence, because they lost…

      I would say while yes it’s “wrong” to kick someone off their land, both parties have to at least be reasonable and willing to compromise when you have a complex ethnic and religious issue. Otherwise conflict is inevitable.

      None of which is to excuse any war crimes committed by either side. I just think it’s more nuanced than “israel bad apartheid state”.

      • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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        1 year ago

        Didn’t Arabs and Palestinians just flat out refuse to coexist with a Jewish state from the start?

        “coexist with a Jewish state” is a bit of a contradictory statement. Arabs coexisted with Jews fine prior to the Zionist project. A Jewish state is by definition a state exclusive to Jews. That’s the opposite of coexistnece by definition, and yes that is exactly why Arabs (Muslims and Christians alike) refused it.

        Certainly if they chose to fight,

        Resist*. they chose to resist occupation, expulsion from their homes, massacre and genocide.

        fight, and lost, then they have to face the consequences which might include losing their land.

        Ahh, so if someone fights you for your land, destroys your home and genocides your people, then they’ve earned it?? Well I should not be surprised that someone who lives in a nation founded on genocide thinks this is okay.

        yes it’s “wrong” to kick someone off their land, both parties have to at least be reasonable and willing to compromise

        “hey man, I know I just took over your home and burned your family alive in front of your eyes. But you gotta be reasonable here and be willing to compromise!”

        What more of a compromise do you need beyond coexistence? That’s all Palestinians have asked for, and Israel continues to deny them basic rights, no matter how peaceful they are.

        And I end with: Israel bad apartheid state. It is truly that simple.

        • ThatFembyWho@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          1 year ago

          Ahh, so if someone fights you for your land, destroys your home and genocides your people, then they’ve earned it?? Well I should not be surprised that someone who lives in a nation founded on genocide thinks this is okay.

          Nice try putting words in my mouth, but I never said any of this was “OK”. It doesn’t have my “blessing”, I merely gave my observation grounded in reality, of how the world works. Hell no, if it was up to me, everything everywhere would be resolved peacefully, fairly and with diplomacy, not violence.

          Honestly given your tone and snide remarks, I suspect you are too emotionally invested on this topic, for whatever reason, to have a rational discussion.

          But either way, the ability to occupy and defend land will remain the determining factor in maintaining sovereignty, now and in the future. You can’t count on the international community, and you can’t count on what’s right or just. ( call me a pessimist, I’ll agree :)

        • Basuliic@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          But there are Arabs even in military right now so you are wrong, learn first then judge.

            • Basuliic@lemm.ee
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              Jewish state is by definition a state exclusive to Jews. That’s the opposite of coexistnece by definition, and yes that is exactly why Arabs (Muslims and Christians alike) refused it.

              • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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                How does the presence of Arabs in Israel’s war machine disprove that? You didn’t answer this question.

                There were Jews who fought in the Nazis ranks. Based on your ridiculous logic, the Nazis are inclusive of the Jews (obviously incorrect because your logic is flawed).

                There were black people fighting in the US armies as well, even during Jim Crow era.

  • dlok@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Where is a good place to start to learn about this conflict. I have no idea who is in the right here.

    • somenonewho@feddit.de
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      I understand and appreciate you trying to learn. I think one of the issues why nobody can really point you to a good resource is that there are no 100% neutral resources that document “the conflict”. Even just where/when you start something like a timeline can be biased.

      Keeping all that in mind I have found a video that gives a short simplified summary of the base history.

      https://youtu.be/1wo2TLlMhiw?si=_ANEgker8DzQZQxR

      I liked it (might be part of my bias since I like crash course). But I’m sure there are mistakes in there and as above some details/framing might just be due to biases of the author’s/presenters etc.

      • dlok@lemmy.world
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        Yeah definitely a problem finding truly unbiased information. I’m paranoid my whole world view is shaped by western rule even though there is more free speech here than anywhere else… or is that idea also propaganda lol

        I will give that a watch when I have some time later thank you.

        • The Stoned Hacker@lemmy.world
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          Tbh this gets you down a very weird rabbit hole, especially if you’re in tech. When you start to look at cybersecurity and the direction it’s heading, a lot of cutting edge stuff uses a zero trust framework. cybersecurity as a field has realized that information and data is so ubiquitous at this point that it cannot be trusted at all and has to be authenticated and checked at every step. That’s real defense in depth there; making sure that every level independently audits the information it uses within the context it needs.

          But speaking as someone studying cybersecurity and is getting entrenched in the field & community, once you learn how much you can trust trust you really get a baseline level of paranoia. And to be honest, in my opinion the only thing to do is embrace it. It’s difficult and you’ll probably want to fuck off and become Amish, but once you see information as just information to be used, consumed, manipulated, and shared as needed the possibilities really open up. The future is only going to be more information and data dependent. Being able to intuitively tap into that is like a super power.

    • clanginator@lemmy.world
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      If you want a book, 100 Years War on Palestine does an excellent job going over everything up to 2017.

      Very in-depth, full picture of everything that’s happened from 1917 (what just about everyone considers to be the beginning of the modern conflict), including errors and crimes committed by both sides. The author is Palestinian and obviously not neutral, but is far from extremist, and comes at things with a historical/academic rigor.

      There are many other books/resources of course, but at least as far as getting a decent idea of what actually happened thus far, it’s a very good history of the conflict, major players and the geopolitics associated.

    • BreakDecks@lemmy.ml
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      Neither party is in the right. Israel is a violent apartheid state, and Palestine is large ruled by a terrorist organization. Both Israelis and Palestinians have the right to exist, but neither side’s leadership respects each other’s existence.

      The victims in all of this are both the Israeli and Palestinian citizens, so taking a side isn’t really a sound option. I am failing to see anyone who aligns as pro-Israel or pro-Palestine make coherent arguments about what happened this week. The only reasonable alignment is to be anti-war, anti-terrorism, and anti-apartheid.

    • comfy@lemmy.ml
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      Honestly, trying to find a definitive ‘in the right’ of any large-scale conflict is tough, almost moot. Especially since moral values like ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ are subjective, and that small groups of powerful people may not represent a whole. Complex reality doesn’t fall neatly into these ideals of right and wrong.

    • oshaboy@lemmy.world
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      There’s an old crash course world history video about it

      Edit: Oh someone already linked it.

    • Basuliic@lemm.ee
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      The one who lives civilian and not murder infants and not spending all money on rockets instead of developing own cities and culture. Oh, and not claiming wrong claims, not deceiving others. They are terrorist, lyers and complete garbage just as Russians and Iranians are right now.

      Arabs came to those lands at 600 year while Israely ancestors were there from 10000 b.c.

    • RedReaper
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      1 year ago

      Of which the Israelites are believed to have branched out from/are descended from

      • gun@lemmy.ml
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        Zionists are basing their irridentism on the Torah, and from what I’ve read, the Canaanites existed in the area before Abraham was given the land as a promised land.

        • RedReaper
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          Something tells me that the Torah isn’t exactly a reliable historical source.

          The Cannanite - Israelite connection is suggested by modern achaelogical information which I take as a little more reliable.

        • RedReaper
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          Got any sources for that? Since I can’t seem to find anything that supports that claim outside of religious texts

      • pingveno@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Or just regular ol’ love. Not that rape wasn’t (and isn’t) a part of genocide, slavery, and other atrocities.

        • Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de
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          1 year ago

          White US Americans. If you talk about your “heritage” in Europe, people will consider you clinically insane and avoid you like the pest.

    • comfy@lemmy.ml
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      It’s very narrow-scope to frame this conflict as just about one attack at a music concert, and furthermore to think that a decades-long invasion, colonization and blockade shouldn’t be compared to other acts of colonialism.

      Also, please read the community rules before posting, there are only two of them.

  • So you’re people are saying native Americans have every right to kill, maim and rape settler-colonialist Americans? And that they’re all legitimate targets, since they’re all settlers?

    I get it.

    Edit: OP didn’t say that. People on Twitter did. I didn’t separate that. It’s an emotional topic, I have friends who are directly affected by HAMAS atrocities.

    • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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      So you’re saying native Americans have every right to kill, maim and rape settler-colonialist Americans?

      Where did OP say this? It is a bannable offense so please point out where, as I don’t see it.

    • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
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      I see you made an edit, so I’ll respond to it here.

      While no one should have the right to rape anyone or murder innocent people, the only one to blame for these atrocities is the Israeli state. They are keeping millions of people in a concentration camp, massacring them slowly every day, destroying their homes, cutting off supply lines and giving them just enough living resources to experience slow death. They burn their children alive. Their soldiers brag about raping Palestinians.

      So then if those people lose it and retaliate, who are you going to blame? Those trapped in the concentration camp and chose to resist? Or the ones doing it to them?

      And in reality, despite all of this, Hamas has been far more humane in treating Israelis than Israel is with Palestinians. They protected their hostages, and have a history of doing so. They give mothers and the elderly special treatment.

      If you are upset about rape and cold blooded murder, look no further than Israel. If you’re outraged about Hamas, who’s not even a fraction the concern that Israel is, your priorities are not right at all.

    • kemsat@lemmy.world
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      They have. The issue is that their country was drawn up, by Europeans, without the consent of the people that were already living there. So the Palestinians, rightfully, don’t want any Israel to be there at all, on account of it being on land stolen from them.

      I know a lot of the world is European living in stolen lands, but, surprisingly, none of the rest of the people give a single shot what happened in the last 500 years, they simply just want the intruders gone.

      • gh0stcassette@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        Imo the whole “let’s give Jewish people a state after the holocaust” thing was a good idea, but they should have put it Germany. Germany were the ones who actually Did the holocaust, therefore there’s some argument to be made that they were entitled to German land, you could consider it a form of reparations. There was no argument for Jewish people being entitled to Palestine because their ancient ancestors lived there like 1800 years ago or whatever

      • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        the settlement started before British support which came later. It’s super complicated.

        edit: reasonable overview on Wikipedia of events leading up to Israel actually https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

        Bastardised simple summary is

        • Europeans treat Jewish people like shit for thousands of years
        • creates support for Jewish sovern state
        • languishes a while but antisemitism gets worse
        • in typical European fashion it is decided to just start settling where other people already live and force the existence of a country
        • ww1, Britain and France decide they know how to do a middle east. Results show typical commitment to stability and fairness.
        • settlement is supported by various and sundry European powers inc German Reich in lead up to and during ww2 because everyone hates Jewish people and wants to foist them off to some other, preferable brown skinned, person’s country.
        • after ww2 everyone eventually gets mad at the results of this sensitive and thoughtful plan, including European supporters, neighbouring countries, Palestinans, and many Jewish people. Fear and hatred fuel dominance of increasingly aggressive right wing political parties.
        • everyone except the USA that is. Their government has a blast supply weapons after Britain and France wash their hands and claim guiltlessness.
        • land grabs and oppression intensifies
    • Unaware7013@kbin.social
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      Because they don’t want it, simple as that. Why do you think they’ve been illegally stealing Palestinian land and bulldozing their homes for illegal settlements for decades?

      • deegeese@sopuli.xyz
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        The people under apartheid aren’t accepting their place? Shocker.

        Israel will never know peace while they continue to oppress Palestinians.

        • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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          Israel won’t know peace if they stop either. How did the US and Canada solve ‘the problem’ with the natives?

    • theneverfox@pawb.social
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      The same reason why in the US we have people attacking trans people (even when they’ve literally never seen one in person) and why our monopoly laws have gone from “chop them up for the common good” to “you better stop it or we might levy a symbolic fine”

      The political window has been shifted so far right that the left’s position is “we need to be nicer to the people in Gaza, but really carefully since they’ll subjugate us if they have the chance”

      It’s not an accident, it’s a small group of people with a lot of money who are investing it in hijacking discourse for their own power.

      If you get on tv and start pitching socialism, you’re instantly dismissed as a radical. You can’t even have the conversation - people don’t understand what that means and will instinctively recite nonsensical talking points, because they’ve been fed those for so long it would take an intensive college course to unlearn enough that they can have the actual conversation of “would this work better”. The vast majority has internalized the idea that “raw dog capitalism is the only feasible system”

      It’s the same with Israel. They’ve been fed propoganda so long that you can’t have the conversation - they’ve internalized the idea that Gaza is a bunch of animals who want to kill them, and the furthest left thing you can pitch to them is “well, maybe we should improve their situation economically, but we have to be careful not to let our foot on their neck slip off too fast”

      Fun fact - there’s a lot of overlap with the groups doing this in the US and the ones doing it in Israel. By that I mean literally the same groups are funding both propaganda efforts, like the heritage foundation

    • Syndic@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      I don’t fucking get on how Israel has never really tried forming a state in which both palestinians and jews can live in peace together.

      The Zionist terrorist of the British Mandate period were founding members of the state of Israel. For example Menachem Begin who later became a founding member of the Likud party which Netanyahu belongs to. These asshats from the start wanted to get rid of all Palestinians/Arabs and get the whole country for Jewish people. That’s why the Zyonist terrorist fist targeted communities where Jews and Palestinians/Arabs were living together in peace. Netanyahu is just continuing this goal and he would rather die than to allow for a stable two state solution to become reality.

        • Final Remix@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Can I just say how nice it is that we can have multiple links in a comment and it doesn’t get automodded and silently hidden like on reddit?

      • BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        1 year ago

        Let me just take the majority of your house, leaving you with only your bathroom, and then tell me how wanting me out is trying to invade my territory

        • gh0stcassette@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          1 year ago

          There are far more ethnic Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank living in third world conditions, who are denied Israeli citizenship than there are Palestinian Israeli citizens, and even the ones with citizenship are subjected to a level of racism and state violence comparable to Black Americans in the Jim Crow south.