You are interpreting my words too narrowly. I am intimatly aware how people read and assume gender… But my point is it is rude as fuck when done deliberately based on sex.
When transphobes misgender so deliberately and refuse to change their behaviour due to their adherence to “the facts” in direct opposition to my personal comfort it is very much in reference to my physical body and prescribing gender as something locked to sex, physical and immutable. If not the secondary sex characteristics then the genitals or the chromasomes or the shape or the skull and hands … the goal posts move to their tastes if they really want to go for broke.
Besides, not all of us pass as our gender. Non binary identities are almost never assumed and conservative people have meltdowns when asked to use they/them pronouns.
You are also seem to be coming at this from the cis experience where your original sex characteristics don’t feel like a burden. Being misgendered doesn’t do harm to the majority of cis people. Your anecdote isn’t exactly up to snuff here.
You are also seem to be coming at this from the cis experience where your original sex characteristics don’t feel like a burden. Being misgendered doesn’t do harm to the majority of cis people. Your anecdote isn’t exactly up to snuff here.
Yea this to me shows this is just a response meant to insult. Yes, it is hurtful for everyone to be percieved differently from how they want to be perceived.
This was not intended to insult but quite frankly I get a lot of cis people trying to use anecdotes from their experience of being misgendered… and a lot of it really demonstrates misunderstanding of what misgendering is like from a trans perspective. I have met cis people who legitimately experience gender euphoria and dysphoria but when they speak with other cis people they realize they aren’t experiencing gender the same way. Cis people who experience internalized gender preference are comparatively really rare. From what I have observed lot of what cis people react to when they are misgendered is usually one of three things.
A miscategorization error. Basically it’s just not factually correct. This can cause social anxiety as one is placed in a position where they might feel a need to correct it.
A perception of not performing their perscribed social category well. Either because they interpret it as them not being attractive in the right way or because they are not performing up to a standard they were socialized to perform.
Or 3. Misandry /Misogyny - They actually don’t like the other sex because of some reason. Then when they are misgendered it’s like being mischaracterized as a category they feel inherently superior to and react to the implication of perceived inferiority.
Those are the commonalities of the gender experience cis people and trans people share. A lot of the time what cis people interpret as our problem is that we’re just upset at misgendering because this idea we are obsessed with category. When we try and tell you - hey we have an extra something, a fourth thing happening that is kind of unique to us and they insist on giving us anecdotes of how they deal with problems 1 through 3 it comes across as being unwilling to understand us because we are trying to highlight an issue theydo not experience and have no reference for. When we trans folk try to explain this this we have no 1 to 1 analogy we can use so we have to use other experiences around a sense of bodily insufficiency that are not quite right but that we know are more more universal.
Which is why folk think gender performativity theory is somehow a trans thing when it’s more accurately a cis capture of the experience of gender. So you can get upset if you really want to but I think that’s going to just reinforce one of the hurdles to understanding the trans experience well which is important if you want to advocate for us effectively.
What you’re describing is a gender fixation, or a gender performance. You’re right that most cis people don’t experience euphoria, but that’s because they aren’t fixated on it. That doesn’t mean it isn’t deeply unsettling for someone to have their own self perception to be questioned. Which you missed and I think is the biggest thing for people, and is itself the root cause of most insecurity and body dismorphia, because you realize you can’t trust how you perceive yourself. Someone who’s anorexic can’t trust what they see in mirror to know if they’re fat, and they might assume that others who say they’re not are just being nice.
When we try and tell you - hey we have an extra something, a fourth thing happening that is kind of unique to us and they insist on giving us anecdotes of how they deal with problems 1 through 3 it comes across as being unwilling to understand us because we are trying to highlight an issue theydo not experience and have no reference for.
You’re not correct to assume this is all trans people, or all cis people. Some cis people are extremely performative with gender, and some trans people aren’t. And, honestly, what you’re describing as your experience sounds closer
accurately a cis capture of the experience of gender
I think it’s more accurate to say most people don’t hyperfixate on gender, just as most don’t hyperfixate on race. It is true there are more experiences that are gatekept by gender, but the gradual erosion of gender is, in my view, a much more equitable goal than encouraging those few who hyperfixate on arbitrary descriptors.
So you can get upset if you really want to but I think that’s going to just reinforce one of the hurdles to understanding the trans experience well which is important if you want to advocate for us effectively.
First point, I did not say all cis people experienced gender one way. I think cisness is actually two entirely separate phenomena in a trench coat. People just generally don’t recognize it because cis people aren’t generally put under a microscope in the same way and they don’t tend to talk to each other about it.
Also trans and cis are not perfect categories in this instance, I am using them here as generalization. We don’t actually have a good word yet for this because these observations are kind of in beta. It involves the trans community backwards engineering cisness through asking questions of cis people about their experiences of gender because its becoming more clear through discussion that there is something else going on.
Also I would argue “gender hyperfixation” is an incomplete description for the effect of dysphoria /euphoria. A misogynistic cis guy blowing up because someone called his arms “like a girl’s” is as much a hyperfixation but it’s for a different reason. A more accurate way I would put it is internal sex characteristic stratification. We lack sex characteristic neutrality and experience a separate internal reaction that is always positive or negative.
The example of body of internalized fatphobia and dysmorphia is a parable some of us use to try and explain the experience of an internalized sense of self that deviates from physicality… But it’s imperfect in it’s own way as it focuses too heavily on the impact of routine external validation. Gender dysphoria isn’t external. If it was we’d react to people’s flattery for performing our prescribed gender role instead of wanting things we are constantly under pressure not to do.
This might work easier as a more back and forth series of questions. So as not to assume your experience let me pick two phenotypic sex characteristics - breasts and thicker folical facial hair. You probably have one of these two characteristics.
How does having that characteristic make you feel?
Now this is explicitly not in an external validation way. Your answer cannot be at all about how other people react to it. It also cannot be about how it physically makes you feel - back pain, itchyness or convenience or inconvenience is not what I mean. Nor is it about the attractiveness - if it’s patchy or too small or too big in your estimation. When you stand in front of a mirror how do you feel about the simple straight up existence of those characteristics of your body? What emotional reaction does it inspire when abstracted from those other judgements?
I think cisness is actually two entirely separate phenomena in a trench coat. People just generally don’t recognize it because cis people aren’t generally put under a microscope in the same way and they don’t tend to talk to each other about it.
I agree, in that there are cis people that are basically non-fixated nonbinary, and there are hyperfixated cis people.
Also I would argue “gender hyperfixation” is an incomplete description for the effect of dysphoria /euphoria. A misogynistic cis guy blowing up because someone called his arms “like a girl’s” is as much a hyperfixation but it’s for a different reason.
I would say its just another way that hyperfixation can express itself.
We lack sex characteristic neutrality and experience a separate internal reaction that is always positive or negative.
Strong disagree that “we” do, maybe some people do, and that has infected language. But I don’t think most people would say “you’re balding? that’s so masculine of you” or place much value on their finger length ratios.
Gender dysphoria isn’t external.
I don’t really agree with this, obviously I can’t speak for the experience of others- but at least for my own experience, with anything- I can only evaluate myself an inherently relative description in relation/comparison to others. If there is only 1 person in the world what does it even mean for them to be masculine or feminine? There is no frame of reference. If there were only 1 human, they aren’t tall or short, they just are. That contrasts with something less inherently relative, like eye color. But obviously, the color itself is relative. I don’t think someone could have body dysmorphia, or gender dysphoria, if they weren’t* inherently comparing their own body or gender expression to others- and for many people they care about how that is evaluated by others- but you’re right, it could solely be one comparing themselves to others. Like Alan Watts said "you love yourself in terms of what is other, because it’s only in terms of what is other that you have a self at all. ". Or in the terms of the missile “The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn’t.”
Now this is explicitly not in an external validation way. Your answer cannot be at all about how other people react to it. It also cannot be about how it physically makes you feel - back pain, itchyness or convenience or inconvenience is not what I mean. Nor is it about the attractiveness - if it’s patchy or too small or too big in your estimation. When you stand in front of a mirror how do you feel about the simple straight up existence of those characteristics of your body? What emotional reaction does it inspire when abstracted from those other judgements?
I have no clue. I can’t abstract it from those judgements, and those would be the only ways I would judge it anyways.
Edit:
If it was we’d react to people’s flattery for performing our prescribed gender role instead of wanting things we are constantly under pressure not to do.
For a lot of trans people their goal in transitioning is to be passing in the eyes of others or in their own eyes(ie in comparison to others).
A lot of the time passing comes with safety benefits and the benefit of people not reflecting our bodies back at us through speech… but I would say that if you have only external validation of your physical body to steer how you feel about it then you are pretty much fitting my rubric of not experiencing an internally reaction to your own body. Your experience of gender is only external. That flexibility might be a feature of the human body naturally having two modes of development you go down. If you swapped body phenotypes and nobody cared or noticed how do you think you might react?
For us a lot of us trans folk part of our journey involves recognizing how our bodies alone outside of any external influence makes us feel. A lot of us spend a lot of time experimenting in isolation. When I am in front of a mirror when I am alone the last thing I am thinking about is how other people feel about my body. I bound my chest in the privacy of my own home long before I went outside with it, but the reason I did it privately was because I got the benefit of the lack of stimulus from it. I wasn’t practicing for social use later. If I was isolated for the rest of my life from the interaction with other humans I would still want things like a deep voice, weight distribution changes, facial hair and what not because at it’s core those things are for me alone to enjoy.
What happens when someone misgenders me is a reaction that is first and foremost a reminder to myself that I have or don’t have that physical feature. The social considerations and implications are secondary and belated. Lack of peer recognition is a component of binary transness that is a deep feeling that your preferred gender is your tribe. Our social astrangement is generally blamed first to how they react to your sex characteristics… But interestingly enough most cis people do not feel this deep sense of social tribalism either.
You are interpreting my words too narrowly. I am intimatly aware how people read and assume gender… But my point is it is rude as fuck when done deliberately based on sex.
When transphobes misgender so deliberately and refuse to change their behaviour due to their adherence to “the facts” in direct opposition to my personal comfort it is very much in reference to my physical body and prescribing gender as something locked to sex, physical and immutable. If not the secondary sex characteristics then the genitals or the chromasomes or the shape or the skull and hands … the goal posts move to their tastes if they really want to go for broke.
Besides, not all of us pass as our gender. Non binary identities are almost never assumed and conservative people have meltdowns when asked to use they/them pronouns.
You are also seem to be coming at this from the cis experience where your original sex characteristics don’t feel like a burden. Being misgendered doesn’t do harm to the majority of cis people. Your anecdote isn’t exactly up to snuff here.
Yea this to me shows this is just a response meant to insult. Yes, it is hurtful for everyone to be percieved differently from how they want to be perceived.
This was not intended to insult but quite frankly I get a lot of cis people trying to use anecdotes from their experience of being misgendered… and a lot of it really demonstrates misunderstanding of what misgendering is like from a trans perspective. I have met cis people who legitimately experience gender euphoria and dysphoria but when they speak with other cis people they realize they aren’t experiencing gender the same way. Cis people who experience internalized gender preference are comparatively really rare. From what I have observed lot of what cis people react to when they are misgendered is usually one of three things.
A miscategorization error. Basically it’s just not factually correct. This can cause social anxiety as one is placed in a position where they might feel a need to correct it.
A perception of not performing their perscribed social category well. Either because they interpret it as them not being attractive in the right way or because they are not performing up to a standard they were socialized to perform.
Or 3. Misandry /Misogyny - They actually don’t like the other sex because of some reason. Then when they are misgendered it’s like being mischaracterized as a category they feel inherently superior to and react to the implication of perceived inferiority.
Those are the commonalities of the gender experience cis people and trans people share. A lot of the time what cis people interpret as our problem is that we’re just upset at misgendering because this idea we are obsessed with category. When we try and tell you - hey we have an extra something, a fourth thing happening that is kind of unique to us and they insist on giving us anecdotes of how they deal with problems 1 through 3 it comes across as being unwilling to understand us because we are trying to highlight an issue theydo not experience and have no reference for. When we trans folk try to explain this this we have no 1 to 1 analogy we can use so we have to use other experiences around a sense of bodily insufficiency that are not quite right but that we know are more more universal.
Which is why folk think gender performativity theory is somehow a trans thing when it’s more accurately a cis capture of the experience of gender. So you can get upset if you really want to but I think that’s going to just reinforce one of the hurdles to understanding the trans experience well which is important if you want to advocate for us effectively.
What you’re describing is a gender fixation, or a gender performance. You’re right that most cis people don’t experience euphoria, but that’s because they aren’t fixated on it. That doesn’t mean it isn’t deeply unsettling for someone to have their own self perception to be questioned. Which you missed and I think is the biggest thing for people, and is itself the root cause of most insecurity and body dismorphia, because you realize you can’t trust how you perceive yourself. Someone who’s anorexic can’t trust what they see in mirror to know if they’re fat, and they might assume that others who say they’re not are just being nice.
You’re not correct to assume this is all trans people, or all cis people. Some cis people are extremely performative with gender, and some trans people aren’t. And, honestly, what you’re describing as your experience sounds closer
I think it’s more accurate to say most people don’t hyperfixate on gender, just as most don’t hyperfixate on race. It is true there are more experiences that are gatekept by gender, but the gradual erosion of gender is, in my view, a much more equitable goal than encouraging those few who hyperfixate on arbitrary descriptors.
Don’t be patronizing
First point, I did not say all cis people experienced gender one way. I think cisness is actually two entirely separate phenomena in a trench coat. People just generally don’t recognize it because cis people aren’t generally put under a microscope in the same way and they don’t tend to talk to each other about it.
Also trans and cis are not perfect categories in this instance, I am using them here as generalization. We don’t actually have a good word yet for this because these observations are kind of in beta. It involves the trans community backwards engineering cisness through asking questions of cis people about their experiences of gender because its becoming more clear through discussion that there is something else going on.
Also I would argue “gender hyperfixation” is an incomplete description for the effect of dysphoria /euphoria. A misogynistic cis guy blowing up because someone called his arms “like a girl’s” is as much a hyperfixation but it’s for a different reason. A more accurate way I would put it is internal sex characteristic stratification. We lack sex characteristic neutrality and experience a separate internal reaction that is always positive or negative.
The example of body of internalized fatphobia and dysmorphia is a parable some of us use to try and explain the experience of an internalized sense of self that deviates from physicality… But it’s imperfect in it’s own way as it focuses too heavily on the impact of routine external validation. Gender dysphoria isn’t external. If it was we’d react to people’s flattery for performing our prescribed gender role instead of wanting things we are constantly under pressure not to do.
This might work easier as a more back and forth series of questions. So as not to assume your experience let me pick two phenotypic sex characteristics - breasts and thicker folical facial hair. You probably have one of these two characteristics.
How does having that characteristic make you feel?
Now this is explicitly not in an external validation way. Your answer cannot be at all about how other people react to it. It also cannot be about how it physically makes you feel - back pain, itchyness or convenience or inconvenience is not what I mean. Nor is it about the attractiveness - if it’s patchy or too small or too big in your estimation. When you stand in front of a mirror how do you feel about the simple straight up existence of those characteristics of your body? What emotional reaction does it inspire when abstracted from those other judgements?
I agree, in that there are cis people that are basically non-fixated nonbinary, and there are hyperfixated cis people.
I would say its just another way that hyperfixation can express itself.
Strong disagree that “we” do, maybe some people do, and that has infected language. But I don’t think most people would say “you’re balding? that’s so masculine of you” or place much value on their finger length ratios.
I don’t really agree with this, obviously I can’t speak for the experience of others- but at least for my own experience, with anything- I can only evaluate myself an inherently relative description in relation/comparison to others. If there is only 1 person in the world what does it even mean for them to be masculine or feminine? There is no frame of reference. If there were only 1 human, they aren’t tall or short, they just are. That contrasts with something less inherently relative, like eye color. But obviously, the color itself is relative. I don’t think someone could have body dysmorphia, or gender dysphoria, if they weren’t* inherently comparing their own body or gender expression to others- and for many people they care about how that is evaluated by others- but you’re right, it could solely be one comparing themselves to others. Like Alan Watts said "you love yourself in terms of what is other, because it’s only in terms of what is other that you have a self at all. ". Or in the terms of the missile “The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn’t.”
I have no clue. I can’t abstract it from those judgements, and those would be the only ways I would judge it anyways.
Edit:
For a lot of trans people their goal in transitioning is to be passing in the eyes of others or in their own eyes(ie in comparison to others).
A lot of the time passing comes with safety benefits and the benefit of people not reflecting our bodies back at us through speech… but I would say that if you have only external validation of your physical body to steer how you feel about it then you are pretty much fitting my rubric of not experiencing an internally reaction to your own body. Your experience of gender is only external. That flexibility might be a feature of the human body naturally having two modes of development you go down. If you swapped body phenotypes and nobody cared or noticed how do you think you might react?
For us a lot of us trans folk part of our journey involves recognizing how our bodies alone outside of any external influence makes us feel. A lot of us spend a lot of time experimenting in isolation. When I am in front of a mirror when I am alone the last thing I am thinking about is how other people feel about my body. I bound my chest in the privacy of my own home long before I went outside with it, but the reason I did it privately was because I got the benefit of the lack of stimulus from it. I wasn’t practicing for social use later. If I was isolated for the rest of my life from the interaction with other humans I would still want things like a deep voice, weight distribution changes, facial hair and what not because at it’s core those things are for me alone to enjoy.
What happens when someone misgenders me is a reaction that is first and foremost a reminder to myself that I have or don’t have that physical feature. The social considerations and implications are secondary and belated. Lack of peer recognition is a component of binary transness that is a deep feeling that your preferred gender is your tribe. Our social astrangement is generally blamed first to how they react to your sex characteristics… But interestingly enough most cis people do not feel this deep sense of social tribalism either.