Just because someone is wrong doesn’t make the other person right. American politics are a great demonstration of that.
Similarly just because someone is a giant piece of shit doesn’t mean someone else is incapable of being crappy. I don’t know how it reads differently without assuming I’m incapable of understanding that.
There are a lot of people who think being civil with bigots is as bad as being the source of bigotry itself. Civility with everyone is not a universal value.
Some people take great offense when they see someone viewing bigotry as a failure in civility, a moral failing on the same level as being uncivil to bigots.
I can understand that. I think part of what I’ve been failing to communicate with many is that civility works in stereo.
The comic, at face value, shows a breakdown on the bigot end. That fella should definitely be told to fuck off. But my complaint was the misrepresentation of the comic. If the start is the same but the response is something more like “the media is lying and you’re racist if you believe it” (this is hyperbole to make a point) then civility was not extended to civility. The bigot is still a bigot and should still be dealt with accordingly when they demonstrate it, but until they have exposed themselves as one why shouldn’t they be given the courtesy in case they’re not.
I do see what you mean now. I think for a lot of people, the idea of being surrounded by secret bigots makes them feel incredibly unsafe and is a big source of anxiety in their lives. It may seem unnecessary to someone who doesn’t feel that kind of anxiety, but there really are a lot of bigots and toxic people in the fediverse who put in a good amount of effort to stay hidden. Getting these people to reveal themselves is as much a goal as driving them away or keeping them out. It’s an important tool in the moderation toolbox for spaces where this is a persistent issue.
Some people have gotten very good at getting these people to reveal themselves too. I haven’t seen all of these recent threads, but I suspect some of these strategies may come across as obnoxious to the uninitiated.
I had someone try and “get” me on Reddit once because I didn’t like a comedienne’s bit so it must have been that I hate women.
I don’t doubt that it works, but like any test I’d bet there’s unintended negative responses too. I can understand the importance, however. I’ll try to use that knowledge to be more mindful in the future.
But that still leaves potential allies feeling unwelcome by the same measures that strive to keep bigots out. I suppose everyone is going to have a different metric for what is acceptable there.
All that being as it is I’m not entirely sure I’d be welcome in these spaces in the near future. I wouldn’t be surprised if a few people have blocked me today. C’est la vie. I can’t change what has already happened.
I do appreciate the conversation we’ve been able to have.
That’s exactly how it reads Doug.
Just because someone is wrong doesn’t make the other person right. American politics are a great demonstration of that.
Similarly just because someone is a giant piece of shit doesn’t mean someone else is incapable of being crappy. I don’t know how it reads differently without assuming I’m incapable of understanding that.
There are a lot of people who think being civil with bigots is as bad as being the source of bigotry itself. Civility with everyone is not a universal value.
Some people take great offense when they see someone viewing bigotry as a failure in civility, a moral failing on the same level as being uncivil to bigots.
I can understand that. I think part of what I’ve been failing to communicate with many is that civility works in stereo.
The comic, at face value, shows a breakdown on the bigot end. That fella should definitely be told to fuck off. But my complaint was the misrepresentation of the comic. If the start is the same but the response is something more like “the media is lying and you’re racist if you believe it” (this is hyperbole to make a point) then civility was not extended to civility. The bigot is still a bigot and should still be dealt with accordingly when they demonstrate it, but until they have exposed themselves as one why shouldn’t they be given the courtesy in case they’re not.
Does that track?
I do see what you mean now. I think for a lot of people, the idea of being surrounded by secret bigots makes them feel incredibly unsafe and is a big source of anxiety in their lives. It may seem unnecessary to someone who doesn’t feel that kind of anxiety, but there really are a lot of bigots and toxic people in the fediverse who put in a good amount of effort to stay hidden. Getting these people to reveal themselves is as much a goal as driving them away or keeping them out. It’s an important tool in the moderation toolbox for spaces where this is a persistent issue.
Some people have gotten very good at getting these people to reveal themselves too. I haven’t seen all of these recent threads, but I suspect some of these strategies may come across as obnoxious to the uninitiated.
I had someone try and “get” me on Reddit once because I didn’t like a comedienne’s bit so it must have been that I hate women.
I don’t doubt that it works, but like any test I’d bet there’s unintended negative responses too. I can understand the importance, however. I’ll try to use that knowledge to be more mindful in the future.
But that still leaves potential allies feeling unwelcome by the same measures that strive to keep bigots out. I suppose everyone is going to have a different metric for what is acceptable there.
All that being as it is I’m not entirely sure I’d be welcome in these spaces in the near future. I wouldn’t be surprised if a few people have blocked me today. C’est la vie. I can’t change what has already happened.
I do appreciate the conversation we’ve been able to have.