• Altofaltception@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    There are 2 genocides actively occurring (or at least in the forefront).

    Western media does not shy away from calling one a genocide (as they should), but refuses to call the other one a genocide.

    • Hyperreality@kbin.social
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      11 months ago

      At least 5. Arguably the Israel-Gaza situation, Russia- Ukraine, Sudan(also with Russian involvement), China’s treatment of the Uyghurs, and Myanmar’s treatment of the Rohingya.

      Obviously, those screeching loudest about genocide X, are inevitably entirely quiet about genocide Y, while accusing country Z of hypocrisy. I haven’t named any sides, but if anyone reads this comment and thinks I’m talking about them, perhaps it’s time for some introspection.

      Not that whataboutism is particularly relevant for those suffering. But hey, why would anyone let human suffering and nuance get in the way of some political point scoring, real politik or a nice online shouting match.

      Meanwhile we walk ever closer towards the precipice of the climate apocalypse. If it’s isn’t already too late.

      • Milk_Sheikh@lemm.ee
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        11 months ago

        We all say “never again” but didn’t do shit for Tigray. There was no big sticky issue like China and the Uyghurs that would stop an intervention - as long as it’s safely not in the news

      • Altofaltception@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Absolutely. I went through a couple of revisions before settling on 2 based on being current and in the forefront.

      • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        I would argue the Israeli/Palestine one.

        Hamas wants to genocide Israel (literally in their founding document) but failing miserably. Absolutely guilty of a war crime or two.

        Israel is very likely guilty of a number of war crimes due to proportionality, failure to minimize civilian casualties, and reasonable cause for infrastructure damage and blockades. The fact they have only killed off something like 3% of the population with this much damage and overwhelming force means they aren’t committing genocide, or they are doing a pretty poor job of it. Individuals and small groups are likely killing off civilians and should be held to account (public hanging is a good way to do it) but question the broader Israeli goal.

        Hamas absolutely guilty of war crime (clear cut), could add genocide if they were winning, Israel unsure as much less clear cut. Could they be - absolutely.

        • Glytch@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          So your argument against the fact of Israel committing genocide is they aren’t doing it fast enough? Wow.

          • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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            11 months ago

            Kind of?

            Historically at least it’s a pretty normal amount of civilian casualties and their stated goal of Hamas vs Palestine helps a lot.

            But everything outside the conflict should be enough, it wasn’t exactly paradise to be a Palestinian living in Israel pre-conflict

            • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              I think the thing that many aren’t following is that there are other war crimes than genocide, and one doesn’t mean the other.

              • Glytch@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                ICJ ruled that the claims of genocide are credible, so I’m going to keep calling it genocide.

                • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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                  11 months ago

                  Correct - that’s the South African led one isn’t it? The 60 odd page full of legal jargon one i read a few days ago? Posted the same time as the Middle East now article that was edited?

                  Because the conclusions they came to, in section 63 off the top of my head, is that there are credible claims, and the best way forward is to call for a cease fire so claims can be investigated. It did not say Israel is committing genocide - it said there are events and actions that need to be investigated on both sides.

                  It discusses the Israel blockade of aid, and Israel response as to why it was done. That attacks were carried out on civilian infrastructure that Hamas was using… and the blatant attack on civilians that sparked off this whole new round of suffering.

                  One war crime does not justify the other, make no mistake I am not claiming that. But it seems awfully continent how many people are taking one line of a very detailed and balanced report and ignoring the entirety of the context of it.

            • Glytch@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              What do you mean by pre-conflict? collective punishment has been Israeli policy since its founding.

              • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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                11 months ago

                Before the current situation ie. October 7th Israel has been quite hostile to Palestinians

          • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            Well let’s apply this argument to every other part of life - because yes, if you are killing off a population when you have an overwhelming force yes it will be quick.

            Is 3% of a population being Mexican an invasion, or is it people living their life?

            Is a 100pt to 103pt basketball game a clear example of the best team, or a small skill difference?

            Is 3% of crime being committed by a black person indicative of a crime driven cultural issue, or a few people?

            A 3% death rate in a modern conflict in a high density urban environment is not a genocide - civilians die in war. Have many been killed needlessly- absolutely. Are there questions on how Israel has been operating - absolutely. Are there individuals in the IDF that have deliberately killed civilians in cold blood - about as close to 100% as you can get. Is it a genocide - no.

            • Glytch@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              That’s a lot of words to say you’re racist and pro-genocide, but you go off, I guess.

              • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                Thats alot of loaded words thrown out without any backing, evidence or legal bias.

                Or was it too much reading so you just threw out the first insult you could?

                • Glytch@lemmy.world
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                  11 months ago

                  Icj ruled it a genocide so that’s what I’m calling it. You’re doing a lot of work to justify genocide. Do you find that rewarding?

              • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                Nope - we have evidence of a systematic approach to killing off multiple cultures. Plans, objectives, methods and an entire system of extermination in place.

                Your effectively comparing the Nazi holocaust to their invasion of France that also killed civilians.

        • KevonLooney@lemm.ee
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          11 months ago

          Hamas can’t be guilty of war crimes because they are not a country or international government organization. They can’t legally wage war. War crimes can only be committed by a country that can legally wage war.

          Hamas is a local government / criminal organization. They can’t commit war crimes any more than the Mafia can. They just commit regular crimes and hate crimes (regular crimes motivated by racial hatred), which they are obviously doing.

          Israel is probably guilty of crimes against humanity and genocide. Forcing millions of people to move is genocide. They are not waging a war on any country, so legally this is just a large police action.

          Who do you blame for mafia or cartels running free in a country? The perpetrators and the government. The Israeli government has the obligation to protect people living in Israel and what it claims as its territory in Gaza. They haven’t done that for Israelis, Gazans, or residents of the West Bank.

          • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            This is where a few things start to blur. Hamas is both the government of Palestine and a designated terrorist organization by everyone but the UN security council (impotent veto pricks).

            War crimes can only be committed in state-state conflict - Palestine v Israel, state - state. But at the same time terrorists cannot as it is not war - its conflict (actually the definition). So can Palestine be done for war crimes but its government and militants not? Terrorists don’t get protection in protected places like hospitals and temples and therefore remove their protected status, but they can’t be done for endangering civilians as they aren’t a state that has to follow the rules of war.

    • PugJesus@kbin.social
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      11 months ago

      Western media does not shy away from calling one a genocide (as they should), but refuses to call the other one a genocide.

      “Refuses” is a strong word. Genocide as an accusation against Israel has been prominent in news headlines as of late.

    • BestBouclettes@jlai.lu
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      11 months ago

      It’s all about worthy and unworthy victims again. Worthy victims, the Uyghur because China bad and unworthy victims, the Palestinians because Israel good. One is seen as a threat, the other one as an ally so they get different media treatment. But in the end, people are getting exterminated systematically.

      • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Yep. A Tankie is someone who claims to be leftist but then defends all actions by governments and countries who claim to be leftist too.

        • Zagorath@aussie.zone
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          11 months ago

          then defends all actions by governments and countries who claim to be leftist too

          Tankies don’t even need that. They just need the country to not be part of NATO and its allies. See their support for Russia, despite Russia being straight-up right-wing authoritarian with no pretence to leftism.

        • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          All governments should be criticized, even AES countries. The slur “tankie” is unhelpful and doesn’t help to educate or bring others to your side. Marxism, Leninism, Maoism and even Anarchism should be criticized and questioned, like any other ideology.

          • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            I’d hardly call it a slur. And that’s exactly the problem with tankies and conservatives alike. They refuse to criticize their favorite government.

            • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              Any word can be a slur, it depends on the context of how it’s used. Get it “rocket scientist?” Unless you were alive for the Soviet occupation of Hungary in 1956, it’s a slur.

              You can criticize the authoritarian nature of the ideology, or the rabid dogmatism. Using “tankie” is the easy way to dismiss an opinion without offering a countering opinion.

      • TengoDosVacas@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        The part I like is that nobody making noise about it actually cares about the Uyghurs. If they lived in anywhere other than China there would be calls to bomb them for being Muslims

        • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          True. They were dealing with Muslim fundamentalism. You can only improve the material conditions of a cult so much. Their methods should be criticized, but thinking capitalist countries would act differently is foolish. Just look at Gaza. What naysayers want to do is expose the hypocrisy, which is fair, without offering any solutions.

      • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        You can be a Capitalist and fully endorse it, too. Sort of the joke in all this. Liberals will kick and scream and cry about China, then roll up to their local retailer and fill their baskets with foreign made goods.

        Maybe you’re feeling spicy and telling everyone you’ll buy exclusively from sweatshops in India or Indonesia, as though Modi’s Hinduvistas don’t have blood on their hands and the Jakarta Method means nothing.

        But, at the end of the day, we’ll permit any amount of genocide, cultural or otherwise, if it means getting rock bottom labor rates from the other side of the planet.

        • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          The hypocrisy is not lost on me. I’ve never read the Jakarta Method. Vincent Bevins has a newer book, “ If We Burn: The Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution.” It examines the horizontalism in recent mass movements and the prefiguration, or lack of, in protests since the Arab Spring. He recently did an interview on Upstream that was really interesting.

      • dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        11 months ago

        Adhering to Marxist Leninism aka Stalinism makes you a bad person. Drop that Leninist crap and seize the means of production with your fellow workers.

        • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          What’cha gonna do after? How d’ya maintain control? Lenin, wrote about it.

          Everyone else- “Not that way!”

    • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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      11 months ago

      Because it makes unfairness in the world easier to tolerate if you have a fantasized perfect solution to the problems, same as religions and other political extremes.

      • angrymouse@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        if you have a fantasized perfect solution

        Dialectic materialism is the exactly opposite of this, even China changes all the time. You cannot call everyone you disagree or is incapable of understand of fantasizing.

        • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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          11 months ago

          Given how many countries tried this system and turned into authoritarian oligarchies without providing better life for their people, I think we can call it a fantasy when people continue to believe that it can work. Yeah, China changed after millions of deaths from magical thinking based economical strategies, they turned to controlled capitalism and free global market, and it created historical growth and development of their country. Why do you think that it is not a counter exemple for communism? The only thing they seem to have kept from Marxism is the authoritarian phase and they are not going out of it. Capitalism is also materialistic, I’ll certainly give you that.

          • gun@lemmy.ml
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            11 months ago

            In the neoliberal thinking of economics, China and the US are both mixed economies. I can entertain this framing for a moment, so tell me, between the US and China, which of these countries is on the more socialist side of the mixed economy paradigm and which is more capitalist? Now look back to China overtaking the US in global trade and dominating the world in manufacturing, while the US regresses into a society that can no longer provide clean drinking water for everyone, with the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world.

            Now, within this “mixed economy” paradigm, which side is winning? The capitalist or socialist side? We can haggle definitions all you want, but whether China is a true communist country or a more socialist mixed economy is a meaningless diversion from the objective reality that China’s approach to statecraft is qualitatively different from that of the West and it has thoroughly proven to be superior in the modern age. China’s unique approach to statecraft does not originate with neoliberal thinking, it follows from a combination of China’s historical experience and the theory of Marxism-Leninism; in other words, tankies winning, stay mad

            • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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              11 months ago

              Sorry tankie, you’re once again aiming at fantasized targets, I’m not defending USA’s system. I’m rather defending European social democracy as the best, even though not perfect, model we have tested, using regulated free market to provide economical efficiency, social safety nets to compensate for the negative effects and social freedoms that don’t exist in authoritarian regimes. Of course, we can and should do better for the social parts but I believe this model gives people’s better life than the tank crushed 996 life of Chinese people.

              • gun@lemmy.ml
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                11 months ago

                Yeah but, European social democracy is not self sustaining. Face it, you depend on the USA for everything. Without the USA, you have no LNG, your industry grinds to a halt and Europe freezes. Not to mention military support the USA provides through NATO, which seems to be so essential to maintain Europe’s poise against Russia. And the quality of life in Europe would not be so high without actual slave labor and sweatshops in the third world. “996” (which has already been discontinued years ago) doesn’t sound so bad in comparison.

                Talking about fantasy, Europe is a “Shire”. It is a sheltered little play-place for the kiddies to enjoy while the real preconditions of civilization are toiled and fought over with sweat and blood on the horizon. The world in it’s entirety is a dark and shitty place. Just because you think you can forget about it by living in a happy little Nordic utopia does not mean you are not as much complicit in the utter violence outside that makes it possible. Say what you want about a country like North Korea, at least they take full responsibility for what makes a nation from within their own borders. Modern Europe is a parasite, the rest of the world would be better off without them.

                It is the social democrats who live in fantasy land, I was actually steelmanning your argument by talking about the USA instead.

    • YeetPics@mander.xyz
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      11 months ago

      Critical thinking is punishable by public execution or something probably. Inb4 they blame liberals for taking all the good concepts.

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      We talking about T-90 Tankies or Leopard II Tankies? Type 99s or Merkavas?

      Honestly, the people who seem to eat the most shit in the comments are the peaceniks. Being against a war is the fastest way to earn the label.

  • yesman@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    It’s a unique tragedy of the human animal that how we label an atrocity is central to the question of what to do about it.

    An alien might very well assume that humans worship words because some of them are symbols of real power to eclipse any icon, fetish, or talisman.

    Has any holy book ever inspired the devotion that the dictionary enjoys? What is a Supreme Court judge other than a robed literary priest endowed with the power to declare what words mean?

  • febra@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    I wish the west would have the balls to call Israel out too. But eh, one genocide at a time I guess. Fuck China

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Its not genocide if my team is doing it. I’m just fighting the terrorists. They’re doing the genocide.

      Fuck China

      If the US and China really do get into a war and bombs start falling all over the East Pacific, I’ve got to wonder whether the dead in Macau or the Singapore or Indonesia will garner the same pity as the folks in Kiev and the Gaza strip. I’ve got to wonder how cavalier Americans will feel about war if bombs ever reach their way to Hawaii or California or Texas.

      • Woht24@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Well… I’m guessing you don’t know about Pearl Harbour? The twin towers perhaps?

        Those are the usual responses when America is attacked.

      • YeetPics@mander.xyz
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        11 months ago

        You can crack open a history book and see (with pictures) what America has done in the past when bombed/attacked. You don’t have to imagine you’re the first person to envision such a thing.

        • Reddfugee42@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          Impressively short considering how dangerous it is to hold the secular actions of the secular Israeli government to scrutiny in America without being called an anti-semite.

    • gun@lemmy.ml
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      11 months ago

      If the west’s media lies about Israel, why do you trust them to tell the truth about China?

    • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      West is calling out Israel - its just following the process rather than throwing words out without investigating

        • Hyperreality@kbin.social
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          11 months ago

          The IOC spent more time going on about cartoons of the prophet Mohammed or defending China, than war crimes in Syria or Sudan. Maybe you should hold the Americans and Israelis to the same standards as the Arab world which doesn’t actually seem to care about Muslim lives either, except when it’s politically convenient or fashionable.

          It’s pretty obvious organisations like the IOC and Arab leaders care more about making money, than they do about Arab lives, which is why they chose to ignore Uyghur Muslim suffering. Luckily for them, useful idiots like you will happily parrot propaganda, conspiracy theories, and useful distractions, ensuring the Arab man on the street will never have an actual say in politics. Which allows Arab leaders to continue doing business as usual, make deals with the Russians, Chinese, Americans and sooner or later even the Israelis.

          But hey, the Communist Party of China thanks you for your service.

        • Reddfugee42@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          It’s great that you have that one source, but if you went to a school where your writing teachers told you you only needed one source, you didn’t go to a very good school. Facts are determined through consensus.

  • PugJesus@kbin.social
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    11 months ago

    Critical support for Comrade Xi’s Uyghur Genocide! (but also it’s not happening, and if it was it’s justified anyway)

    • NaibofTabr
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      11 months ago

      That didn’t happen.

      And if it did, it wasn’t that bad.

      And if it was, that’s not a big deal.

      And if it is, that’s not my fault.

      And if it was, I didn’t mean it.

      And if I did, you deserved it.

    • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      I understand this is sarcastic, but cultural genocide should never be justified, in China or Palestine.

  • Nioxic@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    11 months ago

    Skinner is like the flatearthers… “its a conspiracy among ~several million people and several nations, they’re just very good at keeping the facts to themselves”

  • MxM111@kbin.social
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    11 months ago

    Honest question- are there mass killings as well? I did not follow this topic for a while, but I thought it is only mass incarceration reeducation campaign.

    • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      As far as I can tell just forced abortions and sterilization. It’s difficult to discern fact from propaganda.

  • من البحر إلى النهر@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    You forgot to condemn the Organization for Islamic Cooperation and most Turkic and Muslim countries for their silence on the Uyghur genocide. Muslims don’t care for one another like the West cares for them. They only pretend to care about Palestinians because they are antisemitic.

    The brave people at VOA were quick to condemn them.

    /s in case it isn’t obvious

    If you googled the OIC report on Uyghur after they visited Xinjiang you will only get results for western outlets condemning it. It is clear who is using censorship to control the narrative https://www.google.com/search?q=oic+uyghur+repprt&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

    • mlg@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      They only pretend to care about Palestinians because they are antisemitic.

      No its usually money lol. KSA and every surrounding country will happily continue to literally kill people who stand in their way whether it be against Israel or even basic human rights which they deny by denying citizenship unless you’re born to a citizen.

      Most of the Muslim countries were also caught buying munitions and spyware from Israel too.

      Also you shouldn’t put “West” into one category. Some countries do care about Muslims to varying degrees. Germany is pretty nice. USA only cares if you’ve become a citizen, otherwise screw off. France has always said screw off, and loves to exploit Africa well after colonialism ended.

      Both UK and France convinced the USA to also be complacent in the Bosnian genocide, something the USA had no political reason to support like how they support Israel. All because UK and France didn’t want a Muslim country in Europe.

      • من البحر إلى النهر@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        So Muslim countries and Muslims in general are afraid of China but not the West or India? It seems odd they aren’t speaking up on it but the West is. They are speaking up about everything else but the West mostly isn’t.

        • deft@lemmy.wtf
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          11 months ago

          It is extremely racist to lump one of the largest demographics into one category and act like you are speaking for them lol

          Islam itself is fractured into a ton of different groups that identify and want different things. Why are you trying to throw a blanket on it all?

          Also any post that mentions Muslims and China you care so much to muddy the waters about. Hm

            • deft@lemmy.wtf
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              11 months ago

              Go do that and continue trying to legitimize your ability to speak for everyone.

              Imagine if cause I spoke English I spoke for all English speaking people. That would be considered ignorant, racist and likely I’m probably not right.

              Also it is the 21st century. You can just google translate stuff you doing this proves no sense of legitimacy so I dunno after you’re done maybe jump off that wall too?

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      11 months ago

      I need to read a lot more about it. I believe the Uyghur population is continuing to increase, although that doesn’t mean some of them aren’t being treated very badly.