The point should be to bring everyone up, not pull others down, though
There aren’t a limited amount of rights that can only be handed out to be shared amongst people.
There are just rights and everyone should be entitled to them.
That’s impossible since the point was a superficial elevation of their own interests.
Unless you think the point of feminism (for example) is to make men second class citizens. That’s just not a thing. It’s a rhetoric created by assholes to get ignorant people on board with their continued grossness.
Unless you think the point of feminism (for example) is to make men second class citizens. That’s just not a thing. It’s a rhetoric created by assholes to get ignorant people on board with their continued grossness.
I think there may be some radicals who genuinely wish for that, but those don’t represent the entire movement and usually only pay lip service to the cause where it aligns with their personal beliefs. They should be ignored.
I think there may be some radicals who genuinely wish for that
Those aren’t radicals; those are reactionary trolls who falsely claim allegiance to the movement in order to discredit it.
For a while it seemed like that minority owned the term “feminism”
I’m not even sure the radicals want that. Anger is an appropriate response to oppression. Vengeance is an extreme form of that but I doubt anyone that isn’t truly damaged would be okay with it.
There’s also a psychological phenomenon that occurs in ‘elite classes’ where they think that someone getting more means they get less. They literally cannot fathom someone getting welfare without it affecting them negatively. It’s one of the reasons why poor people still support Republicans.
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a lot of women who call themselves feminist believe theyre superior to men instead of equal. most of those are very loud about it, so feminism turns into a term that describes that, even if the “real” meaning isn’t that.
“A lot?” No.
L O fucking L
No shit, the only thing leftists want to pull down are systems of exploitation.
Meanwhile, the Right want to pull down your trousers to check your “gender”.
At the same time, privileged people will still sometimes feel a loss of something when you’re portioning out a finite resource. So if a particular group is 25% of the population and they were getting 75% of the pie before and now they’re getting 25% of the pie, that’s a loss. It’s a justified loss, but it’s still a loss.
That said, there are other things like rights that are not finite in any meaningful sense of the word. When someone is feeling a loss because an oppressed group gained rights, it’s usually because they’re an oppressive asshole.
The issue is that people generally view their situation not by how much they have, but how much more they have than others. It’s like a race to these people - who’s winning isn’t based on how close to the goal they are, it’s based on how far ahead of the competitors they are. People who have everything they need often see others getting to that same point as competitors catching up, and, seeing that they are not advancing themselves, they feel that they need to prevent that in order to maintain their lead. It’s meant to be everyone working together, but few see it that way, especially among the current “winners.”
The issue is that people generally view their situation not by how much they have, but how much more they have than others.
Some people are that way, but not “people generally.”
I considered putting a “some” in there, but honestly, I feel like it’s sadly the default state, at least in the US. Even fellow politically-left people I meet rarely demand resources for underprivileged people that actually elevate them to their own station. It usually feels like “They deserve more! But still less than me.”
“White people be like” memes, so progressive
go back to Reddit
That IS the point, and rarely do equality or equity initiatives “pull down” anyone.
But the Haves feel like they’ve earned their position, and that means that if you help a Have Not in any way, you are taking away from their achievement (which in this case is “not being born poor/black/female”)
Making sure the rain forest isn’t destroyed doesn’t mean letting the pinebarrens be converted into a strip mall.
Are you in this meme right now?
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But isn’t that the point of the meme? Am I going crazy?
It’s sort of like a Rorschach test. What you see reveals things about you and your thoughts.
This is a flawed method of thinking though, there are plenty of factors that go into what you think. If you’re aware of and trying to avoid a negative stereotype, you’re just as likely to fall into the “he doth protest too much” as someone who demonstrates that stereotype.
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That’s well and good, but bringing everyone up needs to be done in consideration of lasting multigenerational harm from what has come previously, and areas where we as a people and nation continue to marginalize, underserve, and sometimes actively harm some segments of our population.
Folks who think those things should be ignored are not actually interested in bringing everyone up.
It’s funny because extending rights to marginalized people does not by any means diminish the rights of the privileged.
Turns out, the cruelty of knowing you have more rights than others was part of the fun the whole time.
No doubt that’s appealing to some (one example is the USA civil rights movement in the 1960s, especially with states conforming to federal laws that mandate desegregation of schools) but I think another advantage for the privileged is the lack of competition for good jobs, study places etc… If 50% of your peers are kept in slums then just by biological outcomes (lack of nutrition and sleep) the odds are very much in your favor. Throw in the psychological effects of poverty, mass incarceration, addiction and you have a situation like a running race where half the contestants have a broken leg. Fear of a level playing field might be another factor in why the privileged don’t want equal rights. BUT, imagine if we had 50% more people working on a cure for cancer etc.
But, but, but…I am winning everything. Can’t let those marginalized communities beat me. I’ve been told everything is a zero sum game! I say in the most whiny, navel voice. The kind of the voice that makes your soul shiver up and die
For those who you are wondering, the above comment was dripping in sarcasm. Human Rights are not a zero sum game. When marginalized communities prosper, we all better off as a society.
Yes Stormy, we’re gonna hunt you for sport. You and the rest of the Pod 6 jerks.
I loved that show.
I think a lot of equity arguments bug me because they often fail to address the real issue (at least in the workplace). It’s a matter of attitude, rather than parity/proportionality.
However much we hate it, the majority of people in a stem field will still seek a straight white man out when we look for authority/expertise. That isn’t because they are the greatest expert, or that they hold the highest accessible authority, but because it is an ingrained belief. That’s just wrong, on so very many levels, that I cannot even begin to express how stupid it is.
Some people have spotted this issue, but their solution is abhorrent - denigrate this group. Raise a generation that looks on this group with contempt, to at least remove the component of authority. It will solve the problem, but it will create a lot more down the line as it becomes the accepted solution. Shall we have a generational genetic lottery forever?
Oddly enough, I think the “blurring of gender lines” brought about by the trans movement might offer a more meaningful solution to some part of this problem, as it erases the categories themselves, rather than attempting to shift their position.
Imo blurring genderlines and rendering them useless as a meaningful measure of power is precisely why so many in power now don’t want the gender/trans movement to gain any traction. If people were to realize that gender truly was nothing more than your outward appearance and did not in any way impact someone’s ability to gain power, knowledge, or success then we could end up with a WOMAN in powerful positions or even worse the women could actually start to gain allies with the power to change things when former white cishet male presenting people who still speak with their white cishet friends about all the I justices women face start to get outraged on their friends behalf.
Jokes on them. If I want to peruse the expertise of someone at my workplace, I just look for the Asian dude. The white people would be for gossip or talking about food or complaining about stuff. /S
There is equity, and there is equality, and those are different things. I do think that forceful push to maintain percentages in various aspects of life to correspond to percentages of population often is actually unjust. For example, to insist that it should be strictly 50/50 percentage (or whatever it is) between men and women in all professions e.g. police, school teachers, etc. and actually stop hiring a particular gender until this 50/50 distribution is established is not good.
The problem with this graphics is that this is absolutely not what equity proponents are doing. What is shown here is individual approach. What equity supporters want to do is to group you according by things like skin color or gender, and provide support according that grouping.
For example, equality in income distribution is when help is given based on income of the individual. Equity is when help is given based on skin color to make average income of all skin colors the same.
There’s also a conflict of interest that informs these notions, namely that “equality,” especially in the economic sense, the one that was invoked by MLK Jr and popular in the Civil Rights era, represents a threat to economic arrangements. Those same arrangements, like employers who purchase services from the diversity industry, inform the type of content that will be most marketable for diversity consultants. A company isn’t going to invoke notions of these things that would impact their bottom line. That’s why disparity frameworks are the most readily adopted by capital, because the arrangement of individuals in the system doesn’t alter or threaten the position of capital. The inverse example of this notion of equity would be, “everyone should struggle for a decent job and quality of life equally.” You can even bring this framework to the Antebellum south where, “if we had more black slave owners…”
So I always raise this “yes, and” approach to this subject matter, because it’s in the history of this racial order where the more radical and satisfying answers to it are.
The little guy should be hurt in the 3rd panel as well for the sake of accuracy.
I find that equity tends to create the illusion of opportunity rather than providing the actual support needed to allow the disadvantaged parties to properly take advantage of the opportunities, thus backfiring and hurting all parties.
For example, giving college spots to those who are unable to pass the entry bar rather than giving them the actual support they need to pass the bar in the first place, which ends up with the disadvantaged parties falling behind and taking opportunities away from those who did pass the bar. In the end, nothing gets solved.
See Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard.Justice is clearly the better option.
Justice is clearly the better option.
Sure it is, but folks fight it tooth and nail, so you end up settling for equity.
Frankly, I find the folks who think equity looks like your image and description are usually the folks we’re also having to fight against for justice. I’m a little surprised to see you supporting the fence analogy while also tearing down the boxes one. (Maybe we have different ideas about what the fence is?)
Personally I disagree that your third panel is accurate, and IME the occurrence of that outcome (and your “college spots” example) is a theoretical worst case, and detractors of equity-focused solutions claim it to be much more common it than it ever is.
It’s like all those 70’s cartoons where quicksand was a likely threat. Sure, quicksand exists. Are you likely to encounter it? No. Any entity that is supposedly taking unqualified candidates for any position based on equity programs would bring other harm to itself by doing so. I think there’s a reasonable debate to be had about things that fall under the broad umbrella of affirmative action, but I don’t think a reasonable debate includes the assertion that it routinely creates outcomes that result in hiring unqualified candidates.
It’s far easier to find cases of those programs doing exactly what they should than to find them doing harm.
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The problem with equity is that we live under a government in which doesn’t give a rats ass about providing boxes in the first place and so rather chooses the appeasement route that takes the least amount of effort.
They don’t actually want to do anything, just appear like they are.
Making the comparison to the homeless crisis, it becomes more clear.
Instead of building more housing and providing a mechanism to help the homeless, they go with hostile architecture that forces the homeless out into dangerous and deadly environments.
They want the illusion of solving the problem while doing the most minimal amount of effort. If you didn’t know any better & saw fewer homeless people, you’d probably think that “maybe they are solving the homeless problem” when in reality they were solving “the homeless people problem” by creating an environment where the homeless either leaves or dies.and your “college spots” example is a theoretical worst case…
It’s not as theoretical as you think, as there’s plenty of real world examples of the scenario I described.
Infact, Harvard; one of the most acclaimed colleges in the world let alone the US; was doing exactly what I described prior to the Supreme Court ruling that the practice was unconstitutional, see Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard.
Many colleges, do infact still engage in this practice sighting state level laws.So that makes it a continuing goal and imperfect solution that we should continue to improve while working on the much bigger and longer problem of taking down the fence.
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Yes, it’s implementation is imperfect. We’re on exactly the same page.
If equity or rather politicians focused on providing necessary supports in the first place rather than taking shortcuts, the fence would’ve already been down by now.Please note, that I’m neither “right” or “left”. I hold beliefs that fall on either end as well a neither.
I’m mearly a rights advocate that looks for the truth & most effective solutions and in doing so, I believe we must look at the shortcomings of the supposed solution to patch out the jank so it can actually be a solution rather than the illusion of one.People often look at the solutions their side proposes through rose colored glasses and solutions proposed by the opposition through a circus mirror. As is the nature of the “us vs. them” mindset the vast majority of people take when anything political is discussed. Hopefully I helped bridge that gap by bringing an alternative more neutral perspective.
Harrison Bergeron was required reading when I was in school, and should be for everyone, especially these days.
That’s a good read, thanks.
They actually made a half decent movie based on the short story too if you’re interested.
Indeed I am.
It’s pretty easy to find. Has the exact same name. There are several versions right on Youtube.
That is an amazing graphic. Thanks for sharing it.
Perfect intersectionality is a goal, an ideal that we can be measured against, but there must be a transition to it because we are not there in many ways. Places holding themselves to a strict or impossible standard are probably hurting themselves in the short term, but I still think that it is a good goal to work toward.
Related JAQing off opinion piece in The Guardian posted today: “Where are all the films about ‘whiteness’?” .
For those unfamiliar with the acronym, JAQ = “Just asking questions,” a bad faith tactic pushing an absurd narrative (e.g. “movies for white people are disappearing”) by pretending to ask innocent questions.
Direct quote, emphasis mine:
That’s why the final step towards true racial equality on screen is for whiteness to be cinematically named, described and dethroned from its “just human” position of cultural power. It’s time for white people to develop a cinema culture all of their own.
It’s riddled with white power talking points like this. This shit is really fucked up. It is irresponsible for a well-known major news source to publish shit like this, even with the “opinion” label attached. It’s basically right wing extremist (aka Nazi) recruitment propaganda.
I didn’t read the whole thing but I made it to your quote and I think their point is intended to be anti-racist. They are saying films have a sort of universal human experience or perspective or whatever you want to call it that’s been “white” by default but shouldn’t be.
This is also how I read it. I actually really appreciate attacking the idea of “white as default”. It’s kind of like how some gamers think representing anything besides the “default” demographic is “political”.
I think this is the more revealing excerpt:
This is the defining irony of white film-making. The more oblivious your film is to matters of race, the whiter it plays. Because whiteness is often exactly that: the freedom not to see race, even when it’s right there in front of you.
Basically, being aware of whiteness makes for less racist movies. There’s nothing wrong with white movies, but it’s wrong when white movies pretend they’re not white, but universal and default. The article concludes:
Instead, our twofold expectation should be this: 1) The industry affords more film-makers of colour the same creative freedoms and commercial opportunities that are now afforded white film-makers, and 2) That the film culture – including the film-makers themselves – develop the confidence, insight and language to discuss and dethrone white cinema.
This does not sound like racist dog-whistling or white supremacy to me.
Yep, and the top comment showed the exact kind of thinking that led to the creation of OPs meme.
Just talking about whiteness in anything other than accusatory or self-deprecating terms is always racism by default, even if the points made are absolutely valid and not racist at all.
This in turn leads to a situation where a large chunk of the “mildly conservative” folks can only assume, that if those are the advocates of the movement, then just mentioning their own identity will get them in trouble. Demagogues of course gladly take it from there.
Once again, self-righteous zealots sabotage the very thing they claim to be fighting for, by completely not understanding what that actually means.
The real problem with that Guardian piece is the insistence on perpetuating a superficial identity marker well past its expiration date. Why do we keep breathing life into the dead horse that is racism? Let it die along with the aging population of people who grew up when it was still cool to think that race exists.
The “Carlson Gambit”.
That’s why the final step towards true racial equality on screen is for whiteness to be cinematically named, described and dethroned from its “just human” position of cultural power.
No, the way to dethrone whiteness as being “just human” is for all movies to have reasonable representation of non-white people.
Seeeaaalaaab underneath the water
God damn that theme song is a banger
Sealab and ATHF is what turned me onto mc chris. I was really sad to find out he’s a massive douche bag that got off on kicking random people out of his show for made up reasons…
The man’s whole rap persona was about being a nerd who was bullied and then once he got the smallest bit of power he uses it to bully people at his shows to demonstrate that he’s not a 4’8 high schooler anymore.
♪If you’re looking for me, You better check under the sea, 'cause that is where you’ll find me, Underneath the sea, lab, Underneath the water, Sealab, at the bottom of the sea.♪
There can be only none, Debbie!
Marduk desires not the barren wasteland of your desiccated viscera.
Martian Law!
Be a hitter, baby!
I didn’t expect to see regular Stormy!
I know Ellis Henican has a whole ass career that isn’t voice acting, but it kills me we only ever got him as Stormy Waters and nothing else. He’s got such a great voice!
Him saying “Marduk, son of Ia, Slayer of Tiamat” inexplicably runs through my head all the time
Equal rights are a threat to hegemony. Losing hegemony is scary for the privileged, as it is status quo.
Yes, let’s fight prejudice by stereotyping a whole race, gender, and sexual orientation…
It’s concerning how much support these types of statements get.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
–Dr. Martin Luther King Junior
MLK Jr., famous for talking about how much he loves white moderates right
MLK Jr, the guy that has that one quote about white moderates that gets paraded around constantly while 90% of his other words are completely ignored.
No no we don’t have to stereotype anyone.
Let’s just go straight to hunting them for sport
The men who are worried about being hunted for sport have been told too many times that that’s what should happen to them
I mean, if it did happen, would that be the worst thing?
oh god this feels like Reddit all over again. they’re not hunting you! i promise
I very frequently find that very few people here grasp the concept of humor in any measurable way.
It took me a second to understand “cishet” I’m not used to seeing both terms smudged together and shortened line that
I thought it was a misspelling of cishette (a short cisgendered person)… I was excited for a second as a white cishette heterosexual male that my people were finally being singled out in a meme with a cool new nickname… There are DOZENS of us!
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Yes! Let’s beat hate, by hating a different group…
Pointing out their whinging is hardly hate. Way to be a perfect example of the post, whether you’re a white dude or not.
“their” whining. Right, I’m the asshole for not liking language lumping a whole group of people into a bucket.
If you are ok with demonizing language like that, that’s on you. I want nothing to do with it.
You know, I really, really think you’re reading something into this that isn’t there. What, exactly, strikes you as hate here? What in this meme is “demonizing language”? It’s a joke pointing out that privileged people tend to panic and lash out when the people who have historically had fewer privileges than them start receiving help to level the playing field, as if life is some kind of zero-sum game and others being treated better suddenly means they’ll get treated worse. This is a well-recognized truth that applies broadly across privileged populations and has been remarked upon by many people through the years of building civil liberties for minorities of all stripes, and this meme is just poking a bit of fun at it. No one thinks that literally every single cishet white dude is panicking that they’ll be up against the wall if minorities ask to be treated better. I’m really confused at your apparently visceral reaction against this so-called “hate”.
If you are having trouble understanding simply replace cis white male, with any other group like gay black woman. Is it still funny and ok?
I don’t like to discriminate against races and sexes no matter where it’s coming from. And saying “it’s just a prank, bro” doesn’t make it ok.
There are plenty of ways to make a joke like this by actually targeting bigots.
My simple rule is: if it’s something you are born with it’s not ok to lump people together (race, sex, sexual orientation). If it’s something you chose, like political affiliation, etc then it’s all fair game.
They’re not being made fun of for being white cishet men. They’re being made fun of for being privileged and whinging about other people now receiving the rights to which they felt they alone were entitled. Being privileged is not something you are born with, it is something granted to you by an unjust society. Crying about others being granted rights as if it will affect them negatively is a choice they are making. This is not about them being cishet white dudes. It is about them choosing to resist progress because it might mean they don’t get treated like the super special kiddies our society has always treated them as.
That you are equating “haha these privileged people are overreacting to minorities no longer having boots on their necks” with “boo hoo, you’re saying all white cishet dudes are bad” tells me all I need to know. I won’t be able to change your mind, so have fun feeling persecuted 💜
