Dbzero Governance Vote Post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728
Ahoy mateys!
A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.
But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. …
More context
Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.
As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again. …
Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.
In the end the Post had around 70% of support by dbzer0 users, who in the comments also called for defederation.
Here is a Link to Dbzer0 instances tab https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances where if you go to blocked instances you can see fedddit.org is now defederated
i dont think feddit has made a post now, but when they do i will add it
This comment section is a shit show. Be respectful of each other next time please. Locked.
This will probably be unpopular but the leftist - liberal infighting is my least favorite part of the fediverse and why I usually end up having to give people a warning before telling them to get on the fediverse.
This drama is kind of the epitome of that
I can’t think of any “leftist organisations” that support Zionism ? Maybe you’re confusing fascist with leftist ?
I mean “leftist organization” is a weird term and I would more speak of currents. And there is definitely the Antideutsche or Anti-Germans.
The German left, at least the loud one, is publically dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.
Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting.
Saying Hamas is antisemitic is sure fire sign of being a Zionist.
Palestinians are a semitic people.
If you want to saw that Hamas hates Jews, well, when your entire life has been being bombed by planes with stars of David on them, while jackbooted thugs with stars of David on their shoulder kick in your door to kidnap your family members in the night, and settlers with star of David necklaces show up and claim your home and land by divine right, I can start to see where you develop feelings toward the people who carry the same sign.
Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim as they are so fucking desperate to do.
Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim
You probably already know this, but Israel wants the world to be a more dangerous place for Jews to justify Israel’s illegitimate existence and aggression. That’s why they conducted terrorist attacks against Ethiopian Jews, to convince them that they needed to move to Israel as it’s the only safe place for them… where they’re then met by deep-rooted racism.
100%
Israel wants to be a Jewish ethnostate, but only the Jews they deem to be the “Good” ones
Antisemitic clearly means anti-Jewish. Sure it technically means all Semitic people, and as such a better word could have been used so long ago, but it’s intended and in use meaning today is very clearly defined. Jewish people have been some of the biggest victims of Middle Eastern and European hate for thousands of years.
You’re doing the #AllLivesMatter of religious hate.
Islamophobia is much more prevalent in the west than antijudaism. There is islamophobia on a systemic level. And lets not pretend that it’s directed only at muslims but arabs in general. Crying “antisemitism!!” about an indigenous armed resistance movement is the #alllivesmatter of this conflict.
It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.
“Opposing Hamas makes you a Zionist”, can you confirm that statement?
You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?
Me
[…] people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy […]
You
It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.
Again you
You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?
Me
???people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism
This is a Zionist defense of Israel by conflating antisemitism with anti-Zionism.
deleted by creator
Don’t be discouraged. Personally I don’t have the energy any more to endure the abuse of the mob (these “leftist” ignoramuses whose obsession with “Zionism” leads them to support literal fascism) but it’s important that somebody makes the points you’re making.
My favorite part is pointing out that most israelis are not white westerners, but from other middle eastern countries who were fleeing persecution in those countries and are more arab than western in terms of ethnicity and history.
But that doesn’t fit the nice narrative that all Israelis are white colonlizer/invaders from europe or something. Literally never had it acknowledged once, just denied and told that it is zionist propaganda.
You should have been bullied more in school.
Before Lemmy, I didn’t know it was possible to go so left that you hated liberals.
Leftist vs liberal infighting has been going on since the late 1700s.
Of course what you really have to ask yourself is, if they’ve been infighting since basically the beginning and if their ideals are diametrically opposed then is it even in fighting?
1700s
When the liberals were the leftists?
Nope.
Yes: crack open a history book.
Maybe you should actually read some of it next time. Read about Gracchus Babeuf and learn a bit.
Maybe read about the French revolutionary National Assembly & where political left came from?
I joined to talk about math and programming. It’s a letdown that this Podunk platform seems to consist mostly of the weirdest, loudest people who saw the political compass meme and took it way too seriously.
Agreed. A bunch of general purpose instances with slight variations on ideology that are pretty much identical.
yeah it sucks. it sucks balls.
i have to deal with it IRL. It lead to me quitting some things I used to love doing because I was so sick of psychos telling me if I am not a extremist leftist who is angry and outraged 24/7 I must be a fascist/zionist/pro-genocide/anti trans/bigot/blah blah blah.
Its such an empty criticism when they federate with the ml instances.
I don’t get it. Huh? I find sentiment on .ml extremely anti-Zionist.
they didn’t say it was hypocritical, just empty criticism. They are implying that ml instances are no less egregious about the types of bad content they allow, even if the content itself is different
“B-b-but my side virtuous (in all ways, and can do no wrong), while their side ignoramus (everything they do is because they are poopy-heads)!”
I wish I could add /s here but a good half the population on earth seems to hold to this as an invariant position, solidarity in the face of all obstacles, i.e. the Nazi bar effect.
Case in point: who doesn’t love it when a religious institution offers food and shelter and medical care to the needy, or counsels people to forgive, laying down their burdens and seek therapy to thereby travel lighter through the world? It is the diddling kids part that for some strange reason (/s on this one) people tend to get upset?
Since we were talking about Zionism here, I will mention that Deuteronomy 13:5 (in the Torah, part of the Old Testament for Christian and Muslim and offshoot religious branches such as Mormonism) provides an EXTREMELY stern warning about those who would misuse their authority to lead people astray.
TLDR: intolerance paradox - if you tolerate the intolerant, it corrupts the entire system, giving it a bad reputation when people see the worst excesses and extrapolate that to infer the properties of the whole. e.g. Reddit is fascist, hence we did not stay and put up with it but rather moved here.
They’re pretty anti zionist. Only because Israel represents the west in all its brutality. They fully support the Russian invasion and genocide of Ukraine though, hence the hypocrisy.
I think they’re talking about stuff like the holodomor or the uyghurs in china.
Please find the open Zionist admins and mods of major communities who are from .ml. They have their own issues, but Zionism isn’t one of them.
“People supporting “Israel”, the Zionist entity enacting genocide on Palestinians, are identical to people supporting the USSR, which eliminated Nazism and saved tens of millions of lives from extermination”
“People supporting “Israel”, the Zionist entity enacting genocide on Palestinians, are identical to “People supporting “Russia”, the Fascist entity enacting genocide on Ukranians
In no way shape or form Ukraine is a genocide. By using that term for both Palestine and Ukraine you are just demeaning the word, and actually helping the propaganda against Palestine.
Ukraine is defending its sovereignty, and it is experiencing a national aggression by Russia, but what Israel is doing to Gaza is in a different sphere.
What Russia is doing:
Tens of thousands of children are being abducted, stripped of their identity, and taught to hate their homeland
https://thewalrus.ca/ukrainian-children/Definition of Genocide:
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition
Russia is, in fact, not enacting genocide on Ukrainians. It’s carrying out an invasion which we can condemn, but calling every conflict a genocide is actually a form of genocide denial, because it minimizes the horrors of actual genocides.
If you want to see criticism of Russia in Hexbear (my main instance), yesterday there was a post asking for peoples’ opinions on Putin. Here’s mine so you can see how much we “love the Russian government”. You may be surprised to see that most comments and upvotes are highly critical of the contemporary Russian government.
Russia is, in fact, enacting genocide in Ukraine.
What Russia is doing:
Tens of thousands of children are being abducted, stripped of their identity, and taught to hate their homeland
https://thewalrus.ca/ukrainian-children/Definition of Genocide:
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definitionThe source for the tens of thousands of Ukrainian children being abducted is, unsurprisingly, the Ukrainian government. The Russian government makes claims about Ethnic Russians being cleansed in Donbas and I don’t take those accusations as true either, until confirmed by independent journalistic reports. You’d do well to do a more critical analysis of wartime propaganda by countries involved in wars. I’ve had this conversation before with several people, revisited the sources available, and there is no independent journalistic work proving tens of thousands of Ukrainian children being abducted.
The ICC has an arrest warrant on Putin for these abductions.
Putin has used a ukaz/presidential decree to streamline the process of Ukrainian children being made Russian.
Here’s your Independent Journalistic Report:
“It happens, for example, that they go with their parents from the occupied territories through Russia to some third countries. Russians can detain parents, arrest, put them in prison, just take their child to their boarding school. Like, go where you wanted, but your child will stay with us. There are cases when Russians enter a house somewhere in the occupied territory, the child tells them that he lives with his mother, who just went to the store or for water, but they take this child, actually kidnap him, and he finds himself in Russia. I am not talking about the so-called evacuation of children’s boarding institutions from the occupied territories to Russia - this is a separate pain, "says Daria Kasyanova.
But sure, keep telling the world it’s only Ukrainian propaganda. I’m ending this conversation here to log off, I’ve got better things to do than deal with a debatebro hexbear user trying to excuse genocide.
I cannot read in Ukrainian, but if the article contains independent verification of the tens of thousands figure, I’d love to see that section translated. What you quoted are anecdotal events, not evidence of tens of thousands, which is what I’m questioning. I’m not doubting some war crimes are being carried out, of course thats the case, I’m just saying they’re not nearly widespread enough to constitute genocide, as evidenced by the lack of support by essentially any country to such claims.
You can leave the conversation if you want, but the figure of “tens of thousands” literally comes from the Ukrainian government. Per the Wikipedia article of the Abductions:
Ukrainian authorities have verified the identities of over 19,000 abducted children, compiling and actively updating the data as part of an online platform: “Children of War”
You are free to believe this figure if you want, but you’ll also be called on it when you use it to justify baseless claims of genocide which minimize what’s happening in Palestine. I’m not carrying water for Russia, I have given evidence of me heavily criticizing Putin in my main account, and believe me or not I actually hosted a Ukrainian refugee in my home when the war began. But it is not a genocide, that’s very harmful to Palestinians.
“The source for the crime is, unsurprisingly, the victim, the criminal is denying any wrongdoing” hmmm
Do you really think States under war have no reason to do atrocity propaganda? And you’re mischaracterizing what I said, I denied similar accusations made by Russia
Nice try but the USSR sided with the Nazis remember. They dont get any credit.
I’m gonna paste a comment that I wrote some time ago responding to the whole “Soviets sided with the Nazis” lie that is often propagated on Lemmy. Feel free to respond to it, I’d love to engage with you in its contents:
The only country who offered to start a collective offensive against the Nazis and to uphold the defense agreement with Czechoslovakia as an alternative to the Munich Betrayal was the USSR. From that Wikipedia article: “The Soviet Union announced its willingness to come to Czechoslovakia’s assistance, provided the Red Army would be able to cross Polish and Romanian territory; both countries refused.” Poland could have literally been saved from Nazi invasion if France and itself had agreed to start a war together against Nazi Germany, but they didn’t want to. By the logic of “invading Poland” being akin to Nazi collaboration, Poland was as imperialist as the Nazis.
As a Spaniard leftist it’s so infuriating when the Soviet Union, the ONLY country in 1936 which actively fought fascism in Europe by sending weapons, tanks and aviation to my homeland in the other side of the continent in the Spanish civil war against fascism, is accused of appeasing the fascists. The Soviets weren’t dumb, they knew the danger and threat of Nazism and worked for the entire decade of the 1930s under the Litvinov Doctrine of Collective Security to enter mutual defense agreements with England, France and Poland, which all refused because they were convinced that the Nazis would honor their own stated purpose of invading the communists in the East. The Soviets went as far as to offer ONE MILLION troops to France (Archive link against paywall) together with tanks, artillery and aviation in 1939 in exchange for a mutual defense agreement, which the French didn’t agree to because of the stated reason. Just from THIS evidence, the Soviets were by far the most antifascist country in Europe throughout the 1930s, you literally won’t find any other country doing any remotely similar efforts to fight Nazism. If you do, please provide evidence.
The invasion of “Poland” is also severely misconstrued. The Soviets didn’t invade what we think of nowadays when we say Poland. They invaded overwhelmingly Ukrainian, Belarusian and Lithuanian lands that Poland had previously invaded in 1919. Poland in 1938, a year before the invasion:
“Polish” territories invaded by the USSR in 1939:
The Soviets invaded famously Polish cities such as Lviv (sixth most populous city in modern Ukraine), Pinsk (important city in western Belarus) and Vilnius (capital of freaking modern Lithuania). They only invaded a small chunk of what you’d consider Poland nowadays, and the rest of lands were actually liberated from Polish occupation and returned to the Ukrainian, Belarusian and Lithuanian socialist republics. Hopefully you understand the importance of giving Ukrainians back their lands and sovereignty?
Additionally, the Soviets didn’t invade Poland together with the Nazis, they invaded a bit more than two weeks after the Nazi invasion, at a time when the Polish government had already exiled itself and there was no Polish administration. The meaning of this, is that all lands not occupied by Soviet troops, would have been occupied by Nazis. There was no alternative. Polish troops did not resist Soviet occupation but they did resist Nazi invasion. The Soviet occupation effectively protected millions of Slavic peoples like Poles, Ukrainians and Belarusians from the stated aim of Nazis of genociding the Slavic peoples all the way to the Urals.
All in all, my conclusion is: the Soviets were fully aware of the dangers of Nazism and fought against it earlier than anyone (Spanish civil war), spent the entire 30s pushing for an anti-Nazi mutual defence agreement which was refused by France, England and Poland, tried to honour the existing mutual defense agreement with Czechoslovakia which France rejected and Poland didn’t allow (Romania neither but they were fascists so that’s a given), and offered to send a million troops to France’s border with Germany to destroy Nazism but weren’t allowed to do so. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a tool of postponing the war in a period in which the USSR, a very young country with only 10 years of industrialization behind it since the first 5-year plan in 1929, was growing at a 10% GDP per year rate and needed every moment it could get. I can and do criticise decisions such as the invasion of Finland, but ultimately even the western leaders at the time seem to generally agree with my interpretation:
“In those days the Soviet Government had grave reason to fear that they would be left one-on-one to face the Nazi fury. Stalin took measures which no free democracy could regard otherwise than with distaste. Yet I never doubted myself that his cardinal aim had been to hold the German armies off from Russia for as long as might be” (Paraphrased from Churchill’s December 1944 remarks in the House of Commons.)
“It would be unwise to assume Stalin approves of Hitler’s aggression. Probably the Soviet Government has merely sought a delaying tactic, not wanting to be the next victim. They will have a rude awakening, but they think, at least for now, they can keep the wolf from the door” Franklin D. Roosevelt (President of the United States, 1933–1945), from Harold L. Ickes’s diary entries, early September 1939. Ickes’s diaries are published as The Secret Diary of Harold Ickes.
"One must suppose that the Soviet Government, seeing no immediate prospect of real support from outside, decided to make its own arrangements for self‑defence, however unpalatable such an agreement might appear. We in this House cannot be astonished that a government acting solely on grounds of power politics should take that course” Neville Chamberlain House of Commons Statement, August 24, 1939 (one day after pact’s signing)
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this
I love a wall of text as much as the next autist but im going to be a low effort in my response because I fucking hate having this conversation with tankies because its always so bad faith.
First of all I need to clear up that I dont think USSR sided with the Nazi’s because they supported Nazi ideology. I’m saying they dont get any credit for joining the war or fighting against hilter because they choose to side with him and support his war effort and only joined because they were backstabbed.
Ok so to sum up you’re point you’re saying that the USSR did the most to fight against nazi germany because they sold weapons to the anti facists in the spanish civil war and one of their westernized diplomats proposed a collective security agreement and they offered to send 1 million troops to france(this would never happen) and said they would support chzek despite having no land border. Then you give 4 paragraphs coping about soviet invasions. No mention of the
You’re ignoring historical context surrounding the USSR and then acting surprised at other countries reactions. I dont think any of what you’ve said really negates them signing an agreement with Hilter to divide up the east and provide support to Hitler’s war effort.
I’m the bad faithed one? You don’t engage with the fact that soviet-occupied “Poland” was actually Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania, reduce the 10 years of collective security proposals under the Litvinov doctrine to “an agreement that was never gonna happen anyway”, and you minimize the soviet war contributions in my own country against fascism 3 years before even WW2 started. You also completely ignore the fact that the English, French and Americans perfectly understood the Molotov Ribbentrop for what it was: buying time against Nazi invasion because they had been left alone by western Europe.
Answer this question: what would have happened to the “polish” territories invaded by the Soviets had it been the Nazis instead (only alternative possible). Then explain to me how that’s desirable.
You’re low effort in your response not because “I’m bad faith”, you’re low effort because you don’t have shit to say to historical evidence contradicting your western-sponsored anticommunism.
feels like brexit in that they will no longer have influence or discussion with their sworn enemies
they will just circle jerk on their marxist island
about the later’s Zionist Bar Problem
I’d prefer to have a less biased title for this thread because this is a very one-sided point of view and just parrots what the db0 admin claims without questioning them.
Edit: Thanks for putting it in quotation marks, OP.
Disappointing how many downvotes you have, especially given zero other responses thus far. You’ve got a valid point, and the mod/admin teams at db0 already have their own behavior issues, so there’s surely more to the story than this.
It’s a pretty emotional topic for a lot of people, so I’m not surprised. Still, I’d advise everyone who downvotes to at least take a look at what the other side has to say. This thread has a feddit.org mod comment on the situation:
I have downvoted. You are a zionist defending genocidal pedo murders and your opinion is disregarded. You do not deserve any reply but just to be bullied. Fascist cunt fuck.
Removed by mod
“We should be very careful lest we hurt the feelings of Zionists”
This all stems from a fundamental misunderstanding that no one seems to be interested in clearing up.
The original post that brought the allegations of feddit being zionist to more people is this one, and the one that originated the allegations is this one.
The feddit.org admin inside explicitly states that the removal of the comment being talked about by the original thread is not about pro-zionism or anti-semitism.
Now what does the person claim it is about? That seems to be majorly ignored. Let me rephrase it in my own words.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it. One of those rules is that no statement may be made that makes national socialism seem better than it was. So something you can’t say for example is “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!”. This seems extremely weird from an outside (the person saying it’s) perspective, because obviously, yes, the tactics Trump uses are directly borrowed from national socialism.
However, if you look at national socialism as a whole, it was much worse than just ICE. Millions were killed etc.
Now, the person who makes the statement “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!” is obviously using it to express that ICE is terrible. But if you want to look at it from a certain way (which German law likes to do) it’s also saying that they’re roughly equal, which, since Trump and ICE is currently not quite at the level of full national socialism, would minimize the severity of national socialism by bringing it “down” to the same level as the Trump regime and ICE.
Obviously, from a perspective of a person today, this seems ridiculous, because the current threat is ICE and not national socialism, so who cares about “how national socialism is talked about exactly”?! Isn’t it much more important to make sure that ICE is taken appropriately seriously? And you would of course be right. But the stance is that the ends do not justify the means, and it is very much possible to fight against ICE without comparing it to the whole of national socialism.
This is what is being talked about by the mods/admins. It has nothing to do with either anti-semitism or anti-zionism.
Now, if you say something like “Trump’s ICE resembles early national socialism!”, that is a completely fine statement to make in the eyes of the law. You are actually comparing ICE to what it actually is, “early [stages of] national socialism”, and not “national socialism [in general]”.
Feelings are running high, even as I type these words, I can imagine it. But please try to think about this stance for a moment and try to see that it is not Trump ICE apologist, or trying to minimize what ICE is doing. It is simply trying to pay heed to two important issues at the same time, of which one has much more immediacy and current real impact on people’s lives than the other.
I used this ICE example on purpose because it is even nearer than the genocide in Gaza. And because it is farther away from “full national socialism style genocide”. I hope I could make the thinking in this example clear, and I hope at least a modicum of rationality can be attributed to this.
And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany. And thus you could argue that comparing the situation in Gaza to national socialism is minimizing the severity of national socialism. And thus the same kind of argument applies as in the previous example with ICE, it just is even less understandable for a person who didn’t know/understand/agree with this argument.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it.
True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers. In their logic, abiding to the law in Germany is equivalent to following direct orders from the Gestapo. Maybe you just don’t want to get arrested and put in jail for running a niche community on the internet, but that’s not even an argument to them.
Some people in that db0 thread even suggested feddit.org should just shut down completely, which is ridiculous. Every country must’ve laws you don’t agree with, but you don’t run and hide because of that.
This “we vs. them” attitude is exactly what’s been criticized about MAGA all of the time, but doing it in this case is perfectly legitimate, somehow. I don’t know what kind of brain gymnastics you’ll have to do to come to a conclusion like this.
It’s just exhausting trying to talk to these people. I say let them shut down their community and hang out in their radicalized bubble. Good riddance.
There is no black and white in settler colonialism
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany.
As someone with a relative who died in a Nazi death camp, I resoundingly disagree. The scale may be relatively smaller, given that they’re attempting to steal a much smaller area of land for their Lebensraum, but the level of evil is the same.
Look into the story of Muhammed Bhar or Hind Rijab and tell me it’s not. I’ll tell you your soul is compromised.
what [Netenyahu’s Israel is] doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany.
Very difficult to say this for sure. Some of the acts we’ve seen are on the same level, frankly. And how could you possibly measure this, objectively?
I don’t think this can be argued meaningfully, and so should be removed from your argument.
As to the German law:
-
Is that applicable here on Lemmy?
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Is it up to the mods to interpret German law and apply it?
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the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany
Last I checked, the genocidal state of Israel is actually using weapons to vaporize Palestinians, thus leaving not even a trace of a war crime. Would you like to amend your statement?
If you rely on the German standard, you’d never be able to call a genocide a genocide until its fully executed.
Which obviously supports those committing the genocide.
“In Germany after National Socialism we have all been brainwashed to support genocide and Zioism and have to legally support our government sending weapons to a genocide because we like the previous one so much. Also we have a Gestapo which enforces this just like how we did in WW2”.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
Literally putting on the classic Nazi disclaimer
Can you explain why Germans have learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust?
I was against banning the communities, but the second link doesn’t feel like it deserved to be banned. Many examples brought up in the vote were comments that were looking for a fight, using aggressive language.
It’s also pretty telling that the vote was about banning access to communities, and after it finished, they banned the whole instance. I guess it is important to the community (or the folks that are paying to support the instance), that everyone is on the same page on this issue.
Removed by mod
Of course you may speak somewhat neutrally on National Socialism and even compare current politics to them. But you must be able to prove your point or show your work. Denial and making light based on “this is just my opinion, mate” is unacceptable.
Depending on the crime the burden of proof lies on the accused. This is fine.
ok.
This thread even 18 hrs later:
I didn’t notice c/europe was zionists. I just typed israel, I see highly (legitimately) upvoted posts against it.
I’m sure you can find some unsavory stuff, but I haven’t stumbled upon it once.
On the other hand I’ve been confronted to authoritarian bootlickers too many times from ml. If you don’t defederate from them too then you’re not being consistent.
I’ve noticed this too and have been following the conversation. However, I think self-isolation isn’t the answer. Allowing r/The_Donald to go private didn’t stop the far right.
What works is challenging these people, constantly. Mockery, abuse, whatever it takes. But building up echo-chambers, or allowing echo-chambers isn’t the solution.
its not really an echo chamber, lemmy unlike reddit is decentralised, so nothing is stopping a dbzero user from just making an account on feddit.org and interacting with them, in reddit if the admins decide to ban a community that community is just gone.
also having an echochambers isnt bad, like an instance like blahaj should be allowed to exist and not federate with instances that have a lax policy on transphobia, and thanks to lemmy’s decentralised nature you can join or make an instance that does have wide federation
Just because lemmy is decentralized doesn’t mean it doesn’t for echochambers. I mean look at ml. Or look at what squid did as a moderator to worldnews and political memes.
Echo chambers are absolutely a thing on lemmy. They exist at different scales (instance, sub, individual) but they absolutely exist.
Idk if it’s building echo chambers in this case or just wanting to get away from a toxic admin.
See the comments and actively of them before the vote and then as it was happening
Plenty have alleged that db0 admins are toxic. I don’t think that but plenty have. See the ptb sub.
People throw around all kinds of slanderous language all the time: it’s the internet, our accent is hyperbole. It’s fine.
The bigger issue that I see here is the cultural tendency to not want your viewpoint challenged, and that’s coming from both sides on this one. It’s also an issue on ml and hexbear; and those instances will throw the same accusations right back in the face of the broader fediverse, and not be wrong.
Every defederation hurts the fediverse, and substantially. The issues that came up in 23’ between .world and .ml, things like that destroy these kinds of projects. Defederation also doesn’t change the minds of those who are on feddit, and for the db0, and versus vice. If you think someone is wrong, you should tell them so, and you need to be able to tell them.
I think it’s the wrong move. I think defederation is always the wrong move. It’s more important to fight about important things than it is to be comfortable right now. If db0 users think feddit is a bunch of fascist Zionists, then get into the comments and call them out. Don’t just let them comfortably be Zionists while you ignore the problem. And the same applies to feddit. If they’ve got the right of it, take the fight and defend your points.
But defederation is a lazy and community damaging move, not just to db0, but to the entire project. Defederation is how Lemmy dies.
No. Having instances with varying approaches to defederation is good for the fediverse. Having no defederation is how you end up with nostr.
Hard disagree, and thats thoroughly evidenced by the usership and engagement numbers.
The numbers of fediverse users have more to do with onboarding, VC funding for marketing and the inherent nature of federation itself than it has to do with defederation policies
Social networks thrive because they are networks. De-federation collapses the network. Its not more complicated than that.
Less content, less interactions, less engagement.
It is more complicated than that. Vulnerable minorities don’t thrive in spaces where they’re endlessly playing whack a mole with bigots and trolls.
I didn’t leave Twitter for the fediverse because of its network. I left even before Musk, because Twitter was full of hate that the admins didn’t feel the need to action.
Your preference is just that… And as long as there is room for your preference on the fediverse without it being the only way to experience it, we can both have the experiences we want.
how do you explain hexbear’s growth?
If my instance didn’t defederate hexbear I wouldn’t be on the fediverse at all.
What makes it different from just blocking the instance at user-level?
Defederating also blocks the users on Lemmy. Instance blocking at the user level just blocks the communities in Lemmy, you have to block each user individually.
It makes it so I don’t have to individually block the myriad trolls that emanate from that cesspool. I was seriously a couple pig shit images from never opening this site again.
I was reading the original discussion on dbzer0 and kept wondering what the removed by mod was under every comment agreeing with either partial ban or defed, so I looked at the modlog. It was literally the same pigshit picture posted over and over again, almost twenty times, by the same user, though fortunately I only had to see it once, by choice.
That’s a serious personal commitment to assholery right there, and this is apparently just one of the people coming over to do this on dbzer0 comms. To be honest I can’t claim to understand some of the political nuance that was coming up in the thread, but that one dude sure did make a strong argument for defed via the modlog, lol. If that’s an example of what dbzer0 has to put up with from multiple individual users of another instance, then considering defederation is absolutely a legitimate discussion to have.
That appears to be a troll account from my instance that was created just to do that, but by that behavior they are almost certainly a hexbear. They’ll never change
I think defederation only really makes sense if there is a concern of botting. Individual bad actors should be banned on a case by case basis, blanket banning seems shortsighted. However, I do believe there are bots on some instances now, compared to say a year ago where I believe they were more far and few between.
Part of my issue is also with bad actors “flooding the zone”. If enough noise is getting pushed constantly by bad actors/bots, it can sway public opinion just by virtue of people seeing those opinions more often. This was one of the things that killed Reddit for me, personally. Well that and a slew of other issues.
I think defederation only really makes sense if there is a concern of botting. Individual bad actors should be banned on a case by case basis, blanket banning seems shortsighted. However, I do believe there are bots on some instances now, compared to say a year ago where I believe they were more far and few between.
This is what I agree with. Regardless, I think almost the entire thread would agree that the fediverse/ lemmy is not fully cooked when it comes to the issue of federation.
it is important for people to be able to build spaces that provide community for people who have perfectly legitimate reasons for not wanting certain things around.
unfortunately providing that functionality inherently provides the functionality to create echo chambers for arbitrary reasons
you cannot have one without the other and I’d rather have both than neither
Building an echo chamber isn’t something done intentionally. Well… Sometimes it is.
It’s most often created by avoiding people you find annoying, toxic, etc. As long as you keep up that reasoning you eventually only interact with people who mostly agree with you. You’re blinding yourself to counter opinions. The definition of an echo chamber.When avoiding ideas or being challenged yes. When avoiding abuse no
The former often feels like the later.
Even more so when you’re not used to it.
This is only the case if you’re annoyed by people disagreeing with you. That’s what makes echo chambers.
Feddit.org bans criticism of Israel. There is no point in a Zionist instance which does not allow debate on its own turf.
We tried they still defending the terrorist statr of Israel. It’s like debating neonazis it is useless
I mean, allowing echo chambers doesnt really seem avoidable on fedi tho? Like, only one side has to defederate to break two way communication, so if someone wants to avoid you, you cant really stop them, and the whole concept of moderation in a decentralized system relies on each instance being able to selectively view or block content from other instances based on the values of that instance. You cant really say “what works is challenging people” if the people you want to challenge have an “ignore” button for when you get too loud for their taste.
I mean it is. Look at .ml versus . world versus say… hexbear.
Banning, defederation,anything to de-voice people: it’s constantly being used to create local echo chambers. And it’s not like we don’t have a down vote button. We have a way to do “no” to content. But banning or defederation is saying “I don’t think you should be able to form an opinion on this content”. It’s very different.
And it’s not like we don’t have a down vote button.
I’ve been banned from communities merely for downvoting posts in them. Such behavior is toxic (on the part of the community’s mods, not me), but that doesn’t stop it from happening.
💯 . As a project we’ve got some governance things to figure out.
Maybe Im not saying this right: Im wasnt arguing for the virtues of echo chambers with that, Im saying, with how fedi is designed, there is no means to prevent someone that wants to make an echo chamber from doing so, so suggesting that one should not allow an echo chamber to exist is a fool’s errand. In a more general sense, it seems to me that, either you let people decide what kind of content to see, in which case many if not most will naturally create echo chambers simply because they dont want to see views too different from their own, or you have some means to force people to see stuff they dont want to, which requires some difficult-to-escape authority have power over their media feed and as such is incompatible with decentralized federation (and of course risks that authority pushing everyone into their echo chamber). Both of those things lead to serious issues in my view, so its a bit of a “pick your poison” situation when it comes to social media design. Beyond that though, it does have to be acknowledged that there is simply more content, more messages and people wanting to spread their word, out there than any given person has the time or attention or mental capacity to process. That means that some system must exist that determines what fraction of it all you actually see (even if its just as simple as “the things most recently posted on a given platform when you looked at it”). I can see no way to do this that doesnt introduce biases.
ah gotcha. Now I understand.
I agree in principal but not in part. I do think its possible to set up echo chambers in the fediverse, and while its not impossible to break out of them, its definitely not convenient.
I agree entirely that its a design/ conceptual issue. I’ve long argued that the fediverse in its current format is very clearly a “1.0” conception.
Interesting that finally there starts to be some reprecusions for the Germans being so pro genocide. I know it’s a very small gesture in a very nish social media but I’m happy about it neverthe less.
A simplified world view is really tempting sometimes. What if I told you that fighting anti semitism and being pro genocide are two things that can be distinguished from each other?
If you want to fight antisemitism, you should be fighting Israel. They’re the largest source of antisemitism worldwide by enacting a genocide in the name of Judaism.
Bro shut your fucking zionist mouth up. Nobody likes you and nobody gives a flying fuck about your excuses for the pedo genocidal murder country. Stuff your holes with wrustels and stfu.
Sorry, but this is not how you talk to people.
🤭 Oh no… here is the catch tho: who supports pedofilia, cannibalism, genocide, rape, murder to innocent people is a not a person.
At best you are a stupid incel brainwashed by your family to love some religious fanatics, at worst you are a low life demon sitting in tel aviv doing propaganda. I do not have respect for demons and I only have pity for kids and dogs.
You are just fucking revolting.
Sadly that seems to be upsetting some 😞
“By their actions you shall recognize them” and all that.
If it’s upsetting to someone they’re either a Zionist or a fascist. This thread has brought a lot of those horrible people out of the woodwork. It’s good we can easily see them for who they are now.
In those cases, no one being upset would probably show nothing was achieved.
This solidifies my decision for migrating my account from there to piefed.social. Not because I support those views but because this means that many of the communities I’m subscribed to won’t be visible anymore from there. Personally I’ve not seen the problem in the mentioned communities but I also don’t actively participate in deep political discussions especially regarding Israel/Palestine since I don’t have the energy for that.
You know you can just have multiple accounts on multiple instances, right? That gets you just about as full a view on the Fediverse as you might want. Heck, the only reason I’m not doing it is because I’m lazy.
Also, whining about db0 then moving to the instance that literally implements CCP politics and shadow profiling and comes from a dev known to have had a chip against heteronormativity and weirdness (if not against neurodivergence) is… not the win you think it is.
Yup that’s the way to go. Actually my first client I used for Lemmy (Liftoff) made multiple accounts really easy since you could switch feeds and accounts in one click and quickly. But even if you just use multiple accounts on the web switching between tabs or using Tesseract isn’t that difficult.
I know but I hate account jumping. I prefer to have everything in one place.
Oh that’s absolutely understandable. The more with how bloated interfaces tend to be these days.
Just mind, you have to consider what does it mean for your instance to be open enough to serve you everything in one account.
so which fediverse platform dev isn’t evil?
Heck if I know, but at least we know of the ones who are (eg.: feddit.org are “good German soldiers”).
Also, whining about db0 then moving to the instance that literally implements CCP politics and shadow profiling and comes from a dev known to have had a chip against heteronormativity and weirdness (if not against neurodivergence) is… not the win you think it is.
Can you provide some sources for that?
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Thank you. No wonder I haven’t seen stuff like this if it’s posted in meme communities.
It’s been on the public fediverse eye enough that I don’t need to do your homework for you, but just look for mentions to piefed in this same sub. One of the exemplary things that was found was that you can’t eg.: “upload a picture that contains the word ‘anonymous’” and that Piefed lies to you about why.
Okay great, you assume that everyone reads everything. I was just asking for examples because I haven’t seen any and figured you must have seen some and can link them.
Counterpoints:
- regarding “CCP politics and shadow profiling”, it’s referring to a few content filters that Piefed can do, but they are disabled by default and are all configurable: https://piefed.zip/c/fediverse/p/1005977/piefed-admin-settings-that-allow-to-enable-or-disable-content-filters-they-are-disabled-by#post_replies
- regarding “a chip against heteronormativity and weirdness”, https://piefed.blahaj.zone/ is using Piefed, which they probably wouldn’t do it the dev was a bigot. Also, pronouns are built-in the platform.
If you want to know a bit more about Rimu, the main Piefed dev, he made an interview a couple of months ago: https://tubefree.org/w/jLPZXv1Jynv7LRcuoteARf
He’s usually quite nice and helpful. That’s not always the case with people who try to spread disinformation about Piefed.
I have actually seen some influence agents pushing iran war and israel and such just lately. Usg must be expanding out to lemmy with their bs.
This solidifies my decision for migrating my account from there to piefed.social
but I also don’t actively participate in deep political discussions especially regarding Israel/Palestine
Showing your true colours here. By the way, it’s not “political discussions regarding Israel/Palestine”, call it by its name: genocide of Palestinians by Israel.
Yes the genocide of Palestinians is bad but I have only so much energy to care deeply about things in the world. I can’t change anything about what is happening there, it’s not in my power to do so.
Edit: And comments like yours are the reason why I usually abstain from participating in “political discussions”. It’s exhausting.
The point is to exhaust you down to the point you don’t fight back.
I can’t change anything about what is happening there, it’s not in my power to do so.
Are you boycotting Israeli goods, media, and anything else that could give money to the Zionist entity? That’s the bare minimum any person of conscience should do.
Yes, maybe that would do something but also as I said I can’t care about everything to the fullest degree or be informed about everything because no one has that energy. For example I could ask you the same regarding veganism and the vast majority of people won’t care about that (I care because every decision buying food, clothing and other things directly impacts the lives of animals for example).
I can’t care about everything to the fullest degree or be informed about everything because no one has that energy
I know people who work all the time and have energy. You have probably a mixture of privilege and exhaustion. We’re talking about scanning some barcodes so you can help avoid preventing fellow human beings, including children, from being massacred.
For example I could ask you the same regarding veganism
I am a vegan lol
I know people who work all the time and have energy. You have probably a mixture of privilege and exhaustion. We’re talking about scanning some barcodes so you can help avoid preventing fellow human beings, including children, from being massacred.
Am I privileged as a trans woman?
There are many easy things that add up and take up mental space and lead to exhaustion and empathy/compassion fatigue.
I am a vegan lol
You know what I mean. Vegans are the vast minority among people.
More privileged than a Palestinian, hell yeah. So it’s still your duty.
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lol so you join the place with the social credit score
What is that?
piefed.social keeps a hidden trust score that goes down when people do stuff the piefed dev personally doesn’t like. there was recently a bunch of drama about it
Technically, it’s an astrospam measure.
No they use something else for that, ie limit what new accounts can do.
The credit score is just doing things the dev doesn’t like/shouldn’t be done
https://join.piefed.social/2024/06/22/piefed-features-for-growing-healthy-communities/
There’s nothing in that post about ❝credit scores.❞ Karma is what threadiverse uses to evaluate posts, comments, communties, and accounts.
There is attitude and reputation
There is attitude and reputation
Jesus fuck.
It’s literally just a number admins can use to sus out if a user might potentially be a toll. It’s basically reddit karma but hidden from everyone but admins.
.ml users tried to make it a big deal because people were leaving lemmy for PieFed.
Reddit Karma is not good, I don’t want a Karma system on the Fediverse. That was one of the worst things about Reddit. Karma is essentially ass-kissing points, you get them for kissing ass, and you loose them for making people butt-hurt.
I can’t support that, it creates nasty psychological patterns that make people prone to siding with popularity and not with what’s right.
You dont have a karma system on the fediverse, only admins can see it.
Individuals dont know what their score is, there is no benefit to them trying to farm it because they cant see or use it. There is no psychological pattern formed because its an admin only tool.
This is the most overblown criticism of piefed around.
Then make it a clear, public figure. Make it transparent.
Why? It’s an admin tool.
Users overall don’t want karma farming accounts.
Oooh the irony!
Such a stupid move…
Dang and I just made this account too. Time to find a new instance… Any recommendations? How is lemmy.today?
This whole process has looked sus to me. And on top of that, I don’t think voting by up/downvoting the post itself is a good way to call votes — it means a minority can pass a rule without it being even seen by the majority (not sure that matters in this case). Voting should be done in a top-level comment.
Did you not read the rules for joining DB0 before you joined. They clearly state a full anti-zionist stance right there.
eyeroll yes. Do you think I support zionism?
No? I hope not, or joining DB0 would be a completely strange action. But you seem to think that their explicit rules on Zionism would not mean that they would act on a zionist-bar-like instance.
- it means a minority can pass a rule without it being even seen by the majority
Why do you think that?
I think I wasnt thinking clearly. sticked posts it doesn’t matter what the up/downvote ratio is, its still gets pushed to all. COrrect?
Yes
People might not see the stickied post, for whatever reason. I’m mostly on X hours top, which hides the thread if older than X hours. Or someone could just not use Lemmy for a week. There is no notification or similar, no email alert.
I would argue that this would be the minority of users, not the majority.
Are there stats for how much voting eligible users there are, and how much of them actually vote on governance topics, or see (click on) governance topics?
No
The vote was literally pinned instance-wide for a week and it passed with an overwhelming absolute majority, with a majority of comments (of various active and established users) calling for a defed instead of just community bans
or go to piefed
You can come to feddit.org, we have mostly normal people instead of armchair internet warriors lol
True! discuss.tchncs.de is also pretty nice. We have a few more communities that feddit has defederated (for good reason, though, not everyone wants pr0n in their main feed :D).
Idk, the process looked fine to me. I can’t say I agree with the arguments and the outcome, but it never looked like a bad process.
Up-/Downvotes on a pinned post doesn’t change visibility for instance users.
Any recommendations?
Seeing your political inclinations you may wanna check out nazis.love, zionism.supporters, and netanyahu.net
You people are worse than reddit
Oh, yeah, “They removed my comment where I’m just an asshole and telling people to kill themselves, they are such zionists 😭”
The fuck is wrong with you guys?
